I still will never understand why it didnt at the very least grt proficiency in stealth. Especially when BotT can only be used on others. Stealth is mot that easy of a proficiency to get as a cleric
I still will never understand why it didnt at the very least grt proficiency in stealth. Especially when BotT can only be used on others. Stealth is mot that easy of a proficiency to get as a cleric
I dunno, if you want to be a stealthy trickster there are plenty of backgrounds to choose from that'll grant it: Criminal, Spy, Urchin, Urban Bounty Hunter, Iron Route Bandit, Phlan Insurgent, Hillsfar Smuggler and lastly (but most interestingly) Secret Identity
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Well, "objectively"was intended to be hyperbolic, but..
No weapon/armor proficiencies despite being a martial cleric (I don't think it should have heavy armor, mind you. But martial proficiencies, or at least limited weapon proficiencies would be nice), and to top it all off, it has freakin' poison for its divine strike! Extra damage is extra damage, but it's the most resisted element in the game, so you'll be doing less damage because your weapons are weaker, and there's a decent chance your divine strike will be resisted, doing even less damage. And since your armor isn't heavy, you'll probably just resort to using attack cantrips or a crossbow, but guess what? You're a martial cleric! no bonus to cantrips.
well an trickery cleric is most likely going to prefer using no armor or more discrete light armor, something they are already proficent in, and they probably prefer using more subtle weapons that are easy to hide or conceal over bigger more obious weapons. That means that they are probably going to prefer using a dagger over using shortswords, longbows, glaives or rapiers, so there is no real need to give them more martial weapon proficiencies they are not going to use (possibly giving them the hand crossbow and poisoner's kit would be nice but not nessesary).
And besides that they are not meant to be an martial cleric, they are meant to be an utillity cleric (the only combat thing at all they get is divine strike, everything else is utillity), the only reason they get divine strike is that at this point in the edition, cleric subclasses must get ether potent cantrips or divine strike at 8th level, there are sadly no other options, and since cantrips are loud and obvious (and the only damaging cleric cantrip at the time being sacred flame, something that does not at all fit the theme of the trickery cleric), they would prefer the almost completely silent divine strike effect instead, and since poison is on-brand, that is the damage effect they chose, see it more of like an sneak attack thing, or as an way to empower you shortbow or crossbow attacks
back in the day, i thought that cloak of shadows was not an channel divinity abillity, or i forgot it was, and so as a result i tought it was pretty cool, but man being invisible for 6 seconds twice per short rest is trash, they should have given invisibility to these dudes and pass without trace to the dawn cleric or whatever it was called, pass without trace is a really nice support spell but invisibillity is something you'd rather have
back in the day, i thought that cloak of shadows was not an channel divinity abillity, or i forgot it was, and so as a result i tought it was pretty cool, but man being invisible for 6 seconds twice per short rest is trash, they should have given invisibility to these dudes and pass without trace to the dawn cleric or whatever it was called, pass without trace is a really nice support spell but invisibillity is something you'd rather have
That's too generalizing. Pass Without Trace makes surprising or sneaking past enemies as a group easier because it makes Stealth much more reliable in general, as opposed to invisibility which may not make a difference with party members that wear heavy armor. Not to mention when you first get them, Invisibility only works on one person. If I had to pick between them, I'm more inclined to pick Pass Without Trace.
Also if by "Dawn Cleric" you mean the Light Cleric, Pass Without Trace makes no sense as something a Light Cleric would have, as it conceals people. If it's the Twilight Cleric, that's not even official yet.
well an trickery cleric is most likely going to prefer using no armor or more discrete light armor, something they are already proficent in, and they probably prefer using more subtle weapons that are easy to hide or conceal over bigger more obious weapons. That means that they are probably going to prefer using a dagger over using shortswords, longbows, glaives or rapiers, so there is no real need to give them more martial weapon proficiency they are not going to use (possibly giving them the hand crossbow and poisoner's kit would be nice but not necessary).
