Comparing CD: Twilight Sanctuary to healing spirit is a massive exaggeration. It is a more like an AOE false life every turn.
How is comparing twilight sanctuary to healing spirit a "massive exaggeration" ?
TS give d8 hp (it really doesn't matter that they are temporary, HS only d6. TS is 30' HS only 5'. HS uses a spell slot. TS doesn't. HS requires concentration. TS does not.
In what way is TS not only as good, but better then HS ?? (which many people think, is already a very OP spell. So much so, that I have read/watched 3 different ways that people suggest nerffing it. One of them being from Jeremy Crawford himself)
Well...the temporary HP doesn't stack. So at best, the allies are merely postponing damage they are sustaining, with a small buffer between them and death.
A repeatable buffer, yes, but one that will only reduce heavy damage by a small margin.
I feel like Onomancy will be very dependant on a cooperative-minded DM, at least for non-combat name finding. “Yes, Graz’zt is widely known and answers to that name, and that’s what’s in all the sources you’ve investigated, but that’s a transliteration from Abyssal into Common, and not their /true/ name. Also, you don’t speak Abyssal, so your pronunciation is wrong”. It’d make me reticent to play one with a new group, because it sets up arguments and rules lawyering.
You’re also SOL with any creatures immune to charm effects, such as many undead, fiends or constructs, making it frustratingly situational (A helmed horror has an alignment, “the ability to reason” and can understand common - does it have a true name, even though it’s immune to charm? What about an animated staff of frost? It’s neutral evil, speaks common and isn’t immune to charm effects - does it think of itself as Stuart the Evil Staff of Frost?)
Comparing CD: Twilight Sanctuary to healing spirit is a massive exaggeration. It is a more like an AOE false life every turn.
How is comparing twilight sanctuary to healing spirit a "massive exaggeration" ?
TS give d8 hp (it really doesn't matter that they are temporary, HS only d6. TS is 30' HS only 5'. HS uses a spell slot. TS doesn't. HS requires concentration. TS does not.
In what way is TS not only as good, but better then HS ?? (which many people think, is already a very OP spell)
Additionally, Twilight Shroud clears all charm and fear effects , At Level TWO. It doesnt just give you advantage pr a bonus to the save it just straight up says “nope these aren't a problem for basically the rest of the campaign” which is another aspect of this cleric that prevents a DM from pretty much using whole mechanics cause this class counters them completely
But Twilight Sanctuary doesn't heal. The thing that makes healing spirit OP is that it can fully heal the entire party out of battle. I've never heard anyone say healing spirit was broken for what it can do in battle.
Charm and frighten are not so common that DMs can't adapt. And since the cleric gets limited uses of Channel Divinity, the DM could time around those uses or use charm on characters that are out of range (I did suggest reducing the range).
Thats exactly what constitutes it as OP, the fact that the DM needs to always work around that single feature in order to use entire game mechanics. Yes fear effects might not be that common, but charm effects actually are so to say "dm should just "adapt" away from stuff is just Lame
And i dont know what you are reading but Healing Spirit is one of the strongest mid fight team heals until you get access to mass cure wounds. And yes i know that its temp hit points, because i can read, However At Second Level and extra 1d8+3 could easily be nearly doubling a characters HP
And i dont know what you are reading but Healing Spirit is one of the strongest mid fight team heals until you get access to mass cure wounds. And yes i know that its temp hit points, because i can read, However At Second Level and extra 1d8+3 could easily be nearly doubling a characters HP
It's just 1d8, not 1d8+3. *(for twilight ability; not talking about healing spirit... and, now that I think about it, you were probably referring to healing spirit too... sorry!)
So, I think that part of the (twilight ability) effect is just right. I guess I tend to like stuff like this that gives more longevity at those early, low-hp levels. It's a narrative drag to realize it's 10 a.m. and the party already is so banged up that they need a long rest. Just an opinion (there obviously tons of ways to mitigate this. It's just somewhat more likely to happen at low levels with an ill-timed crit or something). And 1d8 thp will not mean as much by mid-tier.
