We could see updated versions of the Spelljammer/Darksun UA, but I doubt it. They almost never do two different UA for just new races, it's almost always just Subclasses or Classes that get two+ UA.
Most setting books have new subclasses in them, so if we're getting a Spelljammer or Dark Sun book this year, we'll probably see new subclasses in the UA for them (a Pilot Artificer, maybe? Or Space Magic Wizard? Maybe even a Psion class if we're getting Dark Sun?). Most new setting books also take a variant rule from the DMG or another book and flesh it out more, so we could get something like that in a UA version (Space Combat or Spelljamming Vehicle Stats for Spelljammer? Lingering Injuries or Stone Weapons for Dark Sun?), too.
Or we could get something from one of those "2 completely new D&D settings" that they've been working on for the past year or so, and we currently know nothing about. A UA for those could be literally anything. A new version of the Modern Magic UA (or Modern Weaponry/Armors), new spells/races/subclasses/classes/equipment specific to the worlds, or something along those lines.
Anyone else have any guesses?
Again, I would love to see an old setting return, but please tell me how to adapt Dark Sun, with its cannibalism, slavery, xenocides, the way Mul are made and the decidedly alignment driven societies and be made palatable to a 5th edition audience without losing its flavour?
I don't think that they have to do much to be honest. Dystopian Post Apocalyptic worlds are still a common and well received trope in movies, books and games. I think it will just need to advertised as such.
I think I will stay away from any dnd forum if it happens. Can you imagine the racism and Mul debate? I can.
Yeah, and I"m not being glib, I could totally see Dark Sun going the YA dystopian route, which may p.o. the Dark Sun die hards out there, but I dunno if that contingent of the market outweighs their interest in a younger market who may well be content with "nerfed bleak." Basically I see a move away from the John Carter aspects that lean toward the Gor rabbit hole and more toward a world like the desert planet Stargate first visits. I don't think that's a bad thing, though again it would irritate the Dark Sun folks, and the Dark Sun folks are the ones who want to see Dark Sun 5e supported.
Other possibility, though it would go against WotC sorta stated principles on DMsGuild, but make it a DMsGuild WotC produced "black label" product, age verification and the like. Sorta like what White Wolf did with Black Dog press where the wanted to push the transgressive aspects of World of Darkness outside comfort zones. I don't think WotC/Hasbro though necessarily wants to "go there" for their images, so it may just be best to license Dark Sun to a third party.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
We could see updated versions of the Spelljammer/Darksun UA, but I doubt it. They almost never do two different UA for just new races, it's almost always just Subclasses or Classes that get two+ UA.
Most setting books have new subclasses in them, so if we're getting a Spelljammer or Dark Sun book this year, we'll probably see new subclasses in the UA for them (a Pilot Artificer, maybe? Or Space Magic Wizard? Maybe even a Psion class if we're getting Dark Sun?). Most new setting books also take a variant rule from the DMG or another book and flesh it out more, so we could get something like that in a UA version (Space Combat or Spelljamming Vehicle Stats for Spelljammer? Lingering Injuries or Stone Weapons for Dark Sun?), too.
Or we could get something from one of those "2 completely new D&D settings" that they've been working on for the past year or so, and we currently know nothing about. A UA for those could be literally anything. A new version of the Modern Magic UA (or Modern Weaponry/Armors), new spells/races/subclasses/classes/equipment specific to the worlds, or something along those lines.
Anyone else have any guesses?
Again, I would love to see an old setting return, but please tell me how to adapt Dark Sun, with its cannibalism, slavery, xenocides, the way Mul are made and the decidedly alignment driven societies and be made palatable to a 5th edition audience without losing its flavour?
I don't think that they have to do much to be honest. Dystopian Post Apocalyptic worlds are still a common and well received trope in movies, books and games. I think it will just need to advertised as such.
I think I will stay away from any dnd forum if it happens. Can you imagine the racism and Mul debate? I can.
I certainly can, but the people on these forums are not a good representation of the player base as a whole, no matter which side they fall on. I think if Dark Sun was properly marketed, it would do well with little alteration. Of course there would likely be some changes, but I don't think it would be as drastic as you may think. Of course this is all speculation on my part.
Yeah, and I"m not being glib, I could totally see Dark Sun going the YA dystopian route, which may p.o. the Dark Sun die hards out there, but I dunno if that contingent of the market outweighs their interest in a younger market who may well be content with "nerfed bleak." Basically I see a move away from the John Carter aspects that lean toward the Gor rabbit hole and more toward a world like the desert planet Stargate first visits. I don't think that's a bad thing, though again it would irritate the Dark Sun folks, and the Dark Sun folks are the ones who want to see Dark Sun 5e supported.
Other possibility, though it would go against WotC sorta stated principles on DMsGuild, but make it a DMsGuild WotC produced "black label" product, age verification and the like. Sorta like what White Wolf did with Black Dog press where the wanted to push the transgressive aspects of World of Darkness outside comfort zones. I don't think WotC/Hasbro though necessarily wants to "go there" for their images, so it may just be best to license Dark Sun to a third party.
The Black Dog approach, I don't see happening (although I loved some works that came out in that line, Freak Legion chief amongst them), a softer version of Athas would be possible, but it wouldn't leave much of the original setting's atmosphere intact. Just look at the way Lizardfolk have been adapted, and then look at cannibal Halflings, cannibal Thri-Kreen, the problematic way Elves are portrayed and the way WotC changed the Vistani. I think creating a setting from scratch would be easier than adapting Dark Sun and still be able to call it Dark Sun. It would be much easier to resurrect other old settings like Greyhawk (yes, even with what that person is doing) or Birthright to only name those two.
