This build is a multiclass between a Rogue X and wizard 2 taking the conjuration subclass. All my examples will be at 3rd level. This is also assuming you have a certain backstory reason to have seen purple worm poison before.
Could you use minor conjuration to create purple worm poison? apply it to two short swords. Then attack with the two short swords dealing a whopping 2 + 12d6 + 12d6 + 2d6 + 1d6! (with sneak attack) Is there any rule against this? Is there any way to enhance this more? Thanks!
Also it has to be an object you have seen. Not a lot of low level characters will have seen purple worm poison. And it disappears when you do it again, so you definitely couldn’t do it twice.
This is also assuming you have a certain backstory reason to have seen purple worm poison before.
I don't see a good reason that a level 3 character could have seen the rarest and most expensive known poison. If I thought a player had written this into their backstory for this kind of reason, I'd just rule that what they thought had been Purple Worm Poison had, in fact, been basic contact poison instead.
Minor conjugation is a poorly worded mess that people keep trying to take advantage of to make overpowered.
There is this line in the ability:
The object disappears after 1 hour, when you use this feature again, or if it takes or deals any damage.
It is not supposed to do damage. But did I mention it is poorly worded?
It only disappears if it deal damage. It is intended that you can damage enemies with it, but that it will disappear after it has done so. For example, I can create a dagger, stab somebody with it and then the dagger will disappear. It would need to say "if it would deal damage" in order to prevent it from dealing damage at all.
However, the wording does specify that it must be an inanimate object.
For me, an object is something solid. You can summon a glass bottle that could contain Purple Worm Poison if you've seen one, but it will not contain any Purple Worm Poison, any more than you could summon a cube of water, since water would not meet the criteria of being an inanimate object. Similarly, you cannot summon a flask of lava, only the flask.
Yeah, there is also a community consensus that liquids don't count as objects because they don't follow the same laws of physics. Plus, if you snap a conjured twig in 2, it took damage. Being able to separate your 1 conjured object into several pieces (like by pouring or dipping weapons) shouldn't be possible.
google says: Object - something perceptible by one or more of the senses, especially by vision or touch; a material thing.
Liquids should 100% count as objects. Old glass flowed, just like water... it just took a really long time to notice; decades or centuries. Water and other Newtonian fluids follow the same basic physics that lumber, paper, rock, leather, fur, etc all follow. There are non-Newtonian fluids that seem to operate against the laws of basic physics.
So, an object is a flask full of poison. just because the poison is an object and the flask is an object, doesn't preclude both together from being an object. If an object isn't made of multiple parts, then the only thing you could conjure is pure elements because everything else at the molecular level is a machine.
Yeah, I don't get the assertion that inanimate matter needs to be solid to be an object. Even then, all liquids have a freezing point so just create the frozen version and thaw it out.
They should just errata it to have a gp value like the Creation bard, since gp is really just another tool to gate power by level.
Yeah, there's no such consensus, though it would be an okay-ish ruling. You'd probably be safer against a hostile DM conjuring a poison that applies a powerful effect but no damage, but I don't see any reason a DM should generally go out of their way to discourage a Wizard 2 multiclass character who's built to use Poisoner to great effect, poison is a very under-utilized player tool because it's so hard/expensive to use.
you 100% can conjure liquids. They count as an object. Inanimate is based on the ability to move on its own (hence ANIMATE object spell). There is even Sage advice compendium concerning conjuring an item with multiparts. It concerns a book but still references multipart and Jeremy Crawford himself talks about a multipart object summon in an example of a skateboard (IF it had been seen).
Also in reference to the item being damaged for state of disappearance. (2nd info source)
Being able to conjure a multipart object easily (3rd info source)
Can Minor Conjuration create a copy of a book, complete with all its text, if the wizard hasn’t seen all the text?
No. In the case of a multipart object, the intent is that you must have seen all parts of the object to duplicate those parts. In the case of a book, if you have seen only the cover, then the duplicate created will be a copy of the cover, and the pages will be blank. (Minor Conjuration)
Also all the conjured items from Minor Conjuration do not have a gp value so they can not be used for material components for spells (Jeremy Crawford's statement concerning this on a RAI portion at least). In addition his weigh in on damage is that he dictates it being damage as far as HP is concerned. If the dm has HP damage inflicted then it counts as damage. If not then probably not.
