I have absolutely no problem with Psionic Subclasses for the existing Classes whatsoever. I don't even have a problem with the concept of PsiSubs for the Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock as long as they don't exist in Dark Sun without a very good explanation for it in the lore.
Dark Sun never had sorcerers and warlocks to start with! But if you don't want them in your game, you don't need 'em. On the other hand, a warlock tied to a sorcerer-king seems very appropriate. I think Bruce Cordell would be okay with other Warlocks in Dark Sun, given how much he contributed to cosmic horror in D&D.
I am disappointed that it seems like there will not be any Classes in 5e that offer a specific and direct alternative to the exact same mechanic that every other caster in the game uses.
This is kinda what I'm getting at. Why do we need a different mechanic for magic v psionics instead of different flavor? We might as well ask for a different mechanic for arcane and divine magic. I just don't know what it gets us except for an unnecessary complication. Psi points never really bought us anything up and above what spell slots offer. Maybe a sorcery point system would work as a supplement for psions, but why fix spell slots if they aint broke
1) I know that Sorcerer and Warlock never existed in Dark Sun, that's why I am insisting that if they suddenly throw these Classes in that they had best write some Goddamned good Lore for the sudden change or I will be upset.
2) One of the only things that has always bugged the $h17 out of me for over 30 years is the stupid Vancian Spell Slot system, I have always hated it. I have considered it "broke" since the very beginning. I have learned to accept them, I have not so quietly endured their existence, they have even started to grow on me a little since they are now nowhere near as bad as the old days (gorram "Prepared Spell Slots" razumfrazum) at least now they're not as restrictive. But I still don't like them, "Spell Levels" and "Spell Slots" have been counterintuitive since the very beginning. Sorcerers using Spell Points is strictly optional and I can have absolutely no expectation that any DM will let me play a Sorcerer that way at their table. The Warlock is wonderfully different, but that's about it. I was looking for another option besides Warlock.
I would like for them to drop the Psion Wizard (Wizard is already good as is) and keep the Fighter and Rogue subclasses and introduce a Psion/Mystic. Mix and match the Sorcerer and Warlocks for class mechanics and you would be pretty good. Psi points to function like meta magic and add in a few Talents ala Invocations and you got a great base to work with that everyone is familiar with.
It's interesting that you should mention that. I've actually been working on something like that to replace the Mystic for one of my players. Except Talents would be closer to Cantrips, and Devotions would be like the Eldritch Invocations.
The 3.5 psion was a poorly balanced wizard with spell points. The powers were just spells with a different flavor. While I have issues with the subclass being available at any level other than 1 the concept works mechanically.
Glueing another magic system onto one that was already so big always seemed silly. There is one character in the party with this strange source of power. To make puzzles and challenges there has to be a big bad with the tools to combat it. Now you are customizing the campaign to one person.
And who wants to spend 30 to 60 bucks on a splat that never gets used?
Why would any DM need to customize like that. Simply by saying “Psionics is ‘Magic’ even though Psionicist don’t ‘Cast Spells’” means that anything the DM would prepare against a Psion the same way they would prepare against anything else. After all, the BB has no idea:
Is anyone even coming?
What type(s) of intruder(s) is/are on their way?
Are the any Magic Users at all?
How many are Full Caster/Full Caster equivalents?
How many of them are Arcane or Divine?
What specializations need to be accounted for?
An Arcane Trickster, a Hexblade, an Illusionist, and a Circle of the Forest Druid will each have different strengths and weaknesses and different ways for overcoming obstacles. Does the BB have any foreknowledge of any of that? No. Does the BB actually manifest itself and write all that stuff down so the DM doesn’t have to? No. The DM always has to customize/curate the experience to tailor suit their party. Unique activation methods aside, Magic is still Magic. Psionicists would be no different, simply knowing that the character has psicokinetic properties is enough for the DM to go:
”That character can move shit with their mind. Let me put some stuff in this dungeon for that character to do, but let me make sure there’s different stuff that character sucks at for everyone else to do too.”
I have absolutely no problem with Psionic Subclasses for the existing Classes whatsoever. I don't even have a problem with the concept of PsiSubs for the Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock as long as they don't exist in Dark Sun without a very good explanation for it in the lore.
Dark Sun never had sorcerers and warlocks to start with! But if you don't want them in your game, you don't need 'em. On the other hand, a warlock tied to a sorcerer-king seems very appropriate. I think Bruce Cordell would be okay with other Warlocks in Dark Sun, given how much he contributed to cosmic horror in D&D.
I am disappointed that it seems like there will not be any Classes in 5e that offer a specific and direct alternative to the exact same mechanic that every other caster in the game uses.
This is kinda what I'm getting at. Why do we need a different mechanic for magic v psionics instead of different flavor? We might as well ask for a different mechanic for arcane and divine magic. I just don't know what it gets us except for an unnecessary complication. Psi points never really bought us anything up and above what spell slots offer. Maybe a sorcery point system would work as a supplement for psions, but why fix spell slots if they aint broke
1) I know that Sorcerer and Warlock never existed in Dark Sun, that's why I am insisting that if they suddenly throw these Classes in that they had best write some Goddamned good Lore for the sudden change or I will be upset.
2) One of the only things that has always bugged the $h17 out of me for over 30 years is the stupid Vancian Spell Slot system, I have always hated it. I have considered it "broke" since the very beginning. I have learned to accept them, I have not so quietly endured their existence, they have even started to grow on me a little since they are now nowhere near as bad as the old days (gorram "Prepared Spell Slots" razumfrazum) at least now they're not as restrictive. But I still don't like them, "Spell Levels" and "Spell Slots" have been counterintuitive since the very beginning. Sorcerers using Spell Points is strictly optional and I can have absolutely no expectation that any DM will let me play a Sorcerer that way at their table. The Warlock is wonderfully different, but that's about it. I was looking for another option besides Warlock.
As much as I love how spellcasting works in 5th edition, I would love a new system for how psionics works. If their only excuse is that they don't want to develop a whole new system, then I totally think that they should make a new system to show us that they can deliver something that we want and have it feel new. And as for the excuse that they just want to re-flavor things to make it feel more at home, I wouldn't be too mad, I do like how the artificer has "spells" that are actually just mechanical inventions that they throw together in a few seconds, but I think that's a little different than psionics. Artificers are magical, they make magic items, they create magic potions that can heal, and warp creatures, they can create magical cannons that blast people with force and can shoot fire, they make a steel defender that literally uses force damage, which is mainly used for magic. Artificers are psuedo-magic users, they use magic, but not in away that reveals that they are magic users.