I think i would be inclined to call a shortsword just a much more valuable dagger, bc 1d6 damage and everything else virtually the same. I understand not wanting to use the big weapons, althought that is a personal choice (there is a lot of comedy for some in a sneaky person with a giant weapon). And even rapiers and longswords are a elegant, one handed option as opposed to a dagger, which does 1d4 damage i might add.
I understand that they are supposed to be a utility cleric but that idea isnt really enforced with anything other then a couple of their domain spells and Blessing of the Trickster. Invoke Duplicity and especially Cloak of Shadows are very selfish abilities most of the time and fail to double down on the "utility support" idea. They only thing this class really has going for it is Pass w/o Trace.
That being said, i still feel like keeping the Twighlight domain as it is makes the trickery domain even more useless and if they are going to keep it as it is they should at least give trickery domain the same UA revival that they gave Beast Master Ranger because the ABSOLUTE LAST thing i want them to do with new content is to make older content redundant and useless in comparison. Is a dangerous road to go down.
well an trickery cleric is most likely going to prefer using no armor or more discrete light armor, something they are already proficent in, and they probably prefer using more subtle weapons that are easy to hide or conceal over bigger more obious weapons. That means that they are probably going to prefer using a dagger over using shortswords, longbows, glaives or rapiers, so there is no real need to give them more martial weapon proficiency they are not going to use (possibly giving them the hand crossbow and poisoner's kit would be nice but not necessary).
I think i would be inclined to call a shortsword just a much more valuable dagger, bc 1d6 damage and everything else virtually the same. I understand not wanting to use the big weapons, althought that is a personal choice (there is a lot of comedy for some in a sneaky person with a giant weapon). And even rapiers and longswords are a elegant, one handed option as opposed to a dagger, which does 1d4 damage i might add.
I understand that they are supposed to be a utility cleric but that idea isnt really enforced with anything other then a couple of their domain spells and Blessing of the Trickster. Invoke Duplicity and especially Cloak of Shadows are very selfish abilities most of the time and fail to double down on the "utility support" idea. They only thing this class really has going for it is Pass w/o Trace.
That being said, i still feel like keeping the Twighlight domain as it is makes the trickery domain even more useless and if they are going to keep it as it is they should at least give trickery domain the same UA revival that they gave Beast Master Ranger because the ABSOLUTE LAST thing i want them to do with new content is to make older content redundant and useless in comparison. Is a dangerous road to go down.
Yea, I think that's a pretty fair opinion. I don't want trickery to be bad, but as a martial cleric it is terrible, and as a utility cleric, it isn't as applicable as knowledge cleric or as versatile as forge cleric. But at the same time, I really love the flavor and style of Twilight Cleric, it's a nice unique little spot that I felt cleric was actually missing.
I hope they fix up trickery though. I really do. Just because Cleric is a strong base class doesn't mean it should be able to pass with sheer mediocrity.
They should make a subclass feature variants for Way of the 4 Elements monks, Wild Magic Sorcerers, Undying Warlocks, and the other subclasses that are underpowered/broken.
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I meant in the context of a utility support. Dimension door is a good one for that, but polymorph is meh unless you are fighting other humanoids, and modify memory is just meh imho. I like it more as a fun tool for a dm than as a player
I meant in the context of a utility support. Dimension door is a good one for that, but polymorph is meh unless you are fighting other humanoids, and modify memory is just meh imho. I like it more as a fun tool for a dm than as a player
You...you do realize you can use Polymorph on your allies, right? In fact, that's the most common use of it I've seen. In other words, if you think turning one of your allies into a T-Rex is meh, I'm not sure what "good" is for you.
And Modify Memory isn't just a "fun tool for a DM". When it actually works (that is, if the enemy fails the save), it can potentially end an encounter, and the only limiting factor is your creativity and the DM not being anti-fun.
