Yes, a lot of people really dislike the removal of crit damage, and I agree that it's extremely un-fun.
But the worst part about this is the constant rerolls that are added to the game from all the inspiration on 20s.
Anyone who has played with several lucky feats in a party, or slivery barbs can tell you that constantly choosing reroll really bogs down combats. Having any 20 in the game provide inspiration makes it so there will be a constant stream of rerolls. If you watch C3 of critical role you can see slivery barb being used and how disruptive at will rerolls can be to combats.
Inspiration can also be "farmed" in a way where the more checks you make the more 20s you are going to have. Social interactions, investigations etc. tend to be checks initiated by players. This means that DMs are going to have to play around the fact that any time a group going into a bunch of social interactions they are going to potentially go into the next combat with a bunch of inspiration.
This also brings up the issue of when you call to use the rerolls. DMs tend to try to move things along in combats so they don't get drawn out. When a PC fails a save for example, the DM usually starts to describe what happens. Now we are going to have to wait/ask if they want to use inspiration, or be ok with the PCs knowing what the consequences of failing are before they use the inspiration.
Basically, it feels like we are trading big epic crit damage for bogging the game down with rerolls.
I do not like a few things about the new inspiration but I'd have to point out, it doesn't allow re-rolls, you have to declare you are using inspiration before you roll any dice. So you can't roll, see you failed and say "I use inspiration", like you can with the Lucky feat.
I do not like a few things about the new inspiration but I'd have to point out, it doesn't allow re-rolls, you have to declare you are using inspiration before you roll any dice. So you can't roll, see you failed and say "I use inspiration", like you can with the Lucky feat.
Eh... I am really not a fan of reactionary fear mongering.
If you've got the time to spam a lot of ability checks, you've got the time to use Musician. Problem solved.
If you are in the middle of dungeon delving, and there's no time for Musician? Then you probably have more on your plate than looking for that 5% chance of getting inspiration.
And all this assumes bad faith players. Most players are more interested in having fun doing the game than bogging it down for a tiny edge.
Honestly, as a bard player, I can't tell you how often people just forget that I gave them bardic inspiration and it sits there unused. Or back in 3e/PF where people didn't add the Inspire Courage bonus in.
Silvery Barb is an annoying spell, but that's because it halts gameplay with a reaction, forces a reroll (by the DM usually). Then choosing someone to get advantage. That part takes time. Actually rolling advantage is quick and easy. Pick up two d20s instead of one, and roll.
Eh... I am really not a fan of reactionary fear mongering.
If you've got the time to spam a lot of ability checks, you've got the time to use Musician. Problem solved.
If you are in the middle of dungeon delving, and there's no time for Musician? Then you probably have more on your plate than looking for that 5% chance of getting inspiration.
And all this assumes bad faith players. Most players are more interested in having fun doing the game than bogging it down for a tiny edge.
Honestly, as a bard player, I can't tell you how often people just forget that I gave them bardic inspiration and it sits there unused. Or back in 3e/PF where people didn't add the Inspire Courage bonus in.
Silvery Barb is an annoying spell, but that's because it halts gameplay with a reaction, forces a reroll (by the DM usually). Then choosing someone to get advantage. That part takes time. Actually rolling advantage is quick and easy. Pick up two d20s instead of one, and roll.
If you play in person or maybe on line give them a card or an email that says you have bardic inspiration, that way they can see they have it every round and decide if they want to use it. Also next time I play in person I plan on having 3 poker chips or cards with the words, action, reaction and bonus action on them and then I put them before my PC so all can see what things I have done in that round.
In fact the above idea could be added to any play online software with the GM advancing the round by a push of a button.
Saying it's not a great mechanic is something I can agree with. Seems unnecessary to me and it's another thing to remember that we don't need to. Simple is good.
But the idea that people are going to suddenly start farming for inspiration, and that it's going to majorly affect combat? Advantage is already easy to get.
Heck, just got easier with the unarmed-to-knock-prone rule everyone has. Free advantage for all.
Saying it's not a great mechanic is something I can agree with. Seems unnecessary to me and it's another thing to remember that we don't need to. Simple is good.
But the idea that people are going to suddenly start farming for inspiration, and that it's going to majorly affect combat? Advantage is already easy to get.
