Heh. Sarcasm came through fine. Thing to remember is that 'The Meta' doesn't matter. Not to your specific warlock in the specific game you're playing. As DxJxC mentioned, the class is hardly underpowered. When it switches Hex on and goes full blaster it competes well with most any typical non-jankass offense character. The warlock has fewer explodey-turn nova options than shit like palladalladingdongs, but it makes up for that by having extremely reliable and sustainable round-over-round, multiple-encounter damage. By the time you hit your fourth or fifth encounter in a dungeon crawl the palladalladingdong will be sweating buckets and scraping for every last tiny flickering ergh of power it's got left to try and avoid just saying "I attack twice and suck at it", while the warlock will still be hurling Doinkbolts of Powah with force damage and most likely a Hex at need if the warlock is good at metering its resources.
Giving warlocks free Hexes is even more problematic than giving rangers free Hunter's Mark. Everybody's going thermonuclear over the multiclass power of Favored Foe; how is giving a strictly better spell on a class people already consider too frontloaded and multiclass-y the same treatment not going to cause those same issues?
My concern has nothing to do with overall game balance, that doesn't matter at my table, but instead on inter-character balance. I already have to Fry Meme at warlock dips because two levels of warlock is a critical component in at least eighty percent of over-gamerized bullshit builds that ruin tone and atmosphere at the table; that issue does NOT need to be made worse than it already is X_X
In addition to learning about warlock doinks and bonks, this thread now has me thinking about a halfling warlock who wants to stop and have breakfast, second breakfast, elevensies, lunch, tea, dinner, and supper every day...
It's worth noting, I think, that a warlock's basic Agonizing Doink damage, by itself, is competitive with most of the best martial characters out there. You get a d10 Force damage superweapon that ascends to four attacks three full levels before the fighter does. Even without Hex damage, Agonizing Doink by itself makes the warlock's at-will damage immediately competitive at all levels. Other classes can exceed it, but only by expending limited resources. In terms of at-will, resource-free damage, the warlock is very hard to beat without access to hefty magical gear or extremely heavy levels. I believe a 20th-level barbarian with unlimited rage and Primal Champion may start pulling ahead, and of course Archdruids can do Archdruid things with infinite Wild Shape, but beyond those two I don't think much else really compares to the at-will resource-free damage of an Agonizing Doink warlock.
When combined with the half-dozen other janky things Eldritch Bonk can do with a Doink-heavy Invocation loadout - ten-foot pull, up to a FORTY FRICKIN' FOOT PUSH, ten-foot snare, three hundred foot range...well. It's hard to really think that Hex is so important it needs this sort of front-loading. Ridiculously good? Yes. But I think I'd more rather see the spell itself go the route of Bestow Curse, in that once you cast it at 5th or higher (with a Pact Magic spell slot specifically, perhaps) it no longer requires concentration. Perhaps chop the 24-hour duration off and leave it at 8, but even then you have a pretty S-tier superspell...once your warlock hits ninth level IN WARLOCK.
Because oh mah beagle Jesus am I sick of the two-levels-in-Warlock dip on LITERALLY EVERYTHING...
I’m not trying to make Warlocks “more powerful,” I’m trying to find a way, some way, any way for them to do something different from Hex + Eldritch Blast twice, take a nap and a sandwich, and rinse and repeat all day long.... When was the last time you saw a Warlock cast any of the following spells:
1st-Level. Arms of Hadar, *Cause Fear, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, *Expeditious Retreat, Hellish Rebuke, Illusory Script, *Protection from Evil and Good, *Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Unseen Servant, *Witch Bolt
2nd-Level. *Cloud of Daggers, *Crown of Madness, *Darkness, *Detect Thoughts, *Earthbind, Enthrall, *Hold Person, *Invisibility, *Mind Spike, Mirror Image, Misty Step, *Ray of Enfeeblement, *Shadow Blade, Shatter, *Spider Climb, *Suggestion
Anything with asterisks (*) requires concentration and so never get cast because Warlocks are already too busy concentrating on Hex, and anything without asterisks never get cast because Warlocks are forced to be so frugal with their meager supply of spell slots. The only time they ever cast anything off that list is if they go Pact of the Tome + Ancient Secrets and those spells happen to be rituals. 🥱 Or they multiclassed. 🙄
How would you make it so Warlocks get to actually do more stuff?
So when i played my warlock i actually found a very good combination when going against multiple enemies and your tanks are in a bind themselves. You can do 2 things
1. Darkness yourself 2. Darkness the ranged enemies
If you have the eldritch invocation that grants you MAGICAL DARKVISION for 120 feet, you can effectively Hide in the darkness and eldritch blast constantly without risk of being hit nearly as much.