I meant in the context of a utility support. Dimension door is a good one for that, but polymorph is meh unless you are fighting other humanoids, and modify memory is just meh imho. I like it more as a fun tool for a dm than as a player
You...you do realize you can use Polymorph on your allies, right? In fact, that's the most common use of it I've seen. In other words, if you think turning one of your allies into a T-Rex is meh, I'm not sure what "good" is for you.
And Modify Memory isn't just a "fun tool for a DM". When it actually works (that is, if the enemy fails the save), it can potentially end an encounter, and the only limiting factor is your creativity and the DM not being anti-fun.
I dont know how many times i have to say that its my opinion. If you feel like using modify memory to try and end an encounter, be my guest i prefer using it as a dm to mess with players in weird ways. Im just saying it doesnt scream "utility support" and that i dont care for it. There are a lot of good spells okay, an argument can be made as to why nearly every spell that exists is good, im just not looking to have that argument thank you very much.
Now to get back on track, who else feels like we should see some more spells in some future UAs that come out for this potential source book we are predicting
back in the day, i thought that cloak of shadows was not an channel divinity abillity, or i forgot it was, and so as a result i tought it was pretty cool, but man being invisible for 6 seconds twice per short rest is trash, they should have given invisibility to these dudes and pass without trace to the dawn cleric or whatever it was called, pass without trace is a really nice support spell but invisibillity is something you'd rather have
That's too generalizing. Pass Without Trace makes surprising or sneaking past enemies as a group easier because it makes Stealth much more reliable in general, as opposed to invisibility which may not make a difference with party members that wear heavy armor. Not to mention when you first get them, Invisibility only works on one person. If I had to pick between them, I'm more inclined to pick Pass Without Trace.
Also if by "Dawn Cleric" you mean the Light Cleric, Pass Without Trace makes no sense as something a Light Cleric would have, as it conceals people. If it's the Twilight Cleric, that's not even official yet.
i meant twilight, i just forgot the name and tried using a similar name
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If we could get more divination spells that would be nice.
maybe we can see wizard spells that are as useful as augury, divination and commune without being those spells, so that you are not as tempted to pick up ritual caster (cleric), also we need features that make you feel like a diviner from level one, detect magic and identify are neat and all but they do not on their own support playing the fantasy of an fortune teller that well
They should make a subclass feature variants for Way of the 4 Elements monks, Wild Magic Sorcerers, Undying Warlocks, and the other subclasses that are underpowered/broken.
you know what would be neat tho? minor variants to cleric domains and warlock patrons depending on your speficic god or patron, maybe the trickery clerics of lolth get certain extra proficiencies and the abillity to cast conjure animals (spiders only) or giant insect (spiders only), maybe the queen of air and darkness grants darkness to her followers? Diffrent old gods grant you diffrent powers etc
I meant in the context of a utility support. Dimension door is a good one for that, but polymorph is meh unless you are fighting other humanoids, and modify memory is just meh imho. I like it more as a fun tool for a dm than as a player
You...you do realize you can use Polymorph on your allies, right? In fact, that's the most common use of it I've seen. In other words, if you think turning one of your allies into a T-Rex is meh, I'm not sure what "good" is for you.
And Modify Memory isn't just a "fun tool for a DM". When it actually works (that is, if the enemy fails the save), it can potentially end an encounter, and the only limiting factor is your creativity and the DM not being anti-fun.
I dont know how many times i have to say that its my opinion. If you feel like using modify memory to try and end an encounter, be my guest i prefer using it as a dm to mess with players in weird ways. Im just saying it doesnt scream "utility support" and that i dont care for it. There are a lot of good spells okay, an argument can be made as to why nearly every spell that exists is good, im just not looking to have that argument thank you very much.
Now to get back on track, who else feels like we should see some more spells in some future UAs that come out for this potential source book we are predicting
My point was that the Trickery cleric has mediocre features, but it also has an above-average domain spell list. But too often I see that being ignored or downplayed in discussions about the subclass.
I agree that more divination spells are needed, at least for the Divination wizard to work with.
Yea, Trickery's spells are by and large its best aspect. As someone who enjoys playing Nature Domain, I speak from experience when I say this: It doesn't matter how great your class features are if half of the spells you can use aren't applicable to a given situation.
I would love a planescape setting, honestly. Preferably with more information about the far realm, because everyone likes spaghettimonsters. I'm not sure if I would prefer it over Xanather's 2.0 though. If we could have both in the same book I would be even happier.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
well in the case of divination, you are specifically communicating with an god or divine entity, while some divination wizards might have an connection to the divine via the ritual caster (cleric) feat or multiclassing into cleric / divine soul sorcerer / druid / paladin, not every diviner will have any connection to a god or even worship any particular deity. In other words it is specifically an cleric thing
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
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I still will never understand why it didnt at the very least grt proficiency in stealth. Especially when BotT can only be used on others. Stealth is mot that easy of a proficiency to get as a cleric
I dunno, if you want to be a stealthy trickster there are plenty of backgrounds to choose from that'll grant it: Criminal, Spy, Urchin, Urban Bounty Hunter, Iron Route Bandit, Phlan Insurgent, Hillsfar Smuggler and lastly (but most interestingly) Secret Identity
well an trickery cleric is most likely going to prefer using no armor or more discrete light armor, something they are already proficent in, and they probably prefer using more subtle weapons that are easy to hide or conceal over bigger more obious weapons. That means that they are probably going to prefer using a dagger over using shortswords, longbows, glaives or rapiers, so there is no real need to give them more martial weapon proficiencies they are not going to use (possibly giving them the hand crossbow and poisoner's kit would be nice but not nessesary).
And besides that they are not meant to be an martial cleric, they are meant to be an utillity cleric (the only combat thing at all they get is divine strike, everything else is utillity), the only reason they get divine strike is that at this point in the edition, cleric subclasses must get ether potent cantrips or divine strike at 8th level, there are sadly no other options, and since cantrips are loud and obvious (and the only damaging cleric cantrip at the time being sacred flame, something that does not at all fit the theme of the trickery cleric), they would prefer the almost completely silent divine strike effect instead, and since poison is on-brand, that is the damage effect they chose, see it more of like an sneak attack thing, or as an way to empower you shortbow or crossbow attacks
back in the day, i thought that cloak of shadows was not an channel divinity abillity, or i forgot it was, and so as a result i tought it was pretty cool, but man being invisible for 6 seconds twice per short rest is trash, they should have given invisibility to these dudes and pass without trace to the dawn cleric or whatever it was called, pass without trace is a really nice support spell but invisibillity is something you'd rather have
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That's too generalizing. Pass Without Trace makes surprising or sneaking past enemies as a group easier because it makes Stealth much more reliable in general, as opposed to invisibility which may not make a difference with party members that wear heavy armor. Not to mention when you first get them, Invisibility only works on one person. If I had to pick between them, I'm more inclined to pick Pass Without Trace.
Also if by "Dawn Cleric" you mean the Light Cleric, Pass Without Trace makes no sense as something a Light Cleric would have, as it conceals people. If it's the Twilight Cleric, that's not even official yet.
I think i would be inclined to call a shortsword just a much more valuable dagger, bc 1d6 damage and everything else virtually the same. I understand not wanting to use the big weapons, althought that is a personal choice (there is a lot of comedy for some in a sneaky person with a giant weapon). And even rapiers and longswords are a elegant, one handed option as opposed to a dagger, which does 1d4 damage i might add.
I understand that they are supposed to be a utility cleric but that idea isnt really enforced with anything other then a couple of their domain spells and Blessing of the Trickster. Invoke Duplicity and especially Cloak of Shadows are very selfish abilities most of the time and fail to double down on the "utility support" idea. They only thing this class really has going for it is Pass w/o Trace.
That being said, i still feel like keeping the Twighlight domain as it is makes the trickery domain even more useless and if they are going to keep it as it is they should at least give trickery domain the same UA revival that they gave Beast Master Ranger because the ABSOLUTE LAST thing i want them to do with new content is to make older content redundant and useless in comparison. Is a dangerous road to go down.
Yea, I think that's a pretty fair opinion. I don't want trickery to be bad, but as a martial cleric it is terrible, and as a utility cleric, it isn't as applicable as knowledge cleric or as versatile as forge cleric. But at the same time, I really love the flavor and style of Twilight Cleric, it's a nice unique little spot that I felt cleric was actually missing.
I hope they fix up trickery though. I really do. Just because Cleric is a strong base class doesn't mean it should be able to pass with sheer mediocrity.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
They should make a subclass feature variants for Way of the 4 Elements monks, Wild Magic Sorcerers, Undying Warlocks, and the other subclasses that are underpowered/broken.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
And Dimension Door. And Polymorph. And Modify Memory. These are all good spells.
I meant in the context of a utility support. Dimension door is a good one for that, but polymorph is meh unless you are fighting other humanoids, and modify memory is just meh imho. I like it more as a fun tool for a dm than as a player
You...you do realize you can use Polymorph on your allies, right? In fact, that's the most common use of it I've seen. In other words, if you think turning one of your allies into a T-Rex is meh, I'm not sure what "good" is for you.
And Modify Memory isn't just a "fun tool for a DM". When it actually works (that is, if the enemy fails the save), it can potentially end an encounter, and the only limiting factor is your creativity and the DM not being anti-fun.
I dont know how many times i have to say that its my opinion. If you feel like using modify memory to try and end an encounter, be my guest i prefer using it as a dm to mess with players in weird ways. Im just saying it doesnt scream "utility support" and that i dont care for it. There are a lot of good spells okay, an argument can be made as to why nearly every spell that exists is good, im just not looking to have that argument thank you very much.
Now to get back on track, who else feels like we should see some more spells in some future UAs that come out for this potential source book we are predicting
If we could get more divination spells that would be nice.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
i meant twilight, i just forgot the name and tried using a similar name
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I would love more spells of all types really
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
maybe we can see wizard spells that are as useful as augury, divination and commune without being those spells, so that you are not as tempted to pick up ritual caster (cleric), also we need features that make you feel like a diviner from level one, detect magic and identify are neat and all but they do not on their own support playing the fantasy of an fortune teller that well
you know what would be neat tho? minor variants to cleric domains and warlock patrons depending on your speficic god or patron, maybe the trickery clerics of lolth get certain extra proficiencies and the abillity to cast conjure animals (spiders only) or giant insect (spiders only), maybe the queen of air and darkness grants darkness to her followers? Diffrent old gods grant you diffrent powers etc
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
My point was that the Trickery cleric has mediocre features, but it also has an above-average domain spell list. But too often I see that being ignored or downplayed in discussions about the subclass.
I agree that more divination spells are needed, at least for the Divination wizard to work with.
Yea, Trickery's spells are by and large its best aspect. As someone who enjoys playing Nature Domain, I speak from experience when I say this: It doesn't matter how great your class features are if half of the spells you can use aren't applicable to a given situation.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Yeah, I always thought it very strange that Divination wizards could not cast divination or other wizards cast speak with dead.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I would love a planescape setting, honestly. Preferably with more information about the far realm, because everyone likes spaghettimonsters. I'm not sure if I would prefer it over Xanather's 2.0 though. If we could have both in the same book I would be even happier.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
well in the case of divination, you are specifically communicating with an god or divine entity, while some divination wizards might have an connection to the divine via the ritual caster (cleric) feat or multiclassing into cleric / divine soul sorcerer / druid / paladin, not every diviner will have any connection to a god or even worship any particular deity. In other words it is specifically an cleric thing
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes