I would say that Spirit Shroud is only good on Fighters or any other class with multi attack feature, and even then, with 4 attacks per attack action, I'd still pick Spirit Guardians over Spirit Shroud if I had a the choice. 35 F diameter sphere with 3d8 dmg to everything, and a guaranteed (3d8)/2 just surpases Spirit Shroud completely.
Spirit Guardians is far far better on a Cleric. I wonder why Clerics even get access to Spirit Shroud. It mainly makes sense for Eldritch Knights since you can't cast it on another target than yourself.
Yeah, I resurrected this because I was also trying to figure out why Clerics even get Spirit Shroud, where it basically seems to require a multiclass. I notice it's also available to Warlocks, and wonder if there's a lock build where SS makes a lot of sense.
I mean it's not a terrible spell. In many ways it's an upgraded hex or hunter's mark. Spirit Guardians is just really, really good so it suffers in comparison.
I would say that Spirit Shroud is only good on Fighters or any other class with multi attack feature, and even then, with 4 attacks per attack action, I'd still pick Spirit Guardians over Spirit Shroud if I had a the choice. 35 F diameter sphere with 3d8 dmg to everything, and a guaranteed (3d8)/2 just surpases Spirit Shroud completely.
Spirit Guardians is far far better on a Cleric. I wonder why Clerics even get access to Spirit Shroud. It mainly makes sense for Eldritch Knights since you can't cast it on another target than yourself.
Yeah, I resurrected this because I was also trying to figure out why Clerics even get Spirit Shroud, where it basically seems to require a multiclass. I notice it's also available to Warlocks, and wonder if there's a lock build where SS makes a lot of sense.
It's available to Eldritch Knights at level 13 where they get their first level 3 spells. At that point the fighter has 3-4 attacks per turn. There it makes sense. The Eldritch Knight never get level 5 spells though, so they can't upcast to 2d8 damage per strike.
At level 12 you get Lifedrinker for +5 necrotic, and you also have fifth level spell slots (since level 9) so you're getting 2D8 from Spirit Shroud.
You get two attacks with your glaive, and then the polearm master bonus attack.
If you use Hexblade's Curse on the target of your ire you're adding damage equivalent to your proficiency bonus (+4 at level 12).
So if you take the GWM penalty you add 10+5+5+4+1+2D8 to every damage roll you make. 25+2D8
So with your +1 Glaive at level 12 you're +9 to hit -5 for GWM for a total of +4. You have two attacks doing D10+25+2D8 damage, and your bonus attack of D4+25+2D8.
If you land them all that's 2D10+6D8+D4+75, or somewhere between 84 and 147 damage per round. You double the dice rolled on a critical of 19 or 20, and if you do critical you can pop your Eldritch Smite for 12D8 force damage on top.
Of course this is theorycrafting but it shows Hexblade can make some pretty serious figures with the right build. Spirit Shroud really only benefits classes with the largest number of attacks, and Hexblade does have a few nice things to stack on top of that.
Eldritch Knight gets multiattacks but it never gets level 5 spell slots without multiclassing, and Paladins get their fifth level slots at level 17.
Bladesinger does get multiattack and can get 7th and 9th level spell slots for up to 4D8 Spirit Shroud damage, but a strength based PAM/GWM build is not "normal" for a Bladesinger. Because Hexblade uses charisma for its pact weapons you don't have to sacrifice any of your spellcasting ability to pump up your melee score.
At level 12 you get Lifedrinker for +5 necrotic, and you also have fifth level spell slots (since level 9) so you're getting 2D8 from Spirit Shroud.
You get two attacks with your glaive, and then the polearm master bonus attack.
If you use Hexblade's Curse on the target of your ire you're adding damage equivalent to your proficiency bonus (+4 at level 12).
So if you take the GWM penalty you add 10+5+5+4+1+2D8 to every damage roll you make. 25+2D8
So with your +1 Glaive at level 12 you're +9 to hit -5 for GWM for a total of +4. You have two attacks doing D10+25+2D8 damage, and your bonus attack of D4+25+2D8.