But, yeah, totally being able to sidestep charm/fear is definitely something DMs will have to make a big adjustment to account for. Seems like it should be advantage or something like that.
re: the druid's fire spirit fiery teleportation:
How are people reading that so far? Does everyone who gets teleported take the AoE damage too? Or just the chumps left behind? I love the mass-misty-step. Almost OP, for my taste, but makes for a very interesting ability. But it gets more complex if you've got to endure that damage to teleport...
*edited to clarify reference to twilight cleric ability
I said 1d8 + 3 cause you add the Wis mod so i was taking the standard array highest ability score mod as a generalization. It could just be +1 but it also has the potential to be +5
as for the teleportation, i kinda dont get, do you get to use it again if you summon a different use of the spirit?? Or is the "cooldown" tied to the player.
Side note: holy shit these subclass UAs are coming thick and fast. There has to be some sort of Xanathar's Guide to Everything Else in the planning stages right now, ne?
I'm calling Spelljammer with the flavour of the others.
I think it'll be feywild based, what with the wild magic barbarian, glam monk, wildfire druid, twilight cleric, and true name wizard. Adding up it sounds very Fey.
Unless they're just doing a manual of the planes type thing, that I'd also be very behind.
Side note: holy shit these subclass UAs are coming thick and fast. There has to be some sort of Xanathar's Guide to Everything Else in the planning stages right now, ne?
I'm calling Spelljammer with the flavour of the others.
I think it'll be feywild based, what with the wild magic barbarian, glam monk, wildfire druid, twilight cleric, and true name wizard. Adding up it sounds very Fey.
Unless they're just doing a manual of the planes type thing, that I'd also be very behind.
Manual of the Planes seems fairly likely. Astral plane monk, Feywild Barbarian, who the f knows sorceror limbo or pandamonium, water plane warlock, Celestia Paladin, Mechanus Wizard, Fire plane druid, Shadowfell cleric, Elysium Bard... It kinda checks out.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I said 1d8 + 3 cause you add the Wis mod so i was taking the standard array highest ability score mod as a generalization. It could just be +1 but it also has the potential to be +5
I dont know where you are getting the +WIS idea from. Neither Twilight Sanctuary nor healing spirit add WIS.
I just looked up Healing Spirit. As a second level spell, it restores 1d6 health total, increasing by an additional 1d6 for each level. Looking at Twilight Sanctuary, it grants 1d8 temporary hit points or ends a charm/frighten effect. Just throwin' this out for quick reference.
I said 1d8 + 3 cause you add the Wis mod so i was taking the standard array highest ability score mod as a generalization. It could just be +1 but it also has the potential to be +5
I dont know where you are getting the +WIS idea from. Neither Twilight Sanctuary nor healing spirit add WIS.
Might be referring to what a lot of people think of in terms of healing spirit being used with a single level of Life Cleric to add spell level to the output, and then having it cast from a 3rd level slot to up it even more.
Now I think the biggest difference between it and Twilight Sanctuary is when their effects can go off. Twilight Sanctuary requires whoever wants to gain temp hit points or clear a condition to end their turn inside the sphere. That tends to get parties to bunch up into perfect fireball formation. For healing spirit, you only have to pass through or start your turn in the spell's affected square. That makes it more viable for people to pass through while chasing a creature down.
Honestly my first instinct when reading this was that the wizard was the overpowered one, at least at early level. I don’t think it’s too much of an outlier later (although I will echo the side eye of them getting metamagic*) but 1-5 bonus lv 1 spell slots is pretty huge at level 2, even if it’s only for bane/bless. It’s not like those are bad spells. Plus you get 1-5 bonus action save or suck for a round bonus action “spells” even before you add in the truename bit. So maybe not outright OP but a bit front loaded.
*I think the metamagic is restricted enough by the name requirement and being on only 1 person that it’s not a huge deal, but still kind of a red flag. They are more limited in scope than the sorcerer’s metamagic options, but they are on par or better within that scope. Given that metamagic is a big part of the sorcerer’s power budget I’m still wary.
I said 1d8 + 3 cause you add the Wis mod so i was taking the standard array highest ability score mod as a generalization. It could just be +1 but it also has the potential to be +5
as for the teleportation, i kinda dont get, do you get to use it again if you summon a different use of the spirit?? Or is the "cooldown" tied to the player.
I'd guess the cooldown is based on when the druid rests, but I'm just inferring. It could be clearer. ie:
"The wildfire spirit manifests for 1 hour, until it is reduced to 0 hit points, or until you use your Wild Shape again." so, the spirit's duration would always end before it had a chance to take even a short rest. Also, I'd say it's powerful enough that it makes sense as a 1/rest ability.
Actually that brings up another point. Normally wild shape lasts longer as the druid climbs in levels. As written so far, the wildfire spirit is locked at a static 1 hour. I wonder how intentional that is; IE: if that's meant to balance out the relative power of the spirit.
I think the Twilight Domain is the most interesting, the whole idea of bringing light to the darkness is awesome, its also kind of broken, but thats a new topic. The wildfire druid gives meaning to all the firespells the druid already has, i bet you can make a cool multiclasses with light domain cleric and wildfire druid. The wildfire spirit is just straight up awesome, its also kinda good. Not to talk about druids now getting fireball. For the Onomancy wizard, i dont have much to say, its a wizard that used names. I just think theres already enough wizard subclasses, i guess you could argue and say its the same thing with cleric, where i have to agree, i just think the concepts you can make with the twilight cleric is awesome: Ive already been thinking of something cool, and i think a Tiefling Twilight cleric that serves Selûne is awesome, maybe the want to show people theres also light in the dark (infinite darkvision)
I think the Twilight Domain is the most interesting, the whole idea of bringing light to the darkness is awesome, its also kind of broken, but thats a new topic. (...) and i think a Tiefling Twilight cleric that serves Selûne is awesome, maybe the want to show people theres also light in the dark (infinite darkvision)
I REALLY want to play a halfling twilight cleric of Yondalla / Dallah thaun - I think the concept is perfect for this subclass:
Worshipping both sides of the godess, the known "light side" Yondolla, and her secret "dark side" Dallah Thaun. Man... I need a new DND group :)
I'm not sure how I feel about the incredible looseness of a creature's True Name as Crawford talks about it. I guess I liked the idea that a True Name was something that branded your essence/soul upon creation, that a person didn't even know their own true name without research- that otherworldly creatures guarded them jealously because of how great a source of power they were. That they were so difficult to pronounce that you needed a specific skill devoted to pronouncing them. It also kind of relied on older ideas of everything have a name, that names had incredible power- that the world/geography etc. was brought into being by being Named.
Crawford talks about a True Name basically being how Batman calls himself Batman, not Bruce Wayne. Batman would be his True Name. I feel torn on the subject. I feel like if an Onomancer wanted to have power over Batman, they wouldn't use "Batman" as the reagent for the spell. They'd need his essence-name-thing.
I was leaning toward a drow twilight cleric of Eilistraee, and really pushing that angle of bringing light into the (literal) dark places, but there’s so many different ways it can work, thematically. Cleric of Sune, bringing beauty and joy to the downtrodden and abused? Cleric of Amaunator, bringing the light of law and justice our of dark chaos? Besheba, for luck out of misfortune?
Wildfire is workable and could be fun - I’ve always been a fan of truly elemental, rather than just “trees are nice” druids, but the more I sit with it, the more Onomancer feels underdeveloped and in need of heavy revisions.
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Well...the temporary HP doesn't stack. So at best, the allies are merely postponing damage they are sustaining, with a small buffer between them and death.
A repeatable buffer, yes, but one that will only reduce heavy damage by a small margin.
I feel like Onomancy will be very dependant on a cooperative-minded DM, at least for non-combat name finding. “Yes, Graz’zt is widely known and answers to that name, and that’s what’s in all the sources you’ve investigated, but that’s a transliteration from Abyssal into Common, and not their /true/ name. Also, you don’t speak Abyssal, so your pronunciation is wrong”. It’d make me reticent to play one with a new group, because it sets up arguments and rules lawyering.
You’re also SOL with any creatures immune to charm effects, such as many undead, fiends or constructs, making it frustratingly situational (A helmed horror has an alignment, “the ability to reason” and can understand common - does it have a true name, even though it’s immune to charm? What about an animated staff of frost? It’s neutral evil, speaks common and isn’t immune to charm effects - does it think of itself as Stuart the Evil Staff of Frost?)
Either way, I hope they’re added to DndB soon.
But Twilight Sanctuary doesn't heal. The thing that makes healing spirit OP is that it can fully heal the entire party out of battle. I've never heard anyone say healing spirit was broken for what it can do in battle.
Charm and frighten are not so common that DMs can't adapt. And since the cleric gets limited uses of Channel Divinity, the DM could time around those uses or use charm on characters that are out of range (I did suggest reducing the range).
Thats exactly what constitutes it as OP, the fact that the DM needs to always work around that single feature in order to use entire game mechanics. Yes fear effects might not be that common, but charm effects actually are so to say "dm should just "adapt" away from stuff is just Lame
And i dont know what you are reading but Healing Spirit is one of the strongest mid fight team heals until you get access to mass cure wounds. And yes i know that its temp hit points, because i can read, However At Second Level and extra 1d8+3 could easily be nearly doubling a characters HP
It's just 1d8, not 1d8+3. *(for twilight ability; not talking about healing spirit... and, now that I think about it, you were probably referring to healing spirit too... sorry!)
So, I think that part of the (twilight ability) effect is just right. I guess I tend to like stuff like this that gives more longevity at those early, low-hp levels. It's a narrative drag to realize it's 10 a.m. and the party already is so banged up that they need a long rest. Just an opinion (there obviously tons of ways to mitigate this. It's just somewhat more likely to happen at low levels with an ill-timed crit or something). And 1d8 thp will not mean as much by mid-tier.
But, yeah, totally being able to sidestep charm/fear is definitely something DMs will have to make a big adjustment to account for. Seems like it should be advantage or something like that.
re: the druid's fire spirit fiery teleportation:
How are people reading that so far? Does everyone who gets teleported take the AoE damage too? Or just the chumps left behind? I love the mass-misty-step. Almost OP, for my taste, but makes for a very interesting ability. But it gets more complex if you've got to endure that damage to teleport...
*edited to clarify reference to twilight cleric ability
I said 1d8 + 3 cause you add the Wis mod so i was taking the standard array highest ability score mod as a generalization. It could just be +1 but it also has the potential to be +5
as for the teleportation, i kinda dont get, do you get to use it again if you summon a different use of the spirit?? Or is the "cooldown" tied to the player.
I think it'll be feywild based, what with the wild magic barbarian, glam monk, wildfire druid, twilight cleric, and true name wizard. Adding up it sounds very Fey.
Unless they're just doing a manual of the planes type thing, that I'd also be very behind.
Manual of the Planes seems fairly likely. Astral plane monk, Feywild Barbarian, who the f knows sorceror limbo or pandamonium, water plane warlock, Celestia Paladin, Mechanus Wizard, Fire plane druid, Shadowfell cleric, Elysium Bard... It kinda checks out.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I dont know where you are getting the +WIS idea from. Neither Twilight Sanctuary nor healing spirit add WIS.
Far realms sorcerer
I just looked up Healing Spirit. As a second level spell, it restores 1d6 health total, increasing by an additional 1d6 for each level. Looking at Twilight Sanctuary, it grants 1d8 temporary hit points or ends a charm/frighten effect. Just throwin' this out for quick reference.
Might be referring to what a lot of people think of in terms of healing spirit being used with a single level of Life Cleric to add spell level to the output, and then having it cast from a 3rd level slot to up it even more.
Now I think the biggest difference between it and Twilight Sanctuary is when their effects can go off. Twilight Sanctuary requires whoever wants to gain temp hit points or clear a condition to end their turn inside the sphere. That tends to get parties to bunch up into perfect fireball formation. For healing spirit, you only have to pass through or start your turn in the spell's affected square. That makes it more viable for people to pass through while chasing a creature down.
