Favored Foe was made because Favored Enemy is one of the most universally loathed features in the game ("why doesn't this let you do more damage" is one of the most common complaints I hear about the ranger). In addition, it is generally agreed that the PHB ranger is seriously underpowered, and because almost all of their spells are concentration, Hunters Mark requiring concentration and slots don't fit well, if they want to cast other spells. Warlock does not actually suffer this problem, it is absolutely possible to make a warlock build without hex (excluding powergamers I dont know if I have ever seen one with hex in my experience). Unlike Eldritch blast, which is absolutely needed. And is also an at will cantrip. If you wanted to give warlocks eldritch blast for free, leaving them with an extra cantrip, I'd be fine with that.
So you're saying that warlocks don't need Hex, but they do need eldritch blast?
How does this make sense? Saying that a class depends on a single spell or two is very limiting. I have never seen a warlock without eldritch blast, but I have seen warlocks that don't use it that often (hexblades).
Also, if you take eldritch blast and don't take hex, you are doing something wrong as a warlock. One of the things that makes warlocks so good at dealing damage at later levels is the fact that they can Hex and then eldritch blast the same target multiple times in around with 14 (1d10 force + 1d6 necrotic + 5 damage) on each blast, and still knock people around. Hex lets you do tons of damage if you have a bunch of attacks.
Also, warlocks can be totally viable without taking eldritch blast or hex. They have other good spells, but not many as good as hex and eldritch blast.
I would possibly allow a warlock to get a free hex, not eldritch blast, because hex is used not only for eldritch blast, but for hexblades and other damaging spells, and I do find it as essential to the Warlock class as Hunter's Mark is to the ranger.
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Hex is a good warlock spell. Eldritch blast is a necessary warlock spell. Hex increases your damage and makes you do a lot more. Eldritch blast makes you able to deal damage regularly on par with a martial. You can play a wizard and not learn fireball. You cannot play a wizard and not learn any damaging cantrips, yet still expect to do damage well.
Favored Foe was made because Favored Enemy is one of the most universally loathed features in the game ("why doesn't this let you do more damage" is one of the most common complaints I hear about the ranger). In addition, it is generally agreed that the PHB ranger is seriously underpowered, and because almost all of their spells are concentration, Hunters Mark requiring concentration and slots don't fit well, if they want to cast other spells. Warlock does not actually suffer this problem, it is absolutely possible to make a warlock build without hex (excluding powergamers I dont know if I have ever seen one with hex in my experience). Unlike Eldritch blast, which is absolutely needed. And is also an at will cantrip. If you wanted to give warlocks eldritch blast for free, leaving them with an extra cantrip, I'd be fine with that.
So you're saying that warlocks don't need Hex, but they do need eldritch blast?
How does this make sense? Saying that a class depends on a single spell or two is very limiting. I have never seen a warlock without eldritch blast, but I have seen warlocks that don't use it that often (hexblades).
Also, if you take eldritch blast and don't take hex, you are doing something wrong as a warlock. One of the things that makes warlocks so good at dealing damage at later levels is the fact that they can Hex and then eldritch blast the same target multiple times in around with 14 (1d10 force + 1d6 necrotic + 5 damage) on each blast, and still knock people around. Hex lets you do tons of damage if you have a bunch of attacks.
Also, warlocks can be totally viable without taking eldritch blast or hex. They have other good spells, but not many as good as hex and eldritch blast.
I would possibly allow a warlock to get a free hex, not eldritch blast, because hex is used not only for eldritch blast, but for hexblades and other damaging spells, and I do find it as essential to the Warlock class as Hunter's Mark is to the ranger.
It is not really a question of NEED as far as eldritch blast. Its just.. why wouldnt you?
If you go RougeLock eldritch blast is not a thing that you would exactly need, and you wouldnt necessarily use. In fact you can just Bonus action Hex a target, then Booming blade as a rouge, get your attack, sneak attack, and thunder damage on top of moving the target.
Yes there are situations where you dont NEED eldritch blast, but the main point is. If you are going to be a spell slinging warlock, why would you not utilize the spell that has the most effective damage for your class consistently? Because other things are needed at that time? ok that is fine, but that doesn't mean you don't take it.
It is essentially like saying "Hey, Barbarian. I understand you are great with Greatswords, heavy weapons, 2 handed weapons. Lets give you a shotgun" It may not be optimal, but its your character choice. There are better options than a Shotgun for a Barbarian as far as ranged options go. Like hand axes or Javelins. But they might really want a shotgun for their character.
TLDR: Warlocks don't need eldritch blast, but warlocks can effectively use the spell more effectively than any other spell they can get access to, and it is a REALLY good spell, so why wouldn't you take it.
Hex is a very good warlock spell, and not just because of Eldritch Blast. Its actually a very good ability to use in social or stealthy situations. Cast it on target, penalize WIS, and they suffer to Perception and Insight checks. Penalize CHA if you're trying to do opposed Intimidate or Persuasion checks. (Huh. Both sets of skills start with I and P). Then, rest, and come back later.
Warlocks are especially nice outside of dungeons, because encounters (both social and combative) generally don't come in rapid succession, which means you can very easily blow your load whenever and not give two craps about saving spells for later in the day, since chances are you can get them back easily. Same thing for trap portions of dungeons- you usually have time for a short rest whenever you come upon something that needs to be Dispel Magic'd.
