I finally had a chance to sit down and read part of this damned thing. Did anyone else notice the nerf to Sneak Attack?
and evasion
Evasion wasn't nerfed. The only change was that you don't take half damage when you're incapicated. Quite frankly, I think the previous rules make no sense, and this only a minor change not a major nerf anyway.
The rogue lies motionless as fire engulfs their unmoving body since they are unable to dodge out of the way. They take half damage.
I finally had a chance to sit down and read part of this damned thing. Did anyone else notice the nerf to Sneak Attack?
and evasion
Evasion wasn't nerfed. The only change was that you don't take half damage when you're incapicated. Quite frankly, I think the previous rules make no sense, and this only a minor change not a major nerf anyway.
The rogue lies motionless as fire engulfs their unmoving body since they are unable to dodge out of the way. They take half damage.
it comes 2 levels later.
True, but that's not a nerf to that specific feature. That's nerfing the class which is very different.
I finally had a chance to sit down and read part of this damned thing. Did anyone else notice the nerf to Sneak Attack?
and evasion
Evasion wasn't nerfed. The only change was that you don't take half damage when you're incapicated. Quite frankly, I think the previous rules make no sense, and this only a minor change not a major nerf anyway.
The rogue lies motionless as fire engulfs their unmoving body since they are unable to dodge out of the way. They take half damage.
it comes 2 levels later.
Because you get a sub class feat at level 6 instead, so you get Supreme Sneak at level 6 for Thief.
I finally had a chance to sit down and read part of this damned thing. Did anyone else notice the nerf to Sneak Attack?
and evasion
Evasion wasn't nerfed. The only change was that you don't take half damage when you're incapicated. Quite frankly, I think the previous rules make no sense, and this only a minor change not a major nerf anyway.
The rogue lies motionless as fire engulfs their unmoving body since they are unable to dodge out of the way. They take half damage.
it comes 2 levels later.
Because you get a sub class feat at level 6 instead, so you get Supreme Sneak at level 6 for Thief.
Yup. You get a subclass feature at 6th, and they had to bump back the rogues second expertise so they could have the subclasses at different levels. So I take back what I said earlier; This "nerf" is not even a nerf to the class, it's just changing the leveling slightly so the new subclasss work at the levels they are meant to.
something I did not notice before snuck in the influence action is that handle animal now works on monstrosities.
Based on the wording it also seems like Animal Handling is a Charisma skill now rather than WIS, which means warlocks and sorcerers are better at working with animals than rangers or druids. I hope that isn't the case.
I finally had a chance to sit down and read part of this damned thing. Did anyone else notice the nerf to Sneak Attack?
Yes, and if anything it needed a buff. Though the buff I want is more focused around what you can sneak attack with like improvised weapons(furniture), basically I'd change it to any non heavy attack as opposed to finesse. I want a club for knocking people out, some kind of choke out, or neck snap move. They made this cool evocative sneak attack you see in comics, literature, movies and are like nope all the fun options from those sources you can't do because we are hung up on rogues only using these select weapons for thematic purposes which really should be up to the player and not them.
The solution there is a Battle Master-like subclass -- or given the new setup, even something like a Rogue-only Feat -- that gives you additional options with your Sneak Attack, not adding a bunch of stuff into basic Sneak Attack
No, you should not need a feat or subclass to get a feature to work how it should work in the first place. Its like these dumb feats like keen mind that turn a worthless as an action action into a bonus action. That is crap design, don't make a rule to make it crap so a feat will have value.
But has anyone noticed how it's now WAY harder to force a flying creature to the ground? Prone, Grapple, anything that reduced flyspeed to 0 now has no effect on a flying creature, the only options are incapacitating them or restraining them which basically means any flying creature with legendary resistances is never getting forced to the ground.
I kind of think that is good, it was way too easy to knock enemies out of the sky. Flying should be a asset not a weakness.
But has anyone noticed how it's now WAY harder to force a flying creature to the ground? Prone, Grapple, anything that reduced flyspeed to 0 now has no effect on a flying creature, the only options are incapacitating them or restraining them which basically means any flying creature with legendary resistances is never getting forced to the ground.
Wait, where did you come to this conclusion? Grappling and knocking prone still reduce one's fly speed to 0, which means you don't have a fly speed anymore and you fall/stop flying. The Hover property is the only thing that explicitly says you stay in the air while incapacitated or restrained, which makes sense since you're not flapping limbs or anything to generate lift.
The "Speed of 0" section specifically states that having a zeroed speed also zeroes your special speeds, and the Prone condition specifically states that when you're prone your "..****y movement option is to crawl..." unless you stand up.
I finally had a chance to sit down and read part of this damned thing. Did anyone else notice the nerf to Sneak Attack?
and evasion
Evasion wasn't nerfed. The only change was that you don't take half damage when you're incapicated. Quite frankly, I think the previous rules make no sense, and this only a minor change not a major nerf anyway.
The rogue lies motionless as fire engulfs their unmoving body since they are unable to dodge out of the way. They take half damage.
it comes 2 levels later.
True, but that's not a nerf to that specific feature. That's nerfing the class which is very different.
It’s not a nerf to the class, they now finally get a second subclass feature before 9th gorram level, which is swell.
something I did not notice before snuck in the influence action is that handle animal now works on monstrosities.
Based on the wording it also seems like Animal Handling is a Charisma skill now rather than WIS, which means warlocks and sorcerers are better at working with animals than rangers or druids. I hope that isn't the case.
There were examples of both WIS (animal handling) and CHA (animal handling). Well, one each. Check Out Mount Handler feat. I would have thought it was a typo if it wasn't for the Jump rules, that let you go with STR (Athletics or Acrobats). Something is going on with how skill rolls work now.
What' seems to be going on is that you can use any skill with any attribute, but we no longer call for skill rolls, we call for Attribute rolls that a skill or a tool may add to. To influence someone, you make a CHA check, with a bonus from any appropriate skills or tools.
Based on the wording it also seems like Animal Handling is a Charisma skill now rather than WIS, which means warlocks and sorcerers are better at working with animals than rangers or druids. I hope that isn't the case.
There were examples of both WIS (animal handling) and CHA (animal handling). Well, one each. Check Out Mount Handler feat. I would have thought it was a typo if it wasn't for the Jump rules, that let you go with STR (Athletics or Acrobats). Something is going on with how skill rolls work now.
What' seems to be going on is that you can use any skill with any attribute, but we no longer call for skill rolls, we call for Attribute rolls that a skill or a tool may add to. To influence someone, you make a CHA check, with a bonus from any appropriate skills or tools.
That's my guess anyways.
Interesting, I didn't notice it in the feat section. Using another attribute for a skill check was always an optional rule, I guess they're just making it the default way you use certain skills now.
That said I am unsure how I feel about that. Especially in the context of Animal Handling, since the CHA use for the skill seems like it'd be significantly stronger than the WIS use for the skill despite it being a Wisdom focused skill.
something I did not notice before snuck in the influence action is that handle animal now works on monstrosities.
Under any competent DM it's always worked on monstrosities because it's never been Type based before. The new rule letting you use Animal Handling on e.g. a Yuan-Ti Abomination is incredibly bizarre. Animal Handling should be what you use on a creature that has no languages at all but can still be communicated with - so it should work on some monstrosities, sure, but also on, say, a wyvern, and it shouldn't work on monstrosities you can just talk to, like the aforementioned Yuan-Ti.
Eh, I could see Charisma (Animal Handling) make sense for a Yuan-Ti Abomination (but with a DC of 20 or higher). Snake dancing or appealing to their more animalistic side is an easy justification for that.
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Under any competent DM it's always worked on monstrosities because it's never been Type based before.
Be careful talking about "any competent DM" -- the idea that a skill named 'animal handling' works on mundane animals (i.e. beasts) is hardly peculiar. I would note that the current rules text doesn't actually say that animal handling works on all monstrosities, it just says that it only works on beasts and monstrosities (this is not to say I agree with even that; I would be perfectly fine with it working on a pegasus (celestial), blink dog (fey), or hell hound (fiend)).
Sad to see they removed one of the best feats in the game. I'm going to miss my beloved Mobile feat :(
seems the Speedster feet took 2 of the 3 abilities from Mobile.
We have only seen some 1st and 4th level feats so far the last ability from mobile ( not provoking OP attacks from a target you attacked ) might pop up in a higher level feat.
Not much change with the Rogue, Thief is improved a bit, but isn't really all that different.
Sorry, late to the party and just saw this thread, but I believe they did nerf Rogue as they can only get one sneak attack on their turn, not “a turn”. So no more multiple SA in a round, not that you could stack that many. Unless I read it wrong.
But has anyone noticed how it's now WAY harder to force a flying creature to the ground? Prone, Grapple, anything that reduced flyspeed to 0 now has no effect on a flying creature, the only options are incapacitating them or restraining them which basically means any flying creature with legendary resistances is never getting forced to the ground.
Wait, where did you come to this conclusion? Grappling and knocking prone still reduce one's fly speed to 0, which means you don't have a fly speed anymore and you fall/stop flying. The Hover property is the only thing that explicitly says you stay in the air while incapacitated or restrained, which makes sense since you're not flapping limbs or anything to generate lift.
The "Speed of 0" section specifically states that having a zeroed speed also zeroes your special speeds, and the Prone condition specifically states that when you're prone your "..****y movement option is to crawl..." unless you stand up.
Sounds like nothing's really changed.
Having a fly speed of 0 is not the same as not having a fly speed, and "only movement option is the crawl" does not say you no longer have a climb/burrow/fly speed it just says if you choose to move you must crawl. A prone flying creature still has a fly speed thus would not fall. Note that under "Hover" it specifically specifies that you do not fall if Restrained or Incapacitated, thus if Grapple / Prone would cause a flying creature without Hover to fall they would also cause a flying creature with Hover to fall which obviously doesn't make sense, thus the obvious implication is that Grapple / Prone does not cause flying creature with or without Hover to fall.
Are Bards now intended as party healers? And by 15th, a bard can have access to all divine spells, all primal spells and half of all arcane spells. I am generally pro-bard, but that seems... a bit much
Ranger:
Looks much improved, but why is 'Conjure Barrage' a Hunter subclass ability? That is more a military field action style ability. It is like hunting game with a field howitzer firing HE rounds. It is a great ability but makes no sense for the Hunter.
(SNIP)
Party healers? No, but they making them more like rangers and paladins - emergency healing ie EMTs vs Docs. They can keep party members up and active (barely) but not really keep them at full strength.
why conjure volley? It’s the single thing they can do that is now available at L11 that attacks large groups - and it gives them a chance to intro down casting of spells. Personally I would have preferred they leave the original PHB multi attack alone ( or give us our choice at each use you shouldn’t really be tied to only one of those options) and introduced downcasting elsewhere. Their problem is that rangers and bards don’t get evocation spells and that is where downcasting is really useful so they used this instead.
Not much change with the Rogue, Thief is improved a bit, but isn't really all that different.
Sorry, late to the party and just saw this thread, but I believe they did nerf Rogue as they can only get one sneak attack on their turn, not “a turn”. So no more multiple SA in a round, not that you could stack that many. Unless I read it wrong.
That is why I said "Not much change" instead of "There was no change" I really don't feel the nerf is really that big of a deal for the class over all and how it does what the class was designed to do.
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it comes 2 levels later.
True, but that's not a nerf to that specific feature. That's nerfing the class which is very different.
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HERE.Because you get a sub class feat at level 6 instead, so you get Supreme Sneak at level 6 for Thief.
Yup. You get a subclass feature at 6th, and they had to bump back the rogues second expertise so they could have the subclasses at different levels. So I take back what I said earlier; This "nerf" is not even a nerf to the class, it's just changing the leveling slightly so the new subclasss work at the levels they are meant to.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Based on the wording it also seems like Animal Handling is a Charisma skill now rather than WIS, which means warlocks and sorcerers are better at working with animals than rangers or druids. I hope that isn't the case.
No, you should not need a feat or subclass to get a feature to work how it should work in the first place. Its like these dumb feats like keen mind that turn a worthless as an action action into a bonus action. That is crap design, don't make a rule to make it crap so a feat will have value.
I kind of think that is good, it was way too easy to knock enemies out of the sky. Flying should be a asset not a weakness.
Wait, where did you come to this conclusion? Grappling and knocking prone still reduce one's fly speed to 0, which means you don't have a fly speed anymore and you fall/stop flying. The Hover property is the only thing that explicitly says you stay in the air while incapacitated or restrained, which makes sense since you're not flapping limbs or anything to generate lift.
The "Speed of 0" section specifically states that having a zeroed speed also zeroes your special speeds, and the Prone condition specifically states that when you're prone your "..****y movement option is to crawl..." unless you stand up.
Sounds like nothing's really changed.
It’s not a nerf to the class, they now finally get a second subclass feature before 9th gorram level, which is swell.
Edit: Nevermind, I just saw your next post.
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I wanna hear more feedback from Rogues!!! I saw no comments on whether they now have 6 ASI/Feat chances.
There were examples of both WIS (animal handling) and CHA (animal handling). Well, one each. Check Out Mount Handler feat. I would have thought it was a typo if it wasn't for the Jump rules, that let you go with STR (Athletics or Acrobats). Something is going on with how skill rolls work now.
What' seems to be going on is that you can use any skill with any attribute, but we no longer call for skill rolls, we call for Attribute rolls that a skill or a tool may add to. To influence someone, you make a CHA check, with a bonus from any appropriate skills or tools.
That's my guess anyways.
Interesting, I didn't notice it in the feat section. Using another attribute for a skill check was always an optional rule, I guess they're just making it the default way you use certain skills now.
That said I am unsure how I feel about that. Especially in the context of Animal Handling, since the CHA use for the skill seems like it'd be significantly stronger than the WIS use for the skill despite it being a Wisdom focused skill.
Eh, I could see Charisma (Animal Handling) make sense for a Yuan-Ti Abomination (but with a DC of 20 or higher). Snake dancing or appealing to their more animalistic side is an easy justification for that.
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Be careful talking about "any competent DM" -- the idea that a skill named 'animal handling' works on mundane animals (i.e. beasts) is hardly peculiar. I would note that the current rules text doesn't actually say that animal handling works on all monstrosities, it just says that it only works on beasts and monstrosities (this is not to say I agree with even that; I would be perfectly fine with it working on a pegasus (celestial), blink dog (fey), or hell hound (fiend)).
Sad to see they removed one of the best feats in the game. I'm going to miss my beloved Mobile feat :(
seems the Speedster feet took 2 of the 3 abilities from Mobile.
We have only seen some 1st and 4th level feats so far the last ability from mobile ( not provoking OP attacks from a target you attacked ) might pop up in a higher level feat.
Sorry, late to the party and just saw this thread, but I believe they did nerf Rogue as they can only get one sneak attack on their turn, not “a turn”. So no more multiple SA in a round, not that you could stack that many. Unless I read it wrong.
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Having a fly speed of 0 is not the same as not having a fly speed, and "only movement option is the crawl" does not say you no longer have a climb/burrow/fly speed it just says if you choose to move you must crawl. A prone flying creature still has a fly speed thus would not fall. Note that under "Hover" it specifically specifies that you do not fall if Restrained or Incapacitated, thus if Grapple / Prone would cause a flying creature without Hover to fall they would also cause a flying creature with Hover to fall which obviously doesn't make sense, thus the obvious implication is that Grapple / Prone does not cause flying creature with or without Hover to fall.
Party healers? No, but they making them more like rangers and paladins - emergency healing ie EMTs vs Docs. They can keep party members up and active (barely) but not really keep them at full strength.
why conjure volley? It’s the single thing they can do that is now available at L11 that attacks large groups - and it gives them a chance to intro down casting of spells. Personally I would have preferred they leave the original PHB multi attack alone ( or give us our choice at each use you shouldn’t really be tied to only one of those options) and introduced downcasting elsewhere. Their problem is that rangers and bards don’t get evocation spells and that is where downcasting is really useful so they used this instead.
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That is why I said "Not much change" instead of "There was no change" I really don't feel the nerf is really that big of a deal for the class over all and how it does what the class was designed to do.
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