I understand the UA is out in pdf. But does anyone know why it isn't in DnD Beyond Yet?
Honestly my first instinct when reading this was that the wizard was the overpowered one, at least at early level. I don’t think it’s too much of an outlier later (although I will echo the side eye of them getting metamagic*) but 1-5 bonus lv 1 spell slots is pretty huge at level 2, even if it’s only for bane/bless. It’s not like those are bad spells. Plus you get 1-5 bonus action save or suck for a round bonus action “spells” even before you add in the truename bit. So maybe not outright OP but a bit front loaded.
*I think the metamagic is restricted enough by the name requirement and being on only 1 person that it’s not a huge deal, but still kind of a red flag. They are more limited in scope than the sorcerer’s metamagic options, but they are on par or better within that scope. Given that metamagic is a big part of the sorcerer’s power budget I’m still wary.
I'd guess the cooldown is based on when the druid rests, but I'm just inferring. It could be clearer. ie:
"The wildfire spirit manifests for 1 hour, until it is reduced to 0 hit points, or until you use your Wild Shape again." so, the spirit's duration would always end before it had a chance to take even a short rest. Also, I'd say it's powerful enough that it makes sense as a 1/rest ability.
Actually that brings up another point. Normally wild shape lasts longer as the druid climbs in levels. As written so far, the wildfire spirit is locked at a static 1 hour. I wonder how intentional that is; IE: if that's meant to balance out the relative power of the spirit.
It usually takes a few days to a week (rarely longer) depending on how troublesome features are to add.
I think the Twilight Domain is the most interesting, the whole idea of bringing light to the darkness is awesome, its also kind of broken, but thats a new topic. The wildfire druid gives meaning to all the firespells the druid already has, i bet you can make a cool multiclasses with light domain cleric and wildfire druid. The wildfire spirit is just straight up awesome, its also kinda good. Not to talk about druids now getting fireball. For the Onomancy wizard, i dont have much to say, its a wizard that used names. I just think theres already enough wizard subclasses, i guess you could argue and say its the same thing with cleric, where i have to agree, i just think the concepts you can make with the twilight cleric is awesome: Ive already been thinking of something cool, and i think a Tiefling Twilight cleric that serves Selûne is awesome, maybe the want to show people theres also light in the dark (infinite darkvision)
I REALLY want to play a halfling twilight cleric of Yondalla / Dallah thaun - I think the concept is perfect for this subclass:
Worshipping both sides of the godess, the known "light side" Yondolla, and her secret "dark side" Dallah Thaun. Man... I need a new DND group :)
I loved the concept of the 3.5 Truenamer, but it fell short at mid-higher levels because it was skill-roll-based to Name things.
I'm not sure how I feel about the incredible looseness of a creature's True Name as Crawford talks about it. I guess I liked the idea that a True Name was something that branded your essence/soul upon creation, that a person didn't even know their own true name without research- that otherworldly creatures guarded them jealously because of how great a source of power they were. That they were so difficult to pronounce that you needed a specific skill devoted to pronouncing them. It also kind of relied on older ideas of everything have a name, that names had incredible power- that the world/geography etc. was brought into being by being Named.
Crawford talks about a True Name basically being how Batman calls himself Batman, not Bruce Wayne. Batman would be his True Name. I feel torn on the subject. I feel like if an Onomancer wanted to have power over Batman, they wouldn't use "Batman" as the reagent for the spell. They'd need his essence-name-thing.
I was leaning toward a drow twilight cleric of Eilistraee, and really pushing that angle of bringing light into the (literal) dark places, but there’s so many different ways it can work, thematically. Cleric of Sune, bringing beauty and joy to the downtrodden and abused? Cleric of Amaunator, bringing the light of law and justice our of dark chaos? Besheba, for luck out of misfortune?
Wildfire is workable and could be fun - I’ve always been a fan of truly elemental, rather than just “trees are nice” druids, but the more I sit with it, the more Onomancer feels underdeveloped and in need of heavy revisions.