Heck, just got easier with the unarmed-to-knock-prone rule everyone has. Free advantage for all.
Yes, monks now extremely viable since after your first hit the next 2/3 hits are always with advantage, which means 9.75% chance per attack to get inspiration to use on the first attack where the enemy isn't prone, works perfectly together!
But the idea that people are going to suddenly start farming for inspiration, and that it's going to majorly affect combat? Advantage is already easy to get.
Heck, just got easier with the unarmed-to-knock-prone rule everyone has. Free advantage for all.
Personally, I don't like this trend towards every roll always having advantage. If they want to make it easier to hit (which is another trend I noticed in the UA, there seems to be a line of thinking that players must always win/succeed), an adjustment to the AC of creatures in the CR table (Yes, I know it isn't an exact science) would achieve the same affect with less complexity (and arguably, easier to balance as I can now trade AC for HP and players can play wack-a-mob to their hearts content). And combat isn't even the part that I'm concerned about, as you say, advantage is already strewn all over the place in combat. It's the out of combat scenarios I am more concerned about.
If the problem was, "People are not using inspiration" - what root cause was conducted that the solution identified was, "make it a mechanic". I can think of half a dozen reasons why it isn't used, and I think it's telling that the houserule I most commonly see of inspiration is allowing the roll to occur afterwards.
To me that speaks to more of a problem with how inspiration is currently valued, in its current implementation than just a "whoopsie I forgot" on behalf of all DMs, everywhere.
Yes, monks now extremely viable since after your first hit the next 2/3 hits are always with advantage, which means 9.75% chance per attack to get inspiration to use on the first attack where the enemy isn't prone, works perfectly together!
It's is fun. Too bad focus-fire means that you're always the set up, never the finisher.
Personally, I don't like this trend towards every roll always having advantage. If they want to make it easier to hit (which is another trend I noticed in the UA, there seems to be a line of thinking that players must always win/succeed), an adjustment to the AC of creatures in the CR table (Yes, I know it isn't an exact science) would achieve the same affect with less complexity (and arguably, easier to balance as I can now trade AC for HP and players can play wack-a-mob to their hearts content). And combat isn't even the part that I'm concerned about, as you say, advantage is already strewn all over the place in combat. It's the out of combat scenarios I am more concerned about.
If the problem was, "People are not using inspiration" - what root cause was conducted that the solution identified was, "make it a mechanic". I can think of half a dozen reasons why it isn't used, and I think it's telling that the houserule I most commonly see of inspiration is allowing the roll to occur afterwards.
To me that speaks to more of a problem with how inspiration is currently valued, in its current implementation than just a "whoopsie I forgot" on behalf of all DMs, everywhere.
You're totally valid there, with your feels about advantage being everywhere.
But I'm going to need to disagree with you that out of combat needs Inspiration to trivially generate advantage. Most notably.... The help action. Have a familiar? Practically everything I do gets advantage. As a bard? Take guidance, use inspiration (bardic variety) and Help with Jack. Advantage +2d4. I can make lots of people awesome.
In my personal experience, people that are getting in the grove of roleplaying tend to not think of rewards for it right away; they're having fun getting into character and talking mechanics breaks the groove. It's only after the scene/session that rewards come out (usually in the form of bonus XP, but I've seen others). So it's too late to reward and... Inspiration just fell through the cracks.
You could argue that it's lost its raison d'etre. I will. But I don't know if I will say forgetting has anything to do with being valued or not. Just that roleplaying rewards are traditionally tricky.
But I'm going to need to disagree with you that out of combat needs Inspiration to trivially generate advantage. Most notably.... The help action. Have a familiar? Practically everything I do gets advantage. As a bard? Take guidance, use inspiration (bardic variety) and Help with Jack. Advantage +2d4. I can make lots of people awesome.
To clarify, I don't think out of combat scenarios need inspiration, if anything, I much prefer your example above where the party uses resources, class abilities or can give me an example of how they use the help action. To me, all of those things are far better ways to generate advantage/a buff to a roll than inspiration as they allow for player choices to matter. Inspiration feels lazy in comparison.
But then, I'm of the school of thought that the party narrates what they are trying to do first, then we work out the check second. So you don't "take the help action" outside of combat, you explain how two of you are doing something, and then we decide if the help action applies.
Based on my experience playing over the last several years, I think people are overestimating the frequency of nat20s and therefore Inspirations flying around. Maybe y'all's experience is different, I dunno.
Yes, a lot of people really dislike the removal of crit damage, and I agree that it's extremely un-fun.
But the worst part about this is the constant rerolls that are added to the game from all the inspiration on 20s.
Anyone who has played with several lucky feats in a party, or slivery barbs can tell you that constantly choosing reroll really bogs down combats. Having any 20 in the game provide inspiration makes it so there will be a constant stream of rerolls. If you watch C3 of critical role you can see slivery barb being used and how disruptive at will rerolls can be to combats.
Inspiration can also be "farmed" in a way where the more checks you make the more 20s you are going to have. Social interactions, investigations etc. tend to be checks initiated by players. This means that DMs are going to have to play around the fact that any time a group going into a bunch of social interactions they are going to potentially go into the next combat with a bunch of inspiration.
This also brings up the issue of when you call to use the rerolls. DMs tend to try to move things along in combats so they don't get drawn out. When a PC fails a save for example, the DM usually starts to describe what happens. Now we are going to have to wait/ask if they want to use inspiration, or be ok with the PCs knowing what the consequences of failing are before they use the inspiration.
Basically, it feels like we are trading big epic crit damage for bogging the game down with rerolls.
I think you might be confused.
Inspiration doesn't grant a re-roll. You declare you're using it to give yourself advantage on the D20 Test before rolling the die. It's right there in the description.
INSPIRATION
When you have Inspiration, you can expend it to give yourself Advantage on a d20 Test. You must decide to do so before rolling the die.
As for the weakened critical hits (only working with damage dice from weapons and unarmed strikes), being able to potentially land critical hits more often softens the blow of not having such massive critical hits as before. Which was still possible because advantage isn't difficult to acquire. It just means working as a team.
If you're honestly worried about rerolling dice slowing down the game, look to halflings (Luck) and the new iterations of two feats: Healer and Lucky.
And players can't "farm" Inspiration by rolling the d20. The player doesn't decide when they roll; the DM does. Again, this is right in the description.
D20 TEST
The term d20 Test encompasses the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws. If something in the game affects d20 Tests, it affects all three of those rolls.
The DM determines whether a d20 Test is warranted in any given circumstance. To be warranted, a d20 Test must have a target number no less than 5 and no greater than 30.
This sets up two basic expectations: the DM decides when you get to roll, and the range the target number must fall within. That's it.
I'm not super worried about farming which I doubt anyone would have fun doing or bothering to do. Still, I wish they'd kept it as a role-play mechanic as my group sort of treats it as a way to reward a really cool act and save up to grant a spontaneous advantage in a really tense or high-stakes moment in the game (e.g. a character is about to die unless they make this roll or somebody is about to have their big moment).
It's like extra plot armour to reward the players for being interesting characters or engaging in the game, which is the way I like it. I don't like how easily and systematically they plan on granting it or how they make it fade with a long rest so it can't be saved for a special or vital moment. It seems like they're shifting away in some ways from being a role-play-based game to more of a systematic pen-and-paper video game (see also: the Crafter feat).
xxOnionLordxx, I think you hit the nail on the head of how I feel about Inspiration, it's not Inspiration anymore, it's just another advantage mechanic and loses all of what Inspiration was.
This is the intention. I didn't realize there was this long video of Jeremy Crawford talking about these UA changes, but here are the comments about inspiration: JC on Inspiration Changes
I think JC really hit the nail on the head. While for some, it's a fun RP mechanic (and still can be), for many it's just something you mark on your sheet and forget about until somebody brings it up again. I am almost always forgetting that I have inspiration, and bringing it more into focus by adding other ways to gain it will help it see more use.
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I think JC really hit the nail on the head. While for some, it's a fun RP mechanic (and still can be), for many it's just something you mark on your sheet and forget about until somebody brings it up again. I am almost always forgetting that I have inspiration, and bringing it more into focus by adding other ways to gain it will help it see more use.
It is a mechanic that has seen little use through the life of 5e and the game has not suffered for it. I think it would be better to drop it and come up with a better idea rather than try to shoehorn it in.
Yes, a lot of people really dislike the removal of crit damage, and I agree that it's extremely un-fun.
But the worst part about this is the constant rerolls that are added to the game from all the inspiration on 20s.
Anyone who has played with several lucky feats in a party, or slivery barbs can tell you that constantly choosing reroll really bogs down combats. Having any 20 in the game provide inspiration makes it so there will be a constant stream of rerolls. If you watch C3 of critical role you can see slivery barb being used and how disruptive at will rerolls can be to combats.
Inspiration can also be "farmed" in a way where the more checks you make the more 20s you are going to have. Social interactions, investigations etc. tend to be checks initiated by players. This means that DMs are going to have to play around the fact that any time a group going into a bunch of social interactions they are going to potentially go into the next combat with a bunch of inspiration.
This also brings up the issue of when you call to use the rerolls. DMs tend to try to move things along in combats so they don't get drawn out. When a PC fails a save for example, the DM usually starts to describe what happens. Now we are going to have to wait/ask if they want to use inspiration, or be ok with the PCs knowing what the consequences of failing are before they use the inspiration.
Basically, it feels like we are trading big epic crit damage for bogging the game down with rerolls.
I do not like a few things about the new inspiration but I'd have to point out, it doesn't allow re-rolls, you have to declare you are using inspiration before you roll any dice. So you can't roll, see you failed and say "I use inspiration", like you can with the Lucky feat.
ah I missed that
Eh... I am really not a fan of reactionary fear mongering.
If you've got the time to spam a lot of ability checks, you've got the time to use Musician. Problem solved.
If you are in the middle of dungeon delving, and there's no time for Musician? Then you probably have more on your plate than looking for that 5% chance of getting inspiration.
And all this assumes bad faith players. Most players are more interested in having fun doing the game than bogging it down for a tiny edge.
Honestly, as a bard player, I can't tell you how often people just forget that I gave them bardic inspiration and it sits there unused. Or back in 3e/PF where people didn't add the Inspire Courage bonus in.
Silvery Barb is an annoying spell, but that's because it halts gameplay with a reaction, forces a reroll (by the DM usually). Then choosing someone to get advantage. That part takes time. Actually rolling advantage is quick and easy. Pick up two d20s instead of one, and roll.
If you play in person or maybe on line give them a card or an email that says you have bardic inspiration, that way they can see they have it every round and decide if they want to use it. Also next time I play in person I plan on having 3 poker chips or cards with the words, action, reaction and bonus action on them and then I put them before my PC so all can see what things I have done in that round.
In fact the above idea could be added to any play online software with the GM advancing the round by a push of a button.
Right but this argument still goes to it not being a great mechanic that can be redundant, and there for unrewarding because it doesn't stack,
The whole thing seems clunky.
I'm not assuming "bad faith players". It's just the nature of checks, social checks, group stealth checks, perception checks etc.
Saying it's not a great mechanic is something I can agree with. Seems unnecessary to me and it's another thing to remember that we don't need to. Simple is good.
But the idea that people are going to suddenly start farming for inspiration, and that it's going to majorly affect combat? Advantage is already easy to get.
Heck, just got easier with the unarmed-to-knock-prone rule everyone has. Free advantage for all.
Yes, monks now extremely viable since after your first hit the next 2/3 hits are always with advantage, which means 9.75% chance per attack to get inspiration to use on the first attack where the enemy isn't prone, works perfectly together!
Personally, I don't like this trend towards every roll always having advantage. If they want to make it easier to hit (which is another trend I noticed in the UA, there seems to be a line of thinking that players must always win/succeed), an adjustment to the AC of creatures in the CR table (Yes, I know it isn't an exact science) would achieve the same affect with less complexity (and arguably, easier to balance as I can now trade AC for HP and players can play wack-a-mob to their hearts content). And combat isn't even the part that I'm concerned about, as you say, advantage is already strewn all over the place in combat. It's the out of combat scenarios I am more concerned about.
If the problem was, "People are not using inspiration" - what root cause was conducted that the solution identified was, "make it a mechanic". I can think of half a dozen reasons why it isn't used, and I think it's telling that the houserule I most commonly see of inspiration is allowing the roll to occur afterwards.
To me that speaks to more of a problem with how inspiration is currently valued, in its current implementation than just a "whoopsie I forgot" on behalf of all DMs, everywhere.
It's is fun. Too bad focus-fire means that you're always the set up, never the finisher.
You're totally valid there, with your feels about advantage being everywhere.
But I'm going to need to disagree with you that out of combat needs Inspiration to trivially generate advantage. Most notably.... The help action. Have a familiar? Practically everything I do gets advantage. As a bard? Take guidance, use inspiration (bardic variety) and Help with Jack. Advantage +2d4. I can make lots of people awesome.
In my personal experience, people that are getting in the grove of roleplaying tend to not think of rewards for it right away; they're having fun getting into character and talking mechanics breaks the groove. It's only after the scene/session that rewards come out (usually in the form of bonus XP, but I've seen others). So it's too late to reward and... Inspiration just fell through the cracks.
You could argue that it's lost its raison d'etre. I will. But I don't know if I will say forgetting has anything to do with being valued or not. Just that roleplaying rewards are traditionally tricky.
To clarify, I don't think out of combat scenarios need inspiration, if anything, I much prefer your example above where the party uses resources, class abilities or can give me an example of how they use the help action. To me, all of those things are far better ways to generate advantage/a buff to a roll than inspiration as they allow for player choices to matter. Inspiration feels lazy in comparison.
But then, I'm of the school of thought that the party narrates what they are trying to do first, then we work out the check second. So you don't "take the help action" outside of combat, you explain how two of you are doing something, and then we decide if the help action applies.
It's nuance I suppose.
Meanwhile, big epic crit damage: snake eyes.
Important thing: to warrant a test, there needs no be something at stake. So senseless rolling a skill for inspiration does not work.
Based on my experience playing over the last several years, I think people are overestimating the frequency of nat20s and therefore Inspirations flying around. Maybe y'all's experience is different, I dunno.
I think you might be confused.
Inspiration doesn't grant a re-roll. You declare you're using it to give yourself advantage on the D20 Test before rolling the die. It's right there in the description.
As for the weakened critical hits (only working with damage dice from weapons and unarmed strikes), being able to potentially land critical hits more often softens the blow of not having such massive critical hits as before. Which was still possible because advantage isn't difficult to acquire. It just means working as a team.
If you're honestly worried about rerolling dice slowing down the game, look to halflings (Luck) and the new iterations of two feats: Healer and Lucky.
And players can't "farm" Inspiration by rolling the d20. The player doesn't decide when they roll; the DM does. Again, this is right in the description.
This sets up two basic expectations: the DM decides when you get to roll, and the range the target number must fall within. That's it.
None of this should slow down the game.
I'm not super worried about farming which I doubt anyone would have fun doing or bothering to do. Still, I wish they'd kept it as a role-play mechanic as my group sort of treats it as a way to reward a really cool act and save up to grant a spontaneous advantage in a really tense or high-stakes moment in the game (e.g. a character is about to die unless they make this roll or somebody is about to have their big moment).
It's like extra plot armour to reward the players for being interesting characters or engaging in the game, which is the way I like it. I don't like how easily and systematically they plan on granting it or how they make it fade with a long rest so it can't be saved for a special or vital moment. It seems like they're shifting away in some ways from being a role-play-based game to more of a systematic pen-and-paper video game (see also: the Crafter feat).
xxOnionLordxx, I think you hit the nail on the head of how I feel about Inspiration, it's not Inspiration anymore, it's just another advantage mechanic and loses all of what Inspiration was.
This is the intention. I didn't realize there was this long video of Jeremy Crawford talking about these UA changes, but here are the comments about inspiration: JC on Inspiration Changes
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ModeratorI think JC really hit the nail on the head. While for some, it's a fun RP mechanic (and still can be), for many it's just something you mark on your sheet and forget about until somebody brings it up again. I am almost always forgetting that I have inspiration, and bringing it more into focus by adding other ways to gain it will help it see more use.
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It is a mechanic that has seen little use through the life of 5e and the game has not suffered for it. I think it would be better to drop it and come up with a better idea rather than try to shoehorn it in.
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