Lurker is a very flavorful option I agree. That is probably one of the best warlocks ever made. Exploding on death I don't think is something we have seen in 5e for players before. I also don't see how it must be played as an edgelord. Your undead form could be that of a vampire, grow pale and beautiful when you use it, yes it is a fear/necrotic damage subclass but that is something that undead use often. Genie's 2nd draft I would say is equal to this for interesting but for very different styles of play. The first draft of genie was kinda eh for me. I am also a huge fan of non-hexblade (I dislike how it is so much better than all other builds) bladelocks so this subclass is kinda made for people like me.
The bard subclass is hard for me to judge, the randomness of the effects is a bit discouraging, but you aren't getting a random one in the middle of combat often, you can roll it at the start of the day and plan around it after that. I like that it allows each of the effects to be stronger and makes it so you don't just use the same one every time, plus the scaling with dice is a cool mechanic. I do dislike that you are limited to divination or necromancy because there are a few other spells I think you should have access to (spirit guardians being the big one). But I do like how is scales with people and with prof bonus and gives competition to lore bards for getting magical secrets earlier. I think they should clarify the use of the 6th level spiritual focus ability, can I add that to my to hit? If I roll a bardic dice for something can I add it to that? Can I buff the save I make if the spell requires I make a save? What if it is aoe and hits me? It is a bit vague right now I feel. Mystical connection could also use some better wording I think, I missed the ability to roll your bardic dice without expending it (more or less saying you can choose what effect you get if you have some down time).
Overall, I really like the mechanics in both and the new theme of the bard (me and my dm were literally just homebrewing a bard subclass like this), the warlock theme, while old, is still very well done. I like how they are putting out UA updates almost to old warlock subclasses and diversifying them, this and the undying and the lurker in the deep and the great old one. Adding different play styles for the same patron (or for other classes, however you get your power) is something I think 5e could use. Making it so that having 2 of the same class can shine in different ways (while still getting their power from the same source), is wonderful.
Guys. Stop saying that the undead is stepping on undying toes.. The patron may or may not even be the same but even if they are the mechanics of the subclasses are SO different it doesnt matter what its called.
Undying is purely defensive and undead is purely offensive, even with healing and incorporeal. Even if undying was a good subclass this would still be welcomed. People were saying that GOO and lurker/Kraken were too similar only because both patrons (can) have tentacles. Stop it.
Death and grave cleric are basically the 'same class with the same diety" but fundamentally and definitely mechanically they are VERY different even if the dieties themselves coincide yet no one makes comments about those 2.
Personally I really, really like it definitely think its a top offensive subclass without a doubt and even in general.
The 8d10 eldritch blast is too much but i honestly think they meant 5d10 but should clarify either way.
Spiritual projection is interesting and can do neat stuff. Reminds me of the witch doctor spirit walk in Diablo 3 (especially with the demi-teleport). But maybe don't make it fully ethereal or transparent but semi-transparent? Invisible in dim light & darkness? Invisble if not moving? Something to maybe give it some scout utility.
Spell list is neither here or there. Could be better but not the worse.
Although my biggest comment and suggestion is to grant overcoming Necrotic resistance. You get all this necro damage buffs but if you're in an innistrad or ravenloft setting, like people are assuming or with other undead what good does that get you?? You're the product of a powerful lich.. Overpowering lesser undead is your thing. A lich will definitely take control of the lesser undead one way or another and overcoming resistance would be great. If you don't want to give it at level 6 with the necro buff then make it an improvement at 10 but I think it's definitely necessary and thematically appropriate too. I honestly don't even think its too OP either as there are a handful of other ways to reduce resistance.
(To add, besides being way too OP to override immunity it makes sense for a lich to teach their Warlock to overcome resistance in order to dominate lesser undead but refuse to teach to overcome immunity to make sure that the patron is always one step above the Warlock)
The Undying and Undead patrons are definitely different. The Undying applies to anything that doesn't die (from immortal wizards, to demon lords like Orcus, to phoenixes, to undead), and the Undead just applies to, well, undead.
Also, it should be clear to most people that the Undead warlock is many times better than the Undying, and I think we should have both in the game (with the Undying getting fixes if possible).
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I was just going over this and noticed a bit of wording, while it doesn't limit the extra damage to one time per spell, the language does limit it to one time per target.
"While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes."
So you would only get the full 8d10 impact, you would need four different targets.
I was just going over this and noticed a bit of wording, while it doesn't limit the extra damage to one time per spell, the language does limit it to one time per target.
"While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes."
So you would only get the full 8d10 impact, you would need four different targets.
Disagree: Even on one target there are 4 distinct attacks, so you determine damage 4 separate times and hence add the extra d10 each time.
Kinda interesting stuff to consider, although the mega eldritch blast I would give an additional damage dice on one of the attacks. Still pretty nifty.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Kinda interesting stuff to consider, although the mega eldritch blast I would give an additional damage dice on one of the attacks. Still pretty nifty.
It would be balanced if it was that, but that's not what it says RAW.
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Kinda interesting stuff to consider, although the mega eldritch blast I would give an additional damage dice on one of the attacks. Still pretty nifty.
It would be balanced if it was that, but that's not what it says RAW.
But who in their right mind would allow that.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I dislike the bard greatly. I don't like the flavor or the implemention. I think it would be better served on a class other than the bard. In fact the only thing I like about this subclass is getting guidance as a bard cantrip. Spiritual focus? Meh, whatevs. Tales from beyond, I hate hate hate the mechanics. Spirit Session; it's ok. It could be useful. I'm not keen on the spell schools, but they at least are thematically appropriate. Mystical Connection is a nice mechanic, but I loathe Tales from Beyond too much to appreciate it.
This subclass would feel better implemented as a warlock, sorcerer, wizard or cleric, probably sorcerer "feels" best using metamagic for Tales from Beyond. Bard is imo, the /worst/ pick for this.
The warlock at least looks interesting, if not something that's my cup of tea. The undead spells are imo, pretty meh. Nothing there to get my attention. Form of dread looks useful, although it would conflict with armor of agathys. Grave touched, a ribbon on the food and drink is pretty whatever to me, being able to replace your damage type from an attack with necrotic is pretty nice. Boosting your damage with Form of Dread is really nice. Mortal husk is cool. The DM can learn all about how much fun it is to fight things that explode when you kill it....then you can drink a heal potion since you're not dead or unconscious afterall. Sucks that you hit your friends, but it's not like you /intended/ to die and explode. I like spirit projection. That makes for a superior scout. Fun, flavorful, and thematic. This thing looks tailor made for bladelocks who want to get up close and personal in kind of a witch-king of angmar kind of way. I doubt I'd play one, but I like what they are trying to do.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Kinda interesting stuff to consider, although the mega eldritch blast I would give an additional damage dice on one of the attacks. Still pretty nifty.
You have to ask how it interacts with hex too.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I dislike the bard greatly. I don't like the flavor or the implemention. I think it would be better served on a class other than the bard. In fact the only thing I like about this subclass is getting guidance as a bard cantrip. Spiritual focus? Meh, whatevs. Tales from beyond, I hate hate hate the mechanics. Spirit Session; it's ok. It could be useful. I'm not keen on the spell schools, but they at least are thematically appropriate. Mystical Connection is a nice mechanic, but I loathe Tales from Beyond too much to appreciate it.
This subclass would feel better implemented as a warlock, sorcerer, wizard or cleric, probably sorcerer "feels" best using metamagic for Tales from Beyond. Bard is imo, the /worst/ pick for this.
I must say that this bard has grown on me. At first I thought it would fit a Warlock better too, but the more I consider it, the more I like the Bard. It’s very “Madam Somethingorother” seance and fortune telling theme works I think. And I like Tales from Beyond. It’s a brand new mechanic for 5e which I am generally in favor of, and the table feels like 2e which rubs my nostalgia the right way.
I played a lot of 2e. I do not miss the game slowing down by rolling on tables even a little.
I still think the concept works better as a sorcerer, even if you insist on keeping rolling on tables. None of this says "bard" to me. I agree with the madam seance thing, I just don't feel like that screams bard to me.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I get it. Bards are not always musicians, they are storytellers too. I could definitely conceptualize Gandalf as a Bard. He told a wackton of stories, was kinda his thing. The IRL person who inspired the tales of Merlin was a “bard.” I can totally see “Madam Seance” being a bard. It would even fit the stereotype of the brightly colored scarves and bangles jewelry etc. I mean, many Bards often tell tales of the departed. I guess I just have a broader definition of bard. (It helps that I have a tin ear, I play my bard as a non-musician anyway.)
I can see both Merlin and Gandalf as bards. Nordic skalds are certainly a bard which I wish were represented better than by what we presently have and they are not musicians.
I'm just not seeing a huckster fortune teller as a bard. When I've sat down to try and make one before, warlock is usually what I'd reach for. The mechanics they describe look like a good fit for a sorcerer. Thematically, cleric works for me although I'm not a huge fan. I desperately /want/ a spirit based druid/shaman. Bard? Doesn't work for me. I hope they change that up.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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Lurker is a very flavorful option I agree. That is probably one of the best warlocks ever made. Exploding on death I don't think is something we have seen in 5e for players before. I also don't see how it must be played as an edgelord. Your undead form could be that of a vampire, grow pale and beautiful when you use it, yes it is a fear/necrotic damage subclass but that is something that undead use often. Genie's 2nd draft I would say is equal to this for interesting but for very different styles of play. The first draft of genie was kinda eh for me. I am also a huge fan of non-hexblade (I dislike how it is so much better than all other builds) bladelocks so this subclass is kinda made for people like me.
The bard subclass is hard for me to judge, the randomness of the effects is a bit discouraging, but you aren't getting a random one in the middle of combat often, you can roll it at the start of the day and plan around it after that. I like that it allows each of the effects to be stronger and makes it so you don't just use the same one every time, plus the scaling with dice is a cool mechanic. I do dislike that you are limited to divination or necromancy because there are a few other spells I think you should have access to (spirit guardians being the big one). But I do like how is scales with people and with prof bonus and gives competition to lore bards for getting magical secrets earlier. I think they should clarify the use of the 6th level spiritual focus ability, can I add that to my to hit? If I roll a bardic dice for something can I add it to that? Can I buff the save I make if the spell requires I make a save? What if it is aoe and hits me? It is a bit vague right now I feel. Mystical connection could also use some better wording I think, I missed the ability to roll your bardic dice without expending it (more or less saying you can choose what effect you get if you have some down time).
Overall, I really like the mechanics in both and the new theme of the bard (me and my dm were literally just homebrewing a bard subclass like this), the warlock theme, while old, is still very well done. I like how they are putting out UA updates almost to old warlock subclasses and diversifying them, this and the undying and the lurker in the deep and the great old one. Adding different play styles for the same patron (or for other classes, however you get your power) is something I think 5e could use. Making it so that having 2 of the same class can shine in different ways (while still getting their power from the same source), is wonderful.
Which one, and can you clarify, please?
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Guys. Stop saying that the undead is stepping on undying toes.. The patron may or may not even be the same but even if they are the mechanics of the subclasses are SO different it doesnt matter what its called.
Undying is purely defensive and undead is purely offensive, even with healing and incorporeal. Even if undying was a good subclass this would still be welcomed. People were saying that GOO and lurker/Kraken were too similar only because both patrons (can) have tentacles. Stop it.
Death and grave cleric are basically the 'same class with the same diety" but fundamentally and definitely mechanically they are VERY different even if the dieties themselves coincide yet no one makes comments about those 2.
Personally I really, really like it definitely think its a top offensive subclass without a doubt and even in general.
The 8d10 eldritch blast is too much but i honestly think they meant 5d10 but should clarify either way.
Spiritual projection is interesting and can do neat stuff. Reminds me of the witch doctor spirit walk in Diablo 3 (especially with the demi-teleport). But maybe don't make it fully ethereal or transparent but semi-transparent? Invisible in dim light & darkness? Invisble if not moving? Something to maybe give it some scout utility.
Spell list is neither here or there. Could be better but not the worse.
Although my biggest comment and suggestion is to grant overcoming Necrotic resistance. You get all this necro damage buffs but if you're in an innistrad or ravenloft setting, like people are assuming or with other undead what good does that get you?? You're the product of a powerful lich.. Overpowering lesser undead is your thing. A lich will definitely take control of the lesser undead one way or another and overcoming resistance would be great. If you don't want to give it at level 6 with the necro buff then make it an improvement at 10 but I think it's definitely necessary and thematically appropriate too. I honestly don't even think its too OP either as there are a handful of other ways to reduce resistance.
(To add, besides being way too OP to override immunity it makes sense for a lich to teach their Warlock to overcome resistance in order to dominate lesser undead but refuse to teach to overcome immunity to make sure that the patron is always one step above the Warlock)
The Undying and Undead patrons are definitely different. The Undying applies to anything that doesn't die (from immortal wizards, to demon lords like Orcus, to phoenixes, to undead), and the Undead just applies to, well, undead.
Also, it should be clear to most people that the Undead warlock is many times better than the Undying, and I think we should have both in the game (with the Undying getting fixes if possible).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I was just going over this and noticed a bit of wording, while it doesn't limit the extra damage to one time per spell, the language does limit it to one time per target.
"While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes."
So you would only get the full 8d10 impact, you would need four different targets.
Disagree: Even on one target there are 4 distinct attacks, so you determine damage 4 separate times and hence add the extra d10 each time.
I'm ready to make my half orc undead warlock that has to be knocked out three times to be knocked out. I'll call it the Chumbawumba build.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
😂😂
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Kinda interesting stuff to consider, although the mega eldritch blast I would give an additional damage dice on one of the attacks. Still pretty nifty.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
It would be balanced if it was that, but that's not what it says RAW.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I am SO excited about College of Spirits! I'm going to have such a fun time with that!
I'm so making a Dragonborn Undead Warlock sworn to a DracoLych when this becomes available!
OR combine the two, Bard of Spirits and Undead Warlock, and have the Bard's Skull focus on a staff for the Warlock to cast from.
♫Its a dead man's party! Who could ask for more? Everybody's coming; leave your body at the door! Leave your body and soul at the door!♫
But who in their right mind would allow that.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I dislike the bard greatly. I don't like the flavor or the implemention. I think it would be better served on a class other than the bard. In fact the only thing I like about this subclass is getting guidance as a bard cantrip. Spiritual focus? Meh, whatevs. Tales from beyond, I hate hate hate the mechanics. Spirit Session; it's ok. It could be useful. I'm not keen on the spell schools, but they at least are thematically appropriate. Mystical Connection is a nice mechanic, but I loathe Tales from Beyond too much to appreciate it.
This subclass would feel better implemented as a warlock, sorcerer, wizard or cleric, probably sorcerer "feels" best using metamagic for Tales from Beyond. Bard is imo, the /worst/ pick for this.
The warlock at least looks interesting, if not something that's my cup of tea. The undead spells are imo, pretty meh. Nothing there to get my attention. Form of dread looks useful, although it would conflict with armor of agathys. Grave touched, a ribbon on the food and drink is pretty whatever to me, being able to replace your damage type from an attack with necrotic is pretty nice. Boosting your damage with Form of Dread is really nice. Mortal husk is cool. The DM can learn all about how much fun it is to fight things that explode when you kill it....then you can drink a heal potion since you're not dead or unconscious afterall. Sucks that you hit your friends, but it's not like you /intended/ to die and explode. I like spirit projection. That makes for a superior scout. Fun, flavorful, and thematic. This thing looks tailor made for bladelocks who want to get up close and personal in kind of a witch-king of angmar kind of way. I doubt I'd play one, but I like what they are trying to do.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You have to ask how it interacts with hex too.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I must say that this bard has grown on me. At first I thought it would fit a Warlock better too, but the more I consider it, the more I like the Bard. It’s very “Madam Somethingorother” seance and fortune telling theme works I think. And I like Tales from Beyond. It’s a brand new mechanic for 5e which I am generally in favor of, and the table feels like 2e which rubs my nostalgia the right way.
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I played a lot of 2e. I do not miss the game slowing down by rolling on tables even a little.
I still think the concept works better as a sorcerer, even if you insist on keeping rolling on tables. None of this says "bard" to me. I agree with the madam seance thing, I just don't feel like that screams bard to me.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I get it. Bards are not always musicians, they are storytellers too. I could definitely conceptualize Gandalf as a Bard. He told a wackton of stories, was kinda his thing. The IRL person who inspired the tales of Merlin was a “bard.” I can totally see “Madam Seance” being a bard. It would even fit the stereotype of the brightly colored scarves and bangles jewelry etc. I mean, many Bards often tell tales of the departed. I guess I just have a broader definition of bard. (It helps that I have a tin ear, I play my bard as a non-musician anyway.)
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I can see both Merlin and Gandalf as bards. Nordic skalds are certainly a bard which I wish were represented better than by what we presently have and they are not musicians.
I'm just not seeing a huckster fortune teller as a bard. When I've sat down to try and make one before, warlock is usually what I'd reach for. The mechanics they describe look like a good fit for a sorcerer. Thematically, cleric works for me although I'm not a huge fan. I desperately /want/ a spirit based druid/shaman. Bard? Doesn't work for me. I hope they change that up.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha