I am trying to decide which combat maneuver to choose for my DEX-based, ranged attack focused Ranger [with no spells variant], Distracting Strike or Trip Attack. I can't choose both (I won't yet mention the other CM that I am definitely taking, in order to focus the discussion).
Assuming a hit, Distracting Strike automatically grants the next attacker advantage against the target, with no saving throw. Trip attack, on the other hand, will grant advantage to every attack on that target until its turn. However, Trip Attack includes a target STR saving throw (and a lot of monsters have a STR save). So, do I go with an increased chance that one ally will have advantage against the target, or do I shoot for a slightly lower chance of gaining advantage (due to the STR save opportunity) on a greater number of attacks (it's a six person party).
Without revealing the current front-runner, which of these two CMs do you think that I should choose and why?
Since you're a ranged attacker, don't forget that Prone actually imposes disadvantage for ranged attacks, so you won't want to use it if you have followup attacks to make against the target. It also doesn't work at all on Huge enemies. On the other hand, Prone is really good against flying targets, a fact of which melee combatants tend not to be able to take advantage.
Trip Attack is bread-and-butter for melee Fighters who can smash it themselves - Trip on first attack, then Action Surge and take 3 more swings with advantage on all of them. Any attacks your comrades make are then gravy.
Also note that Prone is profoundly weaker if the target goes soon after you, since the target only has to expend half its movement to stand up. Distracting Strike is mostly useful to set up a Rogue or Paladin to do one really good swing. Thus each is fairly dependent on where you fall in the turn order relative to everyone else.
Given that there is no saving throw and it's more useful generally, I'd go with Distracting Strike in your case, but I don't think there's a wrong answer either. It might depend on whether your other choice clashes with usage - for example, if you were taking Pushing Attack, then taking Trip Attack would mean neither ability would work on a Huge creature.
Advantage is one of those things that could mean a lot, or could be meaningless. Maybe they would have rolled well anyway. Maybe they will roll poorly despite advantage. Maybe the next person to attack will hit, but not roll well on damage, or not use a particularly optimum attack. It's hard to picture the table scenario where "Distracting Strike, that'll turn this combat around!" will pop up. Like sure, advantage will set up a Rogue's sneak attack! But... if you have a Rogue in your party, he probably has a pretty good plan about how he plans to consistently be setting up sneak attacks?
Prone though, does everything that Distracting Strike does (granted, in some different situations, with some trade offs)... but also more! Prone can knock a flying character out of the sky, which may be a hard counter to a problem the party is having. Prone will cut a target's speed in half on their next round, which may be a hard counter to a threat the party is having, or save a squishy team member in risk of being chased down, or let you catch up with someone who is running away. If there's a fighter handy to grapple the target after he's prone, inflicting prone could be giving the party advantage (and that enemy disadvantage) on attacks for the rest of the combat (except for you, poor ranged guy).
I'm not going to say that there aren't scenarios where Distracting Strike doesn't more reliably hand out advantage for ONE attack from ONE of your allies, such as against a high strength enemy. But I will say that advantage on ONE attack by ONE ally is almost never going to be a combat-altering event, while knocking someone prone from 600 feet away could very well be the blow that single handedly undoes everything the DM had planned. Sure, you can fail at it, they can pass their check and stay standing... but at least it had a chance of doing something cool/useful, instead of just being a glorified help action.
You both make strong arguments. I hadn't considered flying targets or enemy movement vis-a-vis a pursuing or fleeing enemy, so thanks for that. At this point, I think I'm leaning towards Trip Attack.
The other CM I'm taking is Goading Attack. Assuming that my archer is engaging the enemy at range, with allies between shooter and target, a hit should act as a defensive buff for allies (since the target attacks everyone other than the shooter with disadvantage). Also, fewer monsters that prefer to close to melee range have particularly high WIS, so the saving throw is less of a detractor.
In the same vein, by and large Menacing Attack does everything that Goading Attack does, plus acts as a hard counter to movement in certain directions. Goading Attack provides disadvantage on all attacks except against you, for a Will Save. Menacing Attack is also a will save, and assuming you're standing somewhere near your allies, or at least in the same direction as them from the enemy, imposes disadvantage on all attacks against your party and you, and they can't willingly move any closer to you. Unless your enemy is immune to Fear (not completely uncommon), Menacing Attack will 90% of the time be a better choice.
Thanks for the suggestion, Chicken_Champ! For some reason, I thought that a Frightened enemy moved away from the source of the "fear" (I kind of confused with the effect of the Fear spell with the Frightened condition), and there are many tactical circumstances where you don't want enemies retreating from the party. However, as you pointed out, "can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear" is not the same thing as moving away from the source. Menacing Attack, therefore, is definitely a stronger option to achieve the tactical boost I'm looking for.