Royal, the issue with "damage" and poison is... If the poison does special damage when first applied, but has an ongoing effect for a duration, would you have the conjured poison "disappear" after the initial application damage? Would that end the ongoing effect, or is the poison's effect on a hit/failed save an effect that's distinct from the physical existence of poison remaining in the body? There's room for a hostile DM to screw you, letting you apply the first damage from something like Burnt Othur Fumes but then immediately ending the ongoing effect.
Poison that just does damage once (like Purpose Worm Poison) is fine, who cares if it vanishes after it delivers its 12d6. Poison that just imposes a condition (like Torpor) is fine, it doesn't deal any damage to cause it to vanish. But poisons that deal damage over time ( Burnt Othur Fumes), or damage + a condition ( Assassin's Blood), are potentially vulnerable to vanishing.
Royal, the issue with "damage" and poison is... If the poison does special damage when first applied, but has an ongoing effect for a duration, would you have the conjured poison "disappear" after the initial application damage? Would that end the ongoing effect, or is the poison's effect on a hit/failed save an effect that's distinct from the physical existence of poison remaining in the body? There's room for a hostile DM to screw you, letting you apply the first damage from something like Burnt Othur Fumes but then immediately ending the ongoing effect.
Poison that just does damage once (like Purpose Worm Poison) is fine, who cares if it vanishes after it delivers its 12d6. Poison that just imposes a condition (like Torpor) is fine, it doesn't deal any damage to cause it to vanish. But poisons that deal damage over time ( Burnt Othur Fumes), or damage + a condition ( Assassin's Blood), are potentially vulnerable to vanishing.
Oh totally! I agree with that, and think that'd be 100% agreeable to me for a dm to say you get the initial then poof no others. Also like on an alchemist fire. I could see getting that initial d4 then it disappeared. I think that one fits the restraint fine. The other items that would be wicked exciting would be a healing kit, ryath root (temp hp), and a few other roots i cant remember right now but they give like an hour of help on different things.
Can you link to any of those items? There was a thread on this before where I wasn't sure if there are any "helpful" nonmagical items that a player could try to conjure and consume themselves, other than poison to apply to someone else. I don't think that the classification of equipment vs. magic item on dndbeyond is really the controlling factor, it's probably what that item's description is, and whether that creates enough context for the DM to decide if it's creating a mundane or magical effect.
Could you use minor conjuration to create purple worm poison? apply it to two short swords. Then attack with the two short swords dealing a whopping 2 + 12d6 + 12d6 + 2d6 + 1d6! (with sneak attack) Is there any rule against this? Is there any way to enhance this more? Thanks!
Ignoring the question of whether it can do damage, you could only create one dose at a time, because it only creates one object and splitting an object apart (or other permanent deformation) is damaging it.
Would a container and its contents be two items? A skateboard, as per the Crawford example, is a discrete item of parts. I would say a container and its contents are separate items. Hence, if you conjured purple worm poison it would just be a puddle on the ground or in your hand. The former being impractical, the latter causing damaging and not being useful. Just my two cents
I can give a list, but idk how to link unfortunately.
Ryath Root(temp hp), Antitoxin(adv on poison saves 1hr), blight ichor (int and wis saves with vuln to psychic and other possible issues),dreamlily(poisons you but gives fear immunity and death ward effect 1hr),healers kit, bullseye lantern, muroosa balm (fire res 1hr), olisuba leaf(reduces exhaustion by 2 instead of 1 on long rest), tangler grenade (mini web and my favorite) theki root (basically antitoxin), truth serum (zone of truth basically), shatterstick (building destruction).
Sorry idk how to link these, and also just the brief overview on them (not even a full cover with some needing saving throws if you take them or take them to much). I hope it helped either way though to give an idea.
I tried to link the Ryath Root but it isnt showing up for some reason. It is from Tomb of Annihilation though. Also with the Shatterstick its from decent into avernus
Thanks again for showing me how to do that Chicken_Champ
This build is a multiclass between a Rogue X and wizard 2 taking the conjuration subclass. All my examples will be at 3rd level. This is also assuming you have a certain backstory reason to have seen purple worm poison before.
