To "match" the casting of a true full caster the UA Warlock needs between 2 and 4 Mystic Arcanum.
That is a significant portion of their invocations at each level.
The ability to cast low level utility spells using low level spell slots does not compensate for losing the ability to have the same spell access as a full caster to make major changes.
Fireball at level 5 is powerful. Counterspell at level 5 is powerful. Fly at level 5 is powerful. If you're using Mystic Arcanum then you only get one of those at level 5, and only once per day. At level 9, when you get the ability to have all three, full casters have their choice of level 5 spells, their power level is reduced, especially without the ability to upcast them.
So the Arcane Bard or the Sorcerer are clearly superior.
To "match" the casting of a true full caster the UA Warlock needs between 2 and 4 Mystic Arcanum.
That is a significant portion of their invocations at each level.
The ability to cast low level utility spells using low level spell slots does not compensate for losing the ability to have the same spell access as a full caster to make major changes.
Fireball at level 5 is powerful. Counterspell at level 5 is powerful. Fly at level 5 is powerful. If you're using Mystic Arcanum then you only get one of those at level 5, and only once per day. At level 9, when you get the ability to have all three, full casters have their choice of level 5 spells, their power level is reduced, especially without the ability to upcast them.
So the Arcane Bard or the Sorcerer are clearly superior.
I showed this earlier, but the mystic arcanum bit isn't exactly true. And beyond that, again the warlock is not a "full caster" they shouldn't "Match" the casting of a full caster. if they could than EB would need to be severely toned down. Closer to Sorcerer's new Cantrip.
Edit: for those that don't know, All of the Pacts with the new Warlock lost their "pact invocation tax" and provided utility that previously needed an invocation for right at level 1, and provides further utility usually at level 5. Essentially providing the warlock 2 more invocations by level 5, One of which is used on the new invocation tax that is Mystic Arcanum, but leaving you with 2 more. By 7 it is 2 invocations used, by level 9 it is STILL just 2 invocations used because the 3rd level mystic becomes the 5th level mystic. Effectively meaning less than half of all your invocations will be used on Mystic arcanum tax. While also losing 2 invocation taxes from your pacts and gaining an extra invocation in the later levels. In total it nets to about 1 invocation difference, which would be solved by another invocation at 3 and another mystic arcanum available at that level.
Meaning there's still an invocation tax for mystic arcanum that's even greater than the invocation tax that already existed, as well as a nerf that halves your spell level progression to what it used to be in exchange for a small number of lower level spell slots. 4 out of 9 invocations are going to be spent just to achieve a fraction of what it replaces.
But at least it's free and doesn't cost you anything.
Warlocks had a functional system. Just replace "short rest recharges" with another system.
I suggested a 1 minute ritual to recharge pact slots that scales. Once at level 5, twice at level 11, and thrice at level 17. Meanwhile its slot progression would be two at its highest level and two at the level below that, like the Pathfinder Magus.
Meaning there's still an invocation tax for mystic arcanum that's even greater than the invocation tax that already existed, as well as a nerf that halves your spell level progression to what it used to be in exchange for a small number of lower level spell slots. 4 out of 9 invocations are going to be spent just to achieve a fraction of what it replaces.
I said this, It is an 1 more invocation tax.
You are +1 invocations , and you are +2 from the loss of taxes from pact and then -4 granting a total of -1. For it to even their needs to be one more invocation at 3 and allow mystic arcanum at 3.But as is For level 5 you are +2 from loss of tax from pact and -1 from tax from Mystic so you are total of +1 invocations you are not down here, but this is also the level that hurts the most in spell casting. At level 7 it is even and this is the level you match a full caster in highest level spell slots, at level 9 it is even same as 7th, it isn't till level 11 when you would normally get arcanum that you are -1 but at this point you are closest you will ever be to a full caster from this point forward, this is also where you get a 3rd ray on EB, and you stay -1 the rest of your career. So at all levels where the "loss" happens you are even or +1 invocation to make up for it.
But at least it's free and doesn't cost you anything.
Warlocks had a functional system. Just replace "short rest recharges" with another system.
I suggested a 1 minute ritual to recharge pact slots that scales. Once at level 5, twice at level 11, and thrice at level 17. Meanwhile its slot progression would be two at its highest level and two at the level below that, like the Pathfinder Magus.
If they went this route you wouldn't have the twice or thrice. The once sure, and that could be a solve. But that is the point, if the warlock is going to be a "full caster" it isn't going to get a martial level cantrip like it currently has had for the entire life of 5e. That is a give and take. Like I said, there are multiple solves. This 2 highest 2 second highest that you can recover once per day on a short rest + the normal mystic arcanums would be a fine solution. It also likely wouldn't be after a 1 minute thing it would just be once per day when you take a short rest. I could also see it bumping to 3 and 3 at higher levels like 15 or something.
If they went this route my bet would be something like this.
You can recover your spells on a short rest once per long rest.
Level 1 One first
Level 2 two first
Level 3 two first 1 second
Level 4 two first 2 second
Level 5 two second 2 third.
7 3rd 2 4th
9 2 4th 2 5th
11 mystic arcanum
13 mystic arcanum 3 4th, 2 5th
15 mystic arcanum
17 final arcanum 3 4th, 3 5th.
2 invocations at 2, 3 at 5, 4 at 9, 5 at 11, 6 at 15, 7 at 19. And yes, regardless of how they do it I am 100% on board for having agonizing blast just be part of Eldritch blast. If it is linked to warlock levels already that Invocation tax needs to die in a fire.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
So what you wanted was a pure buff in tier 2 to a class that was already pretty strong. Instead of having to make trade offs for a more SATISFYING Tier 2 and more balanced tier 3 and almost balanced tier 4 (Capstone was still complete booty). Tier 3 Warlock still gets same number of 6th level spells. Still have a 5th, a 4th, multiple 3rd level casts and on the old warlock list the 3rd level spells were some of the best anyway. The 6th level spell access is better, the 4th is better and the 5th is better, by the end of Tier 3 They have a better 7th level spell than before, a 6th just like before and they are trading 3 5, for 1 5, Could be 3 four, and 3 3rd.