So, I think I'll be switching from Distracting Strike & Goading Attack -> Tripping Attack & Menacing Attack.
It's worth noting, especially in the case of fear/Menacing Shot, that in a number of cases the things you will most want to debuff will be immune to the overriding condition. Imposing disadvantage on the attacks of a regular-ass orc dude is all well and good; imposing disadvantage on the attacks of an Iron Golem is actually why you're taking the maneuver.
Prone is powerful enough to warrant taking Trip over Distracting even with the various prone-immune critters out there. I'm not entirely certain the same could be said for Goading vs. Menacing; in my eyes at least, both tend to have their place.
Good points, Yurei1453. I should have considered condition immunities. I'll have to thumb through the MM and see how common immunity to being frightened is.
I get to select another Combat Maneuver at Ranger lvl 5. Assuming that I go ahead and take Tripping Attack and Menacing Attack at lvl 2, what additional CM do y'all recommend I take at 5th? (Remember, the character is primarily a ranged fighting Ranger [with no spells variant]).
I think it's worth noting that for a Battlemaster, you get lots of Maneuvers, and never any less than three... so with the discussion being around what two they will pick, I'm kind of assuming that Sage is actually picking these up through Martial Adept. Assuming that's the case, they have one maneuver per short rest (essentially, no more than one per encounter, but possibly only one per day). I think it's pretty likely that once per encounter, or at least once per day, you will find a very attractive target to either knock prone or frighten. Will you encounter one enemy per combat, or at least one per day, that is immune to Fear and that you wouldn't rather Trip than impose disadvantage on one round of its attacks? Maybe, maybe not?
It's hard to speak in absolutes about combat maneuvers. Of course they all have a place where they shine, which is why it's great that the Battlemaster gets so many to pick from. But if you're taking Martial Adept on its own, you need to think about it more like "I'm picking up the ability to do an "A" or "B" wow move once per combat, so what two cool abilities will cover the most different scenarios, and stand out the most when used?"
If we are instead talking about Battlemaster (and from the perspective of ranged Battlemaster in particular), then obviously you flesh out more of a complete toolkit, anticipating that you can do tricks 4-5 times per combat (or per day, if your DM hates short rests). I'd recommend:
If you don't have Push, get Push. For a distance poker especially, being able to move any character within potentially six hundred feet of you up to fifteen feet away with just a Strength save is of incredible value.
Knock people off walls!
Knock enemies away from your team, letting a squishy caster retreat without suffering an AoO!
Knock critters into terrain hazards!
Knock your own allies out of terrain hazards - what would the cleric rather take? Damage from one arrow, or damage from the Wall of Fire that fiend just dropped on his head?
Get Disarm later, then knock a critter you've Disarmed fifteen feet away from his weapon!
Get Pushing Attack! It's really good! You should have it!
Hm. I'd kind of written off Pushing Attack but those are some neat tactical applications so I will definitely reconsider.
I'm sorry that I didn't mention it earlier, Chicken_Champ, but the OP question is for a Ranger [with no magic variant from UA]. He receives two CMs at level two (instead of spells) and another at 5. I'm running another thread about said character and unconsciously mixed up where I'd given/requested info regarding the build. In case any of you are interested, here's the other thread:
I really like Pushing Attack, but it does require specific terrain (cliffs or other hazards) or a specific situation (party wants an enemy pushed away, which isn't usually the case unless a squishy got caught), while advantage on attacks (prone) or disadvantage on enemy attacks and restricted movement (fear) are always relevant in every combat. That leaves it head to head with Precision Attack for me... and don't get me wrong, Precision Attack is boring. But assuming you're taking Sharpshooter at 4, Precision Attack is going to come up for a 15-20 damage swing almost every combat, while Pushing Attack may not. So Push always ends up getting pushed (ha!) back to level 7 for me.
Precision Attack is definitely a contender, but I'm planning on taking the attribute bumps (+1 to attacks, checks, saving throws) instead of a Feat at lvl 4. The attribute increase just seems more useful across the board.
Menacing Attack is also a will save, and assuming you're standing somewhere near your allies, or at least in the same direction as them from the enemy, imposes disadvantage on all attacks against your partyand you, and they can't willingly move any closer to you.
Does it, though? In looking at the description, it says, "frightened of you". Does that mean only frightened of the character that hit the creature with Menacing Attack, or frightened of the entire party? If it's the former, then the only advantage MA has over GA is the restriction on movement towards the character.
I should have looked up the Frightened Condition before asking that last question. It clearly states, "A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight." So, as long as the creature can see my Ranger, it will have disadvantage on attacks against other characters as well.
I should have looked up the Frightened Condition before asking that last question. It clearly states, "A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight." So, as long as the creature can see my Ranger, it will have disadvantage on attacks against other characters as well.
I am trying to decide which combat maneuver to choose for my DEX-based, ranged attack focused Ranger [with no spells variant], Distracting Strike or Trip Attack. I can't choose both (I won't yet mention the other CM that I am definitely taking, in order to focus the discussion).
Assuming a hit, Distracting Strike automatically grants the next attacker advantage against the target, with no saving throw. Trip attack, on the other hand, will grant advantage to every attack on that target until its turn. However, Trip Attack includes a target STR saving throw (and a lot of monsters have a STR save). So, do I go with an increased chance that one ally will have advantage against the target, or do I shoot for a slightly lower chance of gaining advantage (due to the STR save opportunity) on a greater number of attacks (it's a six person party).
Without revealing the current front-runner, which of these two CMs do you think that I should choose and why?
Thanks in advance.
Since you're a ranged attacker, don't forget that Prone actually imposes disadvantage for ranged attacks, so you won't want to use it if you have followup attacks to make against the target. It also doesn't work at all on Huge enemies. On the other hand, Prone is really good against flying targets, a fact of which melee combatants tend not to be able to take advantage.
Trip Attack is bread-and-butter for melee Fighters who can smash it themselves - Trip on first attack, then Action Surge and take 3 more swings with advantage on all of them. Any attacks your comrades make are then gravy.
Also note that Prone is profoundly weaker if the target goes soon after you, since the target only has to expend half its movement to stand up. Distracting Strike is mostly useful to set up a Rogue or Paladin to do one really good swing. Thus each is fairly dependent on where you fall in the turn order relative to everyone else.
Given that there is no saving throw and it's more useful generally, I'd go with Distracting Strike in your case, but I don't think there's a wrong answer either. It might depend on whether your other choice clashes with usage - for example, if you were taking Pushing Attack, then taking Trip Attack would mean neither ability would work on a Huge creature.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Advantage is one of those things that could mean a lot, or could be meaningless. Maybe they would have rolled well anyway. Maybe they will roll poorly despite advantage. Maybe the next person to attack will hit, but not roll well on damage, or not use a particularly optimum attack. It's hard to picture the table scenario where "Distracting Strike, that'll turn this combat around!" will pop up. Like sure, advantage will set up a Rogue's sneak attack! But... if you have a Rogue in your party, he probably has a pretty good plan about how he plans to consistently be setting up sneak attacks?
Prone though, does everything that Distracting Strike does (granted, in some different situations, with some trade offs)... but also more! Prone can knock a flying character out of the sky, which may be a hard counter to a problem the party is having. Prone will cut a target's speed in half on their next round, which may be a hard counter to a threat the party is having, or save a squishy team member in risk of being chased down, or let you catch up with someone who is running away. If there's a fighter handy to grapple the target after he's prone, inflicting prone could be giving the party advantage (and that enemy disadvantage) on attacks for the rest of the combat (except for you, poor ranged guy).
I'm not going to say that there aren't scenarios where Distracting Strike doesn't more reliably hand out advantage for ONE attack from ONE of your allies, such as against a high strength enemy. But I will say that advantage on ONE attack by ONE ally is almost never going to be a combat-altering event, while knocking someone prone from 600 feet away could very well be the blow that single handedly undoes everything the DM had planned. Sure, you can fail at it, they can pass their check and stay standing... but at least it had a chance of doing something cool/useful, instead of just being a glorified help action.
Also, it's just cooler.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You both make strong arguments. I hadn't considered flying targets or enemy movement vis-a-vis a pursuing or fleeing enemy, so thanks for that. At this point, I think I'm leaning towards Trip Attack.
The other CM I'm taking is Goading Attack. Assuming that my archer is engaging the enemy at range, with allies between shooter and target, a hit should act as a defensive buff for allies (since the target attacks everyone other than the shooter with disadvantage). Also, fewer monsters that prefer to close to melee range have particularly high WIS, so the saving throw is less of a detractor.
In the same vein, by and large Menacing Attack does everything that Goading Attack does, plus acts as a hard counter to movement in certain directions. Goading Attack provides disadvantage on all attacks except against you, for a Will Save. Menacing Attack is also a will save, and assuming you're standing somewhere near your allies, or at least in the same direction as them from the enemy, imposes disadvantage on all attacks against your party and you, and they can't willingly move any closer to you. Unless your enemy is immune to Fear (not completely uncommon), Menacing Attack will 90% of the time be a better choice.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thanks for the suggestion, Chicken_Champ! For some reason, I thought that a Frightened enemy moved away from the source of the "fear" (I kind of confused with the effect of the Fear spell with the Frightened condition), and there are many tactical circumstances where you don't want enemies retreating from the party. However, as you pointed out, "can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear" is not the same thing as moving away from the source. Menacing Attack, therefore, is definitely a stronger option to achieve the tactical boost I'm looking for.