If you land them all that's 2D10+6D8+D4+75, or somewhere between 84 and 147 damage per round. You double the dice rolled on a critical of 19 or 20, and if you do critical you can pop your Eldritch Smite for 12D8 force damage on top.
Of course this is theorycrafting but it shows Hexblade can make some pretty serious figures with the right build. Spirit Shroud really only benefits classes with the largest number of attacks, and Hexblade does have a few nice things to stack on top of that.
That Hexblade build is a little outdated and slow. Custom Lineage is the way to go nowadays. This allows you to start with 18 CHA (by grabbing a half feat) and by level 5 you can max out your CHA and attack 3 times with Thirsting Blade by summoning a Double Bladed Scimitar, its also a +1 weapon if you take Improved Pact Weapon as well. The beauty of this is you can still transition into GWM + Polearm Master with your levels 8 and 12 ASIs with the added benefit of hitting like a truck at level 5.
Man, I love Spirit Shroud! And I love to use it with the SW combo along with my Booming Blade Warhammer attack. As a sorc/fighter/cleric combo, having the flexibility to change the cold damage to something else (like lightning) is clutch
Admittedly, though, I prefer to use my concentration on something else. SG also creates difficult terrain, which can be situationally beneficial.
Toss in a BESTOW CURSE at 5th level to avoid the concentration requirement and an additional 1d8 damage or impose disADV on saves and it's even more effective. It's just not appropriate on every encounter/fight.
But SS certainly isn't bad. Depending on the AC of the target, making an attack roll may actually be preferable. For my S/F/C character, I'm all but guaranteed to hit at least 3 times using Guided Strike (twice) and Favored by the Gods (once). That's considerable. Situational, sure. But considerable nonetheless.
At level 12 you get Lifedrinker for +5 necrotic, and you also have fifth level spell slots (since level 9) so you're getting 2D8 from Spirit Shroud.
You get two attacks with your glaive, and then the polearm master bonus attack.
If you use Hexblade's Curse on the target of your ire you're adding damage equivalent to your proficiency bonus (+4 at level 12).
So if you take the GWM penalty you add 10+5+5+4+1+2D8 to every damage roll you make. 25+2D8
So with your +1 Glaive at level 12 you're +9 to hit -5 for GWM for a total of +4. You have two attacks doing D10+25+2D8 damage, and your bonus attack of D4+25+2D8.
If you land them all that's 2D10+6D8+D4+75, or somewhere between 84 and 147 damage per round. You double the dice rolled on a critical of 19 or 20, and if you do critical you can pop your Eldritch Smite for 12D8 force damage on top.
Of course this is theorycrafting but it shows Hexblade can make some pretty serious figures with the right build. Spirit Shroud really only benefits classes with the largest number of attacks, and Hexblade does have a few nice things to stack on top of that.
That Hexblade build is a little outdated and slow. Custom Lineage is the way to go nowadays. This allows you to start with 18 CHA (by grabbing a half feat) and by level 5 you can max out your CHA and attack 3 times with Thirsting Blade by summoning a Double Bladed Scimitar, its also a +1 weapon if you take Improved Pact Weapon as well. The beauty of this is you can still transition into GWM + Polearm Master with your levels 8 and 12 ASIs with the added benefit of hitting like a truck at level 5.
To be clear, the transition to GWM and/or Polearm Master wouldn't include the double bladed scimitar, you'd have to get a different weapon. Also be aware that you may get some flak from your DM, since is introduced in Eberron. The bonus attack from Polearm Master is baked in, though so that's a nice perk.
The usual rabbit hole that gets followed with the DBS is as follows, but isn't likely to help the build. If you are an elf (Custom Lineage elves, YMMV per DM), then you can take the feat:
Feat: Revenant Blade
Prerequisite: Elf
You are descended from a master of the double-bladed scimitar, and some of that mastery has passed on to you. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Dexterity or Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
While you are holding a double-bladed scimitar with two hands, you gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
A double-bladed scimitar has the finesse property when you wield it.
This does enable some shenanigans, but they aren't likely to be as useful to the build outlined, primarily enabling a +2 to AC (one from the feat and 1 from dex if you leave your dex odd) along with finesse weapon shenanigans like sneak attack or 2d4 strength based attacks with barb and rogue at advantage (though not triple advantage through Reckless Attacks because it specifically calls for strength based attacks while Elven Accuracy explicitly excludes strength based attacks).
The beauty of Pact of the Blade is you can change the form of your weapon, so you are guaranteed to have a +1 weapon of the type of your choosing (provided you took the Improved Pact Weapon invocation). Which makes the transition from Double Bladed Scimitar (DBS) to a Polearm a mere Action away.
And of course I would never advise anybody to just spring a weapon like DBS before consulting with their DM beforehand. Worse case scenario is you take Polearm Master as the Bonus feat instead and don't get to max CHA until level 8 which is not the end of the world. But if your DM is ok with you summoning a DBS then you have a ridiculously strong level 5 character.
The beauty of Pact of the Blade is you can change the form of your weapon, so you are guaranteed to have a +1 weapon of the type of your choosing (provided you took the Improved Pact Weapon invocation). Which makes the transition from Double Bladed Scimitar (DBS) to a Polearm a mere Action away.
And of course I would never advise anybody to just spring a weapon like DBS before consulting with their DM beforehand. Worse case scenario is you take Polearm Master as the Bonus feat instead and don't get to max CHA until level 8 which is not the end of the world. But if your DM is ok with you summoning a DBS then you have a ridiculously strong level 5 character.
And it can be used on small creatures without incurring disadvantage since it isn't a heavy weapon (the reason why it isn't optimal with GWM's power attack bullet, though it still qualifies for the bonus action bullet which would upgrade the BA to full power on a crit or kill. Devil's Sight/Darkness shenanigans are on the menu, though possibly delayed in that build for advantage. Going with some kind of elf or getting a DM to sign off on custom lineage qualifying for Elven Accuracy coupled with that combo gives the chances for an increased crit count before Hexblade's Curse is even considered and the possibility of dropping a creature with the build is reasonable, especially if you are willing to poach kills or take Green Flame Blade and luck into a nearly dead creature within 5 ft of another enemy.
Don't worry too much about dropping Spiritual Weapon. It's not god-like. It can be good but you need a long combat to actually get real value and any turns it isn't attacking because it's out of range with its weak 20 ft movement speed, or someone else killed the monster it was next to, or you need to cast Healing Word (or another BA spell) is just lost and unrecoverable damage. It takes a minimum of three rounds (three attacks assuming it attacks every turn) to beat an up-cast Guiding Bolt and that damage is spread out over a longer period of time (more so if it misses turns due to above actions) during which you might have killed something much sooner with the GB and avoided whatever damage it dealt. And if you have Rogues and Paladins that advantage from GB can have a bigger impact.
I'm not pushing GB as an alternative, just pointing out a comparison to show that SW isn't the god-like end-all be-all spell that people make it out to be. Don't even bother using it unless you know it's going to be a long combat and you really need to watch your situations in order to make it actually good. Several weak enemies spread around? Not good for SW since other players may be killing its intended targets leaving it out of range for a turn. Big open area with enemies spread out? Terrible situation for SW. Any reductions in efficiency like this really kill the spell and you'd have gotten more mileage out of just casting GB or something else. You really need big enemies that are going to last for several turns and the closer the quarters the better.
It's situational. If a cleric opens combat with a Channel Divinity or another non-spell Action, dropping in SW as a Bonus Action in the first round is a pretty good use of that economy - especially early in combat when Healing Word usually isn't necessary. Sometimes I'd rather take my chances with 3 attacks dealing 1d8+5 than one attack dealing 5d6 when I want to pace out more reliable damage in a big fight against a single big target -- especially since it attacks the turn you cast it.
I don't think SW is god-like, as some people think it is. But, to say it isn't one of the most useful tools in a Clerics kit is way underselling it.
Don't worry too much about dropping Spiritual Weapon. It's not god-like. It can be good but you need a long combat to actually get real value and any turns it isn't attacking because it's out of range with its weak 20 ft movement speed, or someone else killed the monster it was next to, or you need to cast Healing Word (or another BA spell) is just lost and unrecoverable damage. It takes a minimum of three rounds (three attacks assuming it attacks every turn) to beat an up-cast Guiding Bolt.
I would say that Spirit Shroud is only good on Fighters or any other class with multi attack feature, and even then, with 4 attacks per attack action, I'd still pick Spirit Guardians over Spirit Shroud if I had a the choice. 35 F diameter sphere with 3d8 dmg to everything, and a guaranteed (3d8)/2 just surpases Spirit Shroud completely.
Spirit Guardians is far far better on a Cleric. I wonder why Clerics even get access to Spirit Shroud. It mainly makes sense for Eldritch Knights since you can't cast it on another target than yourself.
Yeah, I resurrected this because I was also trying to figure out why Clerics even get Spirit Shroud, where it basically seems to require a multiclass. I notice it's also available to Warlocks, and wonder if there's a lock build where SS makes a lot of sense.
Hexblade is the obvious choice. And Spirit Shroud scales well, so it will level up with your spell slots.
Yeah, I resurrected this because I was also trying to figure out why Clerics even get Spirit Shroud, where it basically seems to require a multiclass. I notice it's also available to Warlocks, and wonder if there's a lock build where SS makes a lot of sense.
Sorlock setups that are designed around quicken spell to cast Eldritch Blast twice per round, plus a trick to make this work at close ranges such as crossbow expert? Assuming Agonizing Blast, a level 12 setup would be doing 3d10+6d8+15 (58.5) round 1 and twice that in subsequent rounds.
Yeah, I resurrected this because I was also trying to figure out why Clerics even get Spirit Shroud, where it basically seems to require a multiclass. I notice it's also available to Warlocks, and wonder if there's a lock build where SS makes a lot of sense.
Sorlock setups that are designed around quicken spell to cast Eldritch Blast twice per round, plus a trick to make this work at close ranges such as crossbow expert? Assuming Agonizing Blast, a level 12 setup would be doing 3d10+6d8+15 (58.5) round 1 and twice that in subsequent rounds.
You actually don't need anything for close range. Spirit Shroud affects creatures within 10 ft of you, so you are perfectly fine staying 10 ft away and peppering them with Eldritch Blasts. However if you have something like Repelling Blast then a feat like Crossbow Expert could help with pushing back enemies that managed to get in your face without the risk of you triggering a Opportunity Attack. But this should be used on your last blast as once you push them they will be out of Spirit Shroud range.
Optimally Spirit Shroud works best with melee oriented lock builds.
Yeah, I resurrected this because I was also trying to figure out why Clerics even get Spirit Shroud, where it basically seems to require a multiclass. I notice it's also available to Warlocks, and wonder if there's a lock build where SS makes a lot of sense.
I mean it's not a terrible spell. In many ways it's an upgraded hex or hunter's mark. Spirit Guardians is just really, really good so it suffers in comparison.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It's available to Eldritch Knights at level 13 where they get their first level 3 spells. At that point the fighter has 3-4 attacks per turn. There it makes sense. The Eldritch Knight never get level 5 spells though, so they can't upcast to 2d8 damage per strike.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Hexblade Variant Human, Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master. Then use your two ASIs at 8 and 12 to maximize your Charisma.
Invocations: Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite, Lifedrinker.
Weapon: +1 Glaive.
At level 12 you get Lifedrinker for +5 necrotic, and you also have fifth level spell slots (since level 9) so you're getting 2D8 from Spirit Shroud.
You get two attacks with your glaive, and then the polearm master bonus attack.
If you use Hexblade's Curse on the target of your ire you're adding damage equivalent to your proficiency bonus (+4 at level 12).
So if you take the GWM penalty you add 10+5+5+4+1+2D8 to every damage roll you make. 25+2D8
So with your +1 Glaive at level 12 you're +9 to hit -5 for GWM for a total of +4. You have two attacks doing D10+25+2D8 damage, and your bonus attack of D4+25+2D8.
If you land them all that's 2D10+6D8+D4+75, or somewhere between 84 and 147 damage per round. You double the dice rolled on a critical of 19 or 20, and if you do critical you can pop your Eldritch Smite for 12D8 force damage on top.
Of course this is theorycrafting but it shows Hexblade can make some pretty serious figures with the right build. Spirit Shroud really only benefits classes with the largest number of attacks, and Hexblade does have a few nice things to stack on top of that.
Eldritch Knight gets multiattacks but it never gets level 5 spell slots without multiclassing, and Paladins get their fifth level slots at level 17.
Bladesinger does get multiattack and can get 7th and 9th level spell slots for up to 4D8 Spirit Shroud damage, but a strength based PAM/GWM build is not "normal" for a Bladesinger. Because Hexblade uses charisma for its pact weapons you don't have to sacrifice any of your spellcasting ability to pump up your melee score.
If you have the spell slots and the time . . .
Set up a Glyph of Warding with Spirit Guards (triggered as you see fit). This way when you trigger it on yourself, it requires no concentration.
Cast Spirit Shroud on yourself (concentration) then trigger the Glyph ( I usually use a spoken command work)
Like I said though, this takes time and spell slots you may not have. I have used this combo when we are preparing to lead hostiles into a trap.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
That Hexblade build is a little outdated and slow. Custom Lineage is the way to go nowadays. This allows you to start with 18 CHA (by grabbing a half feat) and by level 5 you can max out your CHA and attack 3 times with Thirsting Blade by summoning a Double Bladed Scimitar, its also a +1 weapon if you take Improved Pact Weapon as well. The beauty of this is you can still transition into GWM + Polearm Master with your levels 8 and 12 ASIs with the added benefit of hitting like a truck at level 5.
Man, I love Spirit Shroud! And I love to use it with the SW combo along with my Booming Blade Warhammer attack. As a sorc/fighter/cleric combo, having the flexibility to change the cold damage to something else (like lightning) is clutch
Admittedly, though, I prefer to use my concentration on something else. SG also creates difficult terrain, which can be situationally beneficial.
Toss in a BESTOW CURSE at 5th level to avoid the concentration requirement and an additional 1d8 damage or impose disADV on saves and it's even more effective. It's just not appropriate on every encounter/fight.
But SS certainly isn't bad. Depending on the AC of the target, making an attack roll may actually be preferable. For my S/F/C character, I'm all but guaranteed to hit at least 3 times using Guided Strike (twice) and Favored by the Gods (once). That's considerable. Situational, sure. But considerable nonetheless.
To be clear, the transition to GWM and/or Polearm Master wouldn't include the double bladed scimitar, you'd have to get a different weapon. Also be aware that you may get some flak from your DM, since is introduced in Eberron. The bonus attack from Polearm Master is baked in, though so that's a nice perk.
The usual rabbit hole that gets followed with the DBS is as follows, but isn't likely to help the build. If you are an elf (Custom Lineage elves, YMMV per DM), then you can take the feat:
Feat: Revenant Blade
Prerequisite: Elf
You are descended from a master of the double-bladed scimitar, and some of that mastery has passed on to you. You gain the following benefits:
This does enable some shenanigans, but they aren't likely to be as useful to the build outlined, primarily enabling a +2 to AC (one from the feat and 1 from dex if you leave your dex odd) along with finesse weapon shenanigans like sneak attack or 2d4 strength based attacks with barb and rogue at advantage (though not triple advantage through Reckless Attacks because it specifically calls for strength based attacks while Elven Accuracy explicitly excludes strength based attacks).
The beauty of Pact of the Blade is you can change the form of your weapon, so you are guaranteed to have a +1 weapon of the type of your choosing (provided you took the Improved Pact Weapon invocation). Which makes the transition from Double Bladed Scimitar (DBS) to a Polearm a mere Action away.
And of course I would never advise anybody to just spring a weapon like DBS before consulting with their DM beforehand. Worse case scenario is you take Polearm Master as the Bonus feat instead and don't get to max CHA until level 8 which is not the end of the world. But if your DM is ok with you summoning a DBS then you have a ridiculously strong level 5 character.
And it can be used on small creatures without incurring disadvantage since it isn't a heavy weapon (the reason why it isn't optimal with GWM's power attack bullet, though it still qualifies for the bonus action bullet which would upgrade the BA to full power on a crit or kill. Devil's Sight/Darkness shenanigans are on the menu, though possibly delayed in that build for advantage. Going with some kind of elf or getting a DM to sign off on custom lineage qualifying for Elven Accuracy coupled with that combo gives the chances for an increased crit count before Hexblade's Curse is even considered and the possibility of dropping a creature with the build is reasonable, especially if you are willing to poach kills or take Green Flame Blade and luck into a nearly dead creature within 5 ft of another enemy.
Don't worry too much about dropping Spiritual Weapon. It's not god-like. It can be good but you need a long combat to actually get real value and any turns it isn't attacking because it's out of range with its weak 20 ft movement speed, or someone else killed the monster it was next to, or you need to cast Healing Word (or another BA spell) is just lost and unrecoverable damage. It takes a minimum of three rounds (three attacks assuming it attacks every turn) to beat an up-cast Guiding Bolt and that damage is spread out over a longer period of time (more so if it misses turns due to above actions) during which you might have killed something much sooner with the GB and avoided whatever damage it dealt. And if you have Rogues and Paladins that advantage from GB can have a bigger impact.
I'm not pushing GB as an alternative, just pointing out a comparison to show that SW isn't the god-like end-all be-all spell that people make it out to be. Don't even bother using it unless you know it's going to be a long combat and you really need to watch your situations in order to make it actually good. Several weak enemies spread around? Not good for SW since other players may be killing its intended targets leaving it out of range for a turn. Big open area with enemies spread out? Terrible situation for SW. Any reductions in efficiency like this really kill the spell and you'd have gotten more mileage out of just casting GB or something else. You really need big enemies that are going to last for several turns and the closer the quarters the better.
It's situational. If a cleric opens combat with a Channel Divinity or another non-spell Action, dropping in SW as a Bonus Action in the first round is a pretty good use of that economy - especially early in combat when Healing Word usually isn't necessary. Sometimes I'd rather take my chances with 3 attacks dealing 1d8+5 than one attack dealing 5d6 when I want to pace out more reliable damage in a big fight against a single big target -- especially since it attacks the turn you cast it.
I don't think SW is god-like, as some people think it is. But, to say it isn't one of the most useful tools in a Clerics kit is way underselling it.
At level 5, Spiritual Weapon plus Sacred Flame does the same damage (in a single turn) as Guiding Bolt cast with a second level spell slot.
Hexblade is the obvious choice. And Spirit Shroud scales well, so it will level up with your spell slots.
Sorlock setups that are designed around quicken spell to cast Eldritch Blast twice per round, plus a trick to make this work at close ranges such as crossbow expert? Assuming Agonizing Blast, a level 12 setup would be doing 3d10+6d8+15 (58.5) round 1 and twice that in subsequent rounds.
You actually don't need anything for close range. Spirit Shroud affects creatures within 10 ft of you, so you are perfectly fine staying 10 ft away and peppering them with Eldritch Blasts. However if you have something like Repelling Blast then a feat like Crossbow Expert could help with pushing back enemies that managed to get in your face without the risk of you triggering a Opportunity Attack. But this should be used on your last blast as once you push them they will be out of Spirit Shroud range.
Optimally Spirit Shroud works best with melee oriented lock builds.
Melee warlock doesn't have any way of attacking 8x/turn.
Who does, besides level 20 fighters (and only when they use action surge)?
Any level 17 Sorlock.
As I said in the previous post, 'Sorlock setups that are designed around quicken spell to cast Eldritch Blast twice per round'
Max attacks in one turn is actually over 20 (action surge upcast Scorching Ray)