It might be interesting if that is what magic armor did. As PB as the norm +magic armor might push it too far. Though they could remove +X armor and just have armor with special features.
The math imo should be that a character should be roughly as hard to hit at all levels and I'm not talking some crazy multi class optimized out to the nines build being necessary. Generic fighter taking the best armor available when facing mobs and bosses should keep needing roughly the same roll to hit them at all levels. As they progress if they optimize to the nines for it, it should get harder for them to be hit as they level.
I will say monsters need this as well. AC for monsters scales poorly with a few exceptions.
Monster AC scales to exactly match player attack rolls in the absence of magic items (always 65%) this is deliberate so that a +1 weapon is always equally good regardless of player level, and it is never required that players recieve magic items to progress in the game. DMs are supposed to be rather conservative with awarding magic items, and magic items are deliberately mostly utility. Note that if using the magic item tables from the DMG +1 items don't appear until magic item table F which has a 4% chance of being used in CR 0-4 loot, and only 20% chance of being used in CR 5-10 loot. +2 items don't have a significant chance of appearing until CR 11-16, and +3 items not until CR 17+.
It is supposed to, but it doesn't is my point. The design goal seemed to be keep AC at a sweet spot to hit for its CR, but the end result is more logic based on what the monster is. Oh it is a suit or armor give it that suits of armors AC. Oh it does not wear armor but is mostly humanoid give it a crap AC. There are ways to fix it I suppose with excessive Hp, or just improving ACs for enemies with a to low AC for their CR. But the CR system is broken in 5e. hopefully they will fix it or at least improve in in one.
Just use the CR table then? All monsters of CR 7 have the exact same AC equal to that as stated in the CR tables.... IME CR actually works quite well, the problem is the encounter design sections. What WotC considers "Hard" really isn't very hard, I honestly just shift all the difficulty words down up by down by one, so what WotC says in "Hard" is actually "Medium" and "Deadly" is simply "Hard". Monsters of CR 7 are a good match to a level 7 party, just you need to have a number of them equal to 75% of your party size. Though all bets are off if you're playing with optimizers since the game is not balanced around Multiclassing, and even very simple MCing can very easily break the game.
I went through CR 5 and before I got through the A's the Ac varied between 12 and 17. In CR 7 within the first 2 monsters the Ac varied between 13 and 18. CR 14, on the first page ACs between 10 and 19. Sure a majority were with one or two at that CR but there is only 2 pages of monsters and a solid number are off that 1-2 number range. At higher CRs where there is not a full 2 pages and a bunch are variations on dragon there will be a chunk at basically the same Ac, but there will be plenty of outliers in both directions. Overall AC is all over the place in the various CRs.
And at say CR 15 assuming its not a boss/deadly fight most of them are in the AC 18/19 range(though again plenty of outliers), you are likely 12/13 level range so 20 in your main stat +4/5 from proficiency so you are looking at needing a 8-10 to hit and that is with no magic items. At low levels the players frequently need more than a 8-10 to hit. Sure sometimes far less like say they facing a ooze or a zombie, but in CR 3 there are plenty of AC 16-18 enemies, so I'd need a 11-13, heck CR 1 includes animated armor with its AC of 18, dragon worm lings with AC 16,(the rare 65% mark) or a brown bear with AC 12. Whatever the CR hitting that AC at 65% is not all the time, I'm not sure I'd even say it was the norm.
I need to amend my previous statement that I only have one big wish for OneDnD Warriors; I think the designers need to give the Warrior classes more features they can use outside of combat, because as it currently stands, casters can solve problems with a snap of their fingers, whereas martials are stuck having to make skill checks to see if they can succeed.
This very much. Martials tend to be so heavily combat focused where as casters have ways to interact with all three pillars of play with their spells. This is a huge factor in the caster martial divide.
Except the most of the community doesn't want this based on their actions. Any martial right now can get a ton of out of combat utility just by taking Ritual Caster (wizard), but people don't do that, they take GWM, PAM, SS, XbowXpert, Sentinel, Resilient and Tough - all feats that are combat focused. There are plenty of subclasses that have out of combat features but they are considered bad because they don't have as many or as powerful combat abilities - consider Fey Wanderer or Horizon Walker Ranger vs Gloomstalker, Samurai vs Battlemaster ... or that nearly every EK I've witnessed played takes combat-oriented cantrips, or that Ancestral Guardian and Totem Barbs never use their ritual spells (and usually MC into fighter before getting them)...
The why to this is actually pretty simple. Fighters don't take Ritual Caster (wizard) because nearly 100% of parties will already have a ritual caster in them. Spending a feat to do what your teammate can already do (but they can do it better and for free) is never going to be a popular option.
Additionally, they likely chose a martial class to be a warrior, not a spellcaster. Thus they want to tackle problems with a warrior's tools. "Just be part wizard" is not an acceptable answer to this, rather it's to have their own unique answers to challenges and obstacles that fit with and enhance the flavor of the class.
Also, stepping out of the char-op slanted forums, you find plenty of Fey Wanderers and Samurais. But ultimately, you see the trend you do because the game rewards specialization - specifically each member of the party carving out their own role where they can best play up their strengths. So yeah, the classes geared most towards combat are probably going to focus on that strength. And no small part of that is the fact that their teammates can easily outshine them outside of combat using only the default tools they are given by their class.
It's silly to expect all monsters of the same CR to have the same AC, just like it's silly to expect them all to have the same damage output or healing or abilities. Sure, some monsters have lower AC, but that can be made up for by better abilities or more health. Some also have higher AC, but they can be given lower health or damage in return. I don't like the idea that every single monster you fight has to have the exact same AC, even if one is a big blob of jelly and the other is literally a suit of armor.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It's silly to expect all monsters of the same CR to have the same AC, just like it's silly to expect them all to have the same damage output or healing or abilities. Sure, some monsters have lower AC, but that can be made up for by better abilities or more health. Some also have higher AC, but they can be given lower health or damage in return. I don't like the idea that every single monster you fight has to have the exact same AC, even if one is a big blob of jelly and the other is literally a suit of armor.
I agree with you. Not all monsters serve the same purpose. For example the intellect devourer is CR2, and has AC 12. But it can still easily stun a high level character in 1 turn, and kill him in 2. Put several of these hiding in a room and, if they don't get detected in time, they can easily destroy all those player characters with low intelligence. There are many examples like this, and it all depends on how you want to challenge your players. It is the advantage of having a varied and assorted bestiary, that you have options to make the game interesting beyond using "hitpoint bags".