Could you use minor conjuration to create purple worm poison? apply it to two short swords. Then attack with the two short swords dealing a whopping 2 + 12d6 + 12d6 + 2d6 + 1d6! (with sneak attack) Is there any rule against this? Is there any way to enhance this more? Thanks!
When players get creative.
Minor conjugation is a poorly worded mess that people keep trying to take advantage of to make overpowered.
There is this line in the ability:
It is not supposed to do damage. But did I mention it is poorly worded?
Sorry! I guess I forgot about that part. Though if you went by RAW would it deal damage once then disappear or just not deal damage at all?
When players get creative.
IDK. It is up for (DM) interpretation. It is RAI that it not do damage, I think most DMs would go with that.
Also it has to be an object you have seen. Not a lot of low level characters will have seen purple worm poison.
And it disappears when you do it again, so you definitely couldn’t do it twice.
I don't see a good reason that a level 3 character could have seen the rarest and most expensive known poison. If I thought a player had written this into their backstory for this kind of reason, I'd just rule that what they thought had been Purple Worm Poison had, in fact, been basic contact poison instead.
It only disappears if it deal damage. It is intended that you can damage enemies with it, but that it will disappear after it has done so. For example, I can create a dagger, stab somebody with it and then the dagger will disappear. It would need to say "if it would deal damage" in order to prevent it from dealing damage at all.
However, the wording does specify that it must be an inanimate object.
For me, an object is something solid. You can summon a glass bottle that could contain Purple Worm Poison if you've seen one, but it will not contain any Purple Worm Poison, any more than you could summon a cube of water, since water would not meet the criteria of being an inanimate object. Similarly, you cannot summon a flask of lava, only the flask.
Yeah, there is also a community consensus that liquids don't count as objects because they don't follow the same laws of physics. Plus, if you snap a conjured twig in 2, it took damage. Being able to separate your 1 conjured object into several pieces (like by pouring or dipping weapons) shouldn't be possible.
google says: Object - something perceptible by one or more of the senses, especially by vision or touch; a material thing.
Liquids should 100% count as objects. Old glass flowed, just like water... it just took a really long time to notice; decades or centuries. Water and other Newtonian fluids follow the same basic physics that lumber, paper, rock, leather, fur, etc all follow. There are non-Newtonian fluids that seem to operate against the laws of basic physics.
So, an object is a flask full of poison. just because the poison is an object and the flask is an object, doesn't preclude both together from being an object. If an object isn't made of multiple parts, then the only thing you could conjure is pure elements because everything else at the molecular level is a machine.
Yeah, I don't get the assertion that inanimate matter needs to be solid to be an object. Even then, all liquids have a freezing point so just create the frozen version and thaw it out.
They should just errata it to have a gp value like the Creation bard, since gp is really just another tool to gate power by level.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah, there's no such consensus, though it would be an okay-ish ruling. You'd probably be safer against a hostile DM conjuring a poison that applies a powerful effect but no damage, but I don't see any reason a DM should generally go out of their way to discourage a Wizard 2 multiclass character who's built to use Poisoner to great effect, poison is a very under-utilized player tool because it's so hard/expensive to use.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
you 100% can conjure liquids. They count as an object. Inanimate is based on the ability to move on its own (hence ANIMATE object spell). There is even Sage advice compendium concerning conjuring an item with multiparts. It concerns a book but still references multipart and Jeremy Crawford himself talks about a multipart object summon in an example of a skateboard (IF it had been seen).
Also in reference to the item being damaged for state of disappearance. (2nd info source)
Being able to conjure a multipart object easily (3rd info source)
Can Minor Conjuration create a copy of a book, complete with all its text, if the wizard hasn’t seen all the text?
