I'm sorry, but we're talking about a way people think.
This subclass is the BEST (or better).
This subclass is the WORST.
If you constantly try to fix "the WORST", then you either make it less worse (but still the WORST) or you make it better and something else becomes the WORST.
As long as people continue to think in terms of this is the BEST (maybe nerf it) and this is the WORST (definitely improve it), it creates a never ending cycle which leads to power creep.
The way I see it is if you think the Champion is so bad, don't play it. If you're a DM, you can ban the subclass to prevent your players from 'becoming trapped'. I personally ban the Assassin subclass for this exact reason.
I play with a player that died as a Battlemaster in my campaign. In hindsight he forgot or chose to not use a lot of his battlemaster abilities, either because he was trying to conserve resources or just plain forgot what his subclass could do in the heat of the moment. Now he plays a Champion in another campaign where I'm a player and he enjoys it. Rolling that dice to get a crit on a 19 or 20 is like playing the lottery. Every roll is preceded by a "c'mon 19 or 20!'. And the rest of the party are on board too, doing everything they can to give him advantage or make the crit pay off with extra damage bonuses.
Fighters are immensely versatile because they get all those ASI's or Feats as they level up. A Champion player can focus more on specializing at social encounters or skill checks or crazy feat/skill combos, and be happy with ONLY a better chance at crits for a combat ability. Combat should be 50% of a campaign AT MOST. If people build their characters to do nothing but pump out maximum damage, then they're probably ignoring or being useless the other 50% or more of the time.
The Champion is fine, because not everyone that plays wants to make a DPR monster.
The “don’t play it unless it’s the best” mentality is really harmful for D&D, even though I love optimization and theory crafting, finding ways to use a feature to its full effect can be satisfying, without needing to consider if some OTHER feature or class is superior at the same role.
The thing about the Champion is that it's boring on top of not especially mechanically effective. The basic criterion I would use here is "how often does this class let me do something that feels neat". Most fighter subs will let you do something that is noticeable in game at least once per medium encounter (3 rounds combat) even when introduced. Champion at level 3 gets you an extra critical roughly once per six encounters, and criticals aren't that exciting.
If you’re attack with advantage, a 19-20 crit is like 20%, and with elven advantage, 30%. Crits are fun.
With advantage, a 20 crit is 9.75%, a 19-20 is 19% (+9.25%), so you get an extra one crit per 11 attacks. That won't reach the threshold of "my subclass helps me noticeably once per encounter" until sometime in tier 3 (and it's not like you can get advantage on every attack). As for Elven Accuracy, that's getting into specialized builds that generally only become fully effective at levels most campaigns spend little if any time at. It's totally possible to have a level 15 multi-feat build where Champion feels good, but it should feel good at level 3.
Comparing a level 3 Champion against a fully realized GWM build (which is usually level 12 for most classes, or 8 for a dedicated fighter) is disingenuous.
An Elven Champion with Elven Accuracy and Mounted Combatant can pretty reliably make Advantage+ attacks all day long against Medium or smaller opponents. That could come together for a Champion as soon as level 6 with 18 Dex, or level 8 with 20 Dex, and isn't really a high level pie in the sky build. As the campaign progresses into T3 and T4, it isn't out of the question that such a character could get their hands on a Huge mount to extend the advantage to large opponents, or find other ways to consistently generate advantage with Magic Items or multiclassing. Whether you call that 30% crit rate or 29% or whatever, critting an average of once per round or more on your Attack or other bonus action attacks is clearly quite a different story than what you're telling by talking about "one extra crit per 11 attacks".
Crits are fun. Extending your crit range from 19-20 doesn't seem like it would make them happen much more often with normal attacks (from 5 to 10%), but when you factor in reliable advantage, or even better, Elven Accuracy super-advantage, a very different pattern emerges.
Comparing a level 3 Champion against a fully realized GWM build (which is usually level 12 for most classes, or 8 for a dedicated fighter) is disingenuous.
I wasn't. I was comparing it to every other fighter subclass. Looking at your choices, assuming 2 encounters per short rest
Arcane Archer: 2 shots per short rest, so 1 per encounter.
