So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way. Now, I get the Conan thing. He climbed the wall and that's a cool visual. I'm not saying that if your strong you shouldn't be able to climb, but definitely you should not be able to climb better than an 18 agility rogue (same with JUMP). Why doesn't the skill have a dual Strength or Dexterity mod? Intimidation gives you the option to use Strength, and I would think that a negative modifier in Charisma would be a PLUS to intimidation in combination with a Strength Intimidation check. "The Teifling death knight grabs the kobold by the neck and slowly begins to squeeze, his horrid scars (8 charisma), repulsive features and glowing fire flamed eyes (Thaumaturgy) burning with hate as he says "Tell me where the hidden entrance is"...
How do you deal with this, particularly if your DM chooses to follow the rules because "that's the rules".
Normally, your proficiency in a skill applies only to a specific kind of ability check. Proficiency in Athletics, for example, usually applies to Strength checks. In some situations, though, your proficiency might reasonably apply to a different kind of check. In such cases, the DM might ask for a check using an unusual combination of ability and skill, or you might ask your DM if you can apply a proficiency to a different check. For example, if you have to swim from an offshore island to the mainland, your DM might call for a Constitution check to see if you have the stamina to make it that far. In this case, your DM might allow you to apply your proficiency in Athletics and ask for a Constitution (Athletics) check. So if you're proficient in Athletics, you apply your proficiency bonus to the Constitution check just as you would normally do for a Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, when your half-‐‑orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (Intimidation) check, even though Intimidation is normally associated with Charisma.
Intimidation does NOT give you the option to use Str. The DM might ask for a Str (Intimidation) check, but that is not a given. It has to make sense to them. And the same goes for absolutely everything. Interrogations could use any combo of Int/Cha and Persuasion/Investigation, for instance. It just depends on what you're trying to find out and how. Cha (Persuasion) is arguably the standard option, but the DM can go with something else or even give you a choice.
That aside, good climbers are strong for their build as well. The rules are a simplified approximation, they don't try to take every little thing into account because that'd bog the game down too much. That's why there's one standard ability/skill combo, which can be changed if the DM sees fit..
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So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing...I'm not saying that if your strong you shouldn't be able to climb, but definitely you should not be able to climb better than an 18 agility rogue (same with JUMP).
This is what features like Expertise and Second-Story Work are for.
Why doesn't the skill have a dual Strength or Dexterity mod?
Because "good enough" rules that are easy to remember work better for most people than more complicated rules. And while different people may have different thresholds for complexity the game designers still have to draw the line somewhere because this is a tabletop game run by humans, not a video game that can perform arbitrarily complicated physics simulations in the blink of an eye.
How do you deal with this, particularly if your DM chooses to follow the rules because "that's the rules".
If you're unhappy with your options for building the character you want and your DM isn't willing to find a compromise you might be better off finding a new DM or, if that's not an option, simply accepting the limitation and finding a different character concept. This is more a people problem than a rules problem.
It is ntirely up to the DM what ability check to use for an activity and whether it is appropriate to add a skill proficiency. If you decribe you are gong to climb uin a particular way then the DM might decide that an athletics (dex) or acrobatics role is appropriate, they may also increase the DC. Climbing a cliff the "normal" way might be an athletics with DC 12 but trying to parkour up it might be an accrobatics DC 18.
I find your examples interesting however because Dexterity al already the most useful ability in the game. It is good to compare it with strength (as you do) becasue martial characters can choose whether to be strength based or dex based.
Athletics is a useful skill but probably less so than stealth, athletics is the only skill that is usually a strength skill, dexteriaty also has accrobatics (which is an alternatice to athletics to excape grapples) and slight of hand. Dexterity the most common saving throw, is used for AC for all but players with heavy armor and initiative. Strength is one of the less frequent saving throws. A strength requirement is needed for heavy armor but this is more a restriction to heavy armor than a use of strength. A cleric having wisdom as their primary stat will struggle to get strength high enough to wear plate and if they go to to strength 15 they are still +2 so they are better off having a +2 dex to mmax out medium armor for only 1AC less and the option to switych to a breast plate if stealth is required. A fighter using a bow needs high dex to attack and the benefits of the extra AC (accepting the stealth cost) are very small compared with the benefits of having con or even wisdom (for saves and perception) as a secondary stat. The result is that it is extremely rare to wear heavy armor and not attack with strength.
As a rogue you are lucky in that you only really need high dex. Decent con is nice especially if you are melee but you have the option to make strength a third stat if athlecitic is important to you. Pity the poor monk who needs high dex and wisdom for their attacks as well as high con (not only are they forced to be melee but disengaging as a bonus action requires use of a limited resource. This gives means if you want a positive to any other ability you are sacrificing your key stats (my monk was created with point buy and has 8 in Str, Int and Cha)
I'll be honest.. Whenever I think about a possible sneaky dex-type character, I often also imagine them being great at climbing due do them being nimble and all. .I think It's a natural extension of the fantasy. So yea, it is honestly a lil frustrating if you have the type of DM who doesn't really use other than the normal attribute for skill checks...
Just in terms of class fantasies of what certain attributes lend themselves to, Often it's the dex character who you'd expert to see climbing around, and not the hulking barbarian or the full plate fighter... But really.. I can understand it from the perspective of Dex already being super powerful.
Obviously expertise/prof is a decent workaround for sure.. But Perhaps look into adventuring gear to help you out. The climber's kit doesn't exactly help you.. well.. climb.. But I does anchor you securely once you've reached a useful spot.. There's also the good old rope and grappling hook.. If you have access to an uncommon magical item, I believe a rope of climbing is super useful.
If you think about it, typically your master thief will have a lot of gadgets and stuff, so why not lean into that aspect? If you make enough of an effort, perhaps you'll even convince your DM to help you out here and there.
So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way.
Climbers might not be big and bulky, but they are strong. Think about a gymnast using rings or parallell bars. No amount of dexterity allows you to use your fingertips to pull up your entire body weight.
Yes, Conan is very strong, but so is Batman. Also martial artists (anyone played by Bruce Lee, for example).
So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way. Now, I get the Conan thing. He climbed the wall and that's a cool visual. I'm not saying that if your strong you shouldn't be able to climb, but definitely you should not be able to climb better than an 18 agility rogue (same with JUMP). Why doesn't the skill have a dual Strength or Dexterity mod? Intimidation gives you the option to use Strength, and I would think that a negative modifier in Charisma would be a PLUS to intimidation in combination with a Strength Intimidation check. "The Teifling death knight grabs the kobold by the neck and slowly begins to squeeze, his horrid scars (8 charisma), repulsive features and glowing fire flamed eyes (Thaumaturgy) burning with hate as he says "Tell me where the hidden entrance is"...
How do you deal with this, particularly if your DM chooses to follow the rules because "that's the rules".
Ability scores are independent of appearance. Someone with 18 strength might be a hulking, muscle-bound warrior, or they might be a thin, wiry individual. Likewise, charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one, it's not about your appearance as much as it's about the way you carry yourself and the ability to project confidence when you speak.
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So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way.
Climbers might not be big and bulky, but they are strong. Think about a gymnast using rings or parallell bars. No amount of dexterity allows you to use your fingertips to pull up your entire body weight.
Yes, Conan is very strong, but so is Batman. Also martial artists (anyone played by Bruce Lee, for example).
Hmm but isn't dex also a reflection of your physical body though? I'd argue that a high dex character also has well trained muscles, just not the ones delivering raw strength and power. Monks are martials artists and rely on dex, so do acrobatics.
Being able to expertly balance, spring into action and accurately stab with a rapier, all rely on being atleast somewhat physically fit. I've kinda always viewed dex as being the sort of muscles a typical fantasy ninja would have, to be cliche.
I'm not saying strength shouldn't be involved with climbing, but bruce lee surely had both "strength" muscles" and "dex" muscles imo.
Want to be a climber rogue? Pick Athletics as one of your proficiencies. Want to be excellent at it? Choose it for Expertise. Over time, your ST score will matter relatively less and less.
So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way.
Climbers might not be big and bulky, but they are strong. Think about a gymnast using rings or parallell bars. No amount of dexterity allows you to use your fingertips to pull up your entire body weight.
Yes, Conan is very strong, but so is Batman. Also martial artists (anyone played by Bruce Lee, for example).
Hmm but isn't dex also a reflection of your physical body though? I'd argue that a high dex character also has well trained muscles, just not the ones delivering raw strength and power. Monks are martials artists and rely on dex, so do acrobatics.
Being able to expertly balance, spring into action and accurately stab with a rapier, all rely on being atleast somewhat physically fit. I've kinda always viewed dex as being the sort of muscles a typical fantasy ninja would have, to be cliche.
I'm not saying strength shouldn't be involved with climbing, but bruce lee surely had both "strength" muscles" and "dex" muscles imo.
Sure but you those Dex muscles aren't what helped bruce lee climb. it was those STR muscles.
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Being dexterous does not give you the muscles needed to jump longer or climb better. But being dexterous does help you grab the ledge when you slip and fall.
So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way.
Climbers might not be big and bulky, but they are strong. Think about a gymnast using rings or parallell bars. No amount of dexterity allows you to use your fingertips to pull up your entire body weight.
Yes, Conan is very strong, but so is Batman. Also martial artists (anyone played by Bruce Lee, for example).
Hmm but isn't dex also a reflection of your physical body though? I'd argue that a high dex character also has well trained muscles, just not the ones delivering raw strength and power. Monks are martials artists and rely on dex, so do acrobatics.
Being able to expertly balance, spring into action and accurately stab with a rapier, all rely on being atleast somewhat physically fit. I've kinda always viewed dex as being the sort of muscles a typical fantasy ninja would have, to be cliche.
I'm not saying strength shouldn't be involved with climbing, but bruce lee surely had both "strength" muscles" and "dex" muscles imo.
Sure but you those Dex muscles aren't what helped bruce lee climb. it was those STR muscles.
Gotta disagree with ya there. I say both strength and dex are very important in climbing, from what I understand. Climbing is very much about agility balance and coordination.
So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way.
Climbers might not be big and bulky, but they are strong. Think about a gymnast using rings or parallell bars. No amount of dexterity allows you to use your fingertips to pull up your entire body weight.
Yes, Conan is very strong, but so is Batman. Also martial artists (anyone played by Bruce Lee, for example).
Hmm but isn't dex also a reflection of your physical body though? I'd argue that a high dex character also has well trained muscles, just not the ones delivering raw strength and power. Monks are martials artists and rely on dex, so do acrobatics.
Being able to expertly balance, spring into action and accurately stab with a rapier, all rely on being atleast somewhat physically fit. I've kinda always viewed dex as being the sort of muscles a typical fantasy ninja would have, to be cliche.
I'm not saying strength shouldn't be involved with climbing, but bruce lee surely had both "strength" muscles" and "dex" muscles imo.
Sure but you those Dex muscles aren't what helped bruce lee climb. it was those STR muscles.
Gotta disagree with ya there. I say both strength and dex are very important in climbing, from what I understand. Climbing is very much about agility balance and coordination.
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Being dexterous does not give you the muscles needed to jump longer or climb better. But being dexterous does help you grab the ledge when you slip and fall.
No but it helps you keep balance on that one ledge you can reach with your toe, it also helps you distribute your weight properly, aswell as actually being able to catch that ledge as you fall.
So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way.
Climbers might not be big and bulky, but they are strong. Think about a gymnast using rings or parallell bars. No amount of dexterity allows you to use your fingertips to pull up your entire body weight.
Yes, Conan is very strong, but so is Batman. Also martial artists (anyone played by Bruce Lee, for example).
Hmm but isn't dex also a reflection of your physical body though? I'd argue that a high dex character also has well trained muscles, just not the ones delivering raw strength and power. Monks are martials artists and rely on dex, so do acrobatics.
Being able to expertly balance, spring into action and accurately stab with a rapier, all rely on being atleast somewhat physically fit. I've kinda always viewed dex as being the sort of muscles a typical fantasy ninja would have, to be cliche.
I'm not saying strength shouldn't be involved with climbing, but bruce lee surely had both "strength" muscles" and "dex" muscles imo.
Sure but you those Dex muscles aren't what helped bruce lee climb. it was those STR muscles.
Gotta disagree with ya there. I say both strength and dex are very important in climbing, from what I understand. Climbing is very much about agility balance and coordination.
In my experience, Str is more important.
Yeah no amount of balance or agility is going to prevent your muscles from getting tired. NO amount of coordination is going to propel your arm muscles to lift your body weight upwards.
I mean climbing is balance, coordination AND using your strength to physically pull your self/ push your self up.
Frankly if we want to talk about climbing it is some odd combo of STR,DEX, and CON - but when you are in combat your STR (athletics) is what is going to get you up the side of that cliff in 6 seconds, not your agility to properly balance. Doesn't matter how nimble you are if you can't do a pull up.
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Being dexterous does not give you the muscles needed to jump longer or climb better. But being dexterous does help you grab the ledge when you slip and fall.
No but it helps you keep balance on that one ledge you can reach with your toe, it also helps you distribute your weight properly, aswell as actually being able to catch that ledge as you fall.
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Being dexterous does not give you the muscles needed to jump longer or climb better. But being dexterous does help you grab the ledge when you slip and fall.
No but it helps you keep balance on that one ledge you can reach with your toe, it also helps you distribute your weight properly, aswell as actually being able to catch that ledge as you fall.
I mean - see bolded text.
What's your point`? I made never the argument that strength wasn't relevant for climbing. I was just saying that dex certainly alsoplays a part and that dex obviously reflects some real physical fitness in your character.
Let’s face it, the real reason is because Dex does everything and they needed to make some stuff more Str based to make those characters more appealing by comparison.
Let’s face it, the real reason is because Dex does everything and they needed to make some stuff more Str based to make those characters more appealing by comparison.
OR there is actual physics that goes into why being stronger does indeed help with climb. *shrug*
I mean the game was kind enough to give you the "hardcore parkour" if you want to Acrobatics your way over things. Which again looking at frankly many things people use that skill for would definitely be STR based, not DEX.
But if you need to justify it as a "the game needed to give STR something" fine, but there s still a logical reason.
Obviously having dexterity is important for climbing, but it's not sufficient. If you have very little functional strength (maybe you've been bedridden for months, maybe you're elderly) no amount of coordination and balance is going to get you up a cliff face. That's why Strength is a better default.
Ability checks only come into play if success isn't guaranteed. Depending on what's being climbed, the weather conditions and the DM's judgement there could be multiple ways to approach the challenge, calling for different ability checks.
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So as a rogue, it really annoys me that climbing is a strength thing. mostly because an 18 strength is a totally massive beast with the ability to hold a great axe, which is really heavy. That kind of Strength does not translate to climbing at all. Ever meet an actual climber? light and lean and agile. they are strong, yes, but not in a translatable 18 strength kind of way. Now, I get the Conan thing. He climbed the wall and that's a cool visual. I'm not saying that if your strong you shouldn't be able to climb, but definitely you should not be able to climb better than an 18 agility rogue (same with JUMP). Why doesn't the skill have a dual Strength or Dexterity mod? Intimidation gives you the option to use Strength, and I would think that a negative modifier in Charisma would be a PLUS to intimidation in combination with a Strength Intimidation check. "The Teifling death knight grabs the kobold by the neck and slowly begins to squeeze, his horrid scars (8 charisma), repulsive features and glowing fire flamed eyes (Thaumaturgy) burning with hate as he says "Tell me where the hidden entrance is"...
How do you deal with this, particularly if your DM chooses to follow the rules because "that's the rules".
Variant: Skills with Different Abilities
Normally, your proficiency in a skill applies only to a specific kind of ability check. Proficiency in Athletics, for example, usually applies to Strength checks. In some situations, though, your proficiency might reasonably apply to a different kind of check. In such cases, the DM might ask for a check using an unusual combination of ability and skill, or you might ask your DM if you can apply a proficiency to a different check. For example, if you have to swim from an offshore island to the mainland, your DM might call for a Constitution check to see if you have the stamina to make it that far. In this case, your DM might allow you to apply your proficiency in Athletics and ask for a Constitution (Athletics) check. So if you're proficient in Athletics, you apply your proficiency bonus to the Constitution check just as you would normally do for a Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, when your half-‐‑orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (Intimidation) check, even though Intimidation is normally associated with Charisma.
Intimidation does NOT give you the option to use Str. The DM might ask for a Str (Intimidation) check, but that is not a given. It has to make sense to them. And the same goes for absolutely everything. Interrogations could use any combo of Int/Cha and Persuasion/Investigation, for instance. It just depends on what you're trying to find out and how. Cha (Persuasion) is arguably the standard option, but the DM can go with something else or even give you a choice.
That aside, good climbers are strong for their build as well. The rules are a simplified approximation, they don't try to take every little thing into account because that'd bog the game down too much. That's why there's one standard ability/skill combo, which can be changed if the DM sees fit..
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This is what features like Expertise and Second-Story Work are for.
Because "good enough" rules that are easy to remember work better for most people than more complicated rules. And while different people may have different thresholds for complexity the game designers still have to draw the line somewhere because this is a tabletop game run by humans, not a video game that can perform arbitrarily complicated physics simulations in the blink of an eye.
If you're unhappy with your options for building the character you want and your DM isn't willing to find a compromise you might be better off finding a new DM or, if that's not an option, simply accepting the limitation and finding a different character concept. This is more a people problem than a rules problem.
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It is ntirely up to the DM what ability check to use for an activity and whether it is appropriate to add a skill proficiency. If you decribe you are gong to climb uin a particular way then the DM might decide that an athletics (dex) or acrobatics role is appropriate, they may also increase the DC. Climbing a cliff the "normal" way might be an athletics with DC 12 but trying to parkour up it might be an accrobatics DC 18.
I find your examples interesting however because Dexterity al already the most useful ability in the game. It is good to compare it with strength (as you do) becasue martial characters can choose whether to be strength based or dex based.
Athletics is a useful skill but probably less so than stealth, athletics is the only skill that is usually a strength skill, dexteriaty also has accrobatics (which is an alternatice to athletics to excape grapples) and slight of hand. Dexterity the most common saving throw, is used for AC for all but players with heavy armor and initiative. Strength is one of the less frequent saving throws. A strength requirement is needed for heavy armor but this is more a restriction to heavy armor than a use of strength. A cleric having wisdom as their primary stat will struggle to get strength high enough to wear plate and if they go to to strength 15 they are still +2 so they are better off having a +2 dex to mmax out medium armor for only 1AC less and the option to switych to a breast plate if stealth is required. A fighter using a bow needs high dex to attack and the benefits of the extra AC (accepting the stealth cost) are very small compared with the benefits of having con or even wisdom (for saves and perception) as a secondary stat. The result is that it is extremely rare to wear heavy armor and not attack with strength.
As a rogue you are lucky in that you only really need high dex. Decent con is nice especially if you are melee but you have the option to make strength a third stat if athlecitic is important to you. Pity the poor monk who needs high dex and wisdom for their attacks as well as high con (not only are they forced to be melee but disengaging as a bonus action requires use of a limited resource. This gives means if you want a positive to any other ability you are sacrificing your key stats (my monk was created with point buy and has 8 in Str, Int and Cha)
I'll be honest.. Whenever I think about a possible sneaky dex-type character, I often also imagine them being great at climbing due do them being nimble and all. .I think It's a natural extension of the fantasy. So yea, it is honestly a lil frustrating if you have the type of DM who doesn't really use other than the normal attribute for skill checks...
Just in terms of class fantasies of what certain attributes lend themselves to, Often it's the dex character who you'd expert to see climbing around, and not the hulking barbarian or the full plate fighter... But really.. I can understand it from the perspective of Dex already being super powerful.
Obviously expertise/prof is a decent workaround for sure.. But Perhaps look into adventuring gear to help you out. The climber's kit doesn't exactly help you.. well.. climb.. But I does anchor you securely once you've reached a useful spot.. There's also the good old rope and grappling hook.. If you have access to an uncommon magical item, I believe a rope of climbing is super useful.
If you think about it, typically your master thief will have a lot of gadgets and stuff, so why not lean into that aspect? If you make enough of an effort, perhaps you'll even convince your DM to help you out here and there.
Climbers might not be big and bulky, but they are strong. Think about a gymnast using rings or parallell bars. No amount of dexterity allows you to use your fingertips to pull up your entire body weight.
Yes, Conan is very strong, but so is Batman. Also martial artists (anyone played by Bruce Lee, for example).
Ability scores are independent of appearance. Someone with 18 strength might be a hulking, muscle-bound warrior, or they might be a thin, wiry individual. Likewise, charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one, it's not about your appearance as much as it's about the way you carry yourself and the ability to project confidence when you speak.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Hmm but isn't dex also a reflection of your physical body though? I'd argue that a high dex character also has well trained muscles, just not the ones delivering raw strength and power. Monks are martials artists and rely on dex, so do acrobatics.
Being able to expertly balance, spring into action and accurately stab with a rapier, all rely on being atleast somewhat physically fit. I've kinda always viewed dex as being the sort of muscles a typical fantasy ninja would have, to be cliche.
I'm not saying strength shouldn't be involved with climbing, but bruce lee surely had both "strength" muscles" and "dex" muscles imo.
Want to be a climber rogue? Pick Athletics as one of your proficiencies. Want to be excellent at it? Choose it for Expertise. Over time, your ST score will matter relatively less and less.
Sure but you those Dex muscles aren't what helped bruce lee climb. it was those STR muscles.
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Being dexterous does not give you the muscles needed to jump longer or climb better. But being dexterous does help you grab the ledge when you slip and fall.
Gotta disagree with ya there. I say both strength and dex are very important in climbing, from what I understand. Climbing is very much about agility balance and coordination.
In my experience, Str is more important.
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No but it helps you keep balance on that one ledge you can reach with your toe, it also helps you distribute your weight properly, aswell as actually being able to catch that ledge as you fall.
Yeah no amount of balance or agility is going to prevent your muscles from getting tired. NO amount of coordination is going to propel your arm muscles to lift your body weight upwards.
I mean climbing is balance, coordination AND using your strength to physically pull your self/ push your self up.
Frankly if we want to talk about climbing it is some odd combo of STR,DEX, and CON - but when you are in combat your STR (athletics) is what is going to get you up the side of that cliff in 6 seconds, not your agility to properly balance. Doesn't matter how nimble you are if you can't do a pull up.
I mean - see bolded text.
What's your point`? I made never the argument that strength wasn't relevant for climbing. I was just saying that dex certainly alsoplays a part and that dex obviously reflects some real physical fitness in your character.
Let’s face it, the real reason is because Dex does everything and they needed to make some stuff more Str based to make those characters more appealing by comparison.
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OR there is actual physics that goes into why being stronger does indeed help with climb. *shrug*
I mean the game was kind enough to give you the "hardcore parkour" if you want to Acrobatics your way over things. Which again looking at frankly many things people use that skill for would definitely be STR based, not DEX.
But if you need to justify it as a "the game needed to give STR something" fine, but there s still a logical reason.
Obviously having dexterity is important for climbing, but it's not sufficient. If you have very little functional strength (maybe you've been bedridden for months, maybe you're elderly) no amount of coordination and balance is going to get you up a cliff face. That's why Strength is a better default.
Ability checks only come into play if success isn't guaranteed. Depending on what's being climbed, the weather conditions and the DM's judgement there could be multiple ways to approach the challenge, calling for different ability checks.
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