Another thing of note - warlocks and magic items. My warlock ran with a Pact Rod and Ring of Spell Storing, plus a magic robe (or bracers, depending on the level) for defense. You can cast Hex as a lower level spell instead of max level, and store five Hexes into the Ring if you so wish. Combine that with the recharge slot feature of the Pact Rod, and I actually had a fair amount of spell slots to use during a dungeon crawl. I tended to default to either Fireball (tiefling fiend warlock), or kept a Counterspell in my back pocket for fighting magic users. Hellish Rebuke is a worthless ability, but a free Darkness a day was always nice. I had a friend with a warlock went with a Staff of Fire instead. They got to use a lot more fireballs than I did in combat, and kept the spell slots for other spells.
Now, I don't know anyone who's taken the Invocations for once-a-day spells. For some mind-boggling reason I will never understand, the devs thought allowing them those spells to recharge on a short rest to be too strong. But no one I've seen ever bothers with them. Devil's Sight is big, Eldritch Blast enhancers are big, I see lots of people argue over if using Jump is a good Invocation or not, but all the exploring Invocations seem to be very game dependent - in games with lots of traps, I see and hear people investing far more in them - being able to use low level spells without spell slots is a huge boon. Oh! Eldritch Sight is actually a very popular choice too. Free Detect Magic, basically up all the time without stopping for a ritual or worrying about it clashing with other Concentration spells, is extremely handy. Eyes of the Ruin Keeper tends to be popular in games with other languages, especially with invisible familiar scouts; YMMV if the DM just defaults to Common with everything.
That's something lots of people tend to forget when talking about warlock spell slots too - Invocations often come with abilities that render the need for lower level spell slots null, so you only need to use the spell slots for level 3~5 magics.
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Also, anyone that says you need Eldritch Blast is flat out wrong. There are plenty of people who've played warlocks without ever taking that cantrip (and not being a Hexblade / Blade Pact). Not optimal, sure, but its not something locked into stone either. And the class still works fine.
I personally think Eldritch Blast should be removed from the Cantrips list entirely and just given to them as a class feature. Every “my race gives me a spell so I’m gonna Spell Sniper for EB” character in the game can suck it.
I personally think Eldritch Blast should be removed from the Cantrips list entirely and just given to them as a class feature. Every “my race gives me a spell so I’m gonna Spell Sniper for EB” character in the game can suck it.
So what you are saying is.. Make the warlocks have it as a unique thing that they rely on and only them can utilize and have as a crutch and are tied to no matter the subclass (save for hexblade) and every other class that used to go into it to get something (like a bard) for some damage contribution are now at a loss. As opposed to the current system where EB is very good alone, but significantly better because of invocations.
To me it sounds like you just dont like EB as a spell in general. it has nothing to do with warlocks utilize it mostly because its just a really well made spell.
I'm sorry, Eldritch blast being good does not mean it is "really well made". It is powerful, yes. I personally do think it is a well made spell for the WARLOCK. It is balanced for the warlock. But equating power level to how well something is designed is a really really bad idea.
I've recently finished playing a Hexblade up to 20th level, and stopped using Hex at about level 4. EB was used maybe every other session, and usually only once per combat, so I could use my movement to get into melee range. I didn't take Agonizing Blurb until maybe level 13 or 14? I focused on Hexblade's Curse, for no slot usage, and saved slots for Smites, Dispels, and AoE damage.
I'm getting ready to play a PadLock, and I don't think I'll even take EB...
The reason Warlocks don't get Eldritch Blast automatically is the same reason Artificers don't get Mending automatically. They are both cantrips that overall are very very commonly chosen as a member of that class, but aren't required for the class overall to function.
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I personally think Eldritch Blast should be removed from the Cantrips list entirely and just given to them as a class feature. Every “my race gives me a spell so I’m gonna Spell Sniper for EB” character in the game can suck it.
So what you are saying is.. Make the warlocks have it as a unique thing that they rely on and only them can utilize and have as a crutch and are tied to no matter the subclass (save for hexblade) and every other class that used to go into it to get something (like a bard) for some damage contribution are now at a loss. As opposed to the current system where EB is very good alone, but significantly better because of invocations.
To me it sounds like you just dont like EB as a spell in general. it has nothing to do with warlocks utilize it mostly because its just a really well made spell.
No, I’m saying that non-Warlock characters should HAVE to take a level of Warlock to gain access to EB, that neither Magic Initiate nor Spell Sniper should ever grant access to EB, that Warlocks should get EB wit hour having to dedicate one of their scant Cantrip slots to get it.
If a Bard wants EB, they can take a level of Warlock. As it stands, every Aasimar, Drow, High Elf, Eladrin, Firbolg, Genasi, Tiefling, Triton, Yuan-Ti, and any character with a Dragon Mark can pick it up even if it makes no sense for their character. It’s crap.
The reason Warlocks don't get Eldritch Blast automatically is the same reason Artificers don't get Mending automatically. They are both cantrips that overall are very very commonly chosen as a member of that class, but aren't required for the class overall to function.
You mean like Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon Proficiencies aren’t required for Fighters to overall function?
The reason Warlocks don't get Eldritch Blast automatically is the same reason Artificers don't get Mending automatically. They are both cantrips that overall are very very commonly chosen as a member of that class, but aren't required for the class overall to function.
You mean like Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon Proficiencies aren’t required for Fighters to overall function?
No, because those are given to the class because every master of martial weapons will be trained in every weapon and every type of armor. This is different. You have to learn a cantrip, it isn't something that you just automatically get for being a certain class. Most features and classes that allow you to get a cantrip gives you a choice, not just a certain cantrip to everyone.