It's so weird to me that people think Dark Sun invented slavery in D&D. Mindflayers and drow are two instances of existing D&D societies with slavery. Thralls exist. Necromancers bind souls to do their bidding. Dominate monster is a version of slavery that even PCs can and do regularly engage in.
Lizardfolk are described as very interested in eating people, if not exactly each other. Simic hybrids are living experiments. This stuff is already in D&D. And for that matter, you can have savage, feral halflings without outright branding them as cannibals, or half-dwarves just existing the same way half-elves do. Turns out racial identity doesn't hinge on one thing.
You can do Dark Sun in a way that still leaves the door open for campaigns to fall within a wide spectrum of political correctness in exactly the same way that saying "not all drow in all games must be evil" is not saying that you can't have a campaign where all drow are irredeemably evil.
Well, Athas does get a pretty thorough set of adaptation notes on how to translate Princes of the Apocalypse (5e's version of Temple of Elemental Evil), and I'd say it has gotten almost as much mention as Greyhawk and Krynn from a quick use of what we have for a DDB search function.
A couple points on that Athas is "more grown up even for some grown ups comfort zone" below spoiler:
As for why Dark Sun is particularly singled out as too taboo despite MInd Flayers and other monsters and the possibility of brutality more broadly throughout D&D, I'd say that brutality in Dark Sun is more essential to it's brand of D&D than any other TSR/WotC published iteration of D&D.
Couple that with my quick read, as someone with a little more than a lay background in some of the aesthetics from which Dark Sun pulls, you got dominant cultures in Dark Sun built around a master slave dynamic AND you got a visual "look" for Dark Sun drawing from BDSM leather culture to the point that Dark Sun fans likely saw the Wojchieskis efforts at leveraging SF Folsom Street and Power Exchange's looks into some key set pieces probably thought they were erring on the side of vanilla. That sort of chocolate and peanut butter, or really nutella and nutella gets a little too close to the drift of Gorian aesthetics ... and while that sub sub culture (so to speak) can be practiced by respectful consenting adults, there's a noticeable toxic cohort who also state to be Gorian aficionados and given the level of Hasbro level exposure WotC has D&D under it just may be too taboo for WotC to explore in an official main stream release product. Quite a few recent surveys seem really interested in the play experience or potential play experience of younger players. I've yet to see a question ask "how can we make D&D more adult? Given that trend I think revisiting Dark Sun for 5e (outside a potential black label or 3rd party licensee thing) would be too much headache for the hype.
It's so weird to me that people think Dark Sun invented slavery in D&D. Mindflayers and drow are two instances of existing D&D societies with slavery. Thralls exist. Necromancers bind souls to do their bidding. Dominate monster is a version of slavery that even PCs can and do regularly engage in.
Lizardfolk are described as very interested in eating people, if not exactly each other. Simic hybrids are living experiments. This stuff is already in D&D. And for that matter, you can have savage, feral halflings without outright branding them as cannibals, or half-dwarves just existing the same way half-elves do. Turns out racial identity doesn't hinge on one thing.
You can do Dark Sun in a way that still leaves the door open for campaigns to fall within a wide spectrum of political correctness in exactly the same way that saying "not all drow in all games must be evil" is not saying that you can't have a campaign where all drow are irredeemably evil.
Difference being that those societies are always enemies. Dark Sun, it is the norm. And no, I don't think that Athas introduced slavery in DnD, it just made it part of everyday life for an adventurer. It also added prices for slaves in an easy-to-use table. And as everybody is refusing to understand my nicer way to put it, but the way Muls are made leads to the death of the Human mother with all that implies. I'm not talking about half-dwarves or half-elves, I'm talking about full-blown body horror. And people think this will fly with HASBRO?
It's so weird to me that people think Dark Sun invented slavery in D&D. Mindflayers and drow are two instances of existing D&D societies with slavery. Thralls exist. Necromancers bind souls to do their bidding. Dominate monster is a version of slavery that even PCs can and do regularly engage in.
Lizardfolk are described as very interested in eating people, if not exactly each other. Simic hybrids are living experiments. This stuff is already in D&D. And for that matter, you can have savage, feral halflings without outright branding them as cannibals, or half-dwarves just existing the same way half-elves do. Turns out racial identity doesn't hinge on one thing.
You can do Dark Sun in a way that still leaves the door open for campaigns to fall within a wide spectrum of political correctness in exactly the same way that saying "not all drow in all games must be evil" is not saying that you can't have a campaign where all drow are irredeemably evil.
Difference being that those societies are always enemies. Dark Sun, it is the norm. And no, I don't think that Athas introduced slavery in DnD, it just made it part of everyday life for an adventurer. It also added prices for slaves in an easy-to-use table. And as everybody is refusing to understand my nicer way to put it, but the way Muls are made leads to the death of the Human mother with all that implies. I'm not talking about half-dwarves or half-elves, I'm talking about full-blown body horror. And people think this will fly with HASBRO?
You do know how Mindflayers reproduce right? VRGtR has a section on running body horror in Ravenloft (or other settings) so it is not exactly a forbidden subject in 5e. BUT, I would also have to say that making a few minor adjustments to the Mul's creation process wouldn't really impact the setting in any significant way. The only thing that Dark Sun really needs is a Mad Max/Fall Out like world filled with Psionics, Mutants and to portray "civilized" cultures as the self centered monsters that are willing to do anything to survive. The gaming table is where the "Grim Dark" level is set to suit the tastes of the group.
Well, Athas does get a pretty thorough set of adaptation notes on how to translate Princes of the Apocalypse (5e's version of Temple of Elemental Evil), and I'd say it has gotten almost as much mention as Greyhawk and Krynn from a quick use of what we have for a DDB search function.