Now, psionics is a completely different story. Psionic and psychic power isn't magic at all. It is using your mind power to move things, read thoughts, crush brains, stuff like that. Though some of these abilities are similar to the Telekinesis, Detect Thoughts, and Power Word Kill spells, they aren't and shouldn't be the same. There needs to be some distinction between them. Are you using magic to crush their minds, or mind-power. Are you using your soul and heart to call upon magical forces that you have inherited or gotten from an extraplanar entity, or have you had to study the art of connecting to your psychic energy, spent years forming this link between yourself and your mind. I want these to be fundamentally different, because if they aren't, it's essentially saying psionics isn't special enough to be as unique as the warlock, sorcerer, or wizard.
I am completely fine with having some psychic based subclasses, I love the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, I love the theme of the Soul Knife, I like the Psychic Warrior Fighter, but I don't think that they should make psionics just be a part of magic, because that isn't fun enough. I like how wizards in order to get basic psychic abilities such as telekinesis they have to be at least level 9, I like how psychic powers are just to different that the magic versions of those spells have to be very high level to replicate these psionic powers.
I would love to see a fixed version of the Mystic, maybe not just one class, but one class for each type of Mystic, there is enough material to cover those areas, but I don't want them to just take a system that works and only use that, you can develop a new system. As for the argument that no one would use that system, I ask the question, was that system ever good? If you make a new system that actually works, and play test it a bunch, and do a bunch of interviews talking about how great this new system is, I think people would play it. They made a new class and published it in the last month, and a l lot of people are playing Artificer, because it is new, and awesome. They need to take a leap of faith, and then it will work out. I don't want them to play it safe, I want them to take a risk, develop a new system, and publish it, and I can guarantee that people will play it.
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Psionic and psychic power isn't magic at all. [...]
Accord to Crawford's twitter in 5e it is. (He said that the difference between arcane and psionic is the same difference between arcane and divine magic)
Also, there is already a precedent of psionics just being treated as magic in 5e see Mind Flayer Psion
Psionic and psychic power isn't magic at all. [...]
Accord to Crawford's twitter in 5e it is. (He said that the difference between arcane and psionic is the same difference between arcane and divine magic)
Also, there is already a precedent of psionics just being treated as magic in 5e see Mind Flayer Psion
That's something that's going to be very setting dependent. In Eberron, there is no difference between arcane and divine magic. In Dark Sun, there's a HUGE difference between magic and psionics. It's fine for the game to have default assumptions, but it's not fine to use those default assumptions to try and dictate universal truths.
In Dark Sun there is also difference between Divine and Arcane magic. So there is no necessity to make Psionic non-magic just to differentiate from Arcane magic.
And regardless of Psionics for a Dark Sun setting, you will need variant rules anyway.
Psionic and psychic power isn't magic at all. [...]
Accord to Crawford's twitter in 5e it is. (He said that the difference between arcane and psionic is the same difference between arcane and divine magic)
Also, there is already a precedent of psionics just being treated as magic in 5e see Mind Flayer Psion
That's something that's going to be very setting dependent. In Eberron, there is no difference between arcane and divine magic. In Dark Sun, there's a HUGE difference between magic and psionics. It's fine for the game to have default assumptions, but it's not fine to use those default assumptions to try and dictate universal truths.
Yes, but for Dark Sun, the distinction could be moved fro the difference between Psionic vs Magic to Psionics vs Spellcasting. It wasn't Magic that nuked the planet, it was Spellcasting that nuked the planet. The same lore that justifies why there are now no longer any Spells above 9th level. Since Psions would perform Magic without the need for Spellcasting they're safe. This way Psionics can still be Magic so that spells like [Tooltip Not Found], etc. still work against Psionics to help with game balance. There are other presidents in the game for things that are Magic, but not Spells. Basically, just use what's already in the game.
Now you can just change that Arcane spellcasting nuked the planet (Divine magic was not really blame anyway). I don't see how this would narratively impact Dark Sun much.
By focusing on one specific example, you're really missing the point. "The difference between 'psionic magic' and arcane magic is just like the difference between arcane magic and divine magic" is a default assumption that, much like the Weave, is only necessarily applicable to the default setting, Forgotten Realms.
Yes, you can hack things apart to fit them into Dark Sun, but that doesn't fix any other setting. Hacking things for another setting won't fix Dark Sun. You can't use the default assumption to make universal arguments. In some settings, maybe psionics is magic. In other settings, maybe it isn't. The mechanics and the narrative aren't so tightly bound that "mind flayer psionics are spells" means anything to the fiction.
1) I know that Sorcerer and Warlock never existed in Dark Sun, that's why I am insisting that if they suddenly throw these Classes in that they had best write some Goddamned good Lore for the sudden change or I will be upset.
I don't really want to argue on this. If you don't like an addition to the lore, you can disregard it. In the 4e DS campaign setting, they didn't expressly forbid any classes. I don't see why it should make anybody upset that something isn't forbidden in somebody else's game.
I also can't agree that creating a complicated new pseudo-magic system for the Dark Sun setting shouldn't impose the same complexity on psionics in other settings.
2) One of the only things that has always bugged the $h17 out of me for over 30 years is the stupid Vancian Spell Slot system, I have always hated it. I have considered it "broke" since the very beginning. I have learned to accept them, I have not so quietly endured their existence, they have even started to grow on me a little since they are now nowhere near as bad as the old days (gorram "Prepared Spell Slots" razumfrazum) at least now they're not as restrictive. But I still don't like them, "Spell Levels" and "Spell Slots" have been counterintuitive since the very beginning. Sorcerers using Spell Points is strictly optional and I can have absolutely no expectation that any DM will let me play a Sorcerer that way at their table. The Warlock is wonderfully different, but that's about it. I was looking for another option besides Warlock.
If that's the case, then you're not really looking for a different psionics system, you're looking for an entire magic overhaul. That's perfectly fine. But for those of us who are fine with spell slots, I still fail to see what would be added from a new pseudo-magic system. That's my point.
As much as I love how spellcasting works in 5th edition, I would love a new system for how psionics works.
<snip>
Now, psionics is a completely different story. Psionic and psychic power isn't magic at all. It is using your mind power to move things, read thoughts, crush brains, stuff like that. Though some of these abilities are similar to the Telekinesis, Detect Thoughts, and Power Word Kill spells, they aren't and shouldn't be the same. There needs to be some distinction between them.
<snip>
I would love to see a fixed version of the Mystic, maybe not just one class, but one class for each type of Mystic, there is enough material to cover those areas, but I don't want them to just take a system that works and only use that, you can develop a new system.
<snip>
I don't want them to play it safe, I want them to take a risk, develop a new system, and publish it, and I can guarantee that people will play it.
So I'm seeing a lot of people talking like this. But what would you like to see in an overhaul that couldn't be adapted to the current system? Psionics is different, sure, but that doesn't justify a mechanical difference on its own. As I and others have noted, earlier attempts to create an alternative psionics system were a waste of time and money. Psi points were a needless complication, and all that really differed were class abilities and spell lists.
I too would be fine with an overhauled mystic, as long as the existing subclasses make the cut (perhaps less the Wizard subclass), but nobody liked the discipline system. I think each type of psion could fit nicely as a subclass if enough work is put in, in the same way that Wizard schools are subclasses. However, I could easily see this class using the same spell system with a different list, and maybe a class feature that makes counterspell, dispel magic, etc. work less effectively for spells/psi powers that mystics cast.
I'm all for taking risks, but let's face the facts: if they take a risk and blow it, they'll discourage players from pursuing any psionics options at all as was the case in 3e-3.5e. I think most DMs and players can agree that adding another quasi-magic system would be worthwhile only if it justifies the added costs of complexity. I still don't see anybody running down what a new system should add.
As much as I love how spellcasting works in 5th edition, I would love a new system for how psionics works.
<snip>
Now, psionics is a completely different story. Psionic and psychic power isn't magic at all. It is using your mind power to move things, read thoughts, crush brains, stuff like that. Though some of these abilities are similar to the Telekinesis, Detect Thoughts, and Power Word Kill spells, they aren't and shouldn't be the same. There needs to be some distinction between them.
<snip>
I would love to see a fixed version of the Mystic, maybe not just one class, but one class for each type of Mystic, there is enough material to cover those areas, but I don't want them to just take a system that works and only use that, you can develop a new system.
<snip>
I don't want them to play it safe, I want them to take a risk, develop a new system, and publish it, and I can guarantee that people will play it.
So I'm seeing a lot of people talking like this. But what would you like to see in an overhaul that couldn't be adapted to the current system? Psionics is different, sure, but that doesn't justify a mechanical difference on its own. As I and others have noted, earlier attempts to create an alternative psionics system were a waste of time and money. Psi points were a needless complication, and all that really differed were class abilities and spell lists.
I too would be fine with an overhauled mystic, as long as the existing subclasses make the cut (perhaps less the Wizard subclass), but nobody liked the discipline system. I think each type of psion could fit nicely as a subclass if enough work is put in, in the same way that Wizard schools are subclasses. However, I could easily see this class using the same spell system with a different list, and maybe a class feature that makes counterspell, dispel magic, etc. work less effectively for spells/psi powers that mystics cast.
I'm all for taking risks, but let's face the facts: if they take a risk and blow it, they'll discourage players from pursuing any psionics options at all as was the case in 3e-3.5e. I think most DMs and players can agree that adding another quasi-magic system would be worthwhile only if it justifies the added costs of complexity. I still don't see anybody running down what a new system should add.
I can see your point, but psionics is different, it shouldn't just feel different, it shouldn't just require no Verbal or Somatic components for spells, it should work different. I think that if they did a complete overhaul of how psionics works they would not only be able to prove that they can develop something completely new so that they can do something similar in the future for some other system. This isn't the only reason though, even though I have only played 5e so far, I am a firm believer in the fact that if something is different it should work different. Psionics is the power of the mind, not the power of reading textbooks until you can cast spells, not the power of being mind-blasted by an illithid until you got magical powers, it isn't the power granted to you by an alien creature like Cthulu or Dendar the Night Serpent, it is the mind manipulating things in the world, seeing things that shouldn't be seen by an ordinary person, moving a boulder through the air without moving your body at all, subconsciously scanning the minds around you. These can be represented by spells, such as clairvoyance, telekinesis, or detect thoughts, but they need to not just be the same thing that we already have. I am tired of the excuse that it is easier this way, or that it works. Just because it works doesn't mean that it can't be better. If I'm not mistaken, the rules in previous editions worked, but now we have 5e with a whole new simple version of everything. Now that 5e has been out for almost 6 years, I think we have gotten to the point that we can have a whole new system and be ready for it. I was excited for when the Mystic class was released because it was something new. I'm not excited when I look at the new Psionic arcane tradition and see that they are just using this as a substitute, because making a new system is hard. I want a new system. Not because it is new, even though I love that it would be. Not because it accomplishes things the hard way. But because it is different than spellcasting. I love spellcasting, but I don't think its smart to make mind-power use the same system that is granted to a priest of a god, or to a person that has studied arcane texts for a large chunk of their life in order to unlock the secrets of how the universe works through arcane power. Wizards are fundamentally different from Mystics, and so their systems should be too.
I think that they can fix the Mystic, it would be hard, would take a lot of work, but I think it would be worth it for someone who wants to be something new. The one thing about the UA Mystic that I cannot say truthfully for any other class is that no two Mystics are the same, none. When you combine the many subclasses, with the Mystic Quirks table that was a d20, to the huge list of talents and disciples that brought about so much customization, it made no two characters the same. I don't think that they should take all of that potential creativity and just shove it in with the Wizard. And another thing you bring up is to make counterspell not work as well on psionics, I don't think that psionics should be counterspelled at all. What are you going to do to the Mystic, dispel his brain, disrupt the electric signals between neurons so that he no longer can think hard enough to move that rock? No, this is another big point for me. This is one reason why they shouldn't just take a system that works and apply it to psionics. Psionics should not be counterspelled or dispelled. Psionics needs to work in an Antimagic Field in order to make it seem psionic. A Mystic walks in front of a beholder's central eye, should his powers work? YES!!! The beholder's other-worldly power is to make sure that the Weave, or whatever the heck it is you use to explain magic in your world, doesn't affect that person or object. Again, what is the beholder's Antimagic Cone supposed to do, disable his ability to think? No, my point is made. Psionics has to be a different system, it just cannot be spell slots and magic.
Finally, when I said that they need to take a risk, I didn't mean come out with the next book with a totally new broken system for psionics that never has seen the light of day. They need to play test it to see if it works, like they did the Mystic and Artificer. The Artificer is just now published and official, they saw that their first system was terrible and broken and that they needed to fix it, which they did. They first published the Artificer UA about 3 years ago, and now it is fixed and great. I don't think making a new complex system is a bad thing, it just can't be too complex, like the Mystic. It took all of us a bit to learn the Spellcasting rules and how components work, and how you can only cast one leveled spell in a round, and so on, but I don't think that making a new system at least as complex as the current spellcasting system would be bad. It would show that they can develop something to fit in the current rules, make it different, and have it work. I think the benefits of a new system would include:
1. A distinction between Spellcasting and Psionics, show that because they are different they work different.
2. Show that Psionics isn't magic, so it can't be counterspelled, dispelled, or affected by Antimagic Fields. You can't use magic to stop someone from thinking.
3. Show truly what Psionics is and how it works, instead of having in official rules many different ways on how psionics work.
4. Make it so you can do different things with Psionics and Magic, with Magic you can open up a portal to a different dimension, Psionics allows you to shrink down to the size of an ant and crawl up Thanos's butt.
5. A new system would give players that aren't interested in Spellcasting a way to feel "mystical" on the battlefield, they can do things similar to what the wizard can do, but fundamentally different. Sure you can both pick up that ogre and hold it in the air, but the wizard is channeling magic through spells and you are only using your mind.
6. Magic has so many restrictions, Psionics should have different restrictions. With magic you have to be able to have a free hand to cast somatic spells, another to access your material components, and you need to be able to speak the verbal components, while still only being able to cast at most a leveled spell and a cantrip in the same round. Psionics should be able to do a talent or discipline without needing to speak, gather items, or move your hands around. There should be other restrictions that balance it out, such as no armor, low hit dice like the wizard, so on, the Wizards of the Coast should determine what these limits should be, but their new Psionics wizard feels like it is half-wizard, half-mystic. I don't think that you should mish-mash these two systems so freely. I am only bothered that it is the wizard replacing these. Psionics needs to be an Intelligence based skill, but thematically a sorcerer works if they make it use Intelligence instead of Charisma. I would be okay with that, not happy, but fine. I want a new system, it needs to work differently, it needs quirks and interesting situations where it is better or worse than spellcasting, but I don't want them to take the Spellcasting system, say that this works, and just go with it. Psionics needs love, and the only way to represent it in the way that it needs is if you make a whole new system for it. I think that official psionic rules are coming out in the near future (probably next year), and I think if they want to do Psionics justice they have to develop a new system.
It's okay if you don't agree with me, this is just my opinion. It won't stop me from trying to prove my point, though.
P.S. Psionics isn't magic. This is straight from Wikipedia, "Psionics are a form of supernatural power similar to, but distinct from, arcane and divine magic."
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...it is the mind manipulating things in the world, seeing things that shouldn't be seen by an ordinary person, moving a boulder through the air without moving your body at all, subconsciously scanning the minds around you. These can be represented by spells, such as clairvoyance, telekinesis, or detect thoughts, but they need to not just be the same thing that we already have. I am tired of the excuse that it is easier this way, or that it works. Just because it works doesn't mean that it can't be better.
Look, I agree with you that in our head-canon psionics is different, but that's not the point. Why spend all the time duplicating these spells like with 3e, where every spell just became "spell x, psionic" with no meaningful difference? It was a total waste of dev effort and gamer money. And on top of that, psionics historically has simply not been that different, see below.
And another thing you bring up is to make counterspell not work as well on psionics, I don't think that psionics should be counterspelled at all.
This is not how psionics has traditionally worked. At least as far as 3e, psionics was fully affected by magical dispelling, and subject to spell resistance and vice versa. To remove this constraint would be unbalancing unless you're willing to freely give spells that dispel psionics, which is duplicative, and edit every high-level monster to include "psionic resistance". There is a good discussion on this in the 3.5e Expanded Psionics Handbook, which lists plenty of caveats for the mechanical "psionics is different" approach.
1. A distinction between Spellcasting and Psionics, show that because they are different they work different.
2. Show that Psionics isn't magic, so it can't be counterspelled, dispelled, or affected by Antimagic Fields. You can't use magic to stop someone from thinking.
3. Show truly what Psionics is and how it works, instead of having in official rules many different ways on how psionics work.
4. Make it so you can do different things with Psionics and Magic, with Magic you can open up a portal to a different dimension, Psionics allows you to shrink down to the size of an ant and crawl up Thanos's butt.
5. A new system would give players that aren't interested in Spellcasting a way to feel "mystical" on the battlefield, they can do things similar to what the wizard can do, but fundamentally different. Sure you can both pick up that ogre and hold it in the air, but the wizard is channeling magic through spells and you are only using your mind.
6. Magic has so many restrictions, Psionics should have different restrictions. With magic you have to be able to have a free hand to cast somatic spells, another to access your material components, and you need to be able to speak the verbal components, while still only being able to cast at most a leveled spell and a cantrip in the same round. Psionics should be able to do a talent or discipline without needing to speak, gather items, or move your hands around. There should be other restrictions that balance it out, such as no armor, low hit dice like the wizard, so on, the Wizards of the Coast should determine what these limits should be, but their new Psionics wizard feels like it is half-wizard, half-mystic. I don't think that you should mish-mash these two systems so freely. I am only bothered that it is the wizard replacing these. Psionics needs to be an Intelligence based skill, but thematically a sorcerer works if they make it use Intelligence instead of Charisma. I would be okay with that, not happy, but fine. I want a new system, it needs to work differently, it needs quirks and interesting situations where it is better or worse than spellcasting, but I don't want them to take the Spellcasting system, say that this works, and just go with it. Psionics needs love, and the only way to represent it in the way that it needs is if you make a whole new system for it. I think that official psionic rules are coming out in the near future (probably next year), and I think if they want to do Psionics justice they have to develop a new system.