Battle Master: 4 dice per short rest, so 2 per encounter.
Cavalier: Unwavering Mark is every attack, the bonus action attack is 3x/day so about 1/2 encounters.
Champion: something like 0.15 extra criticals per encounter.
Eldritch Knight: you only get 2 spells per day and cantrips not very relevant, so less than 1 per encounter.
Psionic Warrior: you get 4 dice and a fifth as a bonus action, so 2 per encounter.
Rune Knight: you can use 2 runes per short rest, so 1 per encounter; Giant's Might is about 1/3 encounters.
Samurai: you can use Fighting Spirit 3x/day, so every other encounter. You also gain a bonus proficiency.
The only subs where your subclass doesn't do something important at least an average of 1/encounter are EK and Samurai.
Every subclass is a special butterfly, they all do something. But if we're talking about how subclasses perform damage-wise, assuming two encounters per short rest, lets say 5 rounds per combat, at level 3 you've got:
Arcane Archer: twice per short rest, an effect and/or maybe something like 2d6 damage. So, two instances of average 7 damage over 10 rounds, 1.4 DPR, and/or some minor effect.
Battlemaster: four d8's per short rest, and effects. So, four instances of average 4.5 damage over 10 rounds, 1.8 DPR, and some minor effects.
Cavalier: occasionally a special bonus action attack, up to Str times per long rest. So, three instances of average 6ish(polearm)+3(str)+1ish(GWFS)+1(half fighter level)+(the damage signifigance of advantage giving you a +5% chance to hit, call that .3 for a d10 weapon) over 20 rounds, .... so call it about .6 DPR and some taunting.
Champion: every round, you have a 5% higher chance to crit with every one of your weapon attacks. Thats worth about .2 for a d6 or d8, .3 for a d10, or .35 for a 2d6 on every attack, not much but not nothing. Somewhere between .2 and .35 DPR from this subclass' features at this level, though it'll benefit more from Extra Attack than most of the other subclasses, so this is one of the worst levels to look at it.
Echo Knight: occasionally a special bonus action, up to Con times per long rest, with no bonuses. 3 instances of average 6ish+3+1ish over 20 rounds , .2 DPR. Wait, 1.5? Where did I screw up my math...?
Eldritch Knight: No DPR boost at all, even if you have 16 Intelligence you're unlikely to do more damage with a spell than a weapon attack. 0 DPR.
Psi Warrior: four d8's per short rest but no effects, see battlemaster above. 1.8 DPR.
Purple Dragon: No DPR boost, 0 DPR.
Rune Knight: up to two types of either a 2d6 bonus damage and effect, or some other effect that might redirect a single attack, over 10 rounds. Probably about Arcane Archer level, of 1.4 DPR. But also, can transform for a bonus d6 once per turn for the whole fight, enough times to do it every fight. So add 3.5 to that, for a total of about 4.9 DPR boost, great subclass!
Samurai: we talked about advantage basically being +5% chance to crit, which on its own is .2 for a d6 or d8, .3 for a d10, or .35 for a 2d6 (plus the DPR boost of hitting more often). Three times per long rest, you'll add that something between .2 and .35. Over 20 rounds, no more than .05 DPR.
Is Champion at the top of this pack, with its .2-.35 DPR Impact at Level 3? Nope, Rune Knight takes the cake with 4.9, with Psi Warrior, Battlemaster, tied for second at 1.8, and then Arcane Archer with 1.4, and then Cavalier in fourth with .6. But is at the bottom? Nope, it's more significant than PDK and EK (0 DPR), Samurai (.05 DPR), Echo Knight (.2 DPR)... Solid middle of the pack choice... and if we were to look at this again at 5th, 11th, and 20th level, Champion would be moving up in the rankings, because its the only subclass whose DPR impact scales up for every attack the Champion makes.
This low level decimal math is very uninteresting, and nobody is picking a subclass because of a perceived difference between .2 DPR and .6 DPR over 10 rounds or more. Champion is fine, and crits feel good.
Edit: I dunno, I screwed up Echo Knight's math, probably screwed up others as well... who cares.
An Elven Champion 14/Artificer 6 with Mounted Combatant, Piercer, Dual Wielder, Fey Touched, and two infused lances, attacks three or four times per round with elven advantage on all attacks against medium or smaller (maybe even large or smaller, with a better mount?), critting on about 30% of attacks, with base attacks of 1d12+5 (Int)+1 (Infused)+1d6 (Hunter's Mark), and can reroll 1's and 2's on the d12 and d6 (about 18 average damage per hit). That's about 72 damage per round from four normal hits, but their frequent crits (usually at least one per round) will be doing 3d12+5+1+2d6 r1s&2s, average 36 per crit, so that's closer to 90 average damage per round. And they can Action Surge! That is not a bad build.
A Half Orc Champion 3/Berserker 17 (sure why not), with Piercer, GWM, and PAM (so that they don't actually have to use Frenzy every fight for Bonus Actions, but could drop this for something else like more Dex or Con), will attack three times per round with regular advantage on all attacks against all enemies, critting on about 20% of attacks, with base attacks of 1d10+5 (Str) + ~1 (GWFS adjustment) + 4 (rage) +10 (GWM), and can reroll 1's and 2's on the d10 (about 26 average damage per hit). That's about 78 damage per round from three normal hits, but their crit every other round or so will be doing 6d10+5+~6+4+10, average 63 on that crit, so closer to about 80 average damage per round but can spike quite a bit higher at time! And they can Action Surge! That is not a bad build.
You can make Champion/Ranger builds, which seek to double up rapiers that are carrying Hunter's Mark or Favored Foe d6's. You can make Champion/Rogue builds, which seek to double up Sneak Attack. Champion/Paladin, double those smites more reliably! You can build pure Champions, which crit about 30% of the time on horseback or while grappling, or about 45% of the time if they're elven. There's plenty of versatile and interesting builds to look for.
Champions tend to want Piercer and piercing weapons. They tend to want to be build to be Mounted, or to be Grapplers, or be making Reckless Attacks, or some other way to reliably generate advantage like with Pack Tactics. They can benefit from Barbarian or Half Orc crit enhancements, or from being Elven and using dex/int/wis/cha to attack. They like bonus damage dice. There are certainly themes that they tend to repeat, just like any other subclass has certain build elements that go particularly well with them, but there's hardly only 1 dimension to them.
Champions tend to want Piercer and piercing weapons. They tend to want to be build to be Mounted, or to be Grapplers, or be making Reckless Attacks, or some other way to reliably generate advantage. They can benefit from Barbarian or Half Orc crit enhancements, or from being Elven and using dex/int/wis/cha to attack. They like bonus damage dice. There are certainly themes that they tend to repeat, just like any other subclass has certain build elements that go particularly well with them, but there's hardly only 1 dimension to them.
Now, show me examples where a Champion is a good tier-1/tier-2 build. Reality is, level 20 builds are minimally relevant to the game, because it's not where most campaigns happen.
Champions tend to want Piercer and piercing weapons. They tend to want to be build to be Mounted, or to be Grapplers, or be making Reckless Attacks, or some other way to reliably generate advantage. They can benefit from Barbarian or Half Orc crit enhancements, or from being Elven and using dex/int/wis/cha to attack. They like bonus damage dice. There are certainly themes that they tend to repeat, just like any other subclass has certain build elements that go particularly well with them, but there's hardly only 1 dimension to them.
Now, show me examples where a Champion is a good tier-1/tier-2 build. Reality is, level 20 builds are minimally relevant to the game, because it's not where most campaigns happen.
I could make a pretty decent Champion in tier 1-2 builds.
I would make a dwarf, and using tasha's custom origin, I'd start out with a +2 in both STR and DEX with 17 in EACH. I would start with either the great weapon fighting style, or defense. Then come lvl 4, I'd take an ASI for +1 to each DEX and STR, now both are at 18. Then at 6, I'd take GWM, which synergizes better with the extra critical. at 8, I'd take sharpshooter, and later when I get an extra fighting style, I'd take archery.