A better analogy is that every fighter has proficiency in a Battleaxe, but whether or not they choose to use one is up to them. Cantrips and spells are the same way. Every warlock is proficient in Hex, but whether or not they choose to take that "weapon" is up to them.
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I personally think Eldritch Blast should be removed from the Cantrips list entirely and just given to them as a class feature. Every “my race gives me a spell so I’m gonna Spell Sniper for EB” character in the game can suck it.
So what you are saying is.. Make the warlocks have it as a unique thing that they rely on and only them can utilize and have as a crutch and are tied to no matter the subclass (save for hexblade) and every other class that used to go into it to get something (like a bard) for some damage contribution are now at a loss. As opposed to the current system where EB is very good alone, but significantly better because of invocations.
To me it sounds like you just dont like EB as a spell in general. it has nothing to do with warlocks utilize it mostly because its just a really well made spell.
No, I’m saying that non-Warlock characters should HAVE to take a level of Warlock to gain access to EB, that neither Magic Initiate nor Spell Sniper should ever grant access to EB, that Warlocks should get EB wit hour having to dedicate one of their scant Cantrip slots to get it.
If a Bard wants EB, they can take a level of Warlock. As it stands, every Aasimar, Drow, High Elf, Eladrin, Firbolg, Genasi, Tiefling, Triton, Yuan-Ti, and any character with a Dragon Mark can pick it up even if it makes no sense for their character. It’s crap.
Like i said, the way it appears is you have more of a problem with the Spell EB rather than warlocks Relying on it so heavily. So you are saying since they do use it so much, force other people to become warlocks too. A spell is a Spell is a spell. It does not matter if you get it for free by being a warlock, or if you pick it as a cantrip. It is a SPELL. Meaning anyone still would get access to it via magic initiate.
You want to make it an exclusive function like wildshape for a druid? Ok well, theres drawbacks to that, and you severely weakened Warlock now because of it. Because you made it a very integral part of their Kit, and if they dont use it then its a waste similar to that of features that are going on in Base ranger at the moment.
There is a reason why Warlocks are the only class to UPGRADE EB, its because that is part of their thing. They get a invocation, a gift from their Patron empowering different things, one of those things is a very simple spell to make it stronger. Do other classes get those options? No they don't. Only warlock does.
Like i stated earlier.. I see your problem as more an issue with the Cantrip Eldritch Blast rather than figuring something out for warlock to do that's balanced and fair for everyone else.
Like i said, the way it appears is you have more of a problem with the Spell EB rather than warlocks Relying on it so heavily. So you are saying since they do use it so much, force other people to become warlocks too. A spell is a Spell is a spell. It does not matter if you get it for free by being a warlock, or if you pick it as a cantrip. It is a SPELL. Meaning anyone still would get access to it via magic initiate.
You want to make it an exclusive function like wildshape for a druid? Ok well, theres drawbacks to that, and you severely weakened Warlock now because of it. Because you made it a very integral part of their Kit, and if they dont use it then its a waste similar to that of features that are going on in Base ranger at the moment.
There is a reason why Warlocks are the only class to UPGRADE EB, its because that is part of their thing. They get a invocation, a gift from their Patron empowering different things, one of those things is a very simple spell to make it stronger. Do other classes get those options? No they don't. Only warlock does.
Like i stated earlier.. I see your problem as more an issue with the Cantrip Eldritch Blast rather than figuring something out for warlock to do that's balanced and fair for everyone else.
Okay, let’s dissect this.
1) If it becomes a class feature instead of a spell, then it stops being a spell, so while a spell is a spell is a spell, EB would no longer be a spell, meaning nobody would have access to it via magic initiate.
2) Gaining EB as a class feature, thereby freeing up 1 sorely needed Cantrip Known weakens the Warlock? That’s like saying giving them free cream and sugar weakens Starbucks’ customers. I honestly don’t even know how to respond to that. Does automatically giving Rogues Sneak Attack make them weaker? Does automatically including Rage make Barbarians weaker? Does automatically giving Monk’s Martial Arts make them weaker? Let Eldritch Blast be the Warlocks’ “thing.” It was clearly intended to be, since the Warlock’s is the only spell list upon which it appears.
3) The reason are the only class able to upgrade EB, is because outside of that, nobody can upgrade their Cantrips. The reason this one-and-only class can upgrade that one-and-only Cantrip is because EB is already a “very integral part of their Kit” as part of the class by design. Can you make a Warlock and not take EB? Sure. But also there goes all purpose to almost a 1/2 dozen Invocations. Can you make a fighter who only uses simple weapons? Sure. What percentage of players have though?
4) Suggesting that EB should be a special thing just for Warlocks, a thing that not every character with access to Light and an ASI can copy poorly, that convinces you that I hate the spell? I don’t hate EB, I hate that everybody and their mother tries to bite off Warlocks‘ style like wannabes. They wannabe a Warlock that bad, let ‘em spend the level. Don’t wanna spend that level and slow down other character progressions? Then feel free to take any one of the myriad other DD Cantrips, there are plenty to choose from after all.
The only issue I have with EB is that it is so often abused. I have a Variant Human Trickery Cleric in the campaign I DM because the player wanted EB so bad that it defined that player’s entire choice of character race just so he could take Spell Sniper, even though it makes absolutely no sense for the character. Not one single player in existence goes Variant Human + Spell Sniper and takes, say, Produce Flame (the Druids only Cantrip), or any other spell for that matter, just EB. If they do take a different spell, it’s only because that character already has EB. None of that however has any relevance to the topic at hand however.
I want the Warlock to feel more special. I want them to feel as useful as all the full casters get to feel. Instead, it feels like a Warlocks are the other children’s handicapable classmates, and when they got a sweet ass wheelchair with spinners and everything, all the other kids had to go out and get one too, even though they don’t need one!!!
It sounds to me like your problem with my suggestion is that it would prevent you from getting EB for all your characters without having to take levels in Warlock.
Ye know what strikes me as an interesting (if utterly impossible) idea? Given how polarizing Eldritch Blast is and how ridiculously overpowered a full-up Blastlock is compared to other warlock builds?
Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon. Like Blade, Chain, or Tome. Call it Pact of the Flame or some such, and by default it grants you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast as a non-spell spell attack action.
Think about it. Agonizing Doink is more than powerful enough to compete with Tome in and of itself, and everybody in this thread as well as the hexblade thread in Homebrew already agrees it far outstrips Blade and Chain in terms of sheer combat potency. Make the thing a Pact Boon, turn it into a spell attack but without the 'Spell' designator, and make the other invocations for it require that boon.
If other classes want to steal Eldritch Blast, they need a minimum of three levels in Warlock, not just a onesie dip to be an ******* with. It stops people being stupid with MI or Spell Sniper, and it allows warlocks that want to do other things to do those other things without feeling bad. And since the base class is no longer balanced entirely around Agonizing Doink, any revisions where Blast is a Pact Boon rather than a basic cantrip can tweak up other aspects of the warlock. Also cleans up the nonsense with Sorlock gatling guns, since Eldritch Blast wouldn't classify as a cantrip anymore.
Seriously. Think about it. Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon, tweak up its various invocations to make them accord with what would be expected of a Pact Boon, and adjust the remaining base framework to give it options worth taking that aren't Eldritch Blast. It makes an alarming amount of sense once you let go of the idea that EB is somehow supposed to be the undisputed king of all cantripdom.
Ye know what strikes me as an interesting (if utterly impossible) idea? Given how polarizing Eldritch Blast is and how ridiculously overpowered a full-up Blastlock is compared to other warlock builds?
Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon. Like Blade, Chain, or Tome. Call it Pact of the Flame or some such, and by default it grants you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast as a non-spell spell attack action.
Think about it. Agonizing Doink is more than powerful enough to compete with Tome in and of itself, and everybody in this thread as well as the hexblade thread in Homebrew already agrees it far outstrips Blade and Chain in terms of sheer combat potency. Make the thing a Pact Boon, turn it into a spell attack but without the 'Spell' designator, and make the other invocations for it require that boon.
If other classes want to steal Eldritch Blast, they need a minimum of three levels in Warlock, not just a onesie dip to be an ******* with. It stops people being stupid with MI or Spell Sniper, and it allows warlocks that want to do other things to do those other things without feeling bad. And since the base class is no longer balanced entirely around Agonizing Doink, any revisions where Blast is a Pact Boon rather than a basic cantrip can tweak up other aspects of the warlock. Also cleans up the nonsense with Sorlock gatling guns, since Eldritch Blast wouldn't classify as a cantrip anymore.
Seriously. Think about it. Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon, tweak up its various invocations to make them accord with what would be expected of a Pact Boon, and adjust the remaining base framework to give it options worth taking that aren't Eldritch Blast. It makes an alarming amount of sense once you let go of the idea that EB is somehow supposed to be the undisputed king of all cantripdom.
That is an interesting idea, and I wish that it was like that, but I don't think Wizards is going to get rid of Eldritch Blast as a spell. Maybe a Pact Boon to make it even better than before, but I don't think they're going to do that.
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Ye know what strikes me as an interesting (if utterly impossible) idea? Given how polarizing Eldritch Blast is and how ridiculously overpowered a full-up Blastlock is compared to other warlock builds?
Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon. Like Blade, Chain, or Tome. Call it Pact of the Flame or some such, and by default it grants you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast as a non-spell spell attack action.
Think about it. Agonizing Doink is more than powerful enough to compete with Tome in and of itself, and everybody in this thread as well as the hexblade thread in Homebrew already agrees it far outstrips Blade and Chain in terms of sheer combat potency. Make the thing a Pact Boon, turn it into a spell attack but without the 'Spell' designator, and make the other invocations for it require that boon.
If other classes want to steal Eldritch Blast, they need a minimum of three levels in Warlock, not just a onesie dip to be an ******* with. It stops people being stupid with MI or Spell Sniper, and it allows warlocks that want to do other things to do those other things without feeling bad. And since the base class is no longer balanced entirely around Agonizing Doink, any revisions where Blast is a Pact Boon rather than a basic cantrip can tweak up other aspects of the warlock. Also cleans up the nonsense with Sorlock gatling guns, since Eldritch Blast wouldn't classify as a cantrip anymore.
Seriously. Think about it. Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon, tweak up its various invocations to make them accord with what would be expected of a Pact Boon, and adjust the remaining base framework to give it options worth taking that aren't Eldritch Blast. It makes an alarming amount of sense once you let go of the idea that EB is somehow supposed to be the undisputed king of all cantripdom.
Like i said, the way it appears is you have more of a problem with the Spell EB rather than warlocks Relying on it so heavily. So you are saying since they do use it so much, force other people to become warlocks too. A spell is a Spell is a spell. It does not matter if you get it for free by being a warlock, or if you pick it as a cantrip. It is a SPELL. Meaning anyone still would get access to it via magic initiate.
You want to make it an exclusive function like wildshape for a druid? Ok well, theres drawbacks to that, and you severely weakened Warlock now because of it. Because you made it a very integral part of their Kit, and if they dont use it then its a waste similar to that of features that are going on in Base ranger at the moment.
There is a reason why Warlocks are the only class to UPGRADE EB, its because that is part of their thing. They get a invocation, a gift from their Patron empowering different things, one of those things is a very simple spell to make it stronger. Do other classes get those options? No they don't. Only warlock does.
Like i stated earlier.. I see your problem as more an issue with the Cantrip Eldritch Blast rather than figuring something out for warlock to do that's balanced and fair for everyone else.
Okay, let’s dissect this.
1) If it becomes a class feature instead of a spell, then it stops being a spell, so while a spell is a spell is a spell, EB would no longer be a spell, meaning nobody would have access to it via magic initiate.
2) Gaining EB as a class feature, thereby freeing up 1 sorely needed Cantrip Known weakens the Warlock? That’s like saying giving them free cream and sugar weakens Starbucks’ customers. I honestly don’t even know how to respond to that. Does automatically giving Rogues Sneak Attack make them weaker? Does automatically including Rage make Barbarians weaker? Does automatically giving Monk’s Martial Arts make them weaker? Let Eldritch Blast be the Warlocks’ “thing.” It was clearly intended to be, since the Warlock’s is the only spell list upon which it appears.
3) The reason are the only class able to upgrade EB, is because outside of that, nobody can upgrade their Cantrips. The reason this one-and-only class can upgrade that one-and-only Cantrip is because EB is already a “very integral part of their Kit” as part of the class by design. Can you make a Warlock and not take EB? Sure. But also there goes all purpose to almost a 1/2 dozen Invocations. Can you make a fighter who only uses simple weapons? Sure. What percentage of players have though?
4) Suggesting that EB should be a special thing just for Warlocks, a thing that not every character with access to Light and an ASI can copy poorly, that convinces you that I hate the spell? I don’t hate EB, I hate that everybody and their mother tries to bite off Warlocks‘ style like wannabes. They wannabe a Warlock that bad, let ‘em spend the level. Don’t wanna spend that level and slow down other character progressions? Then feel free to take any one of the myriad other DD Cantrips, there are plenty to choose from after all.
The only issue I have with EB is that it is so often abused. I have a Variant Human Trickery Cleric in the campaign I DM because the player wanted EB so bad that it defined that player’s entire choice of character race just so he could take Spell Sniper, even though it makes absolutely no sense for the character. Not one single player in existence goes Variant Human + Spell Sniper and takes, say, Produce Flame (the Druids only Cantrip), or any other spell for that matter, just EB. If they do take a different spell, it’s only because that character already has EB. None of that however has any relevance to the topic at hand however.
I want the Warlock to feel more special. I want them to feel as useful as all the full casters get to feel. Instead, it feels like a Warlocks are the other children’s handicapable classmates, and when they got a sweet ass wheelchair with spinners and everything, all the other kids had to go out and get one too, even though they don’t need one!!!
It sounds to me like your problem with my suggestion is that it would prevent you from getting EB for all your characters without having to take levels in Warlock.
To be fair, Produce Flame isn't exactly eligible for Spell Sniper, depending on how the clause "You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll." is interpreted. Unlike other "attack spells", you can cast Produce Flame without making an attack. Therefore it doesn't require an attack roll and would be ineligible. If you focus on the part where the attack aspect does require an attack roll, it could be eligible then.
However, it could be very thematic to have a Tiefling Fiendlock eschew EB in favor of Fire Bolt, choose Flames of Phlegethos racial feat and then Produce Flame for Spell Sniper (assuming it was allowed) because spell sniper would boost Fire Bolt and Produce Flame would combo well with the third bullet of Flames of Phlegethos in moments where you wanted the fire wreathing you but you don't want to make an attack.
To be fair, Produce Flame isn't exactly eligible for Spell Sniper, depending on how the clause "You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll." is interpreted. Unlike other "attack spells", you can cast Produce Flame without making an attack. Therefore it doesn't require an attack roll and would be ineligible. If you focus on the part where the attack aspect does require an attack roll, it could be eligible then.
However, it could be very thematic to have a Tiefling Fiendlock eschew EB in favor of Fire Bolt, choose Flames of Phlegethos racial feat and then Produce Flame for Spell Sniper (assuming it was allowed) because spell sniper would boost Fire Bolt and Produce Flame would combo well with the third bullet of Flames of Phlegethos in moments where you wanted the fire wreathing you but you don't want to make an attack.
According to DDB’s options when taking that feat, it is eligible.
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I haven't. I was just thinking that it's too bad that Create Bonfire doesn't somehow officially generate bright light within a certain range. That would allow you to cast Create Bonfire up to 60 ft away from you (with the bonus of creating an obstacle for your enemies) to create bright light for a theoretical 30 ft and dim for another 30, plus have Flames of Phlegethos do the same until the end of your next turn (during which you could cast Firebolt or some other fire damage spell). You'd have to maintain concentration, but the fire damage that the melee attackers would take might keep them from attacking you, or at least punish them for doing so. Combined with Mirror Image, you could provide light for all of your allies at the cost of a second round spell cast in advance and a cantrip. You'd also be a natural target for a while, but having either Fiendish Vigor or picking off creatures to enable Dark One's Blessing (probably the better option) plus Mirror Image could give you a decent chance to off tank for your party for a moment, especially if your dex is decent and/or you have Armor of Shadows. Unfortunately, the strategy runs counter to the Devil's Sight/Darkness strategy. It doesn't do the outright damage that EB + AB does, but it's a strong option that is repeatable round after round with minimal support outside of the apex aspect of using Mirror Image. Having a 6th level Paladin hang out to increase saves, a Cleric or Paladin cast Warding Bond, going Chainlock to get Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (extra crispy bonus if your familiar is giving the rogue free sneak attacks without getting itself killed), and any number of other ways gain/maximize support from your party can really help your survival while distracting your foes from the real danger. That and the non combat opportunities with Flames of Phlegethos, Thaumaturgy, and [Tooltip Not Found] are all incredible.
Edit: added spell links and the word "option" for clarity.
So you're saying that warlocks don't need Hex, but they do need eldritch blast?
How does this make sense? Saying that a class depends on a single spell or two is very limiting. I have never seen a warlock without eldritch blast, but I have seen warlocks that don't use it that often (hexblades).
Also, if you take eldritch blast and don't take hex, you are doing something wrong as a warlock. One of the things that makes warlocks so good at dealing damage at later levels is the fact that they can Hex and then eldritch blast the same target multiple times in around with 14 (1d10 force + 1d6 necrotic + 5 damage) on each blast, and still knock people around. Hex lets you do tons of damage if you have a bunch of attacks.
Also, warlocks can be totally viable without taking eldritch blast or hex. They have other good spells, but not many as good as hex and eldritch blast.
I would possibly allow a warlock to get a free hex, not eldritch blast, because hex is used not only for eldritch blast, but for hexblades and other damaging spells, and I do find it as essential to the Warlock class as Hunter's Mark is to the ranger.
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Hex is a good warlock spell. Eldritch blast is a necessary warlock spell.
Hex increases your damage and makes you do a lot more.
Eldritch blast makes you able to deal damage regularly on par with a martial.
You can play a wizard and not learn fireball. You cannot play a wizard and not learn any damaging cantrips, yet still expect to do damage well.
It is not really a question of NEED as far as eldritch blast. Its just.. why wouldnt you?
If you go RougeLock eldritch blast is not a thing that you would exactly need, and you wouldnt necessarily use. In fact you can just Bonus action Hex a target, then Booming blade as a rouge, get your attack, sneak attack, and thunder damage on top of moving the target.
Yes there are situations where you dont NEED eldritch blast, but the main point is. If you are going to be a spell slinging warlock, why would you not utilize the spell that has the most effective damage for your class consistently? Because other things are needed at that time? ok that is fine, but that doesn't mean you don't take it.
It is essentially like saying "Hey, Barbarian. I understand you are great with Greatswords, heavy weapons, 2 handed weapons. Lets give you a shotgun" It may not be optimal, but its your character choice. There are better options than a Shotgun for a Barbarian as far as ranged options go. Like hand axes or Javelins. But they might really want a shotgun for their character.
TLDR: Warlocks don't need eldritch blast, but warlocks can effectively use the spell more effectively than any other spell they can get access to, and it is a REALLY good spell, so why wouldn't you take it.
Hex is a very good warlock spell, and not just because of Eldritch Blast. Its actually a very good ability to use in social or stealthy situations. Cast it on target, penalize WIS, and they suffer to Perception and Insight checks. Penalize CHA if you're trying to do opposed Intimidate or Persuasion checks. (Huh. Both sets of skills start with I and P). Then, rest, and come back later.
Warlocks are especially nice outside of dungeons, because encounters (both social and combative) generally don't come in rapid succession, which means you can very easily blow your load whenever and not give two craps about saving spells for later in the day, since chances are you can get them back easily. Same thing for trap portions of dungeons- you usually have time for a short rest whenever you come upon something that needs to be Dispel Magic'd.
Another thing of note - warlocks and magic items. My warlock ran with a Pact Rod and Ring of Spell Storing, plus a magic robe (or bracers, depending on the level) for defense. You can cast Hex as a lower level spell instead of max level, and store five Hexes into the Ring if you so wish. Combine that with the recharge slot feature of the Pact Rod, and I actually had a fair amount of spell slots to use during a dungeon crawl. I tended to default to either Fireball (tiefling fiend warlock), or kept a Counterspell in my back pocket for fighting magic users. Hellish Rebuke is a worthless ability, but a free Darkness a day was always nice. I had a friend with a warlock went with a Staff of Fire instead. They got to use a lot more fireballs than I did in combat, and kept the spell slots for other spells.
Now, I don't know anyone who's taken the Invocations for once-a-day spells. For some mind-boggling reason I will never understand, the devs thought allowing them those spells to recharge on a short rest to be too strong. But no one I've seen ever bothers with them. Devil's Sight is big, Eldritch Blast enhancers are big, I see lots of people argue over if using Jump is a good Invocation or not, but all the exploring Invocations seem to be very game dependent - in games with lots of traps, I see and hear people investing far more in them - being able to use low level spells without spell slots is a huge boon. Oh! Eldritch Sight is actually a very popular choice too. Free Detect Magic, basically up all the time without stopping for a ritual or worrying about it clashing with other Concentration spells, is extremely handy. Eyes of the Ruin Keeper tends to be popular in games with other languages, especially with invisible familiar scouts; YMMV if the DM just defaults to Common with everything.
That's something lots of people tend to forget when talking about warlock spell slots too - Invocations often come with abilities that render the need for lower level spell slots null, so you only need to use the spell slots for level 3~5 magics.
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Also, anyone that says you need Eldritch Blast is flat out wrong. There are plenty of people who've played warlocks without ever taking that cantrip (and not being a Hexblade / Blade Pact). Not optimal, sure, but its not something locked into stone either. And the class still works fine.
I personally think Eldritch Blast should be removed from the Cantrips list entirely and just given to them as a class feature. Every “my race gives me a spell so I’m gonna Spell Sniper for EB” character in the game can suck it.
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So what you are saying is.. Make the warlocks have it as a unique thing that they rely on and only them can utilize and have as a crutch and are tied to no matter the subclass (save for hexblade) and every other class that used to go into it to get something (like a bard) for some damage contribution are now at a loss. As opposed to the current system where EB is very good alone, but significantly better because of invocations.
To me it sounds like you just dont like EB as a spell in general. it has nothing to do with warlocks utilize it mostly because its just a really well made spell.
I'm sorry, Eldritch blast being good does not mean it is "really well made". It is powerful, yes. I personally do think it is a well made spell for the WARLOCK. It is balanced for the warlock. But equating power level to how well something is designed is a really really bad idea.
I've recently finished playing a Hexblade up to 20th level, and stopped using Hex at about level 4. EB was used maybe every other session, and usually only once per combat, so I could use my movement to get into melee range. I didn't take Agonizing Blurb until maybe level 13 or 14?
I focused on Hexblade's Curse, for no slot usage, and saved slots for Smites, Dispels, and AoE damage.
I'm getting ready to play a PadLock, and I don't think I'll even take EB...
The reason Warlocks don't get Eldritch Blast automatically is the same reason Artificers don't get Mending automatically. They are both cantrips that overall are very very commonly chosen as a member of that class, but aren't required for the class overall to function.
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No, I’m saying that non-Warlock characters should HAVE to take a level of Warlock to gain access to EB, that neither Magic Initiate nor Spell Sniper should ever grant access to EB, that Warlocks should get EB wit hour having to dedicate one of their scant Cantrip slots to get it.
If a Bard wants EB, they can take a level of Warlock. As it stands, every Aasimar, Drow, High Elf, Eladrin, Firbolg, Genasi, Tiefling, Triton, Yuan-Ti, and any character with a Dragon Mark can pick it up even if it makes no sense for their character. It’s crap.
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You mean like Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon Proficiencies aren’t required for Fighters to overall function?
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No, because those are given to the class because every master of martial weapons will be trained in every weapon and every type of armor. This is different. You have to learn a cantrip, it isn't something that you just automatically get for being a certain class. Most features and classes that allow you to get a cantrip gives you a choice, not just a certain cantrip to everyone.
A better analogy is that every fighter has proficiency in a Battleaxe, but whether or not they choose to use one is up to them. Cantrips and spells are the same way. Every warlock is proficient in Hex, but whether or not they choose to take that "weapon" is up to them.
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Like i said, the way it appears is you have more of a problem with the Spell EB rather than warlocks Relying on it so heavily. So you are saying since they do use it so much, force other people to become warlocks too. A spell is a Spell is a spell. It does not matter if you get it for free by being a warlock, or if you pick it as a cantrip. It is a SPELL. Meaning anyone still would get access to it via magic initiate.
You want to make it an exclusive function like wildshape for a druid? Ok well, theres drawbacks to that, and you severely weakened Warlock now because of it. Because you made it a very integral part of their Kit, and if they dont use it then its a waste similar to that of features that are going on in Base ranger at the moment.
There is a reason why Warlocks are the only class to UPGRADE EB, its because that is part of their thing. They get a invocation, a gift from their Patron empowering different things, one of those things is a very simple spell to make it stronger. Do other classes get those options? No they don't. Only warlock does.
Like i stated earlier.. I see your problem as more an issue with the Cantrip Eldritch Blast rather than figuring something out for warlock to do that's balanced and fair for everyone else.
Okay, let’s dissect this.
1) If it becomes a class feature instead of a spell, then it stops being a spell, so while a spell is a spell is a spell, EB would no longer be a spell, meaning nobody would have access to it via magic initiate.
2) Gaining EB as a class feature, thereby freeing up 1 sorely needed Cantrip Known weakens the Warlock? That’s like saying giving them free cream and sugar weakens Starbucks’ customers. I honestly don’t even know how to respond to that. Does automatically giving Rogues Sneak Attack make them weaker? Does automatically including Rage make Barbarians weaker? Does automatically giving Monk’s Martial Arts make them weaker? Let Eldritch Blast be the Warlocks’ “thing.” It was clearly intended to be, since the Warlock’s is the only spell list upon which it appears.
3) The reason are the only class able to upgrade EB, is because outside of that, nobody can upgrade their Cantrips. The reason this one-and-only class can upgrade that one-and-only Cantrip is because EB is already a “very integral part of their Kit” as part of the class by design. Can you make a Warlock and not take EB? Sure. But also there goes all purpose to almost a 1/2 dozen Invocations. Can you make a fighter who only uses simple weapons? Sure. What percentage of players have though?
4) Suggesting that EB should be a special thing just for Warlocks, a thing that not every character with access to Light and an ASI can copy poorly, that convinces you that I hate the spell? I don’t hate EB, I hate that everybody and their mother tries to bite off Warlocks‘ style like wannabes. They wannabe a Warlock that bad, let ‘em spend the level. Don’t wanna spend that level and slow down other character progressions? Then feel free to take any one of the myriad other DD Cantrips, there are plenty to choose from after all.
The only issue I have with EB is that it is so often abused. I have a Variant Human Trickery Cleric in the campaign I DM because the player wanted EB so bad that it defined that player’s entire choice of character race just so he could take Spell Sniper, even though it makes absolutely no sense for the character. Not one single player in existence goes Variant Human + Spell Sniper and takes, say, Produce Flame (the Druids only Cantrip), or any other spell for that matter, just EB. If they do take a different spell, it’s only because that character already has EB. None of that however has any relevance to the topic at hand however.
I want the Warlock to feel more special. I want them to feel as useful as all the full casters get to feel. Instead, it feels like a Warlocks are the other children’s handicapable classmates, and when they got a sweet ass wheelchair with spinners and everything, all the other kids had to go out and get one too, even though they don’t need one!!!
It sounds to me like your problem with my suggestion is that it would prevent you from getting EB for all your characters without having to take levels in Warlock.
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Ye know what strikes me as an interesting (if utterly impossible) idea? Given how polarizing Eldritch Blast is and how ridiculously overpowered a full-up Blastlock is compared to other warlock builds?
Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon. Like Blade, Chain, or Tome. Call it Pact of the Flame or some such, and by default it grants you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast as a non-spell spell attack action.
Think about it. Agonizing Doink is more than powerful enough to compete with Tome in and of itself, and everybody in this thread as well as the hexblade thread in Homebrew already agrees it far outstrips Blade and Chain in terms of sheer combat potency. Make the thing a Pact Boon, turn it into a spell attack but without the 'Spell' designator, and make the other invocations for it require that boon.
If other classes want to steal Eldritch Blast, they need a minimum of three levels in Warlock, not just a onesie dip to be an ******* with. It stops people being stupid with MI or Spell Sniper, and it allows warlocks that want to do other things to do those other things without feeling bad. And since the base class is no longer balanced entirely around Agonizing Doink, any revisions where Blast is a Pact Boon rather than a basic cantrip can tweak up other aspects of the warlock. Also cleans up the nonsense with Sorlock gatling guns, since Eldritch Blast wouldn't classify as a cantrip anymore.
Seriously. Think about it. Make Eldritch Blast a Pact Boon, tweak up its various invocations to make them accord with what would be expected of a Pact Boon, and adjust the remaining base framework to give it options worth taking that aren't Eldritch Blast. It makes an alarming amount of sense once you let go of the idea that EB is somehow supposed to be the undisputed king of all cantripdom.
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That is an interesting idea, and I wish that it was like that, but I don't think Wizards is going to get rid of Eldritch Blast as a spell. Maybe a Pact Boon to make it even better than before, but I don't think they're going to do that.
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To be fair, Produce Flame isn't exactly eligible for Spell Sniper, depending on how the clause "You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll." is interpreted. Unlike other "attack spells", you can cast Produce Flame without making an attack. Therefore it doesn't require an attack roll and would be ineligible. If you focus on the part where the attack aspect does require an attack roll, it could be eligible then.
However, it could be very thematic to have a Tiefling Fiendlock eschew EB in favor of Fire Bolt, choose Flames of Phlegethos racial feat and then Produce Flame for Spell Sniper (assuming it was allowed) because spell sniper would boost Fire Bolt and Produce Flame would combo well with the third bullet of Flames of Phlegethos in moments where you wanted the fire wreathing you but you don't want to make an attack.
According to DDB’s options when taking that feat, it is eligible.
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I haven't. I was just thinking that it's too bad that Create Bonfire doesn't somehow officially generate bright light within a certain range. That would allow you to cast Create Bonfire up to 60 ft away from you (with the bonus of creating an obstacle for your enemies) to create bright light for a theoretical 30 ft and dim for another 30, plus have Flames of Phlegethos do the same until the end of your next turn (during which you could cast Firebolt or some other fire damage spell). You'd have to maintain concentration, but the fire damage that the melee attackers would take might keep them from attacking you, or at least punish them for doing so. Combined with Mirror Image, you could provide light for all of your allies at the cost of a second round spell cast in advance and a cantrip. You'd also be a natural target for a while, but having either Fiendish Vigor or picking off creatures to enable Dark One's Blessing (probably the better option) plus Mirror Image could give you a decent chance to off tank for your party for a moment, especially if your dex is decent and/or you have Armor of Shadows. Unfortunately, the strategy runs counter to the Devil's Sight/Darkness strategy. It doesn't do the outright damage that EB + AB does, but it's a strong option that is repeatable round after round with minimal support outside of the apex aspect of using Mirror Image. Having a 6th level Paladin hang out to increase saves, a Cleric or Paladin cast Warding Bond, going Chainlock to get Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (extra crispy bonus if your familiar is giving the rogue free sneak attacks without getting itself killed), and any number of other ways gain/maximize support from your party can really help your survival while distracting your foes from the real danger. That and the non combat opportunities with Flames of Phlegethos, Thaumaturgy, and [Tooltip Not Found] are all incredible.
Edit: added spell links and the word "option" for clarity.