Thing about short rests are always this. You don't get to plan when you get them, you could spend 2 spells and then get a short and only recover 2. You could spend all 3 spells and go into a fight with no spells left and THEN get a short rest. You can't use a lower level slot for a lower level spell, so even if that lower level spell is what solves the issue you are still using your 5th level slot for it. All of these things are not taken into consideration when people talk about "the power lost at T3 and T4" it is always theoretical power, not the actual power in the game.
Edit: before this thread gets much farther I am just going to say there is a LOT of solutions that could work for Warlock. This one was one, I could see the bounded spell casting where they give you spells back on a short rest ONCE per long but they also provide some lower level slots. Like at level 5 having 2 3rd and 2 2nd level slots, and level 7 it becoming 2 4th and 2 3rd. I don't know where this is going to land, but Warlocks will definitely not be full casters. They will DEFINITELY have access to spells at the same rate as full casters. That is all we know.
Should Warlocks be converted to long rest refreshes? Pro’ly. Should they have a better spell list? Definitely. Should they have gotten access to Invocations that grant at will casting of a broader variety of low-level spells to compensate for not having lower level spell slots? Absolutely. Should they get half-caster spell progression? Absolutely not.
The question you need to ask yourself is "what do you think the Warlock should GIVE UP for the extra power you are asking for in other areas?" The class was decently balanced so any gain must and should come with a cost. Keep that in mind when analyzing it. This isn't like the rogue or the Monk who were just weak.
Well if it was so balanced and wonderful then what the eff is anyone complaining about? Leave it alone.
Balanced does not equal satisfying. It was balanced, but inconsistent and unsatisfying. It worked at some tables, not at others. It was OP at some tables Under Powered at others. Balanced in theory does not mean it was functioning as intended at every table. It needed changing so that it would be balanced in practice and not just in theory.
*See Crawford* "Actual power vs Theoretical power".
So then it wasn’t actually balanced is what you’re saying. So what’s the problem with my suggestions?
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
Do you genuinely believe it's good balance for the Warlock to be able to toss out several times more 5th-level spells than any other caster in the game?
Considering that half of them were really 1st-3rd level spells that got no benefit from upcasting except they were harder to counter, and that they couldn’t cast any 1st-4th level spells any other way, yes. But as I said, convert them to a long rest class. That would entail increasing their number of slots at lower levels and decreasing them at higher levels to maintain the balance.
Just to clarify, I do think the Warlock should be switched to a long rest recharge, and I do think they need to remain balanced, that’s why I came up with this a while ago in another thread about this:
The first one was my initial idea with the logic behind it, the second one was revised after some feedback. That’s where I’d like to see them go with the Warlock.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
Do you genuinely believe it's good balance for the Warlock to be able to toss out several times more 5th-level spells than any other caster in the game?
Considering that half of them were really 1st-3rd level spells that got no benefit from upcasting except they were harder to counter, and that they couldn’t cast any 1st-4th level spells any other way, yes. But as I said, convert them to a long rest class. That would entail increasing their number of slots at lower levels and decreasing them at higher levels to maintain the balance.
in other words they were actually casting 1-2 5th level spells, 1-2 3rd level spell and 1-2 4th level spells which is still significantly less than a full caster, and that is only if they were doing like 15-20 rounds of combat per day in order to justify 2 SRs. If we are talking about level 20 then fullcasters are usually casting 2 spells per round, while the warlock is maybe cast one spell per round if they saved all their Mystic Arcanums for that big battle.
I think Eldritch Blast is actually a big part of the problem.
If you're looking at the damage numbers a given class can pump out, sure, EB makes the Warlock mechanically equivalent to any other class. The problem with EB, as I see it is that this doesn't translate to character. The extra abilities on a Warlock (including arcane half-casting) are fine, but I don't believe add up to a memorable play experience for the class in the long run.
To go on a little bit of a tangent, people play the "suboptimal" warrior classes because no matter how underpowered they may be compared to the full casters they still possess an archetypical role that someone is going to want to play. There is a certain psychological reward to being a warrior character in TTRPG's that's unique to the warrior classes, and that's got nothing to do with how much damage they can pump out per round.
What the 1/2 caster Warlock is missing is that essential warrior portion subsection. There's a reason the Bard got upgraded to a full caster after 3rd edition; just being a half-caster without the ability to fill in that warrior role is insufficient to give the class an identity within the dynamics of the party. They lacked the opportunist damage output of the rogue, the nova strike and or utility benefits of an arcane full caster, and survivability or offensive melee power to be on the front lines. The solution to that problem was to recognize that bards needed to embrace their role as casters first.
The new Warlock has an issue similar to the (very) old Bard. It cannot throw down a nova strike or game-changing utility spell like a full caster, and it lacks the survivability to hang on the front lines with real warrior classes. Yes, Eldritch Blast solves this problem by providing significant round by round damage, but with the exception of MA are no outlets for a Warlock that wants to go all out in a given battle.
It's important to note that Going "all out" here means different things for different characters. Full casters obviously do this by using high-level spell slots, but I'd argue warriors do this by choosing to go toe to toe with fearsome boss monsters. When I think of memorable parts of playing a warrior, I don't think about it so much as when I rolled the most damage; I think about my experience facing down the most powerful foes directly. This isn't something that's going to translate well into a statistical rendering of damage per round, but I think anyone who's played a warrior class going mono-e-mono with a true dragon knows the feeling of excitement and glory that comes with it. Half-caster warriors supplement this warrior role with their spells, but those spells aren't enough to fill in that archetype experience.
In my personal experience, this wasn't a problem with the old Warlock because my DM would pepper short rests into significant parts of our adventures. I could hang onto one or two spell slots when we came across a significant big bad, and I could expend one spell slot for a long-duration spell for general buffs or utility. There was also almost always space for short rests in a dungeon crawl between the mid-point and the boss battle. So I still had to preserve my spells to a much greater degree than a full caster, even if I was pretty much guaranteed a few rounds of going all out when there was a real need. I 100% agree with you that this is not an optimal solution for the health of the game, but on the other hand, I believe the new Warlock class loses its spice in trying to fix this issue.