No. In the case of a multipart object, the intent is that you must have seen all parts of the object to duplicate those parts. In the case of a book, if you have seen only the cover, then the duplicate created will be a copy of the cover, and the pages will be blank. (Minor Conjuration)
https://www.sageadvice.eu/minor-conjuration-errata-means-that-you-can-no-longer-use-conjured-tools-that-damage-materials/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/skateboard-as-minor-conjuration-in-eberron/
Also all the conjured items from Minor Conjuration do not have a gp value so they can not be used for material components for spells (Jeremy Crawford's statement concerning this on a RAI portion at least). In addition his weigh in on damage is that he dictates it being damage as far as HP is concerned. If the dm has HP damage inflicted then it counts as damage. If not then probably not.
Royal, the issue with "damage" and poison is... If the poison does special damage when first applied, but has an ongoing effect for a duration, would you have the conjured poison "disappear" after the initial application damage? Would that end the ongoing effect, or is the poison's effect on a hit/failed save an effect that's distinct from the physical existence of poison remaining in the body? There's room for a hostile DM to screw you, letting you apply the first damage from something like Burnt Othur Fumes but then immediately ending the ongoing effect.
Poison that just does damage once (like Purpose Worm Poison) is fine, who cares if it vanishes after it delivers its 12d6. Poison that just imposes a condition (like Torpor) is fine, it doesn't deal any damage to cause it to vanish. But poisons that deal damage over time ( Burnt Othur Fumes), or damage + a condition ( Assassin's Blood), are potentially vulnerable to vanishing.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Oh totally! I agree with that, and think that'd be 100% agreeable to me for a dm to say you get the initial then poof no others. Also like on an alchemist fire. I could see getting that initial d4 then it disappeared. I think that one fits the restraint fine. The other items that would be wicked exciting would be a healing kit, ryath root (temp hp), and a few other roots i cant remember right now but they give like an hour of help on different things.
Can you link to any of those items? There was a thread on this before where I wasn't sure if there are any "helpful" nonmagical items that a player could try to conjure and consume themselves, other than poison to apply to someone else. I don't think that the classification of equipment vs. magic item on dndbeyond is really the controlling factor, it's probably what that item's description is, and whether that creates enough context for the DM to decide if it's creating a mundane or magical effect.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ignoring the question of whether it can do damage, you could only create one dose at a time, because it only creates one object and splitting an object apart (or other permanent deformation) is damaging it.
Would a container and its contents be two items? A skateboard, as per the Crawford example, is a discrete item of parts. I would say a container and its contents are separate items. Hence, if you conjured purple worm poison it would just be a puddle on the ground or in your hand. The former being impractical, the latter causing damaging and not being useful. Just my two cents
I can give a list, but idk how to link unfortunately.
Ryath Root(temp hp), Antitoxin(adv on poison saves 1hr), blight ichor (int and wis saves with vuln to psychic and other possible issues),dreamlily(poisons you but gives fear immunity and death ward effect 1hr),healers kit, bullseye lantern, muroosa balm (fire res 1hr), olisuba leaf(reduces exhaustion by 2 instead of 1 on long rest), tangler grenade (mini web and my favorite) theki root (basically antitoxin), truth serum (zone of truth basically), shatterstick (building destruction).
Sorry idk how to link these, and also just the brief overview on them (not even a full cover with some needing saving throws if you take them or take them to much). I hope it helped either way though to give an idea.
Interesting! I bet many of those are Eberron or Exandria or Ravnica weirdness, I’ll have to look them up…
And if you want to learn how to use forum tags, check out the link in my signature :)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
[Tooltip Not Found] , Blight Ichor testing this . If I can get this right then Ill try to update the item list.
Shatterstick, Antitoxin , Blood of the Lycanthrope (Injury) (this is a VERY hazy one), Bomb , Crawler Mucus (Contact) , Dreamlily , Dynamite (Stick) , Essence of Ether (Inhaled) , Explosive Seed , Grenade, Fragmentation , Healer's Kit , Malice (Inhaled) , Muroosa Balm , Oil of Taggit (Contact) , Olisuba Leaf , Tangler Grenade , Theki Root , Thessaltoxin (Ingested or Injury) (also a very hazy item to call out), Torpor (Ingested) , Truth Serum (Ingested)
I tried to link the Ryath Root but it isnt showing up for some reason. It is from Tomb of Annihilation though. Also with the Shatterstick its from decent into avernus
Thanks again for showing me how to do that Chicken_Champ