I'll try and respond to each of these in turn.
1) We're going to keep coming back to this but just because two things are different in flavor does not mean that they can't be represented abstractly in the same way. There must be a good justification for expending dev time and effort that could be spent working on other cool things (Planescape plz).
2) As I mentioned above, you either have to rewrite previous rules, or this would be unbalanced.
3) I don't understand. Is this an argument against all of the current subclasses? Under my preferred solution psionics would only have one fundamental approach, which is to use the current casting system with augmentations specific to a given class or spell, similar to how a sorcerer has its own spell list and the ability to alter spells
4) Historically psions can open up portals (3.5e plane shift, psionic) and wizards can shrink (enlarge/reduce). If you really wanted them to do different things, you could have them both use the same system, but give psions a) a different list of class-locked spells (and restrict them from using gate for instance) and b) different class features that interact with them as with the aberrant mind sorcerer.
5) This is kinda the same argument as above. A wizard picks up an ogre with their magic and a warlock picks up a different ogre with their magic. They are doing completely different things flavorfully. The wizard will intone mystic words from a book and the warlock will be begging their patron. However they are not doing different things mechanically! If we give psions a "psionic power" called "psionic telekinesis" that replicates the exact same effects as the telekinesis spell, what have we accomplished?
6) Historically psions have been subject to the same concentration constraints as other casters, while spell components took different forms ("displays" in 3e). If we take these restrictions away, they can become unbalanced. If it's that important, we could offer psions a different list of spells without components, ie a "psionic fireball" that acts the same as a regular fireball but lacks a material component. It's just easier to include that as a class feature, avoiding duplicative remakes of old spells/powers. That's the beauty of the aberrant mind feature, same spell, different components.
I want a new system, it needs to work differently, it needs quirks and interesting situations where it is better or worse than spellcasting, but I don't want them to take the Spellcasting system, say that this works, and just go with it. Psionics needs love, and the only way to represent it in the way that it needs is if you make a whole new system for it. I think that official psionic rules are coming out in the near future (probably next year), and I think if they want to do Psionics justice they have to develop a new system.
I fundamentally disagree that the only way to do justice to psionics is to create an entirely different system. The way to show psionics love is to expand the range of options available to players in ways that make the game more interesting, are balanced, and don't require extensive revisions to existing material. If those expanded options fit under the existing spell system, all the better. A new class, some added subclasses, and new spells seem good to me.
There needs to be balance. If you make the use of psionics undetectable, uncounterable as well as allowing it to by passing magic resistances, it becomes broken from the start. This would also start the dreaded power creep as everything going forward would need to be better to compensate.
A point system is just a convoluted slot system where 5 points basically replaces 1 slot and is really unnecessary. Extra math to achieve the same result does not make anything better and is just added complexity for no value.
It would also be near impossible to create a significant number of Psionic abilities the are completely unique to Psionic classes. To even try is a waste of time and effort. As stated previously, telekinesis and the like already exist why reinvent the wheel while one is right in front of you and ready to be put on the wagon.
Wizards should make a Psion class, but following the multiple failed versions of the past is not how they should go about it.
TBH, I think they should make short rest caster class based on the Monk and Warlock. Psi-points for spells the way monks uses ki points for spells (giving the same amount of ki points the monk get to psion + something similar to mystic arcanum of the warlock. However, Psion definitely should use spells for the most part and not "spell but not really spells".
P.S. Psionics isn't magic. This is straight from Wikipedia, "Psionics are a form of supernatural power similar to, but distinct from, arcane and divine magic."
If there had been Sorcery in Dark Sun, then their intrinsic magic would have precluded the whole Defiler/Preserver concept and narrative. Now, if they change the lore in such a way to explain how the intrinsic Spellcasting of the Sorcerers did not preclude the rise of the Defilers then I can accept them in world. However, if they do not address the gaping plot hole by changing the narrative somehow then it would make no sense. I have no problem with them allowing Sorcery just as long as they address the plot hole.
I realize that an entire magic overhaul is out of the question and that asking for one would be ridiculous. I’m just looking for some in-game parallel alternative. That way everyone who likes Spell Levels and Spell Slots gets to keep them, and I would still get to use something a little different too.
D&D Spellcasting is based on the Vancian concept in which there are specific Spells of specific levels that each do a different thing. You have to be of a certain level to cast spells of a certain level. You have a number of Spell Slots of various levels used to cast those Spells.
Psionics should not use specific Spells of various levels. If a Psion is telekinetic, the character should not have to wait until they are 9th level so they can cast the 5th level Spell Telekinesis. They should simply have a power similar to that Spell that starts out much weaker when the character is level 1, but then ramps up as they gain more power. Kind of like how Cantrips already scale with Character Level. Or how a Warlock’s leveled spells automatically scale. If every Psionic power worked on that principle combined with the Concentration mechanic then I would be happy. As a way to balance things they wouldn’t need a great variety of powers then.
1) I know that Sorcerer and Warlock never existed in Dark Sun, that's why I am insisting that if they suddenly throw these Classes in that they had best write some Goddamned good Lore for the sudden change or I will be upset.
2) One of the only things that has always bugged the $h17 out of me for over 30 years is the stupid Vancian Spell Slot system, I have always hated it. I have considered it "broke" since the very beginning. I have learned to accept them, I have not so quietly endured their existence, they have even started to grow on me a little since they are now nowhere near as bad as the old days (gorram "Prepared Spell Slots" razumfrazum) at least now they're not as restrictive. But I still don't like them, "Spell Levels" and "Spell Slots" have been counterintuitive since the very beginning. Sorcerers using Spell Points is strictly optional and I can have absolutely no expectation that any DM will let me play a Sorcerer that way at their table. The Warlock is wonderfully different, but that's about it. I was looking for another option besides Warlock.
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It's interesting that you should mention that. I've actually been working on something like that to replace the Mystic for one of my players. Except Talents would be closer to Cantrips, and Devotions would be like the Eldritch Invocations.
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The 3.5 psion was a poorly balanced wizard with spell points. The powers were just spells with a different flavor. While I have issues with the subclass being available at any level other than 1 the concept works mechanically.
Glueing another magic system onto one that was already so big always seemed silly. There is one character in the party with this strange source of power. To make puzzles and challenges there has to be a big bad with the tools to combat it. Now you are customizing the campaign to one person.
And who wants to spend 30 to 60 bucks on a splat that never gets used?
Khaelen,
Why would any DM need to customize like that. Simply by saying “Psionics is ‘Magic’ even though Psionicist don’t ‘Cast Spells’” means that anything the DM would prepare against a Psion the same way they would prepare against anything else. After all, the BB has no idea:
An Arcane Trickster, a Hexblade, an Illusionist, and a Circle of the Forest Druid will each have different strengths and weaknesses and different ways for overcoming obstacles. Does the BB have any foreknowledge of any of that? No. Does the BB actually manifest itself and write all that stuff down so the DM doesn’t have to? No. The DM always has to customize/curate the experience to tailor suit their party. Unique activation methods aside, Magic is still Magic. Psionicists would be no different, simply knowing that the character has psicokinetic properties is enough for the DM to go:
”That character can move shit with their mind. Let me put some stuff in this dungeon for that character to do, but let me make sure there’s different stuff that character sucks at for everyone else to do too.”
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As much as I love how spellcasting works in 5th edition, I would love a new system for how psionics works. If their only excuse is that they don't want to develop a whole new system, then I totally think that they should make a new system to show us that they can deliver something that we want and have it feel new. And as for the excuse that they just want to re-flavor things to make it feel more at home, I wouldn't be too mad, I do like how the artificer has "spells" that are actually just mechanical inventions that they throw together in a few seconds, but I think that's a little different than psionics. Artificers are magical, they make magic items, they create magic potions that can heal, and warp creatures, they can create magical cannons that blast people with force and can shoot fire, they make a steel defender that literally uses force damage, which is mainly used for magic. Artificers are psuedo-magic users, they use magic, but not in away that reveals that they are magic users.
Now, psionics is a completely different story. Psionic and psychic power isn't magic at all. It is using your mind power to move things, read thoughts, crush brains, stuff like that. Though some of these abilities are similar to the Telekinesis, Detect Thoughts, and Power Word Kill spells, they aren't and shouldn't be the same. There needs to be some distinction between them. Are you using magic to crush their minds, or mind-power. Are you using your soul and heart to call upon magical forces that you have inherited or gotten from an extraplanar entity, or have you had to study the art of connecting to your psychic energy, spent years forming this link between yourself and your mind. I want these to be fundamentally different, because if they aren't, it's essentially saying psionics isn't special enough to be as unique as the warlock, sorcerer, or wizard.
I am completely fine with having some psychic based subclasses, I love the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, I love the theme of the Soul Knife, I like the Psychic Warrior Fighter, but I don't think that they should make psionics just be a part of magic, because that isn't fun enough. I like how wizards in order to get basic psychic abilities such as telekinesis they have to be at least level 9, I like how psychic powers are just to different that the magic versions of those spells have to be very high level to replicate these psionic powers.
I would love to see a fixed version of the Mystic, maybe not just one class, but one class for each type of Mystic, there is enough material to cover those areas, but I don't want them to just take a system that works and only use that, you can develop a new system. As for the argument that no one would use that system, I ask the question, was that system ever good? If you make a new system that actually works, and play test it a bunch, and do a bunch of interviews talking about how great this new system is, I think people would play it. They made a new class and published it in the last month, and a l lot of people are playing Artificer, because it is new, and awesome. They need to take a leap of faith, and then it will work out. I don't want them to play it safe, I want them to take a risk, develop a new system, and publish it, and I can guarantee that people will play it.
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Accord to Crawford's twitter in 5e it is. (He said that the difference between arcane and psionic is the same difference between arcane and divine magic)
Also, there is already a precedent of psionics just being treated as magic in 5e see Mind Flayer Psion
That's something that's going to be very setting dependent. In Eberron, there is no difference between arcane and divine magic. In Dark Sun, there's a HUGE difference between magic and psionics. It's fine for the game to have default assumptions, but it's not fine to use those default assumptions to try and dictate universal truths.
In Dark Sun there is also difference between Divine and Arcane magic. So there is no necessity to make Psionic non-magic just to differentiate from Arcane magic.
And regardless of Psionics for a Dark Sun setting, you will need variant rules anyway.
Yes, but for Dark Sun, the distinction could be moved fro the difference between Psionic vs Magic to Psionics vs Spellcasting. It wasn't Magic that nuked the planet, it was Spellcasting that nuked the planet. The same lore that justifies why there are now no longer any Spells above 9th level. Since Psions would perform Magic without the need for Spellcasting they're safe. This way Psionics can still be Magic so that spells like [Tooltip Not Found], etc. still work against Psionics to help with game balance. There are other presidents in the game for things that are Magic, but not Spells. Basically, just use what's already in the game.
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Now you can just change that Arcane spellcasting nuked the planet (Divine magic was not really blame anyway). I don't see how this would narratively impact Dark Sun much.
By focusing on one specific example, you're really missing the point. "The difference between 'psionic magic' and arcane magic is just like the difference between arcane magic and divine magic" is a default assumption that, much like the Weave, is only necessarily applicable to the default setting, Forgotten Realms.
Yes, you can hack things apart to fit them into Dark Sun, but that doesn't fix any other setting. Hacking things for another setting won't fix Dark Sun. You can't use the default assumption to make universal arguments. In some settings, maybe psionics is magic. In other settings, maybe it isn't. The mechanics and the narrative aren't so tightly bound that "mind flayer psionics are spells" means anything to the fiction.
Ah yes, [Tooltip Not Found], that most powerful and terrible of all spells! Sends shivers down me spine every time I see it...
But then it has nothing to dow ith the mechanics of psions unless you are saying that psionics should be only in dark sun.
Dark Sun will need loads of Variants rules to work regardless of Psionics being spellcasting or not.
I don't really want to argue on this. If you don't like an addition to the lore, you can disregard it. In the 4e DS campaign setting, they didn't expressly forbid any classes. I don't see why it should make anybody upset that something isn't forbidden in somebody else's game.
I also can't agree that creating a complicated new pseudo-magic system for the Dark Sun setting shouldn't impose the same complexity on psionics in other settings.
If that's the case, then you're not really looking for a different psionics system, you're looking for an entire magic overhaul. That's perfectly fine. But for those of us who are fine with spell slots, I still fail to see what would be added from a new pseudo-magic system. That's my point.
So I'm seeing a lot of people talking like this. But what would you like to see in an overhaul that couldn't be adapted to the current system? Psionics is different, sure, but that doesn't justify a mechanical difference on its own. As I and others have noted, earlier attempts to create an alternative psionics system were a waste of time and money. Psi points were a needless complication, and all that really differed were class abilities and spell lists.
I too would be fine with an overhauled mystic, as long as the existing subclasses make the cut (perhaps less the Wizard subclass), but nobody liked the discipline system. I think each type of psion could fit nicely as a subclass if enough work is put in, in the same way that Wizard schools are subclasses. However, I could easily see this class using the same spell system with a different list, and maybe a class feature that makes counterspell, dispel magic, etc. work less effectively for spells/psi powers that mystics cast.
I'm all for taking risks, but let's face the facts: if they take a risk and blow it, they'll discourage players from pursuing any psionics options at all as was the case in 3e-3.5e. I think most DMs and players can agree that adding another quasi-magic system would be worthwhile only if it justifies the added costs of complexity. I still don't see anybody running down what a new system should add.
I can see your point, but psionics is different, it shouldn't just feel different, it shouldn't just require no Verbal or Somatic components for spells, it should work different. I think that if they did a complete overhaul of how psionics works they would not only be able to prove that they can develop something completely new so that they can do something similar in the future for some other system. This isn't the only reason though, even though I have only played 5e so far, I am a firm believer in the fact that if something is different it should work different. Psionics is the power of the mind, not the power of reading textbooks until you can cast spells, not the power of being mind-blasted by an illithid until you got magical powers, it isn't the power granted to you by an alien creature like Cthulu or Dendar the Night Serpent, it is the mind manipulating things in the world, seeing things that shouldn't be seen by an ordinary person, moving a boulder through the air without moving your body at all, subconsciously scanning the minds around you. These can be represented by spells, such as clairvoyance, telekinesis, or detect thoughts, but they need to not just be the same thing that we already have. I am tired of the excuse that it is easier this way, or that it works. Just because it works doesn't mean that it can't be better. If I'm not mistaken, the rules in previous editions worked, but now we have 5e with a whole new simple version of everything. Now that 5e has been out for almost 6 years, I think we have gotten to the point that we can have a whole new system and be ready for it. I was excited for when the Mystic class was released because it was something new. I'm not excited when I look at the new Psionic arcane tradition and see that they are just using this as a substitute, because making a new system is hard. I want a new system. Not because it is new, even though I love that it would be. Not because it accomplishes things the hard way. But because it is different than spellcasting. I love spellcasting, but I don't think its smart to make mind-power use the same system that is granted to a priest of a god, or to a person that has studied arcane texts for a large chunk of their life in order to unlock the secrets of how the universe works through arcane power. Wizards are fundamentally different from Mystics, and so their systems should be too.
I think that they can fix the Mystic, it would be hard, would take a lot of work, but I think it would be worth it for someone who wants to be something new. The one thing about the UA Mystic that I cannot say truthfully for any other class is that no two Mystics are the same, none. When you combine the many subclasses, with the Mystic Quirks table that was a d20, to the huge list of talents and disciples that brought about so much customization, it made no two characters the same. I don't think that they should take all of that potential creativity and just shove it in with the Wizard. And another thing you bring up is to make counterspell not work as well on psionics, I don't think that psionics should be counterspelled at all. What are you going to do to the Mystic, dispel his brain, disrupt the electric signals between neurons so that he no longer can think hard enough to move that rock? No, this is another big point for me. This is one reason why they shouldn't just take a system that works and apply it to psionics. Psionics should not be counterspelled or dispelled. Psionics needs to work in an Antimagic Field in order to make it seem psionic. A Mystic walks in front of a beholder's central eye, should his powers work? YES!!! The beholder's other-worldly power is to make sure that the Weave, or whatever the heck it is you use to explain magic in your world, doesn't affect that person or object. Again, what is the beholder's Antimagic Cone supposed to do, disable his ability to think? No, my point is made. Psionics has to be a different system, it just cannot be spell slots and magic.
Finally, when I said that they need to take a risk, I didn't mean come out with the next book with a totally new broken system for psionics that never has seen the light of day. They need to play test it to see if it works, like they did the Mystic and Artificer. The Artificer is just now published and official, they saw that their first system was terrible and broken and that they needed to fix it, which they did. They first published the Artificer UA about 3 years ago, and now it is fixed and great. I don't think making a new complex system is a bad thing, it just can't be too complex, like the Mystic. It took all of us a bit to learn the Spellcasting rules and how components work, and how you can only cast one leveled spell in a round, and so on, but I don't think that making a new system at least as complex as the current spellcasting system would be bad. It would show that they can develop something to fit in the current rules, make it different, and have it work. I think the benefits of a new system would include:
1. A distinction between Spellcasting and Psionics, show that because they are different they work different.
2. Show that Psionics isn't magic, so it can't be counterspelled, dispelled, or affected by Antimagic Fields. You can't use magic to stop someone from thinking.
3. Show truly what Psionics is and how it works, instead of having in official rules many different ways on how psionics work.
4. Make it so you can do different things with Psionics and Magic, with Magic you can open up a portal to a different dimension, Psionics allows you to shrink down to the size of an ant and crawl up Thanos's butt.
5. A new system would give players that aren't interested in Spellcasting a way to feel "mystical" on the battlefield, they can do things similar to what the wizard can do, but fundamentally different. Sure you can both pick up that ogre and hold it in the air, but the wizard is channeling magic through spells and you are only using your mind.