So, I think I'll be switching from Distracting Strike & Goading Attack -> Tripping Attack & Menacing Attack.
Thanks again for the help, folks!
It's worth noting, especially in the case of fear/Menacing Shot, that in a number of cases the things you will most want to debuff will be immune to the overriding condition. Imposing disadvantage on the attacks of a regular-ass orc dude is all well and good; imposing disadvantage on the attacks of an Iron Golem is actually why you're taking the maneuver.
Prone is powerful enough to warrant taking Trip over Distracting even with the various prone-immune critters out there. I'm not entirely certain the same could be said for Goading vs. Menacing; in my eyes at least, both tend to have their place.
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Good points, Yurei1453. I should have considered condition immunities. I'll have to thumb through the MM and see how common immunity to being frightened is.
I get to select another Combat Maneuver at Ranger lvl 5. Assuming that I go ahead and take Tripping Attack and Menacing Attack at lvl 2, what additional CM do y'all recommend I take at 5th? (Remember, the character is primarily a ranged fighting Ranger [with no spells variant]).
I think it's worth noting that for a Battlemaster, you get lots of Maneuvers, and never any less than three... so with the discussion being around what two they will pick, I'm kind of assuming that Sage is actually picking these up through Martial Adept. Assuming that's the case, they have one maneuver per short rest (essentially, no more than one per encounter, but possibly only one per day). I think it's pretty likely that once per encounter, or at least once per day, you will find a very attractive target to either knock prone or frighten. Will you encounter one enemy per combat, or at least one per day, that is immune to Fear and that you wouldn't rather Trip than impose disadvantage on one round of its attacks? Maybe, maybe not?
It's hard to speak in absolutes about combat maneuvers. Of course they all have a place where they shine, which is why it's great that the Battlemaster gets so many to pick from. But if you're taking Martial Adept on its own, you need to think about it more like "I'm picking up the ability to do an "A" or "B" wow move once per combat, so what two cool abilities will cover the most different scenarios, and stand out the most when used?"
If we are instead talking about Battlemaster (and from the perspective of ranged Battlemaster in particular), then obviously you flesh out more of a complete toolkit, anticipating that you can do tricks 4-5 times per combat (or per day, if your DM hates short rests). I'd recommend:
Edit: Ranger....? What are you?!
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
If you don't have Push, get Push. For a distance poker especially, being able to move any character within potentially six hundred feet of you up to fifteen feet away with just a Strength save is of incredible value.
Please do not contact or message me.
Hm. I'd kind of written off Pushing Attack but those are some neat tactical applications so I will definitely reconsider.
I'm sorry that I didn't mention it earlier, Chicken_Champ, but the OP question is for a Ranger [with no magic variant from UA]. He receives two CMs at level two (instead of spells) and another at 5. I'm running another thread about said character and unconsciously mixed up where I'd given/requested info regarding the build. In case any of you are interested, here's the other thread:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/ranger/73839-combo-dex-str-barbarian-1-ranger-x#c8
I really like Pushing Attack, but it does require specific terrain (cliffs or other hazards) or a specific situation (party wants an enemy pushed away, which isn't usually the case unless a squishy got caught), while advantage on attacks (prone) or disadvantage on enemy attacks and restricted movement (fear) are always relevant in every combat. That leaves it head to head with Precision Attack for me... and don't get me wrong, Precision Attack is boring. But assuming you're taking Sharpshooter at 4, Precision Attack is going to come up for a 15-20 damage swing almost every combat, while Pushing Attack may not. So Push always ends up getting pushed (ha!) back to level 7 for me.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Precision Attack is definitely a contender, but I'm planning on taking the attribute bumps (+1 to attacks, checks, saving throws) instead of a Feat at lvl 4. The attribute increase just seems more useful across the board.
Does it, though? In looking at the description, it says, "frightened of you". Does that mean only frightened of the character that hit the creature with Menacing Attack, or frightened of the entire party? If it's the former, then the only advantage MA has over GA is the restriction on movement towards the character.
I should have looked up the Frightened Condition before asking that last question. It clearly states, "A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight." So, as long as the creature can see my Ranger, it will have disadvantage on attacks against other characters as well.
Yup. And yup.
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