I now have a fighter that has much better initiative than other fighters, and is able to fight at both close range and at a distance effectively. Could I make the same dwarf fighter as any other subclass? Sure, but it won't be as effective as a mixed fighter like the champion. Other fighters who take this approach will either be less effective in melee, squishier, or less accurate in their archery. Other fighters are incentivized to pair GWM with PAM to get the most out of melee, but the champion doesn't suffer as much with just GWM alone, as it procs the bonus action twice as often
Also, let us never underestimate the tactical advantage that is given thanks to peerless athlete's initiative boost. It's hard to quantify exactly how much this helps compared to the other fighters, but it is a help. This build utilizes it even better thanks to its higher DEX.
This, in short, gives us a fighter that is versatile, and versatility is such a valuable tool.
Isn't that just base fighter, but very occasionally benefitting from a few minor champion subclass abilities?
This is kind of the problem: Champion isn't versatile, its just basic and lacking features.
Most Fighters that I've played and seen played are really good at one thing so they do that one thing a LOT. How many times does a fight start with "My Barbarian will Rage and charge the BBEG and wail on him with Reckless Attack"?
Many Warlocks spam Eldrich Blast.
Shooters shoot.
This isn't a lack of versatility it's doing what you do best.
Isn't that just base fighter, but very occasionally benefitting from a few minor champion subclass abilities?
This is kind of the problem: Champion isn't versatile, its just basic and lacking features.
I mean, it's like having two different base fighters in one, with better initiative. Pretty good, no?
A bonus to initiative is always welcome, but it's not earth shattering, and you don't get it until level 7.
5% extra crit chance in reality only adds up to a fraction of 1 HP of damage per attack. Best case scenario if you're using a great sword (7 hp average damage), you'll roll a 19 once per twenty attacks on average. That's an extra 7 damage for every 20 times you swing your sword, which works out to 0.35 extra damage per swing. A +3 magic weapon does not change the math at all. Something like flame tongue does because you're adding dice, but it's still nothing to write home about.
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I'm sorry, but we're talking about a way people think.
This subclass is the BEST (or better).
This subclass is the WORST.
If you constantly try to fix "the WORST", then you either make it less worse (but still the WORST) or you make it better and something else becomes the WORST.
As long as people continue to think in terms of this is the BEST (maybe nerf it) and this is the WORST (definitely improve it), it creates a never ending cycle which leads to power creep.
The way I see it is if you think the Champion is so bad, don't play it. If you're a DM, you can ban the subclass to prevent your players from 'becoming trapped'. I personally ban the Assassin subclass for this exact reason.
I play with a player that died as a Battlemaster in my campaign. In hindsight he forgot or chose to not use a lot of his battlemaster abilities, either because he was trying to conserve resources or just plain forgot what his subclass could do in the heat of the moment. Now he plays a Champion in another campaign where I'm a player and he enjoys it. Rolling that dice to get a crit on a 19 or 20 is like playing the lottery. Every roll is preceded by a "c'mon 19 or 20!'. And the rest of the party are on board too, doing everything they can to give him advantage or make the crit pay off with extra damage bonuses.
Fighters are immensely versatile because they get all those ASI's or Feats as they level up. A Champion player can focus more on specializing at social encounters or skill checks or crazy feat/skill combos, and be happy with ONLY a better chance at crits for a combat ability. Combat should be 50% of a campaign AT MOST. If people build their characters to do nothing but pump out maximum damage, then they're probably ignoring or being useless the other 50% or more of the time.
The Champion is fine, because not everyone that plays wants to make a DPR monster.
The thing about the Champion is that it's boring on top of not especially mechanically effective. The basic criterion I would use here is "how often does this class let me do something that feels neat". Most fighter subs will let you do something that is noticeable in game at least once per medium encounter (3 rounds combat) even when introduced. Champion at level 3 gets you an extra critical roughly once per six encounters, and criticals aren't that exciting.
