Thank you Cyb3rM1nd for reminding me that this is a UA discussion, I had let my forum nature distract me.
And I hadn't even finished my reviews. Now for the WIZARD!!
Psionic Focus: Reroll 1's on Psychic or Force Damage. Ok, I'm looking at you Magic Missile. Also looking at you, Mind Sliver. Psionic Devotion: Friends - Adv on charisma checks all the time. Mage hand is mostly redundant with the Telekinetic feat. Message for being really sneaky but utterly redundant with the Telepathic feat. The clear winner here is Friends, which makes a risky cantrip a better idea and essentially copies a late game enchanter feature, plus you can take the +1 int feats and get those cantrips anyway!
Thought Form: Avoid things that prevent you casting by not using those things! Nothing short of a Dispel Magic or Anti-magic field is gonna slow you down. The resistance is handy against archers, but not much else. It seems more powerful than it actually is.
Mental Discipline: Level 10 wizard abilities are generally very strong. Let's see. Yup. A level 5 spell and you cast it for free once a day. That qualifies. Empowered Psionics: Oh, and add your Int modifier to your Psychic and Force damage (not the damage rolls) against the target. But if you have an ongoing effect or a cantrip that does Psychic damage, this guy helps out a bit.
Thought Travel: Flight and etherelness is usually a level 14 ability, so this is nothing new, but still. Turning into either the Augury from Skyrim or Doctor Manhattan for 10 minutes is nothing to scoff at.
All in all, it's meh. The skills are good but honestly a little bland. Even the big level 10 ability is great at first glance, but compared to the school redefining things that happen in other subclasses this one is a little lackluster. Now if you removed the Concentration from the level 10 spells when used Once per Day....Now we're talking!
Feats: Telekinetic - +1 int: Personally, I'd rather it be +1 int or Cha. Mage hand cantrip: Nice. Combat use on a bonus action? well hello there! This is a fun one, other than the unfortunately limiting stat choice. Telepathic - +1 int: Again, +1 int or Cha would be appreciated. Skill Proficiency: If you were the face, you'd already have these. Communication: No need for a message spell! that's one cantrip off the list.
The choice to put feats in that directly assist Int, but render Wizard subclass abilities redundant is, to say a word, odd. But when you start looking at the Psychic Warrior or Eldritch Knight who can spare the ASI/Feats they seem quite helpful.
example of idea: Telekinesis discipline: You have learned how to move things with your mind. You know the mage hand cantrip, with the following changes: The hand is invisible, and you can move it as a bonus action. In addition, you can use your Psy Slots to do the following, as if you were casting spells.
There needs to be balance. If you make the use of psionics undetectable, uncounterable as well as allowing it to by passing magic resistances, it becomes broken from the start. This would also start the dreaded power creep as everything going forward would need to be better to compensate.
A point system is just a convoluted slot system where 5 points basically replaces 1 slot and is really unnecessary. Extra math to achieve the same result does not make anything better and is just added complexity for no value.
It would also be near impossible to create a significant number of Psionic abilities the are completely unique to Psionic classes. To even try is a waste of time and effort. As stated previously, telekinesis and the like already exist why reinvent the wheel while one is right in front of you and ready to be put on the wagon.
Wizards should make a Psion class, but following the multiple failed versions of the past is not how they should go about it.
If there had been Sorcery in Dark Sun, then their intrinsic magic would have precluded the whole Defiler/Preserver concept and narrative. Now, if they change the lore in such a way to explain how the intrinsic Spellcasting of the Sorcerers did not preclude the rise of the Defilers then I can accept them in world. However, if they do not address the gaping plot hole by changing the narrative somehow then it would make no sense. I have no problem with them allowing Sorcery just as long as they address the plot hole.
I realize that an entire magic overhaul is out of the question and that asking for one would be ridiculous. I’m just looking for some in-game parallel alternative. That way everyone who likes Spell Levels and Spell Slots gets to keep them, and I would still get to use something a little different too.
Ah, I understand. If I remember correctly, the choice over defiling was about how magic is fueled, but not necessarily its source, right? In that case sorcerer's would be easy to port. They're just casters who have the inborn ability to use magic, but still face the choice about how to fuel their spells. If it were up to me, I wouldn't make it any more complicated than that.
My caution about the parallel alternative stands. It needs a really solid mechanical justification rather than a preference about the flavor. I'm all for having people play the game they want to play, but it's costly to impose this on other players who a) want to use psionics and b) don't want to deal with/pay for a duplicative system.
Psionics should not use specific Spells of various levels. If a Psion is telekinetic, the character should not have to wait until they are 9th level so they can cast the 5th level Spell Telekinesis. They should simply have a power similar to that Spell that starts out much weaker when the character is level 1, but then ramps up as they gain more power. Kind of like how Cantrips already scale with Character Level. Or how a Warlock’s leveled spells automatically scale. If every Psionic power worked on that principle combined with the Concentration mechanic then I would be happy. As a way to balance things they wouldn’t need a great variety of powers then.
Well taken. This is actually similar to how psions operated in 4e. Most of their powers were "at-will", but they could be augmented at cost. Maybe we'd both be satisfied with a new set of cantrips that psions can uniquely access and alter with power points as with metamagic, right? And perhaps a recasting of the warlock where the augmentations take the same form as invocations? Ie. we could give psions access to the mage hand cantrip, but give them access to pseudo-invocations that let them use sorcery (psi) points to improve its effects?
My justification is this: many of the disciplines offered by the UA mystic duplicate (or nearly duplicate) the effects of existing spells. Others could be recast as spells without much work. I always though that it would be easier to simply give the mystic these abilities as spells (locked to the mystic class in some cases), but give them unique abilities to alter those spells.
"We haven’t closed the door on a class like mystic/psion. But right now, we’re focused on exploring subclass options. Just as the wizard doesn’t own arcane magic and the cleric doesn’t own divine magic, a potential psionic class doesn’t own psionics." -Jeremy Crawford on Twitter
Just wanted to post this here in case it hasn't been circulated to those who think the Mystic/Psion has been scrapped. Looks like these UAs ARE just giving psionics to other classes and they are still leaving the door open for a class later on. Huzzah!
Well taken. This is actually similar to how psions operated in 4e. Most of their powers were "at-will", but they could be augmented at cost. Maybe we'd both be satisfied with a new set of cantrips that psions can uniquely access and alter with power points as with metamagic, right? And perhaps a recasting of the warlock where the augmentations take the same form as invocations? Ie. we could give psions access to the mage hand cantrip, but give them access to pseudo-invocations that let them use sorcery (psi) points to improve its effects?
My justification is this: many of the disciplines offered by the UA mystic duplicate (or nearly duplicate) the effects of existing spells. Others could be recast as spells without much work. I always though that it would be easier to simply give the mystic these abilities as spells (locked to the mystic class in some cases), but give them unique abilities to alter those spells.
You basically described both what Mike Mearls was working on for the Psion a year ago, and what I had basically been trying to describe in various ways.
"We haven’t closed the door on a class like mystic/psion. But right now, we’re focused on exploring subclass options. Just as the wizard doesn’t own arcane magic and the cleric doesn’t own divine magic, a potential psionic class doesn’t own psionics." -Jeremy Crawford on Twitter
Just wanted to post this here in case it hasn't been circulated to those who think the Mystic/Psion has been scrapped. Looks like these UAs ARE just giving psionics to other classes and they are still leaving the door open for a class later on. Huzzah!
I am opposed to the psionic wizard because it seems a cheap way of handling psionics, I find vancian magic to be a very interesting system and enjoy leveled spell slots.
Psionics should not use specific Spells of various levels. If a Psion is telekinetic, the character should not have to wait until they are 9th level so they can cast the 5th level Spell Telekinesis. They should simply have a power similar to that Spell that starts out much weaker when the character is level 1, but then ramps up as they gain more power. Kind of like how Cantrips already scale with Character Level. Or how a Warlock’s leveled spells automatically scale. If every Psionic power worked on that principle combined with the Concentration mechanic then I would be happy. As a way to balance things they wouldn’t need a great variety of powers then.
I agree.
This is another major reason why I don't want them to make the wizard or sorcerer be the main psionics class. Sure, you want your character to be based on telekinesis, but have to wait until level 9 in order to actually be telekinetic. Sure, you can give them an invisible mage hand, but that won't let you lift people into the air like Eleven from Stranger Things. If you want to be a psionic based wizard, fine, take the mage hand cantrip, have it be invisible by begging your DM, take the unseen servant and thunderwave spell, and at higher levels take other spells that can be flavored this way. But, this isn't psionics, this is a wizard who is interested in a mystical force that psions can use and is pretending to have these abilities, this isn't a master of psionic energy, it is a wizard trying to master those abilities, but that has to wait until level 9 to take a basic psionic ability as a spell, Telekinesis. I don't just want a flavor change, I don't want an overpowered class, I want a remake of this spell, and other spells such as Telepathy, that are granted to be chosen to the Mystic or Psion at low levels, and for them to scale up so they're not broken.
There needs to be balance. If you make the use of psionics undetectable, uncounterable as well as allowing it to by passing magic resistances, it becomes broken from the start. This would also start the dreaded power creep as everything going forward would need to be better to compensate.
I don't want it broken, I want it to work, flavor-wise, and mechanics-wise. Maybe they don't get affected by dispel magic, but incredibly powerful psionic creatures such as the aboleth or elder brain aren't affected as well as other creatures, they have psionic resistance and psychic damage immunities or resistances. Maybe do give them not components and not affected by dispel magic, and so on, but are vulnerable to other traits, and possibly the save DC's for psions are calculated to be much easier to succeed at than spellcasting, this might not work as well, but maybe the DC is 8+your intelligence modifier or your proficiency bonus, which ever is higher. I don't make these up, that's Wizards job. If they say psionics is blocked by antimagic field, sure, I'll do what they say to keep it balanced.
A point system is just a convoluted slot system where 5 points basically replaces 1 slot and is really unnecessary. Extra math to achieve the same result does not make anything better and is just added complexity for no value.
No, it would be better. Spellcasters at high levels can only cast 5th level spells 3 times per day if they only use their 5th level spell slots (with the exception of the Warlock), but I would like the Psion or Mystic at high levels to have psionic points that they can blow all on one "level" of psionic ability, to be like in pop culture when a magic user or psion uses a super powerful spell that completely drains them for the rest of the day. I like it where you have a pool of points, like Ki and Sorcerer points, and they can use a pool of them to do certain different abilities. This would be a valuable resource and would come up with some interesting table consequences where you have to use low level abilities to knock people around, but when you have to do a big ability, but are almost out of psi points, and have to either not use that ability and be creative, or use their hit points, I really liked that Mystics could do that.
It would also be near impossible to create a significant number of Psionic abilities the are completely unique to Psionic classes. To even try is a waste of time and effort. As stated previously, telekinesis and the like already exist why reinvent the wheel while one is right in front of you and ready to be put on the wagon.
I disagree with this. I don't think Wizards would be reinventing the wheel, I think that this would help make a new system to do similar abilities. I don't want Telekinesis to be remade in the Psion class, I want it to be avaliable at super low levels, possibly level 1, but have it function different. At level one you can't lift a huge boulder or an ogre, but possibly enough to move a human a few feet, or pick up a small rock and drop it on someone. The wheel is right in front of them for a wagon, but it isn't Psionics. Psionics is a completely different wagon with a completely different mode of transportation. You can't take a wagon wheel and put it on a train or a car. Psionics is different, though they could take Spellcasting and make Psionics work that way, that isn't how Psionics is supposed to function. Psionics is supposed to be able to read minds, speak telepathically, throw their vision at low levels, much lower than when spellcasters can do it. You shouldn't have a telepath that can't do telepathic bond until level 9. They shouldn't have to forcefully have to cast a spell in order to speak to the mind of their friend, they should just be able to do it. Psions and Wizards are supposed to accomplish different things. Wizards can call down a swarm of meteors to destroy towns, create a teleportation circle on the ground that lasts forever, build a mighty fortress near a river to have as a permanent base. Mystics and Psions are supposed to move things with their brain if they want, speak into a creature's mind, intrude into minds, extract memories, turn into thought, see far away, so on. Sure, wizards can do most of these things, but that isn't the point of a wizard. The point of a wizard is to study books and the universe, find out how all things work, if it is how constructs are made, they should learn how to do that, if it's how to make undead creatures, wizards should be able to do that, if it is to permanently levitate a mountain or create a mythal, wizards should have found a way to do that. This goes for psionic abilities, wizards studied how psions levitate, how they read minds, how they change memories, and created high level ways how to do that, but that isn't what they do, they have to cast a spell to do so, they have to try, call down magic from the Weave to manipulate the energy of their surroundings in order to do that, it isn't easy for them, they have to try.
Mystics and Psions are a different story, they didn't study anything to gain their power, they didn't call their power from a god or extraplanar entity, they connected their mind to their surroundings, found a way to use their minds to move around people as easily as their fingers. This isn't magic, it is psionics. A Psion doesn't need to call on magical power to aid them, they just do it. They think, and there it is. They have to use mind power, push with their brains, create that telekinetic force. I don't want them to take the spells, copy it into the Psion, and say that it is psionics, but is the same thing. I want them to scale different, as soon as you can cast Telekinesis, you can move anything in the limits of the spell, I want a Mystic or Psion to be able to move rocks at lower levels, struggle with large things like Luke from the Empire Strikes Back, or Eleven, or many of the other examples of Telekinesis in Movies/TV Shows/Books. At first level, maybe you can move 50 lbs. without any check, but every extra 25 lbs it's a DC 12+1 for every 50 lbs above your weight limit. I'm a dabbler in the rules, no master. I don't know what would be a good system, but I want telekinesis to be different, you can unlock doors at level 1, but at level 10, you just blow them off their hinges. Something like that. Same for telepathy, talk to anyone within 30 ft. no action required at level 1, only one person at a time, but at level 20 you should be able to talk simultaneously to everyone within 100 ft. of you if you'd like, maybe higher.
...it is the mind manipulating things in the world, seeing things that shouldn't be seen by an ordinary person, moving a boulder through the air without moving your body at all, subconsciously scanning the minds around you. These can be represented by spells, such as clairvoyance, telekinesis, or detect thoughts, but they need to not just be the same thing that we already have. I am tired of the excuse that it is easier this way, or that it works. Just because it works doesn't mean that it can't be better.
Look, I agree with you that in our head-canon psionics is different, but that's not the point. Why spend all the time duplicating these spells like with 3e, where every spell just became "spell x, psionic" with no meaningful difference? It was a total waste of dev effort and gamer money.
I don't want the spells duplicated, I don't know how it was in 3e, I've only played 5e, but I would like some scaled evolution of how telekinesis works at low levels, not that you can't do it at low levels, but that you can do a simple version of it at low levels, and it scales as you get to higher levels. It would be a meaningful difference, you could move a 50 pound rock at level one or something like that by spending some psi points, but it gets better at higher levels. Same with telepathy, clairvoyance, and all other psychic abilities that they choose to make. This is a main reason why I want a new system, you can't do this justice with using spells. Using certain spells to flavor as psionics at lower levels can be an okay way to do this, like mage hand, unseen servant, thunderwave, mind spike, but these aren't how I think psionics should work, it shouldn't be, okay you can do psychic damage two times each day, then you're out, but then you can do force push 4 times, I want a pool of points, maybe 13 at level 3, and you can choose to only do certain abilities all the time, and have talents that you can do all the time, similar but not identical to cantrips, such as basic telepathy, so on. It shouldn't be a system where you run out of certain levels of psionics, you should be able to do any of your abilities at any time until you are all out of all psychic force. It doesn't make sense to be like, 'okay, I can't think hard enough to push him around anymore, but at least I can think hard enough to blast his brain to mush'. It should be that you can give all you got until you are out of all that you have, not that you give all you have of a bit of mind power until you have to do lesser power abilities. This just doesn't make sense to me, not just because the whole mind power in levels, but because you should be able to accomplish what you want at any time as long as you have the power.
And another thing you bring up is to make counterspell not work as well on psionics, I don't think that psionics should be counterspelled at all.
This is not how psionics has traditionally worked. At least as far as 3e, psionics was fully affected by magical dispelling, and subject to spell resistance and vice versa. To remove this constraint would be unbalancing unless you're willing to freely give spells that dispel psionics, which is duplicative, and edit every high-level monster to include "psionic resistance". There is a good discussion on this in the 3.5e Expanded Psionics Handbook, which lists plenty of caveats for the mechanical "psionics is different" approach.
I don't think it makes sense to dispel mind power. If they have to do this for power balance I'll go with it. I want certain creatures to get psionic resistance, such as Mind Flayers, possibly Gith, creature above CR 20. I think if they did certain cut off lines based on CR or hit points, or Intellect, this could work well. Maybe creatures with an Intelligence score of 19 and higher have psionic resistance, so do creatures with psychic damage resistance, something along those lines.
1. A distinction between Spellcasting and Psionics, show that because they are different they work different.
2. Show that Psionics isn't magic, so it can't be counterspelled, dispelled, or affected by Antimagic Fields. You can't use magic to stop someone from thinking.
3. Show truly what Psionics is and how it works, instead of having in official rules many different ways on how psionics work.
4. Make it so you can do different things with Psionics and Magic, with Magic you can open up a portal to a different dimension, Psionics allows you to shrink down to the size of an ant and crawl up Thanos's butt.