I need to amend my previous statement that I only have one big wish for OneDnD Warriors; I think the designers need to give the Warrior classes more features they can use outside of combat, because as it currently stands, casters can solve problems with a snap of their fingers, whereas martials are stuck having to make skill checks to see if they can succeed.
This very much. Martials tend to be so heavily combat focused where as casters have ways to interact with all three pillars of play with their spells. This is a huge factor in the caster martial divide.
Except the most of the community doesn't want this based on their actions. Any martial right now can get a ton of out of combat utility just by taking Ritual Caster (wizard), but people don't do that, they take GWM, PAM, SS, XbowXpert, Sentinel, Resilient and Tough - all feats that are combat focused. There are plenty of subclasses that have out of combat features but they are considered bad because they don't have as many or as powerful combat abilities - consider Fey Wanderer or Horizon Walker Ranger vs Gloomstalker, Samurai vs Battlemaster ... or that nearly every EK I've witnessed played takes combat-oriented cantrips, or that Ancestral Guardian and Totem Barbs never use their ritual spells (and usually MC into fighter before getting them)...
The why to this is actually pretty simple. Fighters don't take Ritual Caster (wizard) because nearly 100% of parties will already have a ritual caster in them. Spending a feat to do what your teammate can already do (but they can do it better and for free) is never going to be a popular option.
Additionally, they likely chose a martial class to be a warrior, not a spellcaster. Thus they want to tackle problems with a warrior's tools. "Just be part wizard" is not an acceptable answer to this, rather it's to have their own unique answers to challenges and obstacles that fit with and enhance the flavor of the class.
Also, stepping out of the char-op slanted forums, you find plenty of Fey Wanderers and Samurais. But ultimately, you see the trend you do because the game rewards specialization - specifically each member of the party carving out their own role where they can best play up their strengths. So yeah, the classes geared most towards combat are probably going to focus on that strength. And no small part of that is the fact that their teammates can easily outshine them outside of combat using only the default tools they are given by their class.
Yes, but all of those arguments support my point: players don't want warriors to have more out of combat abilities. Why give warriors more utility abilities that solves the same problem that ritual spells solve (e.g. high Constitution and Athletics to be a good swimmer vs Water breathing and Water Walk) when this is a party game and there is probably someone of another class that is geared towards utility that can do it better than a class geared towards combat? While its a popular talking point, it's a bad argument.
PS I've played in two campaigns where the only ritual spell taken by the casters was Detect Magic, and still none of the martials took ritual caster - because that wasn't the type of character they wanted to play.
It might be interesting if that is what magic armor did. As PB as the norm +magic armor might push it too far. Though they could remove +X armor and just have armor with special features.
The math imo should be that a character should be roughly as hard to hit at all levels and I'm not talking some crazy multi class optimized out to the nines build being necessary. Generic fighter taking the best armor available when facing mobs and bosses should keep needing roughly the same roll to hit them at all levels. As they progress if they optimize to the nines for it, it should get harder for them to be hit as they level.
I will say monsters need this as well. AC for monsters scales poorly with a few exceptions.
Monster AC scales to exactly match player attack rolls in the absence of magic items (always 65%) this is deliberate so that a +1 weapon is always equally good regardless of player level, and it is never required that players recieve magic items to progress in the game. DMs are supposed to be rather conservative with awarding magic items, and magic items are deliberately mostly utility. Note that if using the magic item tables from the DMG +1 items don't appear until magic item table F which has a 4% chance of being used in CR 0-4 loot, and only 20% chance of being used in CR 5-10 loot. +2 items don't have a significant chance of appearing until CR 11-16, and +3 items not until CR 17+.
It is supposed to, but it doesn't is my point. The design goal seemed to be keep AC at a sweet spot to hit for its CR, but the end result is more logic based on what the monster is. Oh it is a suit or armor give it that suits of armors AC. Oh it does not wear armor but is mostly humanoid give it a crap AC. There are ways to fix it I suppose with excessive Hp, or just improving ACs for enemies with a to low AC for their CR. But the CR system is broken in 5e. hopefully they will fix it or at least improve in in one.
Just use the CR table then? All monsters of CR 7 have the exact same AC equal to that as stated in the CR tables.... IME CR actually works quite well, the problem is the encounter design sections. What WotC considers "Hard" really isn't very hard, I honestly just shift all the difficulty words down up by down by one, so what WotC says in "Hard" is actually "Medium" and "Deadly" is simply "Hard". Monsters of CR 7 are a good match to a level 7 party, just you need to have a number of them equal to 75% of your party size. Though all bets are off if you're playing with optimizers since the game is not balanced around Multiclassing, and even very simple MCing can very easily break the game.
I went through CR 5 and before I got through the A's the Ac varied between 12 and 17. In CR 7 within the first 2 monsters the Ac varied between 13 and 18. CR 14, on the first page ACs between 10 and 19. Sure a majority were with one or two at that CR but there is only 2 pages of monsters and a solid number are off that 1-2 number range. At higher CRs where there is not a full 2 pages and a bunch are variations on dragon there will be a chunk at basically the same Ac, but there will be plenty of outliers in both directions. Overall AC is all over the place in the various CRs.
And at say CR 15 assuming its not a boss/deadly fight most of them are in the AC 18/19 range(though again plenty of outliers), you are likely 12/13 level range so 20 in your main stat +4/5 from proficiency so you are looking at needing a 8-10 to hit and that is with no magic items. At low levels the players frequently need more than a 8-10 to hit. Sure sometimes far less like say they facing a ooze or a zombie, but in CR 3 there are plenty of AC 16-18 enemies, so I'd need a 11-13, heck CR 1 includes animated armor with its AC of 18, dragon worm lings with AC 16,(the rare 65% mark) or a brown bear with AC 12. Whatever the CR hitting that AC at 65% is not all the time, I'm not sure I'd even say it was the norm.