If you’re attack with advantage, a 19-20 crit is like 20%, and with elven advantage, 30%. Crits are fun.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
With advantage, a 20 crit is 9.75%, a 19-20 is 19% (+9.25%), so you get an extra one crit per 11 attacks. That won't reach the threshold of "my subclass helps me noticeably once per encounter" until sometime in tier 3 (and it's not like you can get advantage on every attack). As for Elven Accuracy, that's getting into specialized builds that generally only become fully effective at levels most campaigns spend little if any time at. It's totally possible to have a level 15 multi-feat build where Champion feels good, but it should feel good at level 3.
Comparing a level 3 Champion against a fully realized GWM build (which is usually level 12 for most classes, or 8 for a dedicated fighter) is disingenuous.
An Elven Champion with Elven Accuracy and Mounted Combatant can pretty reliably make Advantage+ attacks all day long against Medium or smaller opponents. That could come together for a Champion as soon as level 6 with 18 Dex, or level 8 with 20 Dex, and isn't really a high level pie in the sky build. As the campaign progresses into T3 and T4, it isn't out of the question that such a character could get their hands on a Huge mount to extend the advantage to large opponents, or find other ways to consistently generate advantage with Magic Items or multiclassing. Whether you call that 30% crit rate or 29% or whatever, critting an average of once per round or more on your Attack or other bonus action attacks is clearly quite a different story than what you're telling by talking about "one extra crit per 11 attacks".
Crits are fun. Extending your crit range from 19-20 doesn't seem like it would make them happen much more often with normal attacks (from 5 to 10%), but when you factor in reliable advantage, or even better, Elven Accuracy super-advantage, a very different pattern emerges.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I wasn't. I was comparing it to every other fighter subclass. Looking at your choices, assuming 2 encounters per short rest
The only subs where your subclass doesn't do something important at least an average of 1/encounter are EK and Samurai.
Why are you asking if you already think it sucks?
Did you play a Champion at some point and get slaughtered, so you think the subclass is terrible?
Why harp on how bad the Champion is (your words, not mine) when there are whole CLASSES that are worse?
You're the guy that gripes about the drapes while the house is burning down...
Da Champ ain’t “bad” so much as just “boring.”
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Every subclass is a special butterfly, they all do something. But if we're talking about how subclasses perform damage-wise, assuming two encounters per short rest, lets say 5 rounds per combat, at level 3 you've got:
.2 DPR.Wait, 1.5? Where did I screw up my math...?Is Champion at the top of this pack, with its .2-.35 DPR Impact at Level 3? Nope, Rune Knight takes the cake with 4.9, with Psi Warrior, Battlemaster, tied for second at 1.8, and then Arcane Archer with 1.4, and then Cavalier in fourth with .6. But is at the bottom? Nope, it's more significant than PDK and EK (0 DPR), Samurai (.05 DPR),
Echo Knight (.2 DPR)... Solid middle of the pack choice... and if we were to look at this again at 5th, 11th, and 20th level, Champion would be moving up in the rankings, because its the only subclass whose DPR impact scales up for every attack the Champion makes.This low level decimal math is very uninteresting, and nobody is picking a subclass because of a perceived difference between .2 DPR and .6 DPR over 10 rounds or more. Champion is fine, and crits feel good.
Edit: I dunno, I screwed up Echo Knight's math, probably screwed up others as well... who cares.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
5 rounds of combat is a high estimate, 3.5 rounds is more accurate.
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I wasn't. I was saying 'how often does your subclass let you do something cool'. That doesn't have to be damage.
And two combats per short rest is low, for many published campaigns. Rough math is rough.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The fact remains that the class is worse on damage and offers next to nothing in versatility.
It's very much a trap option for new players IMO.
An Elven Champion 14/Artificer 6 with Mounted Combatant, Piercer, Dual Wielder, Fey Touched, and two infused lances, attacks three or four times per round with elven advantage on all attacks against medium or smaller (maybe even large or smaller, with a better mount?), critting on about 30% of attacks, with base attacks of 1d12+5 (Int)+1 (Infused)+1d6 (Hunter's Mark), and can reroll 1's and 2's on the d12 and d6 (about 18 average damage per hit). That's about 72 damage per round from four normal hits, but their frequent crits (usually at least one per round) will be doing 3d12+5+1+2d6 r1s&2s, average 36 per crit, so that's closer to 90 average damage per round. And they can Action Surge! That is not a bad build.