Vampiric touch is also a FANTASTIC spell to use with pact of the chain. You cast it through your familiar and it suddenly has its own range, especially with the enhanced familiar options like a pseudodragon.
Hunger of Hadar is a great spell to lock down opponents and do initial damage while your party sets up to fight against people who come out. i dont know a warlock that has NOT used it at least once.
Gaseous form is a great use for Out of combat positioning, or use to get around a locked door. Can be useful in combat but not really designed to be unless you are trying to escape, in which case a Misty step or Thunderstep can also be useful.
In regards to the OP, i feel like hex DOES need concentration because it is more powerful than Hunters mark.
While it may seem just like the warlock version of it, the disadvantage on ability checks it also causes is WAY too powerful. Combining hex with a hunger of Hadar or an arms of Hadar, even comboing it with your other party mage's fireball is EXTREMELY strong. Not to mention if you are really that intent on not using other concentration based spells, You really just need to cast Hex a single time before a long rest, then bonus action to move it to a new creature. If nothing Broke your concentration you can use the spell once, per 8 hours and continue to bonus action move it. And then just once a day once it hits 5th level. If anything, make a 8th level invocation that REQUIRES you to use a spellslot for hex, but it also allows you to concentrate on a second spell at the same time as hex, however you must maintain concentration on both. IE, you get hit you have to make 2 Con saves each time. Or just making a Higher DC for the concentration save.
So when i played my warlock i actually found a very good combination when going against multiple enemies and your tanks are in a bind themselves. You can do 2 things
1. Darkness yourself 2. Darkness the ranged enemies
If you have the eldritch invocation that grants you MAGICAL DARKVISION for 120 feet, you can effectively Hide in the darkness and eldritch blast constantly without risk of being hit nearly as much.
Vampiric touch is also a FANTASTIC spell to use with pact of the chain. You cast it through your familiar and it suddenly has its own range, especially with the enhanced familiar options like a pseudodragon.
Hunger of Hadar is a great spell to lock down opponents and do initial damage while your party sets up to fight against people who come out. i dont know a warlock that has NOT used it at least once.
Gaseous form is a great use for Out of combat positioning, or use to get around a locked door. Can be useful in combat but not really designed to be unless you are trying to escape, in which case a Misty step or Thunderstep can also be useful.
In regards to the OP, i feel like hex DOES need concentration because it is more powerful than Hunters mark.
While it may seem just like the warlock version of it, the disadvantage on ability checks it also causes is WAY too powerful. Combining hex with a hunger of Hadar or an arms of Hadar, even comboing it with your other party mage's fireball is EXTREMELY strong. Not to mention if you are really that intent on not using other concentration based spells, You really just need to cast Hex a single time before a long rest, then bonus action to move it to a new creature. If nothing Broke your concentration you can use the spell once, per 8 hours and continue to bonus action move it. And then just once a day once it hits 5th level. If anything, make a 8th level invocation that REQUIRES you to use a spellslot for hex, but it also allows you to concentrate on a second spell at the same time as hex, however you must maintain concentration on both. IE, you get hit you have to make 2 Con saves each time. Or just making a Higher DC for the concentration save.
I dunno, when you only have 2 spell slots at a time for so long, spells without a duration just seem like not enough bang for ones proverbial buck for too many people. Feeling as restricted as a 2e 2nd-level Arcane Magic User most of the time is, uh, a bummer. A Sorcerer, or anyone else for that matter slotted spell attack, when you only have two slots though.... And as Jx pointed out, Tomelocks man/woman/person of indeterminate gender identity. Who takes the chain?🤷♂️
I like the Darkness thing, but then it runs the risk of becoming just that + EB instead of Hex + EB. I know, that’s more to do with EB than Warlock though.
I love that idea for an invocation though!! More constructive ideas like that are what we need!
I love Chain warlocks q_q. It's my favorite Pact boon by a wide margin. So much shenanery one can get up to with an invisible familiar that has both hands and a higher Intelligence score than you do, half the time.
You have one of if not the best at will ability in the game, which scales on the level of a martial character. You don't need to be the high level spell slinger. Yes, you might get tired of casting eldritch blast over and over to get good DPR, but you know what? So do martial characters with attacking. Warlock's strength with spell slots is: A. They regenerate faster than any other caster, as you recover all of them on a short rest (so actually take those)
B. Their spell slots are much more powerful for 5th level or below, as all of their spell slots are that level, which often gives them more spell slots of that level than any other class at that level, and their spells upcast really well.
Except they are full casters. They're expected to do things, like cast the group Dispel and Counter Magic just like a wizard and sorcerer do. They have access to magic items like the Staff of Fire, just like wizards and sorcerers do, for increasing their spells-per-day options.
Warlocks actually get a lot of spell slots per day, roughly on par with the sorcerer and wizard, if you take one short rest per two encounters. They're actually very well balanced around that. The fundamental problem comes from the fact that games generally don't work that way. Monks run into the exact same problem with their ki and lvl 5+ bards with their Inspirations.
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Anyways, as for the original topic. I solved the warlock-spell-hex issue by using a magical item hack to let my warlock players basically cast Hex at will without spell slots, usually given around level 5 (as part of a custom Pact Rod), when the spell would last the full adventure day anyways. This way I don't have to worry about more multi-class shenanigans, but still allow greater flexibility with spells without actually using any house rules.
I did the same thing with a higher level Familiar spell (ritual cast 3rd level spell) to basically allow one to have both the warlock's familiar while the flexibility of the Tome. I really like familiars and their role play potential, and I don't want to force my players to make the choice when for my (the DM's) benefit. You have to wait til level 5, but it seems to be a rather well liked option so far.
Except they are full casters. They're expected to do things, like cast the group Dispel and Counter Magic just like a wizard and sorcerer do. They have access to magic items like the Staff of Fire, just like wizards and sorcerers do, for increasing their spells-per-day options.
Warlocks actually get a lot of spell slots per day, roughly on par with the sorcerer and wizard, if you take one short rest per two encounters. They're actually very well balanced around that. The fundamental problem comes from the fact that games generally don't work that way. Monks run into the exact same problem with their ki and lvl 5+ bards with their Inspirations.
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Anyways, as for the original topic. I solved the warlock-spell-hex issue by using a magical item hack to let my warlock players basically cast Hex at will without spell slots, usually given around level 5 (as part of a custom Pact Rod), when the spell would last the full adventure day anyways. This way I don't have to worry about more multi-class shenanigans, but still allow greater flexibility with spells without actually using any house rules.
I did the same thing with a higher level Familiar spell (ritual cast 3rd level spell) to basically allow one to have both the warlock's familiar while the flexibility of the Tome. I really like familiars and their role play potential, and I don't want to force my players to make the choice when for my (the DM's) benefit. You have to wait til level 5, but it seems to be a rather well liked option so far.
There has been a lot of debate about that actually. What do you consider a full caster?
If you consider a class that gets access to 9th level spells a full caster then yes a warlock is one.
If you consider a class that utilizes spells as their main source of damage then an Artificer could be a full caster, an Arcane trickster rouge can be one, A PALADIN would be one.
If you consider a class that has most of their utility, attack ability and the entire premise of the class is centered around their ability to use magic, then no, a warlock is not a fullcaster. In fact, a MONK has more utility and damage base with their "magic" even if it is fuled by Ki than a warlock does.
Warlocks are full casters, just not the type of full caster you want them to be. They are a do damage, cause chaos and wreak havoc Full caster. And they do so effectively with the bonuses given to them. Their Pact boon and invocations give them the utility they are lacking from their spells so they are useful elsewhere.
Ranger and warlock are so comparable because it seems like they fit the same bill from different angles. Ranger is a Not good enough Fighter with some druid stuff, but can do consistent damage because they can sneak around like a rouge.
Warlock is a twisted cleric, that instead of helping people, they harm them (spell list not character intentions), They can lock down areas and cast constant dps like a wizard or sorcerer but just not quite good enough to deal massive amounts of damage in a single shot. Instead they can deal consistent damage reliably, at a far distance. They can also provide a bit of support because of spells like Hex, Curse, Darkness, Hunger of Hadar. Taking some qualities of a Bard in that instance. Celestial warlock even gets a healing pool similar to that of a paladin/cleric.
Just because you may get bored playing a warlock because its best option is simply eldritch blast, doesn't mean the class is bad. eldritch blast is an ability that is exceptional in just about every situation, and you can upgrade it BECAUSE you are a warlock.
Its like saying here is a Gold ring, and someone else gets a Gold ring, but because they are a warlock, their gold ring can have things added to it.
I have in one of the campaigns i'm in, not one but TWO people multi classed into warlock. Not for damage, Because they enjoy the class and their characters themselves would do such a thing. We now have a Kensei monk/ Undying warlock and an Oath of the Aincents Paladin/ Noble Genie Warlock.
It's an extremely difficult question and I think it comes down to player agency, recognizing traps both as a player and as a game designer and trying to find the point of intersection where using EB with Hex isn't always supremely the best option but it is something you have in your arsenal.
If I may offer a suggestion and please, try and see where I'm coming from with this, if it has issues, we can try and fix it in post.
Why not make Hex an always on taunt? Not in the mechanical sense that real tanks have, but in the sense that if you have hexed something, they will target you relentlessly. Choice becomes a relevant thing, it gives gameplay for others and for you and gives you a real reason to turn it off on occasion
There has been a lot of debate about that actually. What do you consider a full caster?
That's just semantics*. 5th edition is balanced around the idea of having an 8 encounter work day, with three short rests and one long rest. In such a scenario, the warlock ends up with roughly the same about of higher spell slots per day as a sorcerer, plus stuff from Invocations. In a white room using those conditions, a warlock will play roughly the same as any other full caster. The warlock has access to the same magic items as the sorcerer and wizard, as well as abilities like Counterspell and AoE control spells for dealing with large amounts of minion types.
The design intent is very much there for warlocks to fill the same niche as a sorcerer and wizard. It doesn't work out that way, as short-rest based classes have issues in situations and table play styles that don't allow short rests as often, which throws off game balance. Warlocks are not alone here.
The problem with saying that warlocks aren't "full casters" isn't over the definition of what a full caster should be, its a problem of identifying what role warlocks are supposed to fill within a party. Its a problem of people reducing the warlock to a cantrip and pair of Invocations, as if that's the whole identity of the class. Its not. Warlocks aren't ranger equivalents. That's the problem.
* On a side note, warlocks actually do fit every single suggestion of full caster you put forth in your post. They get magic at level 1, they get 9th level magic, their utility and attacks are based around spells. All casters get subclass abilities like the warlocks do, so that's not really an indication that warlocks aren't a full caster.
No, they’re “full caster equivalents” “near-but-not-quite full casters”
I'm down with calling them full caster equivalents. I think its fair if people want to put a warlock into a different category, since they're not neo-Vancian casters. I just don't think its fair to consider them to be less of a dedicated caster than the sorcerer or wizard.
Sure, but the build that warlock is actually balanced around is a martial, not a wizard/sorcerer. if your party takes frequent short rests like you are supposed to, then great, you are already a full caster.
if your party doesn't, then you are more like a martial
let's not make the warlock overpowered because "casting the same spell over and over" gets boring.
When one talks about 'full casting progression', one means the casting progression inherent to the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard. Warlocks do not and never will have full casting progression.
Wizards clearly disagrees with assessments of "caster" classes; both Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster allow the character to take spells from bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, and warlock. The warlock is considered A Caster, by the game's definitions. But in realistic terms, ****off nobody takes short rests anymore. Nobody. Doesn't happen, because a majority of the classes in the game key off of long rests instead and don't generally feel any benefit from short rests if they don't spend hit dice. That is a problem inherent in the game design, but 5e is absolutely riddled with those so oh well.
Calling the warlock a "full caster if short rests are taken as the designers intended" is both a mouthful and disingenuous. Especially given that further, ninety percent of all "warlocks" stop at warlock level two, and ninety percent of the rest stop at either three or five. A character with 6+ levels of warlock is kind of like a dinosaur - you can find tons of pictures of them, simulations and stories, lots of knowledge about them from people who study them, but they're extinct in the wild and have been for millions of years.
So I can definitely see where the desire to make this less the case comes from. I just don't think free Hexing is the way to do it.
Sure, but the build that warlock is actually balanced around is a martial, not a wizard/sorcerer.
*le sigh* Prove it. You say that, but nothing to back it up. Warlock cantrip and spell progress match wizard / sorcerer cantrip and spell progression. Or, is somehow, access to level 6 magic across all three classes at the same time not a balance concern? How about we talk skill options, HP progression, and armor? Or magic item selections? That last is rather notable, as warlocks get access to magical items that vastly expand their spell options, whereas a martial character can never.
When one talks about 'full casting progression', one means the casting progression inherent to the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard. Warlocks do not and never will have full casting progression.
Want to restrict the definition to Vanician style magic? Fine. But that's no reason to suggest that Pact Magic should be treated as anything but a playable equivalent to a full caster.
In my experience, when people say that warlock isn't a full caster, they're implying that warlocks need to be seen as Fighers with a bow. They shouldn't.
Calling the warlock a "full caster if short rests are taken as the designers intended" is both a mouthful and disingenuous. Especially given that further, ninety percent of all "warlocks" stop at warlock level two, and ninety percent of the rest stop at either three or five.
Okay, this may surprise you, but ninety percent of warlocks aren't multiclassed after level 2. Most people who game aren't min-maxers. There's quite the number of people who play without multiclassing, and as a pure classed warlock. Most actual players want solid options to play, but then just... play without worrying about power, so long as its effective enough.
I myself played one through level 20. and I've seen others do the same, notably during Adventure League. Calling this a "dinosaur" is, in itself, an untruthful exaggeration. I'm guessing based on your personal table, which is not a good representation.
Which I think is the fundamental problem here. Some people come here and want to pretend there's nothing in the warlock beyond level 3. There very much is. Online theorycrafters are not a good representation of actual players.
(all classes get things at short rests). (except sorcerers for some reason, until they get to level 20).
Side note - barbarians and rangers are quite noticeably missing things from the short rest category. Rogue gets one at level 20.
The reason I say the are “full caster equivalents” is twofold.
As to the “full caster” part, yes for all the reasons of 6+ level magic, etc.
As to the “equivalent” part, well, a Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Bard could potentially blow an entire day’s load all over 1 encounter if they so choose, but unless the Warlock gets three 1-hour timeouts in the middle of that same encounter they are absolutely spent. If the fighter blows through Second Wind and Action Surge they are still a fighter. If a Monk blows through their Ki, they are still a monk. If a Warlock blows through their couple of spell slots, they are comparable to the fighter and the monk.
Yes they get their Invocations, but a good chunk of those require one of those spell slots they don’t have anymore, and the rest are roughly comparable to the benefits a fighter or monk get from their subclass. What did the Warlock get from their subclasses you might ask. The most noticeable thing is a list of additional spells they can learn, but oh wait, spell slot shaker’s empty. “Timeout.”
But those other casters are still throwing around leveled spells turn after turn after turn. The best way to “keep it up” for a Warlock is to rely on spells they can streeeeeeeeetch for as long as possible, concentration spells mostly....
Yes, they do get those 4 extra high-level spells if they get high enough in level, but we all know at least 50% of games end or peeter out by 10th-level.
My first attempt of “fixing” the Warlock had three features: +1 Cantrip starting at 1st level; +1 Spell Slot/Long Rest starting at 1st level, increased to +2 at 11th level; +1 6th-level Mystic Arcanum staring at 18th level, could choose the same spell or a different one.
That “fix” allowed them to either pump out a little more all at once, or hold out a little longer before needing a nap. And it gave them the player agency of having that choice. Choice is one of the things they lack over the course of an encounter. Are they strong and capable? Yes, absolutely. But they only get a handful of spell slots, a relatively short list of known spells (sorry sorcerers, youse got it worse), and then they get to know 1 spell of each level 6-9. Any of those other “full caster classes” have choices. They can learn more than 1 spell of those higher levels, even if they can’t really cast more of them per day than the warlock (ish, lookin’ at you 6th level). They can choose to go all out, or push on without a rest if they want to. The Warlock gets “le tired” several times per day. Their only real choices are to push on spent, or “take a nap, and sen Fire sé missiles!”
But then the Class Feature Variants came out and I wondered if an ability similar to Favored Foe might be simpler. Apparently by the polling youse all are none too fond of the idea. How about instead of bickering about the issue, we try to solve it.
Favored Foe was made because Favored Enemy is one of the most universally loathed features in the game ("why doesn't this let you do more damage" is one of the most common complaints I hear about the ranger). In addition, it is generally agreed that the PHB ranger is seriously underpowered, and because almost all of their spells are concentration, Hunters Mark requiring concentration and slots don't fit well, if they want to cast other spells. Warlock does not actually suffer this problem, it is absolutely possible to make a warlock build without hex (excluding powergamers I dont know if I have ever seen one with hex in my experience). Unlike Eldritch blast, which is absolutely needed. And is also an at will cantrip. If you wanted to give warlocks eldritch blast for free, leaving them with an extra cantrip, I'd be fine with that.
Heh. Sarcasm came through fine. Thing to remember is that 'The Meta' doesn't matter. Not to your specific warlock in the specific game you're playing. As DxJxC mentioned, the class is hardly underpowered. When it switches Hex on and goes full blaster it competes well with most any typical non-jankass offense character. The warlock has fewer explodey-turn nova options than shit like palladalladingdongs, but it makes up for that by having extremely reliable and sustainable round-over-round, multiple-encounter damage. By the time you hit your fourth or fifth encounter in a dungeon crawl the palladalladingdong will be sweating buckets and scraping for every last tiny flickering ergh of power it's got left to try and avoid just saying "I attack twice and suck at it", while the warlock will still be hurling Doinkbolts of Powah with force damage and most likely a Hex at need if the warlock is good at metering its resources.
Giving warlocks free Hexes is even more problematic than giving rangers free Hunter's Mark. Everybody's going thermonuclear over the multiclass power of Favored Foe; how is giving a strictly better spell on a class people already consider too frontloaded and multiclass-y the same treatment not going to cause those same issues?
My concern has nothing to do with overall game balance, that doesn't matter at my table, but instead on inter-character balance. I already have to Fry Meme at warlock dips because two levels of warlock is a critical component in at least eighty percent of over-gamerized bullshit builds that ruin tone and atmosphere at the table; that issue does NOT need to be made worse than it already is X_X
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Fry Meme 😂🤣
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In addition to learning about warlock doinks and bonks, this thread now has me thinking about a halfling warlock who wants to stop and have breakfast, second breakfast, elevensies, lunch, tea, dinner, and supper every day...
So when i played my warlock i actually found a very good combination when going against multiple enemies and your tanks are in a bind themselves. You can do 2 things
1. Darkness yourself
2. Darkness the ranged enemies
If you have the eldritch invocation that grants you MAGICAL DARKVISION for 120 feet, you can effectively Hide in the darkness and eldritch blast constantly without risk of being hit nearly as much.
Vampiric touch is also a FANTASTIC spell to use with pact of the chain. You cast it through your familiar and it suddenly has its own range, especially with the enhanced familiar options like a pseudodragon.
Hunger of Hadar is a great spell to lock down opponents and do initial damage while your party sets up to fight against people who come out. i dont know a warlock that has NOT used it at least once.
Gaseous form is a great use for Out of combat positioning, or use to get around a locked door. Can be useful in combat but not really designed to be unless you are trying to escape, in which case a Misty step or Thunderstep can also be useful.
In regards to the OP, i feel like hex DOES need concentration because it is more powerful than Hunters mark.
While it may seem just like the warlock version of it, the disadvantage on ability checks it also causes is WAY too powerful. Combining hex with a hunger of Hadar or an arms of Hadar, even comboing it with your other party mage's fireball is EXTREMELY strong. Not to mention if you are really that intent on not using other concentration based spells, You really just need to cast Hex a single time before a long rest, then bonus action to move it to a new creature. If nothing Broke your concentration you can use the spell once, per 8 hours and continue to bonus action move it. And then just once a day once it hits 5th level. If anything, make a 8th level invocation that REQUIRES you to use a spellslot for hex, but it also allows you to concentrate on a second spell at the same time as hex, however you must maintain concentration on both. IE, you get hit you have to make 2 Con saves each time. Or just making a Higher DC for the concentration save.
I dunno, when you only have 2 spell slots at a time for so long, spells without a duration just seem like not enough bang for ones proverbial buck for too many people. Feeling as restricted as a 2e 2nd-level Arcane Magic User most of the time is, uh, a bummer. A Sorcerer, or anyone else for that matter slotted spell attack, when you only have two slots though.... And as Jx pointed out, Tomelocks man/woman/person of indeterminate gender identity. Who takes the chain?🤷♂️
I like the Darkness thing, but then it runs the risk of becoming just that + EB instead of Hex + EB. I know, that’s more to do with EB than Warlock though.
I love that idea for an invocation though!! More constructive ideas like that are what we need!
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I love Chain warlocks q_q. It's my favorite Pact boon by a wide margin. So much shenanery one can get up to with an invisible familiar that has both hands and a higher Intelligence score than you do, half the time.
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Stop playing your warlocks like full casters.
...
No, really, that's it.
You have one of if not the best at will ability in the game, which scales on the level of a martial character. You don't need to be the high level spell slinger. Yes, you might get tired of casting eldritch blast over and over to get good DPR, but you know what? So do martial characters with attacking. Warlock's strength with spell slots is:
A. They regenerate faster than any other caster, as you recover all of them on a short rest (so actually take those)
B. Their spell slots are much more powerful for 5th level or below, as all of their spell slots are that level, which often gives them more spell slots of that level than any other class at that level, and their spells upcast really well.
Except they are full casters. They're expected to do things, like cast the group Dispel and Counter Magic just like a wizard and sorcerer do. They have access to magic items like the Staff of Fire, just like wizards and sorcerers do, for increasing their spells-per-day options.
Warlocks actually get a lot of spell slots per day, roughly on par with the sorcerer and wizard, if you take one short rest per two encounters. They're actually very well balanced around that. The fundamental problem comes from the fact that games generally don't work that way. Monks run into the exact same problem with their ki and lvl 5+ bards with their Inspirations.
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Anyways, as for the original topic. I solved the warlock-spell-hex issue by using a magical item hack to let my warlock players basically cast Hex at will without spell slots, usually given around level 5 (as part of a custom Pact Rod), when the spell would last the full adventure day anyways. This way I don't have to worry about more multi-class shenanigans, but still allow greater flexibility with spells without actually using any house rules.
I did the same thing with a higher level Familiar spell (ritual cast 3rd level spell) to basically allow one to have both the warlock's familiar while the flexibility of the Tome. I really like familiars and their role play potential, and I don't want to force my players to make the choice when for my (the DM's) benefit. You have to wait til level 5, but it seems to be a rather well liked option so far.
There has been a lot of debate about that actually. What do you consider a full caster?
If you consider a class that gets access to 9th level spells a full caster then yes a warlock is one.
If you consider a class that utilizes spells as their main source of damage then an Artificer could be a full caster, an Arcane trickster rouge can be one, A PALADIN would be one.
If you consider a class that has most of their utility, attack ability and the entire premise of the class is centered around their ability to use magic, then no, a warlock is not a fullcaster. In fact, a MONK has more utility and damage base with their "magic" even if it is fuled by Ki than a warlock does.
Warlocks are full casters, just not the type of full caster you want them to be. They are a do damage, cause chaos and wreak havoc Full caster. And they do so effectively with the bonuses given to them. Their Pact boon and invocations give them the utility they are lacking from their spells so they are useful elsewhere.
Ranger and warlock are so comparable because it seems like they fit the same bill from different angles. Ranger is a Not good enough Fighter with some druid stuff, but can do consistent damage because they can sneak around like a rouge.
Warlock is a twisted cleric, that instead of helping people, they harm them (spell list not character intentions), They can lock down areas and cast constant dps like a wizard or sorcerer but just not quite good enough to deal massive amounts of damage in a single shot. Instead they can deal consistent damage reliably, at a far distance. They can also provide a bit of support because of spells like Hex, Curse, Darkness, Hunger of Hadar. Taking some qualities of a Bard in that instance. Celestial warlock even gets a healing pool similar to that of a paladin/cleric.
Just because you may get bored playing a warlock because its best option is simply eldritch blast, doesn't mean the class is bad. eldritch blast is an ability that is exceptional in just about every situation, and you can upgrade it BECAUSE you are a warlock.
Its like saying here is a Gold ring, and someone else gets a Gold ring, but because they are a warlock, their gold ring can have things added to it.
I have in one of the campaigns i'm in, not one but TWO people multi classed into warlock. Not for damage, Because they enjoy the class and their characters themselves would do such a thing. We now have a Kensei monk/ Undying warlock and an Oath of the Aincents Paladin/ Noble Genie Warlock.
No, they’re “full caster equivalents” “near-but-not-quite full casters”
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It's an extremely difficult question and I think it comes down to player agency, recognizing traps both as a player and as a game designer and trying to find the point of intersection where using EB with Hex isn't always supremely the best option but it is something you have in your arsenal.
If I may offer a suggestion and please, try and see where I'm coming from with this, if it has issues, we can try and fix it in post.
Why not make Hex an always on taunt? Not in the mechanical sense that real tanks have, but in the sense that if you have hexed something, they will target you relentlessly. Choice becomes a relevant thing, it gives gameplay for others and for you and gives you a real reason to turn it off on occasion
I'm down with calling them full caster equivalents. I think its fair if people want to put a warlock into a different category, since they're not neo-Vancian casters. I just don't think its fair to consider them to be less of a dedicated caster than the sorcerer or wizard.
Sure, but the build that warlock is actually balanced around is a martial, not a wizard/sorcerer.
if your party takes frequent short rests like you are supposed to, then great, you are already a full caster.
if your party doesn't, then you are more like a martial
let's not make the warlock overpowered because "casting the same spell over and over" gets boring.
When one talks about 'full casting progression', one means the casting progression inherent to the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard. Warlocks do not and never will have full casting progression.
Wizards clearly disagrees with assessments of "caster" classes; both Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster allow the character to take spells from bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, and warlock. The warlock is considered A Caster, by the game's definitions. But in realistic terms, ****off nobody takes short rests anymore. Nobody. Doesn't happen, because a majority of the classes in the game key off of long rests instead and don't generally feel any benefit from short rests if they don't spend hit dice. That is a problem inherent in the game design, but 5e is absolutely riddled with those so oh well.
Calling the warlock a "full caster if short rests are taken as the designers intended" is both a mouthful and disingenuous. Especially given that further, ninety percent of all "warlocks" stop at warlock level two, and ninety percent of the rest stop at either three or five. A character with 6+ levels of warlock is kind of like a dinosaur - you can find tons of pictures of them, simulations and stories, lots of knowledge about them from people who study them, but they're extinct in the wild and have been for millions of years.
So I can definitely see where the desire to make this less the case comes from. I just don't think free Hexing is the way to do it.
Please do not contact or message me.
(all classes get things at short rests).
(except sorcerers for some reason, until they get to level 20).
(many tables take short rests. Yours doesn't.)
*le sigh* Prove it. You say that, but nothing to back it up. Warlock cantrip and spell progress match wizard / sorcerer cantrip and spell progression. Or, is somehow, access to level 6 magic across all three classes at the same time not a balance concern? How about we talk skill options, HP progression, and armor? Or magic item selections? That last is rather notable, as warlocks get access to magical items that vastly expand their spell options, whereas a martial character can never.
Eldritch Blast is NOT the whole of the class.
Want to restrict the definition to Vanician style magic? Fine. But that's no reason to suggest that Pact Magic should be treated as anything but a playable equivalent to a full caster.
In my experience, when people say that warlock isn't a full caster, they're implying that warlocks need to be seen as Fighers with a bow. They shouldn't.
Okay, this may surprise you, but ninety percent of warlocks aren't multiclassed after level 2. Most people who game aren't min-maxers. There's quite the number of people who play without multiclassing, and as a pure classed warlock. Most actual players want solid options to play, but then just... play without worrying about power, so long as its effective enough.
I myself played one through level 20. and I've seen others do the same, notably during Adventure League. Calling this a "dinosaur" is, in itself, an untruthful exaggeration. I'm guessing based on your personal table, which is not a good representation.
Which I think is the fundamental problem here. Some people come here and want to pretend there's nothing in the warlock beyond level 3. There very much is. Online theorycrafters are not a good representation of actual players.
Side note - barbarians and rangers are quite noticeably missing things from the short rest category. Rogue gets one at level 20.
Rogue has one ability that actually has to recharge, and that is the one they get at level 20.
You're right about the barbarian and the ranger though, I had thought rages recharged on a short rest.
The reason I say the are “full caster equivalents” is twofold.
As to the “full caster” part, yes for all the reasons of 6+ level magic, etc.
As to the “equivalent” part, well, a Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Bard could potentially blow an entire day’s load all over 1 encounter if they so choose, but unless the Warlock gets three 1-hour timeouts in the middle of that same encounter they are absolutely spent. If the fighter blows through Second Wind and Action Surge they are still a fighter. If a Monk blows through their Ki, they are still a monk. If a Warlock blows through their couple of spell slots, they are comparable to the fighter and the monk.
Yes they get their Invocations, but a good chunk of those require one of those spell slots they don’t have anymore, and the rest are roughly comparable to the benefits a fighter or monk get from their subclass. What did the Warlock get from their subclasses you might ask. The most noticeable thing is a list of additional spells they can learn, but oh wait, spell slot shaker’s empty. “Timeout.”
But those other casters are still throwing around leveled spells turn after turn after turn. The best way to “keep it up” for a Warlock is to rely on spells they can streeeeeeeeetch for as long as possible, concentration spells mostly....
Yes, they do get those 4 extra high-level spells if they get high enough in level, but we all know at least 50% of games end or peeter out by 10th-level.
My first attempt of “fixing” the Warlock had three features: +1 Cantrip starting at 1st level; +1 Spell Slot/Long Rest starting at 1st level, increased to +2 at 11th level; +1 6th-level Mystic Arcanum staring at 18th level, could choose the same spell or a different one.
That “fix” allowed them to either pump out a little more all at once, or hold out a little longer before needing a nap. And it gave them the player agency of having that choice. Choice is one of the things they lack over the course of an encounter. Are they strong and capable? Yes, absolutely. But they only get a handful of spell slots, a relatively short list of known spells (sorry sorcerers, youse got it worse), and then they get to know 1 spell of each level 6-9. Any of those other “full caster classes” have choices. They can learn more than 1 spell of those higher levels, even if they can’t really cast more of them per day than the warlock (ish, lookin’ at you 6th level). They can choose to go all out, or push on without a rest if they want to. The Warlock gets “le tired” several times per day. Their only real choices are to push on spent, or “take a nap, and sen Fire sé missiles!”
But then the Class Feature Variants came out and I wondered if an ability similar to Favored Foe might be simpler. Apparently by the polling youse all are none too fond of the idea. How about instead of bickering about the issue, we try to solve it.
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Favored Foe was made because Favored Enemy is one of the most universally loathed features in the game ("why doesn't this let you do more damage" is one of the most common complaints I hear about the ranger). In addition, it is generally agreed that the PHB ranger is seriously underpowered, and because almost all of their spells are concentration, Hunters Mark requiring concentration and slots don't fit well, if they want to cast other spells. Warlock does not actually suffer this problem, it is absolutely possible to make a warlock build without hex (excluding powergamers I dont know if I have ever seen one with hex in my experience). Unlike Eldritch blast, which is absolutely needed. And is also an at will cantrip. If you wanted to give warlocks eldritch blast for free, leaving them with an extra cantrip, I'd be fine with that.