What are you on about? You are contradicting yourself all over the place. Yes AC fluctuates across monsters of the same CR to make the game interesting with different abilities and different strategies being optimal against different enemies or in different situations. Requiring an 8-10 to hit is that 65% that is what the CR table says the "typical" example of a monster of that CR should be at. As a level 1-3 character you should have a +5 to hit so the average monster has AC 13 and the "many outliers" have AC more than 1 point above that - indeed at low levels this is often most extreme to let everyone shine despite everyone having only 1 thing they can do. Outliers doesn't mean that CR is broken or that monsters systematically have too-low ACs the fact that when you went through and found that there are just as nany high ACs as low ACs means that monsters do fit their CR as described in the CR tables and CR does "work".
If DMs are finding their players find it really easy to hit monsters, I would guess that they do at least one of the following: (1) use ability score generation method other than standard array or point buy that makes it highly likely players start with a 20 in their primary score (2) give out lots of +X weapons (3) give out many ability score boosting items. In which case they are choosing as the DM to make their party OP compared to the expected party that CR was designed for. If you give your party lots of magic items and still want the same combat difficulty you will need to shift up the CR tables by 1-2 points to compensate.
PS I personally HATE feat trees. Either feat trees have such better progression to make up for the lack of choice that they become mandatory or their progression is identical to non-tree feats in which case why bother with the feat tree? It just makes it harder to figure out what feat you can or should take.
Exactly this. Feat trees only ended up giving the illusion of choice. Basically, once you picked one kind of fighting (two weapon, archery, etc.) it was clear which feats you needed to take and in which order. (Not to mention there were always a couple in n the middle you’d never use, but needed for prereqs for good ones at higher levels, aka the feat tax.) Imo, subclasses are basically feat trees, just on rails. You make the choice once, and all the follow up choices you would/should have made are already there for you. They’re feat trees without the chance you’ll make a wrong choice at, like, level 3, and then you get to level 10, but don’t have the prereq and now your character suddenly sucks.
My wishlist: They would stop the effort of changing when all classes get their subclasses and the number of subclass abilities for each class. While I applaud the effort and design and the idea makes full sense in a vacuum, it should wait for 6th edition when backwards compatibility isn't a concern.
Barbarians:
1. Fighting Style at 1st level: Specially two weapon fighting given the new rules. Without Great Weapon Master the Barbarian using lighter weapons to make sure to maximize the number of times Rage Damage is applied is a very valid use of Two weapon Fighting. (also note that fighting style is a 1st level feat restricted to the warrior classes. So putting it at 2nd level really doesn't make sense for the warriors.)
2. Rage: Refresh Rage ability when initiative is rolled. set the bonus equal to the proficiency modifier but not TIED to the Proficiency Modifier. This makes it easy for single class barbarian to track on the fly using the simple shorthand that they scale at the same rate but without the multiclass shenanigans of a 1 level dip.
3. Crazy idea: being able to swap Dex for Con when calculating your AC, so a breastplate wearing barbarian with 20 con would be 14+5 instead of 14+2 due to dex scaling limitations. I call it Brutish Defense.
Fighters
1. I'd like to move indomitable to come online at level 6. I feel like 9 is too high and results in people sort of forgetting that it's available because they haven't been trained to use it or they built around using their reaction.
2. Have Action Surge, Indomitable, and Second Wind all refresh when initiative is rolled.
3. Crazy idea: Merge the Battlemaster Features Combat Superiority, Improved Combat Superiority, and Relentless into the base Fighter Class. The Student of War and Know your enemy abilities are ribbony enough to either drop or keep, I don't really care. Refresh Combat Superiority die when Initiative is rolled.
Monk
1. I want them tough enough to stand on the frontline. A Trained Martial artist does not rabbit punch people in the back of the head and run away going woo woo woo woo
2. let them wear light or medium armor and use shields without losing Martial Arts, its silly. People wear the equivalent of light or medium armor when competing in martial arts tournaments.
3. remove the armor and shield exclusion from Unarmored Movement. Go ahead and Captain America all you want.
4. Crazy idea: Refresh all Ki when initiative is rolled, rebalance the total number of ki points accordingly. (I thought about doing per round, but I thought the symmetry of the Warrior Group all refreshing on initiative felt right.)
It’s funny I see people saying they want things that I know they don’t want. Or rather it’s something that was tested and fail. There is a Dnd game where warriors have just as many options as mages on their turns. That game was 4e. It did really bad. Every class felt generic. Also I’m seeing a lot of talk about breaking bounded AC. That would be a major mistake. There are already some builds that can get your AC above 25 without you DM giving you magic items. Keeping ACs low is important to the game. CR needs work but bounded AC has to stay.
Now what I would like from the Warrior Classes.
Fighter: Should be able to change fighting styles on a long rest. Does it make narrative sense? Not really. Does it help when you find a cool new weapon? Absolutely. I’ve also thought about giving all fighters combat superiority that scales slower. 1st d4, 5th d6, 11th d8 and they only get pb uses per short rest. Then Battle Masters at 3rd would change the dice progression gaining the d6 at 3rd and follow the 5e progression from there. They would also gain bonus Combat superiority dice and maneuvers based on fighter level. Yes I’m agreeing with more options for fighters, but nothing on the level of making them feel like spellcasters. I hope Champion just gets the UA Brutes damage progression instead of or in addition to the critical hit bonus. If all fighters get combat superiority I hope Eldritch Knights can use them to add elemental damage to their weapon attacks. I hope the 4th class is an Arcane Archer that works.
Barbarian: Get a fighting style. Berserkers Frenzy gets a rework. Literally if you just ignore exhaustion while raging that fixes it. I guess exhaustion not being as extreme in 1dnd also helps. Make the other Totem options feel good as bear. Wolf is pretty good in the right party, but isn’t bear good. Use this opportunity to fix the spike armored Barbarian. I hope Zealot is the 4th class in the PHB
Monk: Get a fighting style. Get better weapon selection for all monks. Extra martial arts attack and Flurry of blows as part of the same action. Step of the wind dash and you don’t provoke attacks of opportunity until end of this turn. Patient defense dodge grant resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing until the start of your next turn. D10 hit dice. Shadow gets a way to see in magical darkness. Four Elements gets better spell ki cost or more unique abilities that aren’t spells. Also more give them more access to those spells and abilities. Kensei I hope is the 4th in the phb and they need access to heavy weapons.