A Half Orc Champion 3/Berserker 17 (sure why not), with Piercer, GWM, and PAM (so that they don't actually have to use Frenzy every fight for Bonus Actions, but could drop this for something else like more Dex or Con), will attack three times per round with regular advantage on all attacks against all enemies, critting on about 20% of attacks, with base attacks of 1d10+5 (Str) + ~1 (GWFS adjustment) + 4 (rage) +10 (GWM), and can reroll 1's and 2's on the d10 (about 26 average damage per hit). That's about 78 damage per round from three normal hits, but their crit every other round or so will be doing 6d10+5+~6+4+10, average 63 on that crit, so closer to about 80 average damage per round but can spike quite a bit higher at time! And they can Action Surge! That is not a bad build.
You can make Champion/Ranger builds, which seek to double up rapiers that are carrying Hunter's Mark or Favored Foe d6's. You can make Champion/Rogue builds, which seek to double up Sneak Attack. Champion/Paladin, double those smites more reliably! You can build pure Champions, which crit about 30% of the time on horseback or while grappling, or about 45% of the time if they're elven. There's plenty of versatile and interesting builds to look for.
Champions tend to want Piercer and piercing weapons. They tend to want to be build to be Mounted, or to be Grapplers, or be making Reckless Attacks, or some other way to reliably generate advantage like with Pack Tactics. They can benefit from Barbarian or Half Orc crit enhancements, or from being Elven and using dex/int/wis/cha to attack. They like bonus damage dice. There are certainly themes that they tend to repeat, just like any other subclass has certain build elements that go particularly well with them, but there's hardly only 1 dimension to them.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Now, show me examples where a Champion is a good tier-1/tier-2 build. Reality is, level 20 builds are minimally relevant to the game, because it's not where most campaigns happen.
I could make a pretty decent Champion in tier 1-2 builds.
I would make a dwarf, and using tasha's custom origin, I'd start out with a +2 in both STR and DEX with 17 in EACH. I would start with either the great weapon fighting style, or defense. Then come lvl 4, I'd take an ASI for +1 to each DEX and STR, now both are at 18. Then at 6, I'd take GWM, which synergizes better with the extra critical. at 8, I'd take sharpshooter, and later when I get an extra fighting style, I'd take archery.
I now have a fighter that has much better initiative than other fighters, and is able to fight at both close range and at a distance effectively. Could I make the same dwarf fighter as any other subclass? Sure, but it won't be as effective as a mixed fighter like the champion. Other fighters who take this approach will either be less effective in melee, squishier, or less accurate in their archery. Other fighters are incentivized to pair GWM with PAM to get the most out of melee, but the champion doesn't suffer as much with just GWM alone, as it procs the bonus action twice as often
Also, let us never underestimate the tactical advantage that is given thanks to peerless athlete's initiative boost. It's hard to quantify exactly how much this helps compared to the other fighters, but it is a help. This build utilizes it even better thanks to its higher DEX.
This, in short, gives us a fighter that is versatile, and versatility is such a valuable tool.
Isn't that just base fighter, but very occasionally benefitting from a few minor champion subclass abilities?
This is kind of the problem: Champion isn't versatile, its just basic and lacking features.
I mean, it's like having two different base fighters in one, with better initiative. Pretty good, no?
Most Fighters that I've played and seen played are really good at one thing so they do that one thing a LOT. How many times does a fight start with "My Barbarian will Rage and charge the BBEG and wail on him with Reckless Attack"?
Many Warlocks spam Eldrich Blast.
Shooters shoot.
This isn't a lack of versatility it's doing what you do best.
A bonus to initiative is always welcome, but it's not earth shattering, and you don't get it until level 7.
5% extra crit chance in reality only adds up to a fraction of 1 HP of damage per attack. Best case scenario if you're using a great sword (7 hp average damage), you'll roll a 19 once per twenty attacks on average. That's an extra 7 damage for every 20 times you swing your sword, which works out to 0.35 extra damage per swing. A +3 magic weapon does not change the math at all. Something like flame tongue does because you're adding dice, but it's still nothing to write home about.