So, my solution. I think the primary question we have to ask here is what role can a half-caster Warlock take that isn't already taken by the resilient paladin or skill expert ranger? I think the answer is to make the Warlock a selfish damage caster, to give them the ability to play into their role as primary damage dealers, but who have to weigh the benefit of their major powers against significant costs and risks. The idea is to make them capable of lighting up the battlefield but within the same limited utility and lack of variety already built into the class. Toward that end, I'd propose the following four changes or additions:
1. Remove the Bladelock's ability to use their Casting Mod for attacks and damage and replace it with a real mechanic unique to the Warlock. The Blade Pact Warlock is the only class in the game that gets this, it creates weird multi-class incentives, and it doesn't actually add as much power to a Warlock as the ability seems to on paper. A Bladelock is still going to want medium Dex to go with their medium armor prof, a Hexadin will still need to invest a minimum in strength, etc. Since we're removing the SAD benefit, we can also remove the limitation on Pact weapon selection to cover any melee weapon instead. Instead, Bladelock gets:
Revised Pact of the Blade: The Warlocks Pact Weapon becomes a Spell Focus. At first level when the Warlock takes the Attack action with their Pact Weapon they may also expend their Bonus Action to take the Magic action. This Magic action must be used to cast a spell that is not a cantrip, that targets the Warlock or originates from or centers on the Warlock's space, and cannot possess the healing tag. At 5th level, the Warlock instead gains the ability to either make a 2nd attack when making the attack action with a pact weapon, or to take a magic action, using the same limitations on what spell can be cast. At 11th level the Warlock gains the ability to make a second attack and a magic action within the same limitations. A Warlock cannot cast the Eldritch Blast Cantrip while wielding their Pact weapon.
(Update following commentary on these changes, I've removed Cantrips as an option for the spell)
This ability helps emphasize the Warlock's nova strike abilities and makes them a fearsome melee combatant while still keeping the risk present when taking the class into melee. It solidifies the Warlock as a high-risk, high-reward half-caster who works best by wading into a group of enemies to absolutely go to town on 'em. This also avoids the problem of forcing us to ask if the Warlock is a warrior or a mage; they're an assassin whose priority is getting to an enemy and ripping through them. The last clause prevents the Bladelock from having their cake and eating it too with EB; they have to choose whether they will be playing it safe as merely a blaster or going full bore into melee.
2. Emphasized Patron Spell access. At levels even levels from 4-18 the Warlock gains the ability to cast their Patrons spell once per long rest. If the Warlock has chosen the Mystic Arcanum feature they may cast either their Mystic Arcanum spell for that level or their Patron Spell for that level.
This one's simple, and mainly exists to give the Warlock wider rather than deeper MA access. I think the big problem with MA is that it's dependent on a single decision made on a level-by-level basis. So either you're going to have a bunch of Warlock players who pick the same set of spells, or your Warlock is going to have a generally less useful or impactful spell for that invocation choice. We certainly don't want Warlocks to be as broadly effective or adaptable as full casters, but increasing their access to full caster level spell choice by a single spell one level after full casters get it does wonders for increasing the Warlocks flavor. This automatic access to to a MA slot gained one level later than normal goes hand in hand with change #3, below.
3. Burn the Conflagration Soul: At 7th level, a Warlock may Upcast one Warlock spell they know up to a level of their highest Mystic Arcanum or Patron Spell at the cost 1d10+1/2 levels (round up) hit point drain that cannot be avoided or recovered in any manner. The Warlock suffers this drain immediately after the spell is cast. Drained hit points can be recovered by rolling hit die to restore HP during a short rest, and are recovered completely during a long rest. This hit point drain is in addition to the cost of the original spells slot. A Warlock may use this ability a number of times equal to their primary spell casting ability modifier, restoring all uses on a long rest.
So a 3rd-4th level spell upcast would cost 2d10+2, a 5th and 6th level 3d10+3, 7th and 8th 4d10+4, and a 9th level 5d10+5. This ability primarily exists to restore the 2014 Warlock's ability to really pump up the power of upcasted spells. Having played the old Warlock, this was one of my favorite features of the class; a first or second-level spell could be vaulted to significant potency; I see this as the return of an ability that would go a long way toward preserving what I see as an important theme of the class. The unmodifiable hit point damage also guarantees that a Warlock isn't going to be casting these spells casually, and the limitation of only spells on their 1st - 5th level list prevents the Warlock from casting additional high-level spells like a full caster might. The big idea here is to turn the Warlock into a glass cannon warrior; while they lack the toughness or adaptability of other half-casters they make up for it in the ability to either nova strike or pull off a potent Upcast spell that could change the course of the combat.
4. Grasp the Occult Echo: At 9th level, the Warlock can use the arcane energy of a broken spell to fuel a new casting. Whenever a spell that the Warlock is concentrating on is ended due to damage, the Warlock may use their Reaction to cast a spell with a concentration component with a spell slot one lower than the disrupted spell. The duration of this new spell is equal to the remaining duration of the original spell or that of the new spell, whichever is shorter. A warlock may use this ability a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus, restored on a long rest.
The point of this ability is to offset the risk of concentration spells while still granting enemies the ability to break them. Yes, this makes the Warlock better at keeping themselves buffed than a full arcane caster, but that's pretty much the point here. If they cannot make a significant impact from the back they need the ability to go round for round with the front line. We all know the Warlock's spells make up for their lack of warrior prowess; this ability helps prevent the warlock from becoming a red smear on the ground following a few bad rolls.
Even if you disagree with my proposed fixes here, I hope you can see where I'm coming from as far as giving the UA Warlock opportunity to shine within a niche without stepping on the power or themes of other classes.
The new Warlock has an issue similar to the (very) old Bard. It cannot throw down a nova strike or game changing utility spell like a full caster, and they it lacks the survivability to hang on the front lines with real warrior classes. Yes, Eldritch Blast solves this problem by providing significant round by round damage, but with the exception of MA are no outlets for a Warlock that wants to go all out in a given battle.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!
The Warlock is better at hanging on the front lines than the real warrior classes.
> Warlock: (Medium Armour) = 15 AC + 2 DEX + 2 (shield) = 19 + as needed Shield spell = AC 24! > Paladin/Fighter: (Heavy Armour) = AC 18, if they sacrifice significant DPR by not using a Polearm, or Heavy weapon (which get better feats and better weapon masteries) they can use a shield for AC 20. > Barbarian: (unarmoured)10 + 2 DEX + 3 CON = AC 15, + as needed Resistance to b/s/p - however note that magical b/s/p are being replaced with force damage so this is not as good as it used to be. > Barbarian (Medium Armour) = 15 + 2 DEX = AC 17, if they want to match just the baseline warlock AC they have to give up approximately 40% of their DPR.
Warlocks get access to all the best utility spells like a full caster.
Best utility spells in the game: Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Disguise Self, Find Familiar, Web, Misty Step, Invisibility, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Polymorph, Dimension Door, Wall of Force, Teleportation Circle, Globe of Invulnerability, Plane Shift, Wish.
These classes can first get access to these spells at the following levels: Warlock: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 2 - at will), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual), Web (level 5), Misty Step (level 5), Invisibility (level 5) Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5) Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7) Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9) -> only one of the two at this level, you can pick up the other at Level 15 Globe of Invulnerability (level 11) Plane Shift (level 13) Wish (level 17) Wizard: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 1), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual), Web (level 3), Misty Step (level 3), Invisibility (level 3), Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5) Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7) Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9) Globe of Invulnerability (level 11) Plane Shift (level 13) Wish (level 17)
The new Warlock has an issue similar to the (very) old Bard. It cannot throw down a nova strike or game changing utility spell like a full caster, and they it lacks the survivability to hang on the front lines with real warrior classes. Yes, Eldritch Blast solves this problem by providing significant round by round damage, but with the exception of MA are no outlets for a Warlock that wants to go all out in a given battle.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!
The Warlock is better at hanging on the front lines than the real warrior classes.
> Warlock: (Medium Armour) = 15 AC + 2 DEX + 2 (shield) = 19 + as needed Shield spell = AC 24! > Paladin/Fighter: (Heavy Armour) = AC 18, if they sacrifice significant DPR by not using a Polearm, or Heavy weapon (which get better feats and better weapon masteries) they can use a shield for AC 20. > Barbarian: (unarmoured)10 + 2 DEX + 3 CON = AC 15, + as needed Resistance to b/s/p - however note that magical b/s/p are being replaced with force damage so this is not as good as it used to be. > Barbarian (Medium Armour) = 15 + 2 DEX = AC 17, if they want to match just the baseline warlock AC they have to give up approximately 40% of their DPR.
Warlocks get access to all the best utility spells like a full caster.
Best utility spells in the game: Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Disguise Self, Find Familiar, Web, Misty Step, Invisibility, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Polymorph, Dimension Door, Wall of Force, Teleportation Circle, Globe of Invulnerability, Plane Shift, Wish.
These classes can first get access to these spells at the following levels: Warlock: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 2 - at will), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual), Web (level 5), Misty Step (level 5), Invisibility (level 5) Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5) Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7) Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9) -> only one of the two at this level, you can pick up the other at Level 15 Globe of Invulnerability (level 11) Plane Shift (level 13) Wish (level 17) Wizard: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 1), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual), Web (level 3), Misty Step (level 3), Invisibility (level 3), Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5) Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7) Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9) Globe of Invulnerability (level 11) Plane Shift (level 13) Wish (level 17)
You're vastly over-emphasizing the importance of shield. Not mechanically, but as I said my primary point isn't about mechanics but about memorable moments in play. Sure, the Warlock can cast Shiled 2-4 times per day, but the benefit of that casting is is what exactly? You avoid one potent enemy hit, or several hits from less potent enemies. You do this at the expense of =>1st level spells that exist to help you keep pace with the other characters. Higher hp, weapon masteries, and fighting styles, all the things that warriors get to help them on the front are expected to be made up for with spells. AC is one small piece of the puzzle, and far from the most important when you consider that spending those slots on shield negates their use elsewhere.
As for utility spells, your argument is treating MA as identical to a full caster's spell access, which is far from equivalent. A lot of the power of utility spells comes from their ability to solve individual problems as they appear, and full casters also have the ability to upcast their lower-level spells when pure spellcasting potency is called for. Lastly, if you look at my suggestions, none of them grant the Warlock access to full-caster spells any faster than the UA Warlock; they mostly give the Warlock more ways to utilize the limited number and per day spells they do have for increased effect when it matters.
As for access to utility spells, the game is balanced around the assumption that utility spells have a certain amount of potency as a caster gets access to them. The higher level you are the less and less effective spells like Misty Step, Darkness, Invisibility, Wall of Force, etc are going to be. There will certainly still be occasions when these spells can turn the narrative, but the much slower access to these tools is going to decrease their effect in play, which is my primary concern.
memorable moments is play is something that is not quantifiable player to player. Mechanics is what is important, as it is a constant between every table. They're always going to work the same.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Nah. The purpose of mechanics is to enhance the narrative of the game. A mechanic that improves the likelihood of memorable moments in game improves it, while a mechanic that decreases those moments is a detrimental change.
The new Warlock has an issue similar to the (very) old Bard. It cannot throw down a nova strike or game changing utility spell like a full caster, and they it lacks the survivability to hang on the front lines with real warrior classes. Yes, Eldritch Blast solves this problem by providing significant round by round damage, but with the exception of MA are no outlets for a Warlock that wants to go all out in a given battle.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!
The Warlock is better at hanging on the front lines than the real warrior classes.
> Warlock: (Medium Armour) = 15 AC + 2 DEX + 2 (shield) = 19 + as needed Shield spell = AC 24!
> Paladin/Fighter: (Heavy Armour) = AC 18, if they sacrifice significant DPR by not using a Polearm, or Heavy weapon (which get better feats and better weapon masteries) they can use a shield for AC 20. > Barbarian: (unarmoured)10 + 2 DEX + 3 CON = AC 15, + as needed Resistance to b/s/p - however note that magical b/s/p are being replaced with force damage so this is not as good as it used to be. > Barbarian (Medium Armour) = 15 + 2 DEX = AC 17, if they want to match just the baseline warlock AC they have to give up approximately 40% of their DPR.
Warlocks get access to all the best utility spells like a full caster.
Best utility spells in the game: Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Disguise Self, Find Familiar, Web, Misty Step, Invisibility, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Polymorph, Dimension Door, Wall of Force, Teleportation Circle, Globe of Invulnerability, Plane Shift, Wish.
These classes can first get access to these spells at the following levels: Warlock: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 2 - at will), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual), Web (level 5), Misty Step (level 5), Invisibility (level 5) Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5) Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7) Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9) -> only one of the two at this level, you can pick up the other at Level 15 Globe of Invulnerability (level 11) Plane Shift (level 13) Wish (level 17) Wizard: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 1), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual), Web (level 3), Misty Step (level 3), Invisibility (level 3), Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5) Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7) Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9) Globe of Invulnerability (level 11) Plane Shift (level 13) Wish (level 17)
You're vastly over-emphasizing the importance of shield. Not mechanically, but as I said my primary point isn't about mechanics but about memorable moments in play. Sure, the Warlock can cast Shiled 2-4 times per day, but the benefit of that casting is is what exactly? You avoid one potent enemy hit, or several hits from less potent enemies. You do this at the expense of =>1st level spells that exist to help you keep pace with the other characters. Higher hp, weapon masteries, and fighting styles, all the things that warriors get to help them on the front are expected to be made up for with spells. AC is one small piece of the puzzle, and far from the most important when you consider that spending those slots on shield negates their use elsewhere.
As for utility spells, your argument is treating MA as identical to a full caster's spell access, which is far from equivalent. A lot of the power of utility spells comes from their ability to solve individual problems as they appear, and full casters also have the ability to upcast their lower-level spells when pure spellcasting potency is called for. Lastly, if you look at my suggestions, none of them grant the Warlock access to full-caster spells any faster than the UA Warlock; they mostly give the Warlock more ways to utilize the limited number and per day spells they do have for increased effect when it matters.
As for access to utility spells, the game is balanced around the assumption that utility spells have a certain amount of potency as a caster gets access to them. The higher level you are the less and less effective spells like Misty Step, Darkness, Invisibility, Wall of Force, etc are going to be. There will certainly still be occasions when these spells can turn the narrative, but the much slower access to these tools is going to decrease their effect in play, which is my primary concern.
whoa, warlocks aren't traditionally utility casters. not to talk for everyone, but it seems like warlocks, rangers, and other archers usually try to maximize the uptime of their damage potential. or at the very least, they see more utility in remaining in the fight for the cost of a reaction rather than saving up for a crowd control action moment that might never present itself.
i don't personally like that warlock was given a shield spell and utility spell slots (and medium armor too, why not). however, i'm not one to leave a shield un-cast just it didn't come to me in an invocation wrapper like i'd prefer. the tools warlocks have been given in the playtest are being used in the playtest. if they're not being used like a wizard would, well then maybe they're not wizards. which is good news since classes becoming too samey frustrates me.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
memorable moments is play is something that is not quantifiable player to player. Mechanics is what is important, as it is a constant between every table. They're always going to work the same.
Nah. The purpose of mechanics is to enhance the narrative of the game. A mechanic that improves the likelihood of memorable moments in game improves it, while a mechanic that decreases those moments is a detrimental change.
if warlocks require more narrative control then i'd argue what they need is a pact lore based feature: summon help from previous agreements with minor entities (mister meeseeks box situation, local pixies you sacrificed a pizza to, etc) with effects matching a 1st-level utility spell, dm to describe effects. then instead of a limited number of spell slots you might have a number of times you can invoke it per day. nothing says the character must remember to pull weeds around shrines, toss coins into wells, or leave bowls of milk out at night but that's the memorable moments someone could add in flavor whereas others might prefer to say "i cast..." any time mechanisms allow and let the dm handle the fluff.
...but narrative control isn't why warlocks in UA-5 were given many low level spell slots. according to the UA-5 video, people just asked for more things to cast. that's kinda all. low level 5e warlocks had only a few pact slots and either they were gone quick or they were horded because they'd be gone quick. essentially, the call was for less anxiety over resources. and if it turns out they're spending those resources on candy and comic books instead of a responsible savings account, well, that's their resource, isn't it? judge if you want to, but don't feel you have to.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
memorable moments is play is something that is not quantifiable player to player. Mechanics is what is important, as it is a constant between every table. They're always going to work the same.
Nah. The purpose of mechanics is to enhance the narrative of the game. A mechanic that improves the likelihood of memorable moments in game improves it, while a mechanic that decreases those moments is a detrimental change.
if warlocks require more narrative control then i'd argue what they need is a pact lore based feature: summon help from previous agreements with minor entities (mister meeseeks box situation, local pixies you sacrificed a pizza to, etc) with effects matching a 1st-level utility spell, dm to describe effects. then instead of a limited number of spell slots you might have a number of times you can invoke it per day. nothing says the character must remember to pull weeds around shrines, toss coins into wells, or leave bowls of milk out at night but that's the memorable moments someone could add in flavor whereas others might prefer to say "i cast..." any time mechanisms allow and let the dm handle the fluff.
...but narrative control isn't why warlocks in UA-5 were given many low level spell slots. according to the UA-5 video, people just asked for more things to cast. that's kinda all. low level 5e warlocks had only a few pact slots and either they were gone quick or they were horded because they'd be gone quick. essentially, the call was for less anxiety over resources. and if it turns out they're spending those resources on candy and comic books instead of a responsible savings account, well, that's their resource, isn't it? judge if you want to, but don't feel you have to.
The issue isn't control, it's the feeling of impact on the story by the character as represented by the mechanics. The primary meta of D&D is what happens in combat, so if we're judging the impact of a class that's the measuring stick, agree with it or not.
I agree that the old Warlock isn't any better than the new one, but a good DM can make up for those deficiencies by carefully plotting out short rests so the Warlock neither feels like they should never use their Pact slots nor feels like they can get back their spell slots whenever convenient.
As for judgement, what's your point? I'm not holding anyone at gunpoint or shouting at anyone to agree with me or else. I'm proposing a solution for what feels like a problem to me. I guess thank you for pointing out that I don't have to believe what I believe?
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To "match" the casting of a true full caster the UA Warlock needs between 2 and 4 Mystic Arcanum.
That is a significant portion of their invocations at each level.
The ability to cast low level utility spells using low level spell slots does not compensate for losing the ability to have the same spell access as a full caster to make major changes.
Fireball at level 5 is powerful. Counterspell at level 5 is powerful. Fly at level 5 is powerful. If you're using Mystic Arcanum then you only get one of those at level 5, and only once per day. At level 9, when you get the ability to have all three, full casters have their choice of level 5 spells, their power level is reduced, especially without the ability to upcast them.
So the Arcane Bard or the Sorcerer are clearly superior.
I showed this earlier, but the mystic arcanum bit isn't exactly true. And beyond that, again the warlock is not a "full caster" they shouldn't "Match" the casting of a full caster. if they could than EB would need to be severely toned down. Closer to Sorcerer's new Cantrip.
Edit: for those that don't know, All of the Pacts with the new Warlock lost their "pact invocation tax" and provided utility that previously needed an invocation for right at level 1, and provides further utility usually at level 5. Essentially providing the warlock 2 more invocations by level 5, One of which is used on the new invocation tax that is Mystic Arcanum, but leaving you with 2 more. By 7 it is 2 invocations used, by level 9 it is STILL just 2 invocations used because the 3rd level mystic becomes the 5th level mystic. Effectively meaning less than half of all your invocations will be used on Mystic arcanum tax. While also losing 2 invocation taxes from your pacts and gaining an extra invocation in the later levels. In total it nets to about 1 invocation difference, which would be solved by another invocation at 3 and another mystic arcanum available at that level.
Meaning there's still an invocation tax for mystic arcanum that's even greater than the invocation tax that already existed, as well as a nerf that halves your spell level progression to what it used to be in exchange for a small number of lower level spell slots. 4 out of 9 invocations are going to be spent just to achieve a fraction of what it replaces.
The Sorcerer's new cantrip is trash tier.
But at least it's free and doesn't cost you anything.
Warlocks had a functional system. Just replace "short rest recharges" with another system.
I suggested a 1 minute ritual to recharge pact slots that scales. Once at level 5, twice at level 11, and thrice at level 17. Meanwhile its slot progression would be two at its highest level and two at the level below that, like the Pathfinder Magus.
I said this, It is an 1 more invocation tax.
You are +1 invocations , and you are +2 from the loss of taxes from pact and then -4 granting a total of -1. For it to even their needs to be one more invocation at 3 and allow mystic arcanum at 3.But as is For level 5 you are +2 from loss of tax from pact and -1 from tax from Mystic so you are total of +1 invocations you are not down here, but this is also the level that hurts the most in spell casting. At level 7 it is even and this is the level you match a full caster in highest level spell slots, at level 9 it is even same as 7th, it isn't till level 11 when you would normally get arcanum that you are -1 but at this point you are closest you will ever be to a full caster from this point forward, this is also where you get a 3rd ray on EB, and you stay -1 the rest of your career. So at all levels where the "loss" happens you are even or +1 invocation to make up for it.
If they went this route you wouldn't have the twice or thrice. The once sure, and that could be a solve. But that is the point, if the warlock is going to be a "full caster" it isn't going to get a martial level cantrip like it currently has had for the entire life of 5e. That is a give and take. Like I said, there are multiple solves. This 2 highest 2 second highest that you can recover once per day on a short rest + the normal mystic arcanums would be a fine solution. It also likely wouldn't be after a 1 minute thing it would just be once per day when you take a short rest. I could also see it bumping to 3 and 3 at higher levels like 15 or something.
If they went this route my bet would be something like this.
You can recover your spells on a short rest once per long rest.
Level 1 One first
Level 2 two first
Level 3 two first 1 second
Level 4 two first 2 second
Level 5 two second 2 third.
7 3rd 2 4th
9 2 4th 2 5th
11 mystic arcanum
13 mystic arcanum 3 4th, 2 5th
15 mystic arcanum
17 final arcanum 3 4th, 3 5th.
2 invocations at 2, 3 at 5, 4 at 9, 5 at 11, 6 at 15, 7 at 19. And yes, regardless of how they do it I am 100% on board for having agonizing blast just be part of Eldritch blast. If it is linked to warlock levels already that Invocation tax needs to die in a fire.
So then it wasn’t actually balanced is what you’re saying. So what’s the problem with my suggestions?
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Considering that half of them were really 1st-3rd level spells that got no benefit from upcasting except they were harder to counter, and that they couldn’t cast any 1st-4th level spells any other way, yes. But as I said, convert them to a long rest class. That would entail increasing their number of slots at lower levels and decreasing them at higher levels to maintain the balance.
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Just to clarify, I do think the Warlock should be switched to a long rest recharge, and I do think they need to remain balanced, that’s why I came up with this a while ago in another thread about this:
The first one was my initial idea with the logic behind it, the second one was revised after some feedback. That’s where I’d like to see them go with the Warlock.
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in other words they were actually casting 1-2 5th level spells, 1-2 3rd level spell and 1-2 4th level spells which is still significantly less than a full caster, and that is only if they were doing like 15-20 rounds of combat per day in order to justify 2 SRs. If we are talking about level 20 then fullcasters are usually casting 2 spells per round, while the warlock is maybe cast one spell per round if they saved all their Mystic Arcanums for that big battle.
If you hate the class so much then don’t play it. But don’t ruin it for the rest of us who like it.
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I think Eldritch Blast is actually a big part of the problem.
If you're looking at the damage numbers a given class can pump out, sure, EB makes the Warlock mechanically equivalent to any other class. The problem with EB, as I see it is that this doesn't translate to character. The extra abilities on a Warlock (including arcane half-casting) are fine, but I don't believe add up to a memorable play experience for the class in the long run.
To go on a little bit of a tangent, people play the "suboptimal" warrior classes because no matter how underpowered they may be compared to the full casters they still possess an archetypical role that someone is going to want to play. There is a certain psychological reward to being a warrior character in TTRPG's that's unique to the warrior classes, and that's got nothing to do with how much damage they can pump out per round.
What the 1/2 caster Warlock is missing is that essential warrior portion subsection. There's a reason the Bard got upgraded to a full caster after 3rd edition; just being a half-caster without the ability to fill in that warrior role is insufficient to give the class an identity within the dynamics of the party. They lacked the opportunist damage output of the rogue, the nova strike and or utility benefits of an arcane full caster, and survivability or offensive melee power to be on the front lines. The solution to that problem was to recognize that bards needed to embrace their role as casters first.
The new Warlock has an issue similar to the (very) old Bard. It cannot throw down a nova strike or game-changing utility spell like a full caster, and it lacks the survivability to hang on the front lines with real warrior classes. Yes, Eldritch Blast solves this problem by providing significant round by round damage, but with the exception of MA are no outlets for a Warlock that wants to go all out in a given battle.
It's important to note that Going "all out" here means different things for different characters. Full casters obviously do this by using high-level spell slots, but I'd argue warriors do this by choosing to go toe to toe with fearsome boss monsters. When I think of memorable parts of playing a warrior, I don't think about it so much as when I rolled the most damage; I think about my experience facing down the most powerful foes directly. This isn't something that's going to translate well into a statistical rendering of damage per round, but I think anyone who's played a warrior class going mono-e-mono with a true dragon knows the feeling of excitement and glory that comes with it. Half-caster warriors supplement this warrior role with their spells, but those spells aren't enough to fill in that archetype experience.
In my personal experience, this wasn't a problem with the old Warlock because my DM would pepper short rests into significant parts of our adventures. I could hang onto one or two spell slots when we came across a significant big bad, and I could expend one spell slot for a long-duration spell for general buffs or utility. There was also almost always space for short rests in a dungeon crawl between the mid-point and the boss battle. So I still had to preserve my spells to a much greater degree than a full caster, even if I was pretty much guaranteed a few rounds of going all out when there was a real need. I 100% agree with you that this is not an optimal solution for the health of the game, but on the other hand, I believe the new Warlock class loses its spice in trying to fix this issue.
So, my solution. I think the primary question we have to ask here is what role can a half-caster Warlock take that isn't already taken by the resilient paladin or skill expert ranger? I think the answer is to make the Warlock a selfish damage caster, to give them the ability to play into their role as primary damage dealers, but who have to weigh the benefit of their major powers against significant costs and risks. The idea is to make them capable of lighting up the battlefield but within the same limited utility and lack of variety already built into the class. Toward that end, I'd propose the following four changes or additions:
This ability helps emphasize the Warlock's nova strike abilities and makes them a fearsome melee combatant while still keeping the risk present when taking the class into melee. It solidifies the Warlock as a high-risk, high-reward half-caster who works best by wading into a group of enemies to absolutely go to town on 'em. This also avoids the problem of forcing us to ask if the Warlock is a warrior or a mage; they're an assassin whose priority is getting to an enemy and ripping through them. The last clause prevents the Bladelock from having their cake and eating it too with EB; they have to choose whether they will be playing it safe as merely a blaster or going full bore into melee.
This one's simple, and mainly exists to give the Warlock wider rather than deeper MA access. I think the big problem with MA is that it's dependent on a single decision made on a level-by-level basis. So either you're going to have a bunch of Warlock players who pick the same set of spells, or your Warlock is going to have a generally less useful or impactful spell for that invocation choice. We certainly don't want Warlocks to be as broadly effective or adaptable as full casters, but increasing their access to full caster level spell choice by a single spell one level after full casters get it does wonders for increasing the Warlocks flavor. This automatic access to to a MA slot gained one level later than normal goes hand in hand with change #3, below.
So a 3rd-4th level spell upcast would cost 2d10+2, a 5th and 6th level 3d10+3, 7th and 8th 4d10+4, and a 9th level 5d10+5. This ability primarily exists to restore the 2014 Warlock's ability to really pump up the power of upcasted spells. Having played the old Warlock, this was one of my favorite features of the class; a first or second-level spell could be vaulted to significant potency; I see this as the return of an ability that would go a long way toward preserving what I see as an important theme of the class. The unmodifiable hit point damage also guarantees that a Warlock isn't going to be casting these spells casually, and the limitation of only spells on their 1st - 5th level list prevents the Warlock from casting additional high-level spells like a full caster might. The big idea here is to turn the Warlock into a glass cannon warrior; while they lack the toughness or adaptability of other half-casters they make up for it in the ability to either nova strike or pull off a potent Upcast spell that could change the course of the combat.
The point of this ability is to offset the risk of concentration spells while still granting enemies the ability to break them. Yes, this makes the Warlock better at keeping themselves buffed than a full arcane caster, but that's pretty much the point here. If they cannot make a significant impact from the back they need the ability to go round for round with the front line. We all know the Warlock's spells make up for their lack of warrior prowess; this ability helps prevent the warlock from becoming a red smear on the ground following a few bad rolls.
===================================================
Even if you disagree with my proposed fixes here, I hope you can see where I'm coming from as far as giving the UA Warlock opportunity to shine within a niche without stepping on the power or themes of other classes.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!
The Warlock is better at hanging on the front lines than the real warrior classes.
> Warlock: (Medium Armour) = 15 AC + 2 DEX + 2 (shield) = 19 + as needed Shield spell = AC 24!
> Paladin/Fighter: (Heavy Armour) = AC 18, if they sacrifice significant DPR by not using a Polearm, or Heavy weapon (which get better feats and better weapon masteries) they can use a shield for AC 20.
> Barbarian: (unarmoured)10 + 2 DEX + 3 CON = AC 15, + as needed Resistance to b/s/p - however note that magical b/s/p are being replaced with force damage so this is not as good as it used to be.
> Barbarian (Medium Armour) = 15 + 2 DEX = AC 17, if they want to match just the baseline warlock AC they have to give up approximately 40% of their DPR.
Warlocks get access to all the best utility spells like a full caster.
Best utility spells in the game: Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Disguise Self, Find Familiar, Web, Misty Step, Invisibility, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Polymorph, Dimension Door, Wall of Force, Teleportation Circle, Globe of Invulnerability, Plane Shift, Wish.
These classes can first get access to these spells at the following levels:
Warlock: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 2 - at will), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual),
Web (level 5), Misty Step (level 5), Invisibility (level 5)
Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5)
Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7)
Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9) -> only one of the two at this level, you can pick up the other at Level 15
Globe of Invulnerability (level 11)
Plane Shift (level 13)
Wish (level 17)
Wizard: Sleep (level 1), Hideous Laughter (level 1), Disguise Self (level 1), Find Familiar (level 1 - as a ritual),
Web (level 3), Misty Step (level 3), Invisibility (level 3),
Hypnotic Pattern (level 5), Counterspell (level 5)
Polymorph (level 7), Dimension Door (level 7)
Wall of Force (level 9), Teleportation Circle (level 9)
Globe of Invulnerability (level 11)
Plane Shift (level 13)
Wish (level 17)
You're vastly over-emphasizing the importance of shield. Not mechanically, but as I said my primary point isn't about mechanics but about memorable moments in play. Sure, the Warlock can cast Shiled 2-4 times per day, but the benefit of that casting is is what exactly? You avoid one potent enemy hit, or several hits from less potent enemies. You do this at the expense of =>1st level spells that exist to help you keep pace with the other characters. Higher hp, weapon masteries, and fighting styles, all the things that warriors get to help them on the front are expected to be made up for with spells. AC is one small piece of the puzzle, and far from the most important when you consider that spending those slots on shield negates their use elsewhere.
As for utility spells, your argument is treating MA as identical to a full caster's spell access, which is far from equivalent. A lot of the power of utility spells comes from their ability to solve individual problems as they appear, and full casters also have the ability to upcast their lower-level spells when pure spellcasting potency is called for. Lastly, if you look at my suggestions, none of them grant the Warlock access to full-caster spells any faster than the UA Warlock; they mostly give the Warlock more ways to utilize the limited number and per day spells they do have for increased effect when it matters.
As for access to utility spells, the game is balanced around the assumption that utility spells have a certain amount of potency as a caster gets access to them. The higher level you are the less and less effective spells like Misty Step, Darkness, Invisibility, Wall of Force, etc are going to be. There will certainly still be occasions when these spells can turn the narrative, but the much slower access to these tools is going to decrease their effect in play, which is my primary concern.
memorable moments is play is something that is not quantifiable player to player. Mechanics is what is important, as it is a constant between every table. They're always going to work the same.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Nah. The purpose of mechanics is to enhance the narrative of the game. A mechanic that improves the likelihood of memorable moments in game improves it, while a mechanic that decreases those moments is a detrimental change.
whoa, warlocks aren't traditionally utility casters. not to talk for everyone, but it seems like warlocks, rangers, and other archers usually try to maximize the uptime of their damage potential. or at the very least, they see more utility in remaining in the fight for the cost of a reaction rather than saving up for a crowd control action moment that might never present itself.
i don't personally like that warlock was given a shield spell and utility spell slots (and medium armor too, why not). however, i'm not one to leave a shield un-cast just it didn't come to me in an invocation wrapper like i'd prefer. the tools warlocks have been given in the playtest are being used in the playtest. if they're not being used like a wizard would, well then maybe they're not wizards. which is good news since classes becoming too samey frustrates me.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
if warlocks require more narrative control then i'd argue what they need is a pact lore based feature: summon help from previous agreements with minor entities (mister meeseeks box situation, local pixies you sacrificed a pizza to, etc) with effects matching a 1st-level utility spell, dm to describe effects. then instead of a limited number of spell slots you might have a number of times you can invoke it per day. nothing says the character must remember to pull weeds around shrines, toss coins into wells, or leave bowls of milk out at night but that's the memorable moments someone could add in flavor whereas others might prefer to say "i cast..." any time mechanisms allow and let the dm handle the fluff.
...but narrative control isn't why warlocks in UA-5 were given many low level spell slots. according to the UA-5 video, people just asked for more things to cast. that's kinda all. low level 5e warlocks had only a few pact slots and either they were gone quick or they were horded because they'd be gone quick. essentially, the call was for less anxiety over resources. and if it turns out they're spending those resources on candy and comic books instead of a responsible savings account, well, that's their resource, isn't it? judge if you want to, but don't feel you have to.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Did you just make a Dresden Files reference?!
The issue isn't control, it's the feeling of impact on the story by the character as represented by the mechanics. The primary meta of D&D is what happens in combat, so if we're judging the impact of a class that's the measuring stick, agree with it or not.
I agree that the old Warlock isn't any better than the new one, but a good DM can make up for those deficiencies by carefully plotting out short rests so the Warlock neither feels like they should never use their Pact slots nor feels like they can get back their spell slots whenever convenient.
As for judgement, what's your point? I'm not holding anyone at gunpoint or shouting at anyone to agree with me or else. I'm proposing a solution for what feels like a problem to me. I guess thank you for pointing out that I don't have to believe what I believe?