It’s funny I see people saying they want things that I know they don’t want. Or rather it’s something that was tested and fail. There is a Dnd game where warriors have just as many options as mages on their turns. That game was 4e. It did really bad. Every class felt generic. Also I’m seeing a lot of talk about breaking bounded AC. That would be a major mistake. There are already some builds that can get your AC above 25 without you DM giving you magic items. Keeping ACs low is important to the game. CR needs work but bounded AC has to stay.
Now what I would like from the Warrior Classes.
Fighter: Should be able to change fighting styles on a long rest. Does it make narrative sense? Not really. Does it help when you find a cool new weapon? Absolutely. I’ve also thought about giving all fighters combat superiority that scales slower. 1st d4, 5th d6, 11th d8 and they only get pb uses per short rest. Then Battle Masters at 3rd would change the dice progression gaining the d6 at 3rd and follow the 5e progression from there. They would also gain bonus Combat superiority dice and maneuvers based on fighter level. Yes I’m agreeing with more options for fighters, but nothing on the level of making them feel like spellcasters. I hope Champion just gets the UA Brutes damage progression instead of or in addition to the critical hit bonus. If all fighters get combat superiority I hope Eldritch Knights can use them to add elemental damage to their weapon attacks. I hope the 4th class is an Arcane Archer that works.
Barbarian: Get a fighting style. Berserkers Frenzy gets a rework. Literally if you just ignore exhaustion while raging that fixes it. I guess exhaustion not being as extreme in 1dnd also helps. Make the other Totem options feel good as bear. Wolf is pretty good in the right party, but isn’t bear good. Use this opportunity to fix the spike armored Barbarian. I hope Zealot is the 4th class in the PHB
Monk: Get a fighting style. Get better weapon selection for all monks. Extra martial arts attack and Flurry of blows as part of the same action. Step of the wind dash and you don’t provoke attacks of opportunity until end of this turn. Patient defense dodge grant resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing until the start of your next turn. D10 hit dice. Shadow gets a way to see in magical darkness. Four Elements gets better spell ki cost or more unique abilities that aren’t spells. Also more give them more access to those spells and abilities. Kensei I hope is the 4th in the phb and they need access to heavy weapons.
I think a lot of people discount the 'improvised action' in the hands of Physical Players. Magic is more defined because it has to be, we have no innate concept of what magic can do, but physical players already innately know the basics of how to interact with the world around them. If I had a player who wanted to shove three fingers down a wizards throat like Mankinds Mandible Claw in order to stop Vocal Components of spell casting....Sure, why not?! Go ahead Mr. Raging Barbarian, roll a grapple against the Wizard.
Fighter: I like the long rest (or maybe a downtime activity?) for switching fighting style. Like, you already know how to use the style from previous training, this is just getting the muscle memory back. I think we're both on the same track with the idea of giving maneuvers to fighters as a class. You're thinking of giving them the Martial Adept feat (more or less) while I'm taking a more extreme approach, but it's basically the same idea. I do really love the idea you floated about adding in subclass specific maneuvers though, That could be a super fun and flavorful way of tying subclasses, new or existing, to the new mechanic without actually reprinting them. Pretty ingenious.
Barbarian: Frenzy did sort of get a rework already, the new Exhaustion rule of putting a -1 on things when the frenzy ends takes most of the teeth out of the penalty (though I'd prefer they just drop the penalty entirely, there's an opportunity cost to picking a subclass and an opportunity cost of using a bonus action, penalty + opportunity cost is bad design). Bear Totem is going to be a rough one I think. Either that totem gets nerfed or baked into the baseline of the subclass IMO, I just don't see any way you're going to manage to get something that good to balance against Totem of the Tiger or Elk. Personally, I'd just bake the Bear Totem into the Totemic Warrior "Your Totem connects you to the primal world and grants some protection against Primal elements. You gain resistance to Fire, Cold, Lighting, and Thunder damage" Maybe drop Radiant and Necrotic from the list. That totem is a "Bear" of a choice.
Monk: Dedicated Weapon in Tasha's did a lot of help with the availability of weapons for monks, with the changes to GWM and Sharp shooter we should see Monk weapon damage come into the conversation a bit. Martial arts as an unarmed attack as if you were using the new Two weapon fighting as a model, the martial arts strike as part of the attack action is almost a guarantee. Flurry of Blows is honestly the only Ki skill that you can't really change too much without breaking backwards compatibility. I'd be more than happy to see Martial arts and Flurry of Blows both being available on the same turn in that model (Drunken Master and Mercy both make heavy use of that off the top of my head, but I think that's unique among the ki abilities).
Shadow gaining Blindsight somehow feels on theme, like they train in the dark, though the balance might be wonky. Way of 4 elements, well thats a total loss in my opinion. Scrap the whole thing, go watch a ton of Avatar and come back ready to build from scratch. You know full well everyone looking at that subclass want's to be a Bender. The heavy weapon loss or gain is honestly a complete wash now. If Monks still are shieldless come the UA, then their Martial arts die needs to be sitting at like at least a D10 at start as the only other weapon that locks out the shield is either a Versatile weapon in 2 hands or a great weapon. So having it be a D10 that locks out shield but not Grapple is to me a good compromise. Then you can use the "scaling MA Die" to instead add +1 bonuses to hit and to damage. I'm totally OK with monks being known as the most accurate per hit due to +1 bonus stacking and Barbarians being known as the best Critical hitters with Reckless Attack. Throw Combat superioity for Fighters and now they are the most versatile in effects. Seems conceptually balanced to me.
Flurry of Blows is honestly the only Ki skill that you can't really change too much without breaking backwards compatibility.
What do you mean by this? How would changing Flurry of Blows break backwards compatibility?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
IMO the warriors, especially the fighters, should be more fun to play. And for that they have to be able to make more choices on their turn than just hitting or occasionally activating a feature like action surge. The base model has to be the battlemaster. At least for the fighter. But perhaps the barbs could also have their maneuvers.
I don't care about monks, really. But his gameplay should be hit and run efficiently. But I really don't care what they do with them because I don't play them, and hardly anyone around me plays them. Because of the monk theme, basically.
Flurry of Blows is honestly the only Ki skill that you can't really change too much without breaking backwards compatibility.
What do you mean by this? How would changing Flurry of Blows break backwards compatibility?
Breaking might be the wrong term, more like potentially affecting in unexpected ways.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the monk subclasses really interface that much with the Ki abilities of the baseline class, the only exception I know of is the Way of Mercy and the Way of Drunken Master, which augment and add on to the Flurry of Blows Ki ability. So that adds just a little tiny wrinkle on any attempts to change that ability. Might be something, might be nothing, depends on what gets altered. But it seems to be a unique aspect of backwards compatiblity to previously published subclasses.
Flurry of Blows is honestly the only Ki skill that you can't really change too much without breaking backwards compatibility.
What do you mean by this? How would changing Flurry of Blows break backwards compatibility?
Breaking might be the wrong term, more like potentially affecting in unexpected ways.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the monk subclasses really interface that much with the Ki abilities of the baseline class, the only exception I know of is the Way of Mercy and the Way of Drunken Master, which augment and add on to the Flurry of Blows Ki ability. So that adds just a little tiny wrinkle on any attempts to change that ability. Might be something, might be nothing, depends on what gets altered. But it seems to be a unique aspect of backwards compatiblity to previously published subclasses.
Mercy and Drunken Master can just be changed in the new edition. 1D&D isn't meant to be backwards compatible with previously published subclasses, just adventures.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I need to amend my previous statement that I only have one big wish for OneDnD Warriors; I think the designers need to give the Warrior classes more features they can use outside of combat, because as it currently stands, casters can solve problems with a snap of their fingers, whereas martials are stuck having to make skill checks to see if they can succeed.
This very much. Martials tend to be so heavily combat focused where as casters have ways to interact with all three pillars of play with their spells. This is a huge factor in the caster martial divide.
Except the most of the community doesn't want this based on their actions. Any martial right now can get a ton of out of combat utility just by taking Ritual Caster (wizard), but people don't do that, they take GWM, PAM, SS, XbowXpert, Sentinel, Resilient and Tough - all feats that are combat focused. There are plenty of subclasses that have out of combat features but they are considered bad because they don't have as many or as powerful combat abilities - consider Fey Wanderer or Horizon Walker Ranger vs Gloomstalker, Samurai vs Battlemaster ... or that nearly every EK I've witnessed played takes combat-oriented cantrips, or that Ancestral Guardian and Totem Barbs never use their ritual spells (and usually MC into fighter before getting them)...
The why to this is actually pretty simple. Fighters don't take Ritual Caster (wizard) because nearly 100% of parties will already have a ritual caster in them. Spending a feat to do what your teammate can already do (but they can do it better and for free) is never going to be a popular option.
Additionally, they likely chose a martial class to be a warrior, not a spellcaster. Thus they want to tackle problems with a warrior's tools. "Just be part wizard" is not an acceptable answer to this, rather it's to have their own unique answers to challenges and obstacles that fit with and enhance the flavor of the class.
Also, stepping out of the char-op slanted forums, you find plenty of Fey Wanderers and Samurais. But ultimately, you see the trend you do because the game rewards specialization - specifically each member of the party carving out their own role where they can best play up their strengths. So yeah, the classes geared most towards combat are probably going to focus on that strength. And no small part of that is the fact that their teammates can easily outshine them outside of combat using only the default tools they are given by their class.
Yes, but all of those arguments support my point: players don't want warriors to have more out of combat abilities. Why give warriors more utility abilities that solves the same problem that ritual spells solve (e.g. high Constitution and Athletics to be a good swimmer vs Water breathing and Water Walk) when this is a party game and there is probably someone of another class that is geared towards utility that can do it better than a class geared towards combat? While its a popular talking point, it's a bad argument.
Because casters have that utility while not losing anything in terms of combat. It's not a bad argument at all. Martial characters should also have out of combat utility while not needing to give up any combat abilities. As you go higher up in the tiers, a party of fullcasters feels very different from a party of non-casters. With a team of fullcasters, you have access to a plethora of spells that can just solve problems, teleport across the world, planeshift, etc.
This is going to probably sound flippant but it really isn't meant to be. I'm genuinely curious what people think.
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And isn't easily done with a skill or feat that anyone should be able to get?
Additionally, what are some combat abilities that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And doesn't look overly superhuman?
I ask because I know a lot of people want it. But I can't imagine many examples that don't just feel like more magic, or some anime/superhero/demigod stuff. Those kinds of ideas are easy. We could fill many books with them. But not everyone wants that in the game as the base martial class. So I'm curious if anyone can come up with examples that do what they want while still feeling like a mortal warrior might accomplish them.
Doesn't look overly super human would be the hard part, but I suspect most players are okay with superhuman they just don't want it to feel like magic as lets face it post level 5 everyone is super human. Smash through a castle wall and I suspect people are fine, ritual cast pass wall they are not fine.
Personally I'd make battle master maneuvers the default for all warriors/martials.
Out of combat I'd personally have expanded them to cover skills. Depending on the tier you are picking the ability in would define how dramatic it is. Tier one a jump enhancer might be something like roll maneuver die and twice the result is added to jump distance, but tier 3 or 4 easily could be roll die and that is the number of miles you safely leap. Skill based maneuvers would be selected from a different resource so it did not impact combat strength.
In combat as an example of a spell that flavor wise could just be a martial ability, steel wind strike. Roll maneuver die, that is the number of creatures within X distance you can strike, choose one creature you attack you end up 5 feet from them.
With a team of fullcasters, you have access to a plethora of spells that can just solve problems, teleport across the world, planeshift, etc.
Buy why do we need everyone in the party to be able to teleport across the world and planeshift? Surely there is no need for a fighter to get a high level ability to magically summon a hunting lodge, when the bard or wizard can summon a magical mansion, or the druid can make the wilderness itself a comfortable shelter, or the cleric can summon a magic temple. Likewise no need for a Barbarian to be able to teleport the party across the world when the druid, bard, wizard, or sorcerer can do that?
Surely, if you're playing in an all-martial party, part of the fun is the fact that you don't have access to all the utility spells so have to do more exploring of the world on foot, or befriend a mages guild, take on a mage-apprentice as a follower, or build yourselves an airship. Even if the party doesn't find that fun, the DM can simply give them: an Amulet of the Planes and a Helm of Teleportation and those crucial utility spells for high level play are covered and your all martial party can do all the world & plane hopping fun of any other party.
Hmmm. I agree that all characters are superhuman at some level. But there seems to be a limit on how far that can be pushed before it breaks suspension of disbelief. That line is different for everyone naturally. But I feel like a decent sized portion of players might not think jumping for miles is reasonable.
The spell thing is something I've thought about a lot. Because you could (somewhat) easily make a super amazing anime style fighter by just reflavoring a wizard entirely. Fireball would be teleporting into the enemies and hitting them all with a flaming blade for massive damage like some Final Fantasy hero before appearing back where you started.
But while that would appeal to some, that's not exactly what most people want from a Fighter. And it's already an option. I think people usually imagine DnD characters as very talented, brave, and sometimes incredibly strong people. But they still think of them as people. It's easy to imagine a normal person learned magic. And most people can imagine a normal person being as strong and tough as an action movie hero. But not everyone thinks of characters as being able to just naturally grow into Superman by fighting enough goblins. That's where the magic powers come in for their suspension of disbelief.
Of course there are a million styles of games you could play. But DnD does have its own internal consistency. Exalted would be the kind of game where people would expect leaping for miles, because every character is a fantasy superhero (cool game btw). DnD just isn't usually that. So I'm curious how you could keep the DnD feel without using magic every time to make a martial that strong.
I went through CR 5 and before I got through the A's the Ac varied between 12 and 17. In CR 7 within the first 2 monsters the Ac varied between 13 and 18. CR 14, on the first page ACs between 10 and 19. Sure a majority were with one or two at that CR but there is only 2 pages of monsters and a solid number are off that 1-2 number range. At higher CRs where there is not a full 2 pages and a bunch are variations on dragon there will be a chunk at basically the same Ac, but there will be plenty of outliers in both directions. Overall AC is all over the place in the various CRs.
And at say CR 15 assuming its not a boss/deadly fight most of them are in the AC 18/19 range(though again plenty of outliers), you are likely 12/13 level range so 20 in your main stat +4/5 from proficiency so you are looking at needing a 8-10 to hit and that is with no magic items. At low levels the players frequently need more than a 8-10 to hit. Sure sometimes far less like say they facing a ooze or a zombie, but in CR 3 there are plenty of AC 16-18 enemies, so I'd need a 11-13, heck CR 1 includes animated armor with its AC of 18, dragon worm lings with AC 16,(the rare 65% mark) or a brown bear with AC 12. Whatever the CR hitting that AC at 65% is not all the time, I'm not sure I'd even say it was the norm.
The why to this is actually pretty simple. Fighters don't take Ritual Caster (wizard) because nearly 100% of parties will already have a ritual caster in them. Spending a feat to do what your teammate can already do (but they can do it better and for free) is never going to be a popular option.
Additionally, they likely chose a martial class to be a warrior, not a spellcaster. Thus they want to tackle problems with a warrior's tools. "Just be part wizard" is not an acceptable answer to this, rather it's to have their own unique answers to challenges and obstacles that fit with and enhance the flavor of the class.
Also, stepping out of the char-op slanted forums, you find plenty of Fey Wanderers and Samurais. But ultimately, you see the trend you do because the game rewards specialization - specifically each member of the party carving out their own role where they can best play up their strengths. So yeah, the classes geared most towards combat are probably going to focus on that strength. And no small part of that is the fact that their teammates can easily outshine them outside of combat using only the default tools they are given by their class.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It's silly to expect all monsters of the same CR to have the same AC, just like it's silly to expect them all to have the same damage output or healing or abilities. Sure, some monsters have lower AC, but that can be made up for by better abilities or more health. Some also have higher AC, but they can be given lower health or damage in return. I don't like the idea that every single monster you fight has to have the exact same AC, even if one is a big blob of jelly and the other is literally a suit of armor.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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I agree with you. Not all monsters serve the same purpose. For example the intellect devourer is CR2, and has AC 12. But it can still easily stun a high level character in 1 turn, and kill him in 2. Put several of these hiding in a room and, if they don't get detected in time, they can easily destroy all those player characters with low intelligence.
There are many examples like this, and it all depends on how you want to challenge your players. It is the advantage of having a varied and assorted bestiary, that you have options to make the game interesting beyond using "hitpoint bags".
Yes, but all of those arguments support my point: players don't want warriors to have more out of combat abilities. Why give warriors more utility abilities that solves the same problem that ritual spells solve (e.g. high Constitution and Athletics to be a good swimmer vs Water breathing and Water Walk) when this is a party game and there is probably someone of another class that is geared towards utility that can do it better than a class geared towards combat? While its a popular talking point, it's a bad argument.
PS I've played in two campaigns where the only ritual spell taken by the casters was Detect Magic, and still none of the martials took ritual caster - because that wasn't the type of character they wanted to play.
What are you on about? You are contradicting yourself all over the place. Yes AC fluctuates across monsters of the same CR to make the game interesting with different abilities and different strategies being optimal against different enemies or in different situations. Requiring an 8-10 to hit is that 65% that is what the CR table says the "typical" example of a monster of that CR should be at. As a level 1-3 character you should have a +5 to hit so the average monster has AC 13 and the "many outliers" have AC more than 1 point above that - indeed at low levels this is often most extreme to let everyone shine despite everyone having only 1 thing they can do. Outliers doesn't mean that CR is broken or that monsters systematically have too-low ACs the fact that when you went through and found that there are just as nany high ACs as low ACs means that monsters do fit their CR as described in the CR tables and CR does "work".
If DMs are finding their players find it really easy to hit monsters, I would guess that they do at least one of the following: (1) use ability score generation method other than standard array or point buy that makes it highly likely players start with a 20 in their primary score (2) give out lots of +X weapons (3) give out many ability score boosting items. In which case they are choosing as the DM to make their party OP compared to the expected party that CR was designed for. If you give your party lots of magic items and still want the same combat difficulty you will need to shift up the CR tables by 1-2 points to compensate.
Exactly this.
Feat trees only ended up giving the illusion of choice. Basically, once you picked one kind of fighting (two weapon, archery, etc.) it was clear which feats you needed to take and in which order. (Not to mention there were always a couple in n the middle you’d never use, but needed for prereqs for good ones at higher levels, aka the feat tax.)
Imo, subclasses are basically feat trees, just on rails. You make the choice once, and all the follow up choices you would/should have made are already there for you. They’re feat trees without the chance you’ll make a wrong choice at, like, level 3, and then you get to level 10, but don’t have the prereq and now your character suddenly sucks.
My wishlist: They would stop the effort of changing when all classes get their subclasses and the number of subclass abilities for each class. While I applaud the effort and design and the idea makes full sense in a vacuum, it should wait for 6th edition when backwards compatibility isn't a concern.
Barbarians:
1. Fighting Style at 1st level: Specially two weapon fighting given the new rules. Without Great Weapon Master the Barbarian using lighter weapons to make sure to maximize the number of times Rage Damage is applied is a very valid use of Two weapon Fighting. (also note that fighting style is a 1st level feat restricted to the warrior classes. So putting it at 2nd level really doesn't make sense for the warriors.)
2. Rage: Refresh Rage ability when initiative is rolled. set the bonus equal to the proficiency modifier but not TIED to the Proficiency Modifier. This makes it easy for single class barbarian to track on the fly using the simple shorthand that they scale at the same rate but without the multiclass shenanigans of a 1 level dip.
3. Crazy idea: being able to swap Dex for Con when calculating your AC, so a breastplate wearing barbarian with 20 con would be 14+5 instead of 14+2 due to dex scaling limitations. I call it Brutish Defense.
Fighters
1. I'd like to move indomitable to come online at level 6. I feel like 9 is too high and results in people sort of forgetting that it's available because they haven't been trained to use it or they built around using their reaction.
2. Have Action Surge, Indomitable, and Second Wind all refresh when initiative is rolled.
3. Crazy idea: Merge the Battlemaster Features Combat Superiority, Improved Combat Superiority, and Relentless into the base Fighter Class. The Student of War and Know your enemy abilities are ribbony enough to either drop or keep, I don't really care. Refresh Combat Superiority die when Initiative is rolled.
Monk
1. I want them tough enough to stand on the frontline. A Trained Martial artist does not rabbit punch people in the back of the head and run away going woo woo woo woo
2. let them wear light or medium armor and use shields without losing Martial Arts, its silly. People wear the equivalent of light or medium armor when competing in martial arts tournaments.
3. remove the armor and shield exclusion from Unarmored Movement. Go ahead and Captain America all you want.
4. Crazy idea: Refresh all Ki when initiative is rolled, rebalance the total number of ki points accordingly. (I thought about doing per round, but I thought the symmetry of the Warrior Group all refreshing on initiative felt right.)
It’s funny I see people saying they want things that I know they don’t want. Or rather it’s something that was tested and fail. There is a Dnd game where warriors have just as many options as mages on their turns. That game was 4e. It did really bad. Every class felt generic.
Also I’m seeing a lot of talk about breaking bounded AC. That would be a major mistake. There are already some builds that can get your AC above 25 without you DM giving you magic items. Keeping ACs low is important to the game. CR needs work but bounded AC has to stay.
Now what I would like from the Warrior Classes.
Fighter:
Should be able to change fighting styles on a long rest. Does it make narrative sense? Not really. Does it help when you find a cool new weapon? Absolutely.
I’ve also thought about giving all fighters combat superiority that scales slower. 1st d4, 5th d6, 11th d8 and they only get pb uses per short rest. Then Battle Masters at 3rd would change the dice progression gaining the d6 at 3rd and follow the 5e progression from there. They would also gain bonus Combat superiority dice and maneuvers based on fighter level. Yes I’m agreeing with more options for fighters, but nothing on the level of making them feel like spellcasters. I hope Champion just gets the UA Brutes damage progression instead of or in addition to the critical hit bonus. If all fighters get combat superiority I hope Eldritch Knights can use them to add elemental damage to their weapon attacks. I hope the 4th class is an Arcane Archer that works.
Barbarian:
Get a fighting style. Berserkers Frenzy gets a rework. Literally if you just ignore exhaustion while raging that fixes it. I guess exhaustion not being as extreme in 1dnd also helps. Make the other Totem options feel good as bear. Wolf is pretty good in the right party, but isn’t bear good. Use this opportunity to fix the spike armored Barbarian. I hope Zealot is the 4th class in the PHB
Monk:
Get a fighting style. Get better weapon selection for all monks. Extra martial arts attack and Flurry of blows as part of the same action. Step of the wind dash and you don’t provoke attacks of opportunity until end of this turn. Patient defense dodge grant resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing until the start of your next turn. D10 hit dice. Shadow gets a way to see in magical darkness. Four Elements gets better spell ki cost or more unique abilities that aren’t spells. Also more give them more access to those spells and abilities. Kensei I hope is the 4th in the phb and they need access to heavy weapons.
I think a lot of people discount the 'improvised action' in the hands of Physical Players. Magic is more defined because it has to be, we have no innate concept of what magic can do, but physical players already innately know the basics of how to interact with the world around them. If I had a player who wanted to shove three fingers down a wizards throat like Mankinds Mandible Claw in order to stop Vocal Components of spell casting....Sure, why not?! Go ahead Mr. Raging Barbarian, roll a grapple against the Wizard.
Fighter: I like the long rest (or maybe a downtime activity?) for switching fighting style. Like, you already know how to use the style from previous training, this is just getting the muscle memory back. I think we're both on the same track with the idea of giving maneuvers to fighters as a class. You're thinking of giving them the Martial Adept feat (more or less) while I'm taking a more extreme approach, but it's basically the same idea. I do really love the idea you floated about adding in subclass specific maneuvers though, That could be a super fun and flavorful way of tying subclasses, new or existing, to the new mechanic without actually reprinting them. Pretty ingenious.
Barbarian: Frenzy did sort of get a rework already, the new Exhaustion rule of putting a -1 on things when the frenzy ends takes most of the teeth out of the penalty (though I'd prefer they just drop the penalty entirely, there's an opportunity cost to picking a subclass and an opportunity cost of using a bonus action, penalty + opportunity cost is bad design). Bear Totem is going to be a rough one I think. Either that totem gets nerfed or baked into the baseline of the subclass IMO, I just don't see any way you're going to manage to get something that good to balance against Totem of the Tiger or Elk. Personally, I'd just bake the Bear Totem into the Totemic Warrior "Your Totem connects you to the primal world and grants some protection against Primal elements. You gain resistance to Fire, Cold, Lighting, and Thunder damage" Maybe drop Radiant and Necrotic from the list. That totem is a "Bear" of a choice.
Monk: Dedicated Weapon in Tasha's did a lot of help with the availability of weapons for monks, with the changes to GWM and Sharp shooter we should see Monk weapon damage come into the conversation a bit. Martial arts as an unarmed attack as if you were using the new Two weapon fighting as a model, the martial arts strike as part of the attack action is almost a guarantee. Flurry of Blows is honestly the only Ki skill that you can't really change too much without breaking backwards compatibility. I'd be more than happy to see Martial arts and Flurry of Blows both being available on the same turn in that model (Drunken Master and Mercy both make heavy use of that off the top of my head, but I think that's unique among the ki abilities).
Shadow gaining Blindsight somehow feels on theme, like they train in the dark, though the balance might be wonky. Way of 4 elements, well thats a total loss in my opinion. Scrap the whole thing, go watch a ton of Avatar and come back ready to build from scratch. You know full well everyone looking at that subclass want's to be a Bender. The heavy weapon loss or gain is honestly a complete wash now. If Monks still are shieldless come the UA, then their Martial arts die needs to be sitting at like at least a D10 at start as the only other weapon that locks out the shield is either a Versatile weapon in 2 hands or a great weapon. So having it be a D10 that locks out shield but not Grapple is to me a good compromise. Then you can use the "scaling MA Die" to instead add +1 bonuses to hit and to damage. I'm totally OK with monks being known as the most accurate per hit due to +1 bonus stacking and Barbarians being known as the best Critical hitters with Reckless Attack. Throw Combat superioity for Fighters and now they are the most versatile in effects. Seems conceptually balanced to me.
What do you mean by this? How would changing Flurry of Blows break backwards compatibility?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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IMO the warriors, especially the fighters, should be more fun to play. And for that they have to be able to make more choices on their turn than just hitting or occasionally activating a feature like action surge. The base model has to be the battlemaster. At least for the fighter. But perhaps the barbs could also have their maneuvers.
I don't care about monks, really. But his gameplay should be hit and run efficiently. But I really don't care what they do with them because I don't play them, and hardly anyone around me plays them. Because of the monk theme, basically.
Breaking might be the wrong term, more like potentially affecting in unexpected ways.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the monk subclasses really interface that much with the Ki abilities of the baseline class, the only exception I know of is the Way of Mercy and the Way of Drunken Master, which augment and add on to the Flurry of Blows Ki ability. So that adds just a little tiny wrinkle on any attempts to change that ability. Might be something, might be nothing, depends on what gets altered. But it seems to be a unique aspect of backwards compatiblity to previously published subclasses.
Mercy and Drunken Master can just be changed in the new edition. 1D&D isn't meant to be backwards compatible with previously published subclasses, just adventures.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Because casters have that utility while not losing anything in terms of combat. It's not a bad argument at all. Martial characters should also have out of combat utility while not needing to give up any combat abilities. As you go higher up in the tiers, a party of fullcasters feels very different from a party of non-casters. With a team of fullcasters, you have access to a plethora of spells that can just solve problems, teleport across the world, planeshift, etc.
This is going to probably sound flippant but it really isn't meant to be. I'm genuinely curious what people think.
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
Additionally, what are some combat abilities that a Fighter could have that -
I ask because I know a lot of people want it. But I can't imagine many examples that don't just feel like more magic, or some anime/superhero/demigod stuff. Those kinds of ideas are easy. We could fill many books with them. But not everyone wants that in the game as the base martial class. So I'm curious if anyone can come up with examples that do what they want while still feeling like a mortal warrior might accomplish them.
Doesn't look overly super human would be the hard part, but I suspect most players are okay with superhuman they just don't want it to feel like magic as lets face it post level 5 everyone is super human. Smash through a castle wall and I suspect people are fine, ritual cast pass wall they are not fine.
Personally I'd make battle master maneuvers the default for all warriors/martials.
Out of combat I'd personally have expanded them to cover skills. Depending on the tier you are picking the ability in would define how dramatic it is. Tier one a jump enhancer might be something like roll maneuver die and twice the result is added to jump distance, but tier 3 or 4 easily could be roll die and that is the number of miles you safely leap. Skill based maneuvers would be selected from a different resource so it did not impact combat strength.
In combat as an example of a spell that flavor wise could just be a martial ability, steel wind strike. Roll maneuver die, that is the number of creatures within X distance you can strike, choose one creature you attack you end up 5 feet from them.
Buy why do we need everyone in the party to be able to teleport across the world and planeshift? Surely there is no need for a fighter to get a high level ability to magically summon a hunting lodge, when the bard or wizard can summon a magical mansion, or the druid can make the wilderness itself a comfortable shelter, or the cleric can summon a magic temple. Likewise no need for a Barbarian to be able to teleport the party across the world when the druid, bard, wizard, or sorcerer can do that?
Surely, if you're playing in an all-martial party, part of the fun is the fact that you don't have access to all the utility spells so have to do more exploring of the world on foot, or befriend a mages guild, take on a mage-apprentice as a follower, or build yourselves an airship. Even if the party doesn't find that fun, the DM can simply give them: an Amulet of the Planes and a Helm of Teleportation and those crucial utility spells for high level play are covered and your all martial party can do all the world & plane hopping fun of any other party.
Hmmm. I agree that all characters are superhuman at some level. But there seems to be a limit on how far that can be pushed before it breaks suspension of disbelief. That line is different for everyone naturally. But I feel like a decent sized portion of players might not think jumping for miles is reasonable.
The spell thing is something I've thought about a lot. Because you could (somewhat) easily make a super amazing anime style fighter by just reflavoring a wizard entirely. Fireball would be teleporting into the enemies and hitting them all with a flaming blade for massive damage like some Final Fantasy hero before appearing back where you started.
But while that would appeal to some, that's not exactly what most people want from a Fighter. And it's already an option. I think people usually imagine DnD characters as very talented, brave, and sometimes incredibly strong people. But they still think of them as people. It's easy to imagine a normal person learned magic. And most people can imagine a normal person being as strong and tough as an action movie hero. But not everyone thinks of characters as being able to just naturally grow into Superman by fighting enough goblins. That's where the magic powers come in for their suspension of disbelief.
Of course there are a million styles of games you could play. But DnD does have its own internal consistency. Exalted would be the kind of game where people would expect leaping for miles, because every character is a fantasy superhero (cool game btw). DnD just isn't usually that. So I'm curious how you could keep the DnD feel without using magic every time to make a martial that strong.