5. A new system would give players that aren't interested in Spellcasting a way to feel "mystical" on the battlefield, they can do things similar to what the wizard can do, but fundamentally different. Sure you can both pick up that ogre and hold it in the air, but the wizard is channeling magic through spells and you are only using your mind.
6. Magic has so many restrictions, Psionics should have different restrictions. With magic you have to be able to have a free hand to cast somatic spells, another to access your material components, and you need to be able to speak the verbal components, while still only being able to cast at most a leveled spell and a cantrip in the same round. Psionics should be able to do a talent or discipline without needing to speak, gather items, or move your hands around. There should be other restrictions that balance it out, such as no armor, low hit dice like the wizard, so on, the Wizards of the Coast should determine what these limits should be, but their new Psionics wizard feels like it is half-wizard, half-mystic. I don't think that you should mish-mash these two systems so freely. I am only bothered that it is the wizard replacing these. Psionics needs to be an Intelligence based skill, but thematically a sorcerer works if they make it use Intelligence instead of Charisma. I would be okay with that, not happy, but fine. I want a new system, it needs to work differently, it needs quirks and interesting situations where it is better or worse than spellcasting, but I don't want them to take the Spellcasting system, say that this works, and just go with it. Psionics needs love, and the only way to represent it in the way that it needs is if you make a whole new system for it. I think that official psionic rules are coming out in the near future (probably next year), and I think if they want to do Psionics justice they have to develop a new system.
I'll try and respond to each of these in turn.
1) We're going to keep coming back to this but just because two things are different in flavor does not mean that they can't be represented abstractly in the same way. There must be a good justification for expending dev time and effort that could be spent working on other cool things (Planescape plz).
2) As I mentioned above, you either have to rewrite previous rules, or this would be unbalanced.
3) I don't understand. Is this an argument against all of the current subclasses? Under my preferred solution psionics would only have one fundamental approach, which is to use the current casting system with augmentations specific to a given class or spell, similar to how a sorcerer has its own spell list and the ability to alter spells
4) Historically psions can open up portals (3.5e plane shift, psionic) and wizards can shrink (enlarge/reduce). If you really wanted them to do different things, you could have them both use the same system, but give psions a) a different list of class-locked spells (and restrict them from using gate for instance) and b) different class features that interact with them as with the aberrant mind sorcerer.
5) This is kinda the same argument as above. A wizard picks up an ogre with their magic and a warlock picks up a different ogre with their magic. They are doing completely different things flavorfully. The wizard will intone mystic words from a book and the warlock will be begging their patron. However they are not doing different things mechanically! If we give psions a "psionic power" called "psionic telekinesis" that replicates the exact same effects as the telekinesis spell, what have we accomplished?
6) Historically psions have been subject to the same concentration constraints as other casters, while spell components took different forms ("displays" in 3e). If we take these restrictions away, they can become unbalanced. If it's that important, we could offer psions a different list of spells without components, ie a "psionic fireball" that acts the same as a regular fireball but lacks a material component. It's just easier to include that as a class feature, avoiding duplicative remakes of old spells/powers. That's the beauty of the aberrant mind feature, same spell, different components.
Okay, again a lot to cover, sorry this post is so long:
1. Psionics cannot be represented by Spellcasting, they are fundamentally different. I like that you can do certain levels of spells, Power Word Kill once a day, but Magic Missile essentially limitless. I don't think this should apply to Mystics or Psions. A Psion should be able to repeatedly do the same ability low level over and over again, maybe 30 times a day if they don't want to use higher level abilities, but they also should be able to do an equivalent of 6th level spell possibly up to 5-7 times and use all of their psi points, maybe some hit points as well, I think if they do this it would offer more versatility than say a Cleric, who can do healing word at 1st level only 4 times even at 20th level, but a psionic master should be able to do the equivalent of a 1st level spell at level 20 over and over and over until they're out of mind power. This needs a new system, they probably shouldn't have any "9th level psionic "spells"", there should be a limit so they don't have problems with overpowering them. I feel like this is necessary to do Psions justice and it is a core feature in psionics.
2. You don't have to rewrite rules, you just have to add more rules about how psions have different big limiting factors of the same magnitude of impact to the way psionics work in order to balance this.
3. My point was that I don't want them to shove Psionics into the Wizard and call it good. I am fine with a psionics based wizard arcane tradition, this is good to show how wizards can master all arts and make spells to replicate different abilities. I like the new spells, but I don't want them to publish this wizard and never do a Psion class. I want a different psionic system, I don't want it to be all Spellcasting based.
4. Okay, I didn't know that Psions could open up portals, I'll have to look that up, but I don't think that it should be how a Wizard can make a gate spell to a different plane and I think the way for a Psion to go to a different plane is through the Astral Plane. Wizards can do enlarge/reduce, but they can only change size by one degree, they can't turn a bunny Gargantuan, or the Tarrasque tiny. I don't want necessarily these examples to be possible, just maybe turn the Human Mystic tiny or huge.
5. Again, as I've said many times, I don't want a copy/paste of Telepathy and Telekinesis, and the other psychic based spells into the new class if they make one, I want the ability to lift different weights at different levels, telepathy to a certain range at certain levels. It needs to be different enough to be a warranted change, but close enough to accomplish essentially the same thing in certain circumstances. A level 9 Mystic and a Level 9 Wizard should both be able to lift an ogre in the air, one should be able to do it better or more effectively. One of them had to study a spell to do that, the other has been able to do things similar to this from level one, but recently got good enough to lift an ogre. Warlocks don't get Telekinesis, by the way, but that isn't my main point. If a Warlock and Wizard was to cast Telekinesis, they would be doing so with different systems, Pact Magic is fundamentally different from Spellcasting, so it has a different system. This supports my argument that Psionics is different enough to deserve its own system.
6. I love the aberrant mind sorcerer, I want it in the game, but I don't want its mechanics for everything psionic. If you take away components from the spells, they are still spells, but actually cannot be counterspelled, in order to counterspell a spell you have to have some indication of it being cast. But, even though it can't be counterspelled doesn't mean it isn't a spell, all the psionic spells the aberrant mind sorcerer has are still spells and subject to dispel magic and antimagic field. I don't want this to be possible. I want un-counterspellable, no components, not subject to magic resistance and antimagic field psionic abilities that still have constrictions just as big as the magic system. Psionics are different from Spellcasting, I don't just want reflavored spells and spell effects, I want essentially and mechanically different abilities possibly similar to certain spells, but that work different, are made happen different, and affect the world of D&D differently than those spells that mimic these abilities.
TBH, I think they should make short rest caster class based on the Monk and Warlock. Psi-points for spells the way monks uses ki points for spells (giving the same amount of ki points the monk get to psion + something similar to mystic arcanum of the warlock. However, Psion definitely should use spells for the most part and not "spell but not really spells".
P.S. Psionics isn't magic. This is straight from Wikipedia, "Psionics are a form of supernatural power similar to, but distinct from, arcane and divine magic."
That is not about 5e tho...
I assume that Wizards of the Coast will continue to make Psionics not be magical if they do a Mystic class. I would like for the Updated Mystic or Psion class would continue not to use magic. I don't think Mystics should get psi points back on a short rest, I think if they want to make a Psion as powerful as Sorcerer or Wizard they'll have to make it be long rests that they regain Psi points.
Again, my main point is that Spellcasting is different from Psionics, and that Psionics should have different quirks, the ability to use certain "level" psi abilities more times than a Wizard would be able to for their level of spell slots, almost like sorcery points, but better, and at the core of the class. I want a whole new class and psionic system, even though it is pretty much confirmed by Jeremy Crawford that we won't be getting this in 5e, this is just my image of how it should be.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I am opposed to the psionic wizard because it seems a cheap way of handling psionics, I find vancian magic to be a very interesting system and enjoy leveled spell slots.
I agree with your first statement. As to the second statement, with all of the changes since 2e I will admit that spell slots suck less now. Before there were no Cantrips, there was no upcasting, and you had to prepare each spell slot individually. 5e is way better.
I assume that Wizards of the Coast will continue to make Psionics not be magical if they do a Mystic class.
They already said on twitter that Psionics are a type of magic like arcane and divine and there are Psionic spells. All that while saying that a Psionic class has not been given up yet. So I guess it is just not going to get called "mystic" probably.
Sure, you want your character to be based on telekinesis, but have to wait until level 9 in order to actually be telekinetic. Sure, you can give them an invisible mage hand, but that won't let you lift people into the air like Eleven from Stranger Things.
2nd level Levitation spell: "Am I a joke to you?" 3rd level Fly spell: "What about me, am I also a joke?"
There are multiple telekinesis based spells that are lower level.
Telekinesis: moving objects remotely. Psychokinesis: moving objects by using only the mind.
Telekinesis is a type of Psychokinesis.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Okay, i agree with 95% of that except for 1 thing. Let Psionics be “magic” as long as it’s not “Spellcasting” Antimagic Field and Dispel Magic should work against Psionics for balance purposes, but Counterspell should not because Psions don’t “Cast Spells”
Sure, you want your character to be based on telekinesis, but have to wait until level 9 in order to actually be telekinetic. Sure, you can give them an invisible mage hand, but that won't let you lift people into the air like Eleven from Stranger Things.
2nd level Levitation spell: "Am I a joke to you?" 3rd level Fly spell: "What about me, am I also a joke?"
There are multiple telekinesis based spells that are lower level.
Telekinesis: moving objects remotely. Psychokinesis: moving objects by using only the mind.
Telekinesis is a type of Psychokinesis.
Yes, but not all Psychokinesis is Telekinesis. Levitation and Flying may in fact be Psychokinetic powers, but they are not Telekinetic since “Tele” means remotely while the character’s own body is as far from “remote” as can be.
All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.
The OG Psionicist had 6 Disciplines to which they could subscribe: (like subclasses)
Psychokineses (moving things with the mind)
Psychoportation (manipulation of time and space [teleportation for instance])
Clairsentience (ESP, Remote Viewing)
Telepathy (mind to mind)
Psychometabolism (changing the body)
Metapsionics (manipulating Psionics) Iwould make Metapsionics available to all and replace it with:
*Potentience (manipulation of energy)
Under each Discipline there were a number of major powers called Sciences (like spells) and minor powers called Devotions (like Eldridge Invocations)
Under the Discipline of Psychokinesis the Sciences would have been stuff like:
Telekinesis (moving things with the mind remotely)
Tactilekinesis (affecting things you can touch like Spider Climb)
Levitation
While both Levitation and Telekinesis would fall under the Discipline of “Psychokinesis” they would not fall under the same Science and would have to be studied individually for game balance purposes.
No, levitate can not be “Tele”kinesics. It IS Psychokineses, but it is not “remote”
Per the spell description: "One creature or loose object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically..."
But since Psionics are not “Spells” that spell description is totally and completely irrelevant.
Cyb3rM1nd, whom you were responding to when you originally made the claim that you can't levitate something from afar, was explicitly talking about the Levitate spell. Come on, buddy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Thank you Cyb3rM1nd for reminding me that this is a UA discussion, I had let my forum nature distract me.
And I hadn't even finished my reviews. Now for the WIZARD!!
Psionic Focus: Reroll 1's on Psychic or Force Damage. Ok, I'm looking at you Magic Missile. Also looking at you, Mind Sliver.
Psionic Devotion: Friends - Adv on charisma checks all the time. Mage hand is mostly redundant with the Telekinetic feat. Message for being really sneaky but utterly redundant with the Telepathic feat. The clear winner here is Friends, which makes a risky cantrip a better idea and essentially copies a late game enchanter feature, plus you can take the +1 int feats and get those cantrips anyway!
Thought Form: Avoid things that prevent you casting by not using those things! Nothing short of a Dispel Magic or Anti-magic field is gonna slow you down. The resistance is handy against archers, but not much else. It seems more powerful than it actually is.
Mental Discipline: Level 10 wizard abilities are generally very strong. Let's see. Yup. A level 5 spell and you cast it for free once a day. That qualifies.
Empowered Psionics: Oh, and add your Int modifier to your Psychic and Force damage (not the damage rolls) against the target. But if you have an ongoing effect or a cantrip that does Psychic damage, this guy helps out a bit.
Thought Travel: Flight and etherelness is usually a level 14 ability, so this is nothing new, but still. Turning into either the Augury from Skyrim or Doctor Manhattan for 10 minutes is nothing to scoff at.
All in all, it's meh. The skills are good but honestly a little bland. Even the big level 10 ability is great at first glance, but compared to the school redefining things that happen in other subclasses this one is a little lackluster. Now if you removed the Concentration from the level 10 spells when used Once per Day....Now we're talking!
Feats:
Telekinetic - +1 int: Personally, I'd rather it be +1 int or Cha. Mage hand cantrip: Nice. Combat use on a bonus action? well hello there! This is a fun one, other than the unfortunately limiting stat choice.
Telepathic - +1 int: Again, +1 int or Cha would be appreciated. Skill Proficiency: If you were the face, you'd already have these. Communication: No need for a message spell! that's one cantrip off the list.
The choice to put feats in that directly assist Int, but render Wizard subclass abilities redundant is, to say a word, odd. But when you start looking at the Psychic Warrior or Eldritch Knight who can spare the ASI/Feats they seem quite helpful.
My other reviews: Spell Review , Fighter and rogue review
example of idea:
Telekinesis discipline:
You have learned how to move things with your mind. You know the mage hand cantrip, with the following changes: The hand is invisible, and you can move it as a bonus action. In addition, you can use your Psy Slots to do the following, as if you were casting spells.
1st level: Catapult
3rd level: Levitate
5th level: Fly
7th level: Fabricate
9th level: Telekinesis
11th level: Disintegrate
13th level: Reverse Gravity
15th level: Demiplane
Said much more concisely than I could.
Ah, I understand. If I remember correctly, the choice over defiling was about how magic is fueled, but not necessarily its source, right? In that case sorcerer's would be easy to port. They're just casters who have the inborn ability to use magic, but still face the choice about how to fuel their spells. If it were up to me, I wouldn't make it any more complicated than that.
My caution about the parallel alternative stands. It needs a really solid mechanical justification rather than a preference about the flavor. I'm all for having people play the game they want to play, but it's costly to impose this on other players who a) want to use psionics and b) don't want to deal with/pay for a duplicative system.
Well taken. This is actually similar to how psions operated in 4e. Most of their powers were "at-will", but they could be augmented at cost. Maybe we'd both be satisfied with a new set of cantrips that psions can uniquely access and alter with power points as with metamagic, right? And perhaps a recasting of the warlock where the augmentations take the same form as invocations? Ie. we could give psions access to the mage hand cantrip, but give them access to pseudo-invocations that let them use sorcery (psi) points to improve its effects?
My justification is this: many of the disciplines offered by the UA mystic duplicate (or nearly duplicate) the effects of existing spells. Others could be recast as spells without much work. I always though that it would be easier to simply give the mystic these abilities as spells (locked to the mystic class in some cases), but give them unique abilities to alter those spells.
Just wanted to post this here in case it hasn't been circulated to those who think the Mystic/Psion has been scrapped. Looks like these UAs ARE just giving psionics to other classes and they are still leaving the door open for a class later on. Huzzah!
You basically described both what Mike Mearls was working on for the Psion a year ago, and what I had basically been trying to describe in various ways.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
And I am discussing the new UA, I’m discussing how/why I am fundamentally opposed the the Psionic Wizard.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I hope you’re right
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I am opposed to the psionic wizard because it seems a cheap way of handling psionics, I find vancian magic to be a very interesting system and enjoy leveled spell slots.
I agree.
This is another major reason why I don't want them to make the wizard or sorcerer be the main psionics class. Sure, you want your character to be based on telekinesis, but have to wait until level 9 in order to actually be telekinetic. Sure, you can give them an invisible mage hand, but that won't let you lift people into the air like Eleven from Stranger Things. If you want to be a psionic based wizard, fine, take the mage hand cantrip, have it be invisible by begging your DM, take the unseen servant and thunderwave spell, and at higher levels take other spells that can be flavored this way. But, this isn't psionics, this is a wizard who is interested in a mystical force that psions can use and is pretending to have these abilities, this isn't a master of psionic energy, it is a wizard trying to master those abilities, but that has to wait until level 9 to take a basic psionic ability as a spell, Telekinesis. I don't just want a flavor change, I don't want an overpowered class, I want a remake of this spell, and other spells such as Telepathy, that are granted to be chosen to the Mystic or Psion at low levels, and for them to scale up so they're not broken.
I don't want it broken, I want it to work, flavor-wise, and mechanics-wise. Maybe they don't get affected by dispel magic, but incredibly powerful psionic creatures such as the aboleth or elder brain aren't affected as well as other creatures, they have psionic resistance and psychic damage immunities or resistances. Maybe do give them not components and not affected by dispel magic, and so on, but are vulnerable to other traits, and possibly the save DC's for psions are calculated to be much easier to succeed at than spellcasting, this might not work as well, but maybe the DC is 8+your intelligence modifier or your proficiency bonus, which ever is higher. I don't make these up, that's Wizards job. If they say psionics is blocked by antimagic field, sure, I'll do what they say to keep it balanced.
No, it would be better. Spellcasters at high levels can only cast 5th level spells 3 times per day if they only use their 5th level spell slots (with the exception of the Warlock), but I would like the Psion or Mystic at high levels to have psionic points that they can blow all on one "level" of psionic ability, to be like in pop culture when a magic user or psion uses a super powerful spell that completely drains them for the rest of the day. I like it where you have a pool of points, like Ki and Sorcerer points, and they can use a pool of them to do certain different abilities. This would be a valuable resource and would come up with some interesting table consequences where you have to use low level abilities to knock people around, but when you have to do a big ability, but are almost out of psi points, and have to either not use that ability and be creative, or use their hit points, I really liked that Mystics could do that.
I disagree with this. I don't think Wizards would be reinventing the wheel, I think that this would help make a new system to do similar abilities. I don't want Telekinesis to be remade in the Psion class, I want it to be avaliable at super low levels, possibly level 1, but have it function different. At level one you can't lift a huge boulder or an ogre, but possibly enough to move a human a few feet, or pick up a small rock and drop it on someone. The wheel is right in front of them for a wagon, but it isn't Psionics. Psionics is a completely different wagon with a completely different mode of transportation. You can't take a wagon wheel and put it on a train or a car. Psionics is different, though they could take Spellcasting and make Psionics work that way, that isn't how Psionics is supposed to function. Psionics is supposed to be able to read minds, speak telepathically, throw their vision at low levels, much lower than when spellcasters can do it. You shouldn't have a telepath that can't do telepathic bond until level 9. They shouldn't have to forcefully have to cast a spell in order to speak to the mind of their friend, they should just be able to do it. Psions and Wizards are supposed to accomplish different things. Wizards can call down a swarm of meteors to destroy towns, create a teleportation circle on the ground that lasts forever, build a mighty fortress near a river to have as a permanent base. Mystics and Psions are supposed to move things with their brain if they want, speak into a creature's mind, intrude into minds, extract memories, turn into thought, see far away, so on. Sure, wizards can do most of these things, but that isn't the point of a wizard. The point of a wizard is to study books and the universe, find out how all things work, if it is how constructs are made, they should learn how to do that, if it's how to make undead creatures, wizards should be able to do that, if it is to permanently levitate a mountain or create a mythal, wizards should have found a way to do that. This goes for psionic abilities, wizards studied how psions levitate, how they read minds, how they change memories, and created high level ways how to do that, but that isn't what they do, they have to cast a spell to do so, they have to try, call down magic from the Weave to manipulate the energy of their surroundings in order to do that, it isn't easy for them, they have to try.
Mystics and Psions are a different story, they didn't study anything to gain their power, they didn't call their power from a god or extraplanar entity, they connected their mind to their surroundings, found a way to use their minds to move around people as easily as their fingers. This isn't magic, it is psionics. A Psion doesn't need to call on magical power to aid them, they just do it. They think, and there it is. They have to use mind power, push with their brains, create that telekinetic force. I don't want them to take the spells, copy it into the Psion, and say that it is psionics, but is the same thing. I want them to scale different, as soon as you can cast Telekinesis, you can move anything in the limits of the spell, I want a Mystic or Psion to be able to move rocks at lower levels, struggle with large things like Luke from the Empire Strikes Back, or Eleven, or many of the other examples of Telekinesis in Movies/TV Shows/Books. At first level, maybe you can move 50 lbs. without any check, but every extra 25 lbs it's a DC 12+1 for every 50 lbs above your weight limit. I'm a dabbler in the rules, no master. I don't know what would be a good system, but I want telekinesis to be different, you can unlock doors at level 1, but at level 10, you just blow them off their hinges. Something like that. Same for telepathy, talk to anyone within 30 ft. no action required at level 1, only one person at a time, but at level 20 you should be able to talk simultaneously to everyone within 100 ft. of you if you'd like, maybe higher.
I don't want the spells duplicated, I don't know how it was in 3e, I've only played 5e, but I would like some scaled evolution of how telekinesis works at low levels, not that you can't do it at low levels, but that you can do a simple version of it at low levels, and it scales as you get to higher levels. It would be a meaningful difference, you could move a 50 pound rock at level one or something like that by spending some psi points, but it gets better at higher levels. Same with telepathy, clairvoyance, and all other psychic abilities that they choose to make. This is a main reason why I want a new system, you can't do this justice with using spells. Using certain spells to flavor as psionics at lower levels can be an okay way to do this, like mage hand, unseen servant, thunderwave, mind spike, but these aren't how I think psionics should work, it shouldn't be, okay you can do psychic damage two times each day, then you're out, but then you can do force push 4 times, I want a pool of points, maybe 13 at level 3, and you can choose to only do certain abilities all the time, and have talents that you can do all the time, similar but not identical to cantrips, such as basic telepathy, so on. It shouldn't be a system where you run out of certain levels of psionics, you should be able to do any of your abilities at any time until you are all out of all psychic force. It doesn't make sense to be like, 'okay, I can't think hard enough to push him around anymore, but at least I can think hard enough to blast his brain to mush'. It should be that you can give all you got until you are out of all that you have, not that you give all you have of a bit of mind power until you have to do lesser power abilities. This just doesn't make sense to me, not just because the whole mind power in levels, but because you should be able to accomplish what you want at any time as long as you have the power.
I don't think it makes sense to dispel mind power. If they have to do this for power balance I'll go with it. I want certain creatures to get psionic resistance, such as Mind Flayers, possibly Gith, creature above CR 20. I think if they did certain cut off lines based on CR or hit points, or Intellect, this could work well. Maybe creatures with an Intelligence score of 19 and higher have psionic resistance, so do creatures with psychic damage resistance, something along those lines.
Okay, again a lot to cover, sorry this post is so long:
1. Psionics cannot be represented by Spellcasting, they are fundamentally different. I like that you can do certain levels of spells, Power Word Kill once a day, but Magic Missile essentially limitless. I don't think this should apply to Mystics or Psions. A Psion should be able to repeatedly do the same ability low level over and over again, maybe 30 times a day if they don't want to use higher level abilities, but they also should be able to do an equivalent of 6th level spell possibly up to 5-7 times and use all of their psi points, maybe some hit points as well, I think if they do this it would offer more versatility than say a Cleric, who can do healing word at 1st level only 4 times even at 20th level, but a psionic master should be able to do the equivalent of a 1st level spell at level 20 over and over and over until they're out of mind power. This needs a new system, they probably shouldn't have any "9th level psionic "spells"", there should be a limit so they don't have problems with overpowering them. I feel like this is necessary to do Psions justice and it is a core feature in psionics.
2. You don't have to rewrite rules, you just have to add more rules about how psions have different big limiting factors of the same magnitude of impact to the way psionics work in order to balance this.
3. My point was that I don't want them to shove Psionics into the Wizard and call it good. I am fine with a psionics based wizard arcane tradition, this is good to show how wizards can master all arts and make spells to replicate different abilities. I like the new spells, but I don't want them to publish this wizard and never do a Psion class. I want a different psionic system, I don't want it to be all Spellcasting based.
4. Okay, I didn't know that Psions could open up portals, I'll have to look that up, but I don't think that it should be how a Wizard can make a gate spell to a different plane and I think the way for a Psion to go to a different plane is through the Astral Plane. Wizards can do enlarge/reduce, but they can only change size by one degree, they can't turn a bunny Gargantuan, or the Tarrasque tiny. I don't want necessarily these examples to be possible, just maybe turn the Human Mystic tiny or huge.
5. Again, as I've said many times, I don't want a copy/paste of Telepathy and Telekinesis, and the other psychic based spells into the new class if they make one, I want the ability to lift different weights at different levels, telepathy to a certain range at certain levels. It needs to be different enough to be a warranted change, but close enough to accomplish essentially the same thing in certain circumstances. A level 9 Mystic and a Level 9 Wizard should both be able to lift an ogre in the air, one should be able to do it better or more effectively. One of them had to study a spell to do that, the other has been able to do things similar to this from level one, but recently got good enough to lift an ogre. Warlocks don't get Telekinesis, by the way, but that isn't my main point. If a Warlock and Wizard was to cast Telekinesis, they would be doing so with different systems, Pact Magic is fundamentally different from Spellcasting, so it has a different system. This supports my argument that Psionics is different enough to deserve its own system.
6. I love the aberrant mind sorcerer, I want it in the game, but I don't want its mechanics for everything psionic. If you take away components from the spells, they are still spells, but actually cannot be counterspelled, in order to counterspell a spell you have to have some indication of it being cast. But, even though it can't be counterspelled doesn't mean it isn't a spell, all the psionic spells the aberrant mind sorcerer has are still spells and subject to dispel magic and antimagic field. I don't want this to be possible. I want un-counterspellable, no components, not subject to magic resistance and antimagic field psionic abilities that still have constrictions just as big as the magic system. Psionics are different from Spellcasting, I don't just want reflavored spells and spell effects, I want essentially and mechanically different abilities possibly similar to certain spells, but that work different, are made happen different, and affect the world of D&D differently than those spells that mimic these abilities.
I assume that Wizards of the Coast will continue to make Psionics not be magical if they do a Mystic class. I would like for the Updated Mystic or Psion class would continue not to use magic. I don't think Mystics should get psi points back on a short rest, I think if they want to make a Psion as powerful as Sorcerer or Wizard they'll have to make it be long rests that they regain Psi points.
Again, my main point is that Spellcasting is different from Psionics, and that Psionics should have different quirks, the ability to use certain "level" psi abilities more times than a Wizard would be able to for their level of spell slots, almost like sorcery points, but better, and at the core of the class. I want a whole new class and psionic system, even though it is pretty much confirmed by Jeremy Crawford that we won't be getting this in 5e, this is just my image of how it should be.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I agree with your first statement. As to the second statement, with all of the changes since 2e I will admit that spell slots suck less now. Before there were no Cantrips, there was no upcasting, and you had to prepare each spell slot individually. 5e is way better.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
They already said on twitter that Psionics are a type of magic like arcane and divine and there are Psionic spells. All that while saying that a Psionic class has not been given up yet. So I guess it is just not going to get called "mystic" probably.
2nd level Levitation spell: "Am I a joke to you?"
3rd level Fly spell: "What about me, am I also a joke?"
There are multiple telekinesis based spells that are lower level.
Telekinesis: moving objects remotely.
Psychokinesis: moving objects by using only the mind.
Telekinesis is a type of Psychokinesis.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
LeviRocks,
wow
Okay, i agree with 95% of that except for 1 thing. Let Psionics be “magic” as long as it’s not “Spellcasting” Antimagic Field and Dispel Magic should work against Psionics for balance purposes, but Counterspell should not because Psions don’t “Cast Spells”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Yes, but not all Psychokinesis is Telekinesis. Levitation and Flying may in fact be Psychokinetic powers, but they are not Telekinetic since “Tele” means remotely while the character’s own body is as far from “remote” as can be.
All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Levitate could easily be telekinises
No, levitate can not be “Tele”kinesics. It IS Psychokineses, but it is not “remote”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The OG Psionicist had 6 Disciplines to which they could subscribe: (like subclasses)
Under each Discipline there were a number of major powers called Sciences (like spells) and minor powers called Devotions (like Eldridge Invocations)
Under the Discipline of Psychokinesis the Sciences would have been stuff like:
While both Levitation and Telekinesis would fall under the Discipline of “Psychokinesis” they would not fall under the same Science and would have to be studied individually for game balance purposes.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Per the spell description: "One creature or loose object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically..."
But since Psionics are not “Spells” that spell description is totally and completely irrelevant.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Cyb3rM1nd, whom you were responding to when you originally made the claim that you can't levitate something from afar, was explicitly talking about the Levitate spell. Come on, buddy.