6. Magic has so many restrictions, Psionics should have different restrictions. With magic you have to be able to have a free hand to cast somatic spells, another to access your material components, and you need to be able to speak the verbal components, while still only being able to cast at most a leveled spell and a cantrip in the same round. Psionics should be able to do a talent or discipline without needing to speak, gather items, or move your hands around. There should be other restrictions that balance it out, such as no armor, low hit dice like the wizard, so on, the Wizards of the Coast should determine what these limits should be, but their new Psionics wizard feels like it is half-wizard, half-mystic. I don't think that you should mish-mash these two systems so freely. I am only bothered that it is the wizard replacing these. Psionics needs to be an Intelligence based skill, but thematically a sorcerer works if they make it use Intelligence instead of Charisma. I would be okay with that, not happy, but fine. I want a new system, it needs to work differently, it needs quirks and interesting situations where it is better or worse than spellcasting, but I don't want them to take the Spellcasting system, say that this works, and just go with it. Psionics needs love, and the only way to represent it in the way that it needs is if you make a whole new system for it. I think that official psionic rules are coming out in the near future (probably next year), and I think if they want to do Psionics justice they have to develop a new system.
It's okay if you don't agree with me, this is just my opinion. It won't stop me from trying to prove my point, though.
P.S. Psionics isn't magic. This is straight from Wikipedia, "Psionics are a form of supernatural power similar to, but distinct from, arcane and divine magic."
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Look, I agree with you that in our head-canon psionics is different, but that's not the point. Why spend all the time duplicating these spells like with 3e, where every spell just became "spell x, psionic" with no meaningful difference? It was a total waste of dev effort and gamer money. And on top of that, psionics historically has simply not been that different, see below.
I agree. I wouldn't be thrilled if the current psionicist were the end of it, but I don't think that's what the devs have in mind.
This is not how psionics has traditionally worked. At least as far as 3e, psionics was fully affected by magical dispelling, and subject to spell resistance and vice versa. To remove this constraint would be unbalancing unless you're willing to freely give spells that dispel psionics, which is duplicative, and edit every high-level monster to include "psionic resistance". There is a good discussion on this in the 3.5e Expanded Psionics Handbook, which lists plenty of caveats for the mechanical "psionics is different" approach.
I'll try and respond to each of these in turn.
1) We're going to keep coming back to this but just because two things are different in flavor does not mean that they can't be represented abstractly in the same way. There must be a good justification for expending dev time and effort that could be spent working on other cool things (Planescape plz).
2) As I mentioned above, you either have to rewrite previous rules, or this would be unbalanced.
3) I don't understand. Is this an argument against all of the current subclasses? Under my preferred solution psionics would only have one fundamental approach, which is to use the current casting system with augmentations specific to a given class or spell, similar to how a sorcerer has its own spell list and the ability to alter spells
4) Historically psions can open up portals (3.5e plane shift, psionic) and wizards can shrink (enlarge/reduce). If you really wanted them to do different things, you could have them both use the same system, but give psions a) a different list of class-locked spells (and restrict them from using gate for instance) and b) different class features that interact with them as with the aberrant mind sorcerer.
5) This is kinda the same argument as above. A wizard picks up an ogre with their magic and a warlock picks up a different ogre with their magic. They are doing completely different things flavorfully. The wizard will intone mystic words from a book and the warlock will be begging their patron. However they are not doing different things mechanically! If we give psions a "psionic power" called "psionic telekinesis" that replicates the exact same effects as the telekinesis spell, what have we accomplished?
6) Historically psions have been subject to the same concentration constraints as other casters, while spell components took different forms ("displays" in 3e). If we take these restrictions away, they can become unbalanced. If it's that important, we could offer psions a different list of spells without components, ie a "psionic fireball" that acts the same as a regular fireball but lacks a material component. It's just easier to include that as a class feature, avoiding duplicative remakes of old spells/powers. That's the beauty of the aberrant mind feature, same spell, different components.
I fundamentally disagree that the only way to do justice to psionics is to create an entirely different system. The way to show psionics love is to expand the range of options available to players in ways that make the game more interesting, are balanced, and don't require extensive revisions to existing material. If those expanded options fit under the existing spell system, all the better. A new class, some added subclasses, and new spells seem good to me.
Sure, I understand.
There needs to be balance. If you make the use of psionics undetectable, uncounterable as well as allowing it to by passing magic resistances, it becomes broken from the start. This would also start the dreaded power creep as everything going forward would need to be better to compensate.
A point system is just a convoluted slot system where 5 points basically replaces 1 slot and is really unnecessary. Extra math to achieve the same result does not make anything better and is just added complexity for no value.
It would also be near impossible to create a significant number of Psionic abilities the are completely unique to Psionic classes. To even try is a waste of time and effort. As stated previously, telekinesis and the like already exist why reinvent the wheel while one is right in front of you and ready to be put on the wagon.
Wizards should make a Psion class, but following the multiple failed versions of the past is not how they should go about it.
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TBH, I think they should make short rest caster class based on the Monk and Warlock. Psi-points for spells the way monks uses ki points for spells (giving the same amount of ki points the monk get to psion + something similar to mystic arcanum of the warlock. However, Psion definitely should use spells for the most part and not "spell but not really spells".
That is not about 5e tho...
Headrtofjuyomk,
If there had been Sorcery in Dark Sun, then their intrinsic magic would have precluded the whole Defiler/Preserver concept and narrative. Now, if they change the lore in such a way to explain how the intrinsic Spellcasting of the Sorcerers did not preclude the rise of the Defilers then I can accept them in world. However, if they do not address the gaping plot hole by changing the narrative somehow then it would make no sense. I have no problem with them allowing Sorcery just as long as they address the plot hole.
I realize that an entire magic overhaul is out of the question and that asking for one would be ridiculous. I’m just looking for some in-game parallel alternative. That way everyone who likes Spell Levels and Spell Slots gets to keep them, and I would still get to use something a little different too.
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My major point is this:
D&D Spellcasting is based on the Vancian concept in which there are specific Spells of specific levels that each do a different thing. You have to be of a certain level to cast spells of a certain level. You have a number of Spell Slots of various levels used to cast those Spells.
Psionics should not use specific Spells of various levels. If a Psion is telekinetic, the character should not have to wait until they are 9th level so they can cast the 5th level Spell Telekinesis. They should simply have a power similar to that Spell that starts out much weaker when the character is level 1, but then ramps up as they gain more power. Kind of like how Cantrips already scale with Character Level. Or how a Warlock’s leveled spells automatically scale. If every Psionic power worked on that principle combined with the Concentration mechanic then I would be happy. As a way to balance things they wouldn’t need a great variety of powers then.
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