A couple points on that Athas is "more grown up even for some grown ups comfort zone" below spoiler:
As for why Dark Sun is particularly singled out as too taboo despite MInd Flayers and other monsters and the possibility of brutality more broadly throughout D&D, I'd say that brutality in Dark Sun is more essential to it's brand of D&D than any other TSR/WotC published iteration of D&D.
Couple that with my quick read, as someone with a little more than a lay background in some of the aesthetics from which Dark Sun pulls, you got dominant cultures in Dark Sun built around a master slave dynamic AND you got a visual "look" for Dark Sun drawing from BDSM leather culture to the point that Dark Sun fans likely saw the Wojchieskis efforts at leveraging SF Folsom Street and Power Exchange's looks into some key set pieces probably thought they were erring on the side of vanilla. That sort of chocolate and peanut butter, or really nutella and nutella gets a little too close to the drift of Gorian aesthetics ... and while that sub sub culture (so to speak) can be practiced by respectful consenting adults, there's a noticeable toxic cohort who also state to be Gorian aficionados and given the level of Hasbro level exposure WotC has D&D under it just may be too taboo for WotC to explore in an official main stream release product. Quite a few recent surveys seem really interested in the play experience or potential play experience of younger players. I've yet to see a question ask "how can we make D&D more adult? Given that trend I think revisiting Dark Sun for 5e (outside a potential black label or 3rd party licensee thing) would be too much headache for the hype.
While the original art was certainly "inspired" by that, Darksun as a setting was more to appeal to those that wanted Mad Max but D&D, not to teach teens about BDSM. Considering that the art of D&D has changed significantly since the 80's (Looking at you Mr Caldwell), I don't think that the original art for the setting really matters when redesigning the setting for 5e. Grognards will complain no matter what WotC does, so making the art a bit less "50 Shades of Gray" isn't going to hurt anything lol.
Well, Athas does get a pretty thorough set of adaptation notes on how to translate Princes of the Apocalypse (5e's version of Temple of Elemental Evil), and I'd say it has gotten almost as much mention as Greyhawk and Krynn from a quick use of what we have for a DDB search function.
A couple points on that Athas is "more grown up even for some grown ups comfort zone" below spoiler:
As for why Dark Sun is particularly singled out as too taboo despite MInd Flayers and other monsters and the possibility of brutality more broadly throughout D&D, I'd say that brutality in Dark Sun is more essential to it's brand of D&D than any other TSR/WotC published iteration of D&D.
Couple that with my quick read, as someone with a little more than a lay background in some of the aesthetics from which Dark Sun pulls, you got dominant cultures in Dark Sun built around a master slave dynamic AND you got a visual "look" for Dark Sun drawing from BDSM leather culture to the point that Dark Sun fans likely saw the Wojchieskis efforts at leveraging SF Folsom Street and Power Exchange's looks into some key set pieces probably thought they were erring on the side of vanilla. That sort of chocolate and peanut butter, or really nutella and nutella gets a little too close to the drift of Gorian aesthetics ... and while that sub sub culture (so to speak) can be practiced by respectful consenting adults, there's a noticeable toxic cohort who also state to be Gorian aficionados and given the level of Hasbro level exposure WotC has D&D under it just may be too taboo for WotC to explore in an official main stream release product. Quite a few recent surveys seem really interested in the play experience or potential play experience of younger players. I've yet to see a question ask "how can we make D&D more adult? Given that trend I think revisiting Dark Sun for 5e (outside a potential black label or 3rd party licensee thing) would be too much headache for the hype.
While the original art was certainly "inspired" by that, Darksun as a setting was more to appeal to those that wanted Mad Max but D&D, not to teach teens about BDSM. Considering that the art of D&D has changed significantly since the 80's (Looking at you Mr Caldwell), I don't think that the original art for the setting really matters when redesigning the setting for 5e. Grognards will complain no matter what WotC does, so making the art a bit less "50 Shades of Gray" isn't going to hurt anything lol.
FWIW, the costuming aesthetics of Mad Max, especially Road Warrior and Thunderdome were derived from Australia's BDSM culture (and the Matrix was first made in Australia too.... hmm). Putting all that in the same pot as 50 shades is like putting Twilight in the same box with Clive Barker's Cenobites). It's like taking the psychological and other discourses around "who would / should anyone want to read de Sade's Justine?" and turn it into yet another bourgeois commodified titilating entertainment, which is what 50 Shades was doing. Anycase, I never said Dark Sun was meant to be instructive. However the aesthetic with the master/slave dynamics in much of the post apocalyptic barren world theme just puts it a little close to the Gorian* aesthetics I've already mentioned and I just think that's a proximity toward which WOTC especially under Disney Hasbro's stewardship would not want to "go there." *And while few of the likely finger pointing outragers would know they were pointing at "Gorian" tropes, it's sort of like that Ulysses ruling "they know it when they see it."
And again, the _brutality_ of Dark Sun in its incarnations are essential and unavoidable. And unavoidable brutality seems to go against the grain of whatever the broad brush of D&D aesthetics for 5e and WOTC D&D 2024 Projekt RED are leaning toward. Mind Flayers or Drow or Fire Giant slavers are not necessary for D&D in general and can be avoided or even made silly (a la the Squiddlings in RotFM or my gimmick about Powerstached Drow who are basically spelljamming dudes who abide having learned the philosophical alignment of "have it your way" from the King of Burgers, and have given up on all the old nastiness of their more terrestrially bound brethren). Dark Sun has some lordy edges to it as part of the substance of the setting.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be curious to see a 5e Dark Sun that's more in fidelity to the past edition's. (I like dark, and largely play D&D because no one wants to play Delta Green - "you mean the game where our characters, if they maintain their faculties or aren't already dead or worse than dead at the end of the game are more likely than not kill themselves because they literally can't handle the truth?" - with me). I just don't see it as something WotC would greenlight outside some sort of discrete licensing deal or less likely "mature" in house imprint. It's business.
Here's something I'm curious about whether WotC would leverage themselves into since their recent ascendency within Hasbro. Hasbro, sort of like Lego, and I'm not sure who started this first or whether Hasbro is still doing it, sort of has a in house kick starter, where they produce exclusives in at least G.I. Joe and Transformers prompted by fan demand. I want to say game design is significantly less cost over head than prototyping action figures (I don't know why I feel that, maybe because writing outside of law is almost always cheap) so I'm wondering if WotC would ever entertain the notion of doing sort of a "reserved label" line of products that would be produced dependent on backers, maybe using lessons learned from relationship with Beedle and Grimm. I could see a bespoke prestige format Dark Sun getting devoured by the old timers.
Well, Athas does get a pretty thorough set of adaptation notes on how to translate Princes of the Apocalypse (5e's version of Temple of Elemental Evil), and I'd say it has gotten almost as much mention as Greyhawk and Krynn from a quick use of what we have for a DDB search function.
A couple points on that Athas is "more grown up even for some grown ups comfort zone" below spoiler:
As for why Dark Sun is particularly singled out as too taboo despite MInd Flayers and other monsters and the possibility of brutality more broadly throughout D&D, I'd say that brutality in Dark Sun is more essential to it's brand of D&D than any other TSR/WotC published iteration of D&D.
Couple that with my quick read, as someone with a little more than a lay background in some of the aesthetics from which Dark Sun pulls, you got dominant cultures in Dark Sun built around a master slave dynamic AND you got a visual "look" for Dark Sun drawing from BDSM leather culture to the point that Dark Sun fans likely saw the Wojchieskis efforts at leveraging SF Folsom Street and Power Exchange's looks into some key set pieces probably thought they were erring on the side of vanilla. That sort of chocolate and peanut butter, or really nutella and nutella gets a little too close to the drift of Gorian aesthetics ... and while that sub sub culture (so to speak) can be practiced by respectful consenting adults, there's a noticeable toxic cohort who also state to be Gorian aficionados and given the level of Hasbro level exposure WotC has D&D under it just may be too taboo for WotC to explore in an official main stream release product. Quite a few recent surveys seem really interested in the play experience or potential play experience of younger players. I've yet to see a question ask "how can we make D&D more adult? Given that trend I think revisiting Dark Sun for 5e (outside a potential black label or 3rd party licensee thing) would be too much headache for the hype.
While the original art was certainly "inspired" by that, Darksun as a setting was more to appeal to those that wanted Mad Max but D&D, not to teach teens about BDSM. Considering that the art of D&D has changed significantly since the 80's (Looking at you Mr Caldwell), I don't think that the original art for the setting really matters when redesigning the setting for 5e. Grognards will complain no matter what WotC does, so making the art a bit less "50 Shades of Gray" isn't going to hurt anything lol.
FWIW, the costuming aesthetics of Mad Max, especially Road Warrior and Thunderdome were derived from Australia's BDSM culture (and the Matrix was first made in Australia too.... hmm). Putting all that in the same pot as 50 shades is like putting Twilight in the same box with Clive Barker's Cenobites). Anycase, I never said Dark Sun was meant to be instructive. However the aesthetic with the master/slave dynamics in much of the post apocalyptic barren world theme just puts it a little close to the Gorian aesthetics I've already mentioned and I just think that's a proximity toward which WOTC especially under Disney Hasbro's stewardship would not want to "go there."
And again, the _brutality_ of Dark Sun in its incarnations are essential and unavoidable. And unavoidable brutality seems to go against the grain of whatever the broad brush of D&D aesthetics for 5e and WOTC D&D 2024 Projekt RED are leaning toward. Mind Flayers or Drow or Fire Giant slavers are not necessary for D&D in general and can be avoided or even made silly (a la the Squiddlings in RotFM or my gimmick about Powerstached Drow who are basically spelljamming dudes who abide having learned the philosophical alignment of "have it your way" from the King of Burgers, and have given up on all the old nastiness of their more terrestrially bound brethren). Dark Sun has some lordy edges to it as part of the substance of the setting.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be curious to see a 5e Dark Sun that's more in fidelity to the past edition's. (I like dark, and largely play D&D because no one wants to play Delta Green - "you mean the game where our characters, if they maintain their faculties or aren't already dead or worse than dead at the end of the game are more likely than not kill themselves because they literally can't handle the truth?" - with me). I just don't see it as something WotC would greenlight outside some sort of discrete licensing deal or less likely "mature" in house imprint. It's business.
Here's something I'm curious about whether WotC would leverage themselves into since their recent ascendency within Hasbro. Hasbro, sort of like Lego, and I'm not sure who started this first or whether Hasbro is still doing it, sort of has a in house kick starter, where they produce exclusives in at least G.I. Joe and Transformers prompted by fan demand. I want to say game design is significantly less cost over head than prototyping action figures (I don't know why I feel that, maybe because writing outside of law is almost always cheap) so I'm wondering if WotC would ever entertain the notion of doing sort of a "reserved label" line of products that would be produced dependent on backers, maybe using lessons learned from relationship with Beedle and Grimm. I could see a bespoke prestige format Dark Sun getting devoured by the old timers.
I guess we will just have to wait and see. I am 50 and have traveled all over the world and didn't even know that Gorian was. Hell I googled it and only got World of Warcraft information, a Geotechnical Firm and a few people with the last name of Gorian. I think you may be over thinking this one a little too much. As far as Hasbro and Bondage goes don't forget this....
...I am 50 and have traveled all over the world and didn't even know that Gorian was. Hell I googled it and only got World of Warcraft information, a Geotechnical Firm and a few people with the last name of Gorian..
I, uh...genuinely don't know if I'd get it trouble for linking the Wikipedia page on Gor, but if you search it there you may find it, uh...enlightening? Yeah, let's go with that...
Well, Athas does get a pretty thorough set of adaptation notes on how to translate Princes of the Apocalypse (5e's version of Temple of Elemental Evil), and I'd say it has gotten almost as much mention as Greyhawk and Krynn from a quick use of what we have for a DDB search function.
A couple points on that Athas is "more grown up even for some grown ups comfort zone" below spoiler:
As for why Dark Sun is particularly singled out as too taboo despite MInd Flayers and other monsters and the possibility of brutality more broadly throughout D&D, I'd say that brutality in Dark Sun is more essential to it's brand of D&D than any other TSR/WotC published iteration of D&D.
Couple that with my quick read, as someone with a little more than a lay background in some of the aesthetics from which Dark Sun pulls, you got dominant cultures in Dark Sun built around a master slave dynamic AND you got a visual "look" for Dark Sun drawing from BDSM leather culture to the point that Dark Sun fans likely saw the Wojchieskis efforts at leveraging SF Folsom Street and Power Exchange's looks into some key set pieces probably thought they were erring on the side of vanilla. That sort of chocolate and peanut butter, or really nutella and nutella gets a little too close to the drift of Gorian aesthetics ... and while that sub sub culture (so to speak) can be practiced by respectful consenting adults, there's a noticeable toxic cohort who also state to be Gorian aficionados and given the level of Hasbro level exposure WotC has D&D under it just may be too taboo for WotC to explore in an official main stream release product. Quite a few recent surveys seem really interested in the play experience or potential play experience of younger players. I've yet to see a question ask "how can we make D&D more adult? Given that trend I think revisiting Dark Sun for 5e (outside a potential black label or 3rd party licensee thing) would be too much headache for the hype.
While the original art was certainly "inspired" by that, Darksun as a setting was more to appeal to those that wanted Mad Max but D&D, not to teach teens about BDSM. Considering that the art of D&D has changed significantly since the 80's (Looking at you Mr Caldwell), I don't think that the original art for the setting really matters when redesigning the setting for 5e. Grognards will complain no matter what WotC does, so making the art a bit less "50 Shades of Gray" isn't going to hurt anything lol.
FWIW, the costuming aesthetics of Mad Max, especially Road Warrior and Thunderdome were derived from Australia's BDSM culture (and the Matrix was first made in Australia too.... hmm). Putting all that in the same pot as 50 shades is like putting Twilight in the same box with Clive Barker's Cenobites). Anycase, I never said Dark Sun was meant to be instructive. However the aesthetic with the master/slave dynamics in much of the post apocalyptic barren world theme just puts it a little close to the Gorian aesthetics I've already mentioned and I just think that's a proximity toward which WOTC especially under Disney Hasbro's stewardship would not want to "go there."
And again, the _brutality_ of Dark Sun in its incarnations are essential and unavoidable. And unavoidable brutality seems to go against the grain of whatever the broad brush of D&D aesthetics for 5e and WOTC D&D 2024 Projekt RED are leaning toward. Mind Flayers or Drow or Fire Giant slavers are not necessary for D&D in general and can be avoided or even made silly (a la the Squiddlings in RotFM or my gimmick about Powerstached Drow who are basically spelljamming dudes who abide having learned the philosophical alignment of "have it your way" from the King of Burgers, and have given up on all the old nastiness of their more terrestrially bound brethren). Dark Sun has some lordy edges to it as part of the substance of the setting.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be curious to see a 5e Dark Sun that's more in fidelity to the past edition's. (I like dark, and largely play D&D because no one wants to play Delta Green - "you mean the game where our characters, if they maintain their faculties or aren't already dead or worse than dead at the end of the game are more likely than not kill themselves because they literally can't handle the truth?" - with me). I just don't see it as something WotC would greenlight outside some sort of discrete licensing deal or less likely "mature" in house imprint. It's business.
Here's something I'm curious about whether WotC would leverage themselves into since their recent ascendency within Hasbro. Hasbro, sort of like Lego, and I'm not sure who started this first or whether Hasbro is still doing it, sort of has a in house kick starter, where they produce exclusives in at least G.I. Joe and Transformers prompted by fan demand. I want to say game design is significantly less cost over head than prototyping action figures (I don't know why I feel that, maybe because writing outside of law is almost always cheap) so I'm wondering if WotC would ever entertain the notion of doing sort of a "reserved label" line of products that would be produced dependent on backers, maybe using lessons learned from relationship with Beedle and Grimm. I could see a bespoke prestige format Dark Sun getting devoured by the old timers.
I guess we will just have to wait and see. I am 50 and have traveled all over the world and didn't even know that Gorian was. Hell I googled it and only got World of Warcraft information, a Geotechnical Firm and a few people with the last name of Gorian. I think you may be over thinking this one a little too much. As far as Hasbro and Bondage goes don't forget this....
I'm 53, and I knew what it was. And yes, I know how Mindflayers reproduce. And again, not the same thing. Of all the old settings, Dark Sun would be the most controversial and difficult one to adapt to the ethics of this age. The other ones can be handled with the adaptations already in play. Maybe it can be done, but I'm not really sure how. Not with changing the core of the setting so much that those who would be jumping from joy seeing its return boycott it out of hand due to the unrecognizable setting it would become. But possibly I'm wrong, that wouldn't be the first time.
I'm 53, and I knew what it was. And yes, I know how Mindflayers reproduce. And again, not the same thing. Of all the old settings, Dark Sun would be the most controversial and difficult one to adapt to the ethics of this age. The other ones can be handled with the adaptations already in play. Maybe it can be done, but I'm not really sure how. Not with changing the core of the setting so much that those who would be jumping from joy seeing its return boycott it out of hand due to the unrecognizable setting it would become. But possibly I'm wrong, that wouldn't be the first time.
Will WotC make a 5e Dark Sun? I have no idea. Could they do it? Absolutely. Would it be the same as it was "back in the day"? No, and certainly the old grognards would hate it completely. However, there are fewer and fewer of them each passing year, so I don't think catering to them is all that important really and WotC has already proven that they don't plan to continue doing so with their latest releases.
Only time will tell. After all, everything that we have been talking about for the past few pages is nothing more that wish listing and speculating.
...I am 50 and have traveled all over the world and didn't even know that Gorian was. Hell I googled it and only got World of Warcraft information, a Geotechnical Firm and a few people with the last name of Gorian..
I, uh...genuinely don't know if I'd get it trouble for linking the Wikipedia page on Gor, but if you search it there you may find it, uh...enlightening? Yeah, let's go with that...
Lol. Yeah, I found it eventually. Turns out that I just never realized it was called Gorean. Learn something new everyday haha.
I'm 53, and I knew what it was. And yes, I know how Mindflayers reproduce. And again, not the same thing. Of all the old settings, Dark Sun would be the most controversial and difficult one to adapt to the ethics of this age. The other ones can be handled with the adaptations already in play. Maybe it can be done, but I'm not really sure how. Not with changing the core of the setting so much that those who would be jumping from joy seeing its return boycott it out of hand due to the unrecognizable setting it would become. But possibly I'm wrong, that wouldn't be the first time.
Will WotC make a 5e Dark Sun? I have no idea. Could they do it? Absolutely. Would it be the same as it was "back in the day"? No, and certainly the old grognards would hate it completely. However, there are fewer and fewer of them each passing year, so I don't think catering to them is all that important really and WotC has already proven that they don't plan to continue doing so with their latest releases.
Only time will tell. After all, everything that we have been talking about for the past few pages is nothing more that wish listing and speculating.
Wasn't it part of 4th as well? Those people aren't that old?
I'm 53, and I knew what it was. And yes, I know how Mindflayers reproduce. And again, not the same thing. Of all the old settings, Dark Sun would be the most controversial and difficult one to adapt to the ethics of this age. The other ones can be handled with the adaptations already in play. Maybe it can be done, but I'm not really sure how. Not with changing the core of the setting so much that those who would be jumping from joy seeing its return boycott it out of hand due to the unrecognizable setting it would become. But possibly I'm wrong, that wouldn't be the first time.
Will WotC make a 5e Dark Sun? I have no idea. Could they do it? Absolutely. Would it be the same as it was "back in the day"? No, and certainly the old grognards would hate it completely. However, there are fewer and fewer of them each passing year, so I don't think catering to them is all that important really and WotC has already proven that they don't plan to continue doing so with their latest releases.
Only time will tell. After all, everything that we have been talking about for the past few pages is nothing more that wish listing and speculating.
Wasn't it part of 4th as well? Those people aren't that old?
I don't know. I only played Dark Sun in 2nd. But the people that are more likely to have issues with a 5e Dark Sun are also likely to be the same ones that didn't like 4e.
So letting Dark Sun to sands of "who knows?", are we thinking maybe some other mentalist/psion class so that CD WOTC Projekt D&D RED in 2024 has "mind not magic" in place, or are we thinking WotC is good with the psi knight, soul knife and Dr. Stranges of the Aberrent MInd?
I"m thinking feats revised is in short order. I'm thinking the poll is reverse UA dynamics (UA then poll). They're polling because they've done some thinking on feats, see existing feats could be done differently and are now floating the crowd input to see what changes they might be able to sell through UA and create the language to explain them in terms of "what fans say they need."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
So letting Dark Sun to sands of "who knows?", are we thinking maybe some other mentalist/psion class so that CD WOTC Projekt D&D RED in 2024 has "mind not magic" in place, or are we thinking WotC is good with the psi knight, soul knife and Dr. Stranges of the Aberrent MInd?
I"m thinking feats revised is in short order. I'm thinking the poll is reverse UA dynamics (UA then poll). They're polling because they've done some thinking on feats, see existing feats could be done differently and are now floating the crowd input to see what changes they might be able to sell through UA and create the language to explain them in terms of "what fans say they need."
I think that is exactly what they are doing for Feats. I know it was very unpopular when it happened, but 3.5 was the best thing to happen for 3rd. Having 5e out in the world has really revealed the cracks in the foundation of the system and now they are looking at how those can be fixed. There are a LOT of Feats that very rarely see the table while about a half dozen or so that feel almost mandatory for "*the right build". The latest Feats are all pretty decent and can be pretty flavorful choices for a various builds and playstyles. Taking that information into account means that they can update previous Feats and make them better.
*I will add a special note here that I personally don't believe in "the right build", but that mmo style of thinking is fairly prevalent regardless.
As for the Psion, I wish I knew. I would love for a Psion class. I like the psionic Rogue and Fighter subclasses, but feel that Aberrant Mind is not a very good substitute for a Psion, but is ok as psionicly enhanced arcane caster. They added the Gem Dragons and Dragonborn as well as doubled down on the psionics for Duergar and the like, so it is really hard to say if a Psion is completely out of the question.
I think I will stay away from any dnd forum if it happens. Can you imagine the racism and Mul debate? I can.
Yeah, and I"m not being glib, I could totally see Dark Sun going the YA dystopian route, which may p.o. the Dark Sun die hards out there, but I dunno if that contingent of the market outweighs their interest in a younger market who may well be content with "nerfed bleak." Basically I see a move away from the John Carter aspects that lean toward the Gor rabbit hole and more toward a world like the desert planet Stargate first visits. I don't think that's a bad thing, though again it would irritate the Dark Sun folks, and the Dark Sun folks are the ones who want to see Dark Sun 5e supported.
Other possibility, though it would go against WotC sorta stated principles on DMsGuild, but make it a DMsGuild WotC produced "black label" product, age verification and the like. Sorta like what White Wolf did with Black Dog press where the wanted to push the transgressive aspects of World of Darkness outside comfort zones. I don't think WotC/Hasbro though necessarily wants to "go there" for their images, so it may just be best to license Dark Sun to a third party.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I certainly can, but the people on these forums are not a good representation of the player base as a whole, no matter which side they fall on. I think if Dark Sun was properly marketed, it would do well with little alteration. Of course there would likely be some changes, but I don't think it would be as drastic as you may think. Of course this is all speculation on my part.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The Black Dog approach, I don't see happening (although I loved some works that came out in that line, Freak Legion chief amongst them), a softer version of Athas would be possible, but it wouldn't leave much of the original setting's atmosphere intact. Just look at the way Lizardfolk have been adapted, and then look at cannibal Halflings, cannibal Thri-Kreen, the problematic way Elves are portrayed and the way WotC changed the Vistani. I think creating a setting from scratch would be easier than adapting Dark Sun and still be able to call it Dark Sun. It would be much easier to resurrect other old settings like Greyhawk (yes, even with what that person is doing) or Birthright to only name those two.
It's so weird to me that people think Dark Sun invented slavery in D&D. Mindflayers and drow are two instances of existing D&D societies with slavery. Thralls exist. Necromancers bind souls to do their bidding. Dominate monster is a version of slavery that even PCs can and do regularly engage in.
Lizardfolk are described as very interested in eating people, if not exactly each other. Simic hybrids are living experiments. This stuff is already in D&D. And for that matter, you can have savage, feral halflings without outright branding them as cannibals, or half-dwarves just existing the same way half-elves do. Turns out racial identity doesn't hinge on one thing.
You can do Dark Sun in a way that still leaves the door open for campaigns to fall within a wide spectrum of political correctness in exactly the same way that saying "not all drow in all games must be evil" is not saying that you can't have a campaign where all drow are irredeemably evil.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I don't think Dark Sun or Athas is ever getting more than a slight reference in 5e.
Well, Athas does get a pretty thorough set of adaptation notes on how to translate Princes of the Apocalypse (5e's version of Temple of Elemental Evil), and I'd say it has gotten almost as much mention as Greyhawk and Krynn from a quick use of what we have for a DDB search function.
A couple points on that Athas is "more grown up even for some grown ups comfort zone" below spoiler:
As for why Dark Sun is particularly singled out as too taboo despite MInd Flayers and other monsters and the possibility of brutality more broadly throughout D&D, I'd say that brutality in Dark Sun is more essential to it's brand of D&D than any other TSR/WotC published iteration of D&D.
Couple that with my quick read, as someone with a little more than a lay background in some of the aesthetics from which Dark Sun pulls, you got dominant cultures in Dark Sun built around a master slave dynamic AND you got a visual "look" for Dark Sun drawing from BDSM leather culture to the point that Dark Sun fans likely saw the Wojchieskis efforts at leveraging SF Folsom Street and Power Exchange's looks into some key set pieces probably thought they were erring on the side of vanilla. That sort of chocolate and peanut butter, or really nutella and nutella gets a little too close to the drift of Gorian aesthetics ... and while that sub sub culture (so to speak) can be practiced by respectful consenting adults, there's a noticeable toxic cohort who also state to be Gorian aficionados and given the level of Hasbro level exposure WotC has D&D under it just may be too taboo for WotC to explore in an official main stream release product. Quite a few recent surveys seem really interested in the play experience or potential play experience of younger players. I've yet to see a question ask "how can we make D&D more adult? Given that trend I think revisiting Dark Sun for 5e (outside a potential black label or 3rd party licensee thing) would be too much headache for the hype.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Difference being that those societies are always enemies. Dark Sun, it is the norm. And no, I don't think that Athas introduced slavery in DnD, it just made it part of everyday life for an adventurer. It also added prices for slaves in an easy-to-use table. And as everybody is refusing to understand my nicer way to put it, but the way Muls are made leads to the death of the Human mother with all that implies. I'm not talking about half-dwarves or half-elves, I'm talking about full-blown body horror. And people think this will fly with HASBRO?
You do know how Mindflayers reproduce right? VRGtR has a section on running body horror in Ravenloft (or other settings) so it is not exactly a forbidden subject in 5e. BUT, I would also have to say that making a few minor adjustments to the Mul's creation process wouldn't really impact the setting in any significant way. The only thing that Dark Sun really needs is a Mad Max/Fall Out like world filled with Psionics, Mutants and to portray "civilized" cultures as the self centered monsters that are willing to do anything to survive. The gaming table is where the "Grim Dark" level is set to suit the tastes of the group.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
While the original art was certainly "inspired" by that, Darksun as a setting was more to appeal to those that wanted Mad Max but D&D, not to teach teens about BDSM. Considering that the art of D&D has changed significantly since the 80's (Looking at you Mr Caldwell), I don't think that the original art for the setting really matters when redesigning the setting for 5e. Grognards will complain no matter what WotC does, so making the art a bit less "50 Shades of Gray" isn't going to hurt anything lol.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
FWIW, the costuming aesthetics of Mad Max, especially Road Warrior and Thunderdome were derived from Australia's BDSM culture (and the Matrix was first made in Australia too.... hmm). Putting all that in the same pot as 50 shades is like putting Twilight in the same box with Clive Barker's Cenobites). It's like taking the psychological and other discourses around "who would / should anyone want to read de Sade's Justine?" and turn it into yet another bourgeois commodified titilating entertainment, which is what 50 Shades was doing. Anycase, I never said Dark Sun was meant to be instructive. However the aesthetic with the master/slave dynamics in much of the post apocalyptic barren world theme just puts it a little close to the Gorian* aesthetics I've already mentioned and I just think that's a proximity toward which WOTC especially under
DisneyHasbro's stewardship would not want to "go there." *And while few of the likely finger pointing outragers would know they were pointing at "Gorian" tropes, it's sort of like that Ulysses ruling "they know it when they see it."And again, the _brutality_ of Dark Sun in its incarnations are essential and unavoidable. And unavoidable brutality seems to go against the grain of whatever the broad brush of D&D aesthetics for 5e and WOTC D&D 2024 Projekt RED are leaning toward. Mind Flayers or Drow or Fire Giant slavers are not necessary for D&D in general and can be avoided or even made silly (a la the Squiddlings in RotFM or my gimmick about Powerstached Drow who are basically spelljamming dudes who abide having learned the philosophical alignment of "have it your way" from the King of Burgers, and have given up on all the old nastiness of their more terrestrially bound brethren). Dark Sun has some lordy edges to it as part of the substance of the setting.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be curious to see a 5e Dark Sun that's more in fidelity to the past edition's. (I like dark, and largely play D&D because no one wants to play Delta Green - "you mean the game where our characters, if they maintain their faculties or aren't already dead or worse than dead at the end of the game are more likely than not kill themselves because they literally can't handle the truth?" - with me). I just don't see it as something WotC would greenlight outside some sort of discrete licensing deal or less likely "mature" in house imprint. It's business.
Here's something I'm curious about whether WotC would leverage themselves into since their recent ascendency within Hasbro. Hasbro, sort of like Lego, and I'm not sure who started this first or whether Hasbro is still doing it, sort of has a in house kick starter, where they produce exclusives in at least G.I. Joe and Transformers prompted by fan demand. I want to say game design is significantly less cost over head than prototyping action figures (I don't know why I feel that, maybe because writing outside of law is almost always cheap) so I'm wondering if WotC would ever entertain the notion of doing sort of a "reserved label" line of products that would be produced dependent on backers, maybe using lessons learned from relationship with Beedle and Grimm. I could see a bespoke prestige format Dark Sun getting devoured by the old timers.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I guess we will just have to wait and see. I am 50 and have traveled all over the world and didn't even know that Gorian was. Hell I googled it and only got World of Warcraft information, a Geotechnical Firm and a few people with the last name of Gorian. I think you may be over thinking this one a little too much. As far as Hasbro and Bondage goes don't forget this....
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I, uh...genuinely don't know if I'd get it trouble for linking the Wikipedia page on Gor, but if you search it there you may find it, uh...enlightening? Yeah, let's go with that...
I'm 53, and I knew what it was. And yes, I know how Mindflayers reproduce. And again, not the same thing. Of all the old settings, Dark Sun would be the most controversial and difficult one to adapt to the ethics of this age. The other ones can be handled with the adaptations already in play. Maybe it can be done, but I'm not really sure how. Not with changing the core of the setting so much that those who would be jumping from joy seeing its return boycott it out of hand due to the unrecognizable setting it would become. But possibly I'm wrong, that wouldn't be the first time.
Will WotC make a 5e Dark Sun? I have no idea. Could they do it? Absolutely. Would it be the same as it was "back in the day"? No, and certainly the old grognards would hate it completely. However, there are fewer and fewer of them each passing year, so I don't think catering to them is all that important really and WotC has already proven that they don't plan to continue doing so with their latest releases.
Only time will tell. After all, everything that we have been talking about for the past few pages is nothing more that wish listing and speculating.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Lol. Yeah, I found it eventually. Turns out that I just never realized it was called Gorean. Learn something new everyday haha.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Wasn't it part of 4th as well? Those people aren't that old?
I don't know. I only played Dark Sun in 2nd. But the people that are more likely to have issues with a 5e Dark Sun are also likely to be the same ones that didn't like 4e.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So letting Dark Sun to sands of "who knows?", are we thinking maybe some other mentalist/psion class so that CD WOTC Projekt D&D RED in 2024 has "mind not magic" in place, or are we thinking WotC is good with the psi knight, soul knife and Dr. Stranges of the Aberrent MInd?
I"m thinking feats revised is in short order. I'm thinking the poll is reverse UA dynamics (UA then poll). They're polling because they've done some thinking on feats, see existing feats could be done differently and are now floating the crowd input to see what changes they might be able to sell through UA and create the language to explain them in terms of "what fans say they need."
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think that is exactly what they are doing for Feats. I know it was very unpopular when it happened, but 3.5 was the best thing to happen for 3rd. Having 5e out in the world has really revealed the cracks in the foundation of the system and now they are looking at how those can be fixed. There are a LOT of Feats that very rarely see the table while about a half dozen or so that feel almost mandatory for "*the right build". The latest Feats are all pretty decent and can be pretty flavorful choices for a various builds and playstyles. Taking that information into account means that they can update previous Feats and make them better.
*I will add a special note here that I personally don't believe in "the right build", but that mmo style of thinking is fairly prevalent regardless.
As for the Psion, I wish I knew. I would love for a Psion class. I like the psionic Rogue and Fighter subclasses, but feel that Aberrant Mind is not a very good substitute for a Psion, but is ok as psionicly enhanced arcane caster. They added the Gem Dragons and Dragonborn as well as doubled down on the psionics for Duergar and the like, so it is really hard to say if a Psion is completely out of the question.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master