^^^ I think you both hit great points. I reckon it will all come down too just how well WoTC lay this out in the core rule books. Intent is everything!
There is no need to cloud the PHB with a choice that upsets people playing the current assimar if this is the route they want to go they could change up the options to let shifters maintain a permanent or semi permanent animal face of their choice.
It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB.
You think so? Because from where I'm sitting, it would be an additional $49.99 USD for those players. Or I guess however much a single race costs on Beyond, provided they don't want any of the supplemental writing and they're using Beyond.
It’s like salt in a stew. You can always add more, you can’t take it out. It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB. If they’re in the PHB it makes it harder to play “my” game and means I’m stuck playing “yours.”
The Ravnica and Theros books forbid a lot of PHB races from being played in the setting with no problem. I don't think ignoring PHB races is that hard. At least, it hasn't been with my players. I just told them "Dwarves don't exist on Ravnica, so you can't play one" and they chose to be a Centaur instead.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ardlings have a stupid name (it's somehow dumber than "Tea-Fling"), a weak concept, and are based on some of my least favorite Celestial creatures from previous editions (Guardinals, which also have a dumb name and dumber concept). But I don't have a problem with them being in the PHB, because if I don't want them in my Eberron game because they don't exist there, I'll just not include them.
It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB.
You think so? Because from where I'm sitting, it would be an additional $49.99 USD for those players. Or I guess however much a single race costs on Beyond, provided they don't want any of the supplemental writing and they're using Beyond.
Two points:
I wrote “easier,” not “cheaper.”
So in other words it would be the exact same as adding anything else from a supplement to one’s game.
It’s like salt in a stew. You can always add more, you can’t take it out. It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB. If they’re in the PHB it makes it harder to play “my” game and means I’m stuck playing “yours.”
The Ravnica and Theros books forbid a lot of PHB races from being played in the setting with no problem. I don't think ignoring PHB races is that hard. At least, it hasn't been with my players. I just told them "Dwarves don't exist on Ravnica, so you can't play one" and they chose to be a Centaur instead.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ardlings have a stupid name (it's somehow dumber than "Tea-Fling"), a weak concept, and are based on some of my least favorite Celestial creatures from previous editions (Guardinals, which also have a dumb name and dumber concept). But I don't have a problem with them being in the PHB, because if I don't want them in my Eberron game because they don't exist there, I'll just not include them.
I think the PHB races should be the more “generic” options (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.) and leave the more exotic stuff to supplemental books. But that’s just me.
You know, I feel there's an approach here that could be used to accommodate everyone so it becomes a pantry rather than a stew, i.e. having a section for "standard" races, one for extraplanar races, exotic races, a section for building half-races, etc. Unfortunately, that'll probably be either a bigger or more drastically reorganized book that WotC really wants to make...
I dunno, they say they're definitely going to significantly revise the DMG. I don't see them saying the PHB is immune to innovative re-structuring.
When I became aware of the Ardling "controversy" my take was they should list races/lineages/origins as "mundane", have a system for more diverse mundane/worldly origins (parentage or family trees of different parentage) and that system would also include a branch for "fantastic/planar touched origins". Of course, it's not a simple task. Would dragonborn, for instance be a mundane worldly race or something more wondrous in origin? To many it's a world building question.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB.
You think so? Because from where I'm sitting, it would be an additional $49.99 USD for those players. Or I guess however much a single race costs on Beyond, provided they don't want any of the supplemental writing and they're using Beyond.
I wrote “easier,” not “cheaper.”
What is money, if not an abstraction of the value of labor? :)
It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB.
You think so? Because from where I'm sitting, it would be an additional $49.99 USD for those players. Or I guess however much a single race costs on Beyond, provided they don't want any of the supplemental writing and they're using Beyond.
I wrote “easier,” not “cheaper.”
What is money, if not an abstraction of the value of labor? :)
It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB.
You think so? Because from where I'm sitting, it would be an additional $49.99 USD for those players. Or I guess however much a single race costs on Beyond, provided they don't want any of the supplemental writing and they're using Beyond.
I wrote “easier,” not “cheaper.”
What is money, if not an abstraction of the value of labor? :)
It’s like salt in a stew. You can always add more, you can’t take it out. It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB. If they’re in the PHB it makes it harder to play “my” game and means I’m stuck playing “yours.”
The Ravnica and Theros books forbid a lot of PHB races from being played in the setting with no problem. I don't think ignoring PHB races is that hard. At least, it hasn't been with my players. I just told them "Dwarves don't exist on Ravnica, so you can't play one" and they chose to be a Centaur instead.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ardlings have a stupid name (it's somehow dumber than "Tea-Fling"), a weak concept, and are based on some of my least favorite Celestial creatures from previous editions (Guardinals, which also have a dumb name and dumber concept). But I don't have a problem with them being in the PHB, because if I don't want them in my Eberron game because they don't exist there, I'll just not include them.
I think the PHB races should be the more “generic” options (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.) and leave the more exotic stuff to supplemental books. But that’s just me.
"Generic" depends on campaign setting. What might be "generic" in one setting (Changelings in Eberron, Tieflings in Planescape) might be "exotic" in another (Tieflings in Eberron, Changelings in the Forgotten Realms).
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
It’s like salt in a stew. You can always add more, you can’t take it out. It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB. If they’re in the PHB it makes it harder to play “my” game and means I’m stuck playing “yours.”
The Ravnica and Theros books forbid a lot of PHB races from being played in the setting with no problem. I don't think ignoring PHB races is that hard. At least, it hasn't been with my players. I just told them "Dwarves don't exist on Ravnica, so you can't play one" and they chose to be a Centaur instead.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ardlings have a stupid name (it's somehow dumber than "Tea-Fling"), a weak concept, and are based on some of my least favorite Celestial creatures from previous editions (Guardinals, which also have a dumb name and dumber concept). But I don't have a problem with them being in the PHB, because if I don't want them in my Eberron game because they don't exist there, I'll just not include them.
I think the PHB races should be the more “generic” options (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.) and leave the more exotic stuff to supplemental books. But that’s just me.
"Generic" depends on campaign setting. What might be "generic" in one setting (Changelings in Eberron, Tieflings in Planescape) might be "exotic" in another (Tieflings in Eberron, Changelings in the Forgotten Realms).
You know I mean the most universally generic. Not generic to any one specific setting or another, the ones most generic to the most settings. That means, by my estimate, neither Changelings nor Tieflings should be in the PHB. Hey, I’m excluding my own personal favorite races here too (Thri-kreen), keep that in mind.
ok, but what does this say about how the core books might be presenting D&D? Are the WoTC team looking to show in the PHB (and other core books), rather than just in supplementary books (!), that D&D can be a widely diverse game? Not just a Lord of the Rings flavour, which it always was, but also something akin to some of the recent books like Wildemount and Theros? Maybe that's a good idea, that is to present the possibility that the game need not be, well, Lord of the Rings?
Hey, I think that's a good goal to have. I hope they create a tag line something like; Play your game.
It’s like salt in a stew. You can always add more, you can’t take it out.
That analogy makes absolutely no sense. Of course you can take them out.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
All in all, I wonder if the Ardlings were snuck into this playtest, not for the PHB, but for the Planescape setting at the end of next year. There's historical precedence for this with other playtest material, and while this is explicitly OneD&D playtest material, Planescape is probably the release before the new PHB.
All in all, I wonder if the Ardlings were snuck into this playtest, not for the PHB, but for the Planescape setting at the end of next year. There's historical precedence for this with other playtest material, and while this is explicitly OneD&D playtest material, Planescape is probably the release before the new PHB.
I have been kind of wondering about this. It seems weird to make up a whole new race to put into the PHB considering how many there are to choose from that have been around for multiple editions of the game.
That's been speculated, and their alignment distribution seems to gel well with some of the planescape esque feats we've seen recently too. Heck, maybe the Tieflings will be in that book too since they're similarly diversified over lower planes as well.
Planescape is due for 2023, definitely ahead of the new PHB.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It’s like salt in a stew. You can always add more, you can’t take it out. It would be infinitely easier for players who want Ardlings in their game to add them from a supplement than it will be for me to remove them from the game if they are in the PHB. If they’re in the PHB it makes it harder to play “my” game and means I’m stuck playing “yours.”
The Ravnica and Theros books forbid a lot of PHB races from being played in the setting with no problem. I don't think ignoring PHB races is that hard. At least, it hasn't been with my players. I just told them "Dwarves don't exist on Ravnica, so you can't play one" and they chose to be a Centaur instead.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ardlings have a stupid name (it's somehow dumber than "Tea-Fling"), a weak concept, and are based on some of my least favorite Celestial creatures from previous editions (Guardinals, which also have a dumb name and dumber concept). But I don't have a problem with them being in the PHB, because if I don't want them in my Eberron game because they don't exist there, I'll just not include them.
I think the PHB races should be the more “generic” options (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.) and leave the more exotic stuff to supplemental books. But that’s just me.
"Generic" depends on campaign setting. What might be "generic" in one setting (Changelings in Eberron, Tieflings in Planescape) might be "exotic" in another (Tieflings in Eberron, Changelings in the Forgotten Realms).
You know I mean the most universally generic. Not generic to any one specific setting or another, the ones most generic to the most settings. That means, by my estimate, neither Changelings nor Tieflings should be in the PHB. Hey, I’m excluding my own personal favorite races here too (Thri-kreen), keep that in mind.
But that really just an arbitrary decision of what is universal and/or generic. Someone at some point has to define the term, if you want to go Tolkien, that’s cool. But really, there’s no objective measure for what is universal in a game like D&D with its multiverse of worlds which barely interact with each other, if they interact at all.
Dittoing Xalthu. What if you had a world where humans and tabaxi were the common species and elves were exotic? Basically "generic fantasy" is something the "fantasy" TTRPG field seems to be drifting from in general and D&D seems to be trying to somehow play catch up. The problem is they still have this thing for "fixed" races whereas lineages and origins seem to be a popular trend elsewhere. I honestly don't understand why the One D&D race options seems to have abandoned advancing the steps made in Tasha's and the Gothlines. It seems retrograde to popular contemporary conceptions of fantasy.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Kind of amazed how strongly people care which book something is in. It's all official material, you still have to ban them at your table if you don't want them even if they're in MMM.
I don't dislike or like them yet. Need to see how my group would play with them (we are quite RP heavy) but yeah, not against them from the offset really.
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^^^ I think you both hit great points. I reckon it will all come down too just how well WoTC lay this out in the core rule books. Intent is everything!
I agree with the OP
There is no need to cloud the PHB with a choice that upsets people playing the current assimar if this is the route they want to go they could change up the options to let shifters maintain a permanent or semi permanent animal face of their choice.
You think so? Because from where I'm sitting, it would be an additional $49.99 USD for those players. Or I guess however much a single race costs on Beyond, provided they don't want any of the supplemental writing and they're using Beyond.
The Ravnica and Theros books forbid a lot of PHB races from being played in the setting with no problem. I don't think ignoring PHB races is that hard. At least, it hasn't been with my players. I just told them "Dwarves don't exist on Ravnica, so you can't play one" and they chose to be a Centaur instead.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ardlings have a stupid name (it's somehow dumber than "Tea-Fling"), a weak concept, and are based on some of my least favorite Celestial creatures from previous editions (Guardinals, which also have a dumb name and dumber concept). But I don't have a problem with them being in the PHB, because if I don't want them in my Eberron game because they don't exist there, I'll just not include them.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Two points:
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I think the PHB races should be the more “generic” options (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.) and leave the more exotic stuff to supplemental books. But that’s just me.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I dunno, they say they're definitely going to significantly revise the DMG. I don't see them saying the PHB is immune to innovative re-structuring.
When I became aware of the Ardling "controversy" my take was they should list races/lineages/origins as "mundane", have a system for more diverse mundane/worldly origins (parentage or family trees of different parentage) and that system would also include a branch for "fantastic/planar touched origins". Of course, it's not a simple task. Would dragonborn, for instance be a mundane worldly race or something more wondrous in origin? To many it's a world building question.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
What is money, if not an abstraction of the value of labor? :)
How existential.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
No, that's capitalism.
No, this is Patrick.
"Generic" depends on campaign setting. What might be "generic" in one setting (Changelings in Eberron, Tieflings in Planescape) might be "exotic" in another (Tieflings in Eberron, Changelings in the Forgotten Realms).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You know I mean the most universally generic. Not generic to any one specific setting or another, the ones most generic to the most settings. That means, by my estimate, neither Changelings nor Tieflings should be in the PHB. Hey, I’m excluding my own personal favorite races here too (Thri-kreen), keep that in mind.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That analogy makes absolutely no sense. Of course you can take them out.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
All in all, I wonder if the Ardlings were snuck into this playtest, not for the PHB, but for the Planescape setting at the end of next year. There's historical precedence for this with other playtest material, and while this is explicitly OneD&D playtest material, Planescape is probably the release before the new PHB.
I have been kind of wondering about this. It seems weird to make up a whole new race to put into the PHB considering how many there are to choose from that have been around for multiple editions of the game.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That's been speculated, and their alignment distribution seems to gel well with some of the planescape esque feats we've seen recently too. Heck, maybe the Tieflings will be in that book too since they're similarly diversified over lower planes as well.
Planescape is due for 2023, definitely ahead of the new PHB.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
But that really just an arbitrary decision of what is universal and/or generic. Someone at some point has to define the term, if you want to go Tolkien, that’s cool. But really, there’s no objective measure for what is universal in a game like D&D with its multiverse of worlds which barely interact with each other, if they interact at all.
Dittoing Xalthu. What if you had a world where humans and tabaxi were the common species and elves were exotic? Basically "generic fantasy" is something the "fantasy" TTRPG field seems to be drifting from in general and D&D seems to be trying to somehow play catch up. The problem is they still have this thing for "fixed" races whereas lineages and origins seem to be a popular trend elsewhere. I honestly don't understand why the One D&D race options seems to have abandoned advancing the steps made in Tasha's and the Gothlines. It seems retrograde to popular contemporary conceptions of fantasy.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Kind of amazed how strongly people care which book something is in. It's all official material, you still have to ban them at your table if you don't want them even if they're in MMM.
I don't dislike or like them yet. Need to see how my group would play with them (we are quite RP heavy) but yeah, not against them from the offset really.