In probably every D&D game I've played, someone brings up how slow 30ft of movement over 6 seconds is. The speed holds some weight, so long as you're guarding yourself, performing several attacks, and/or otherwise interacting with objects or other creatures. But if your sole focus is chasing down someone to attack them or trying to tackle/grapple them and you're willing to sacrifice your own defense to do it...seems fitting that you actually run at a pace that is both remarkable and one you normally could not maintain.
This ability would be freely available to all classes, but Rogues would never use it obviously.
Reckless Movement: As a bonus action, you can move up to your base speed toward an enemy of your choice. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage. You cannot use this ability again until you've not used any movement during one of your turns or until you've rolled initiative again at the start of combat. Reckless Movement and Reckless Attack may not be used on the same turn, in any combination. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your constitution modifier (minimum: 1). You regain all uses after finishing a short or long rest.
Also, the spirit of this rule is to limit your actions to one target, in terms of subduing them or otherwise. However, it is hard to put that in a rule while still allowing for creativity/role play within the game. (IE, making an attack at the target to try to trip him up as you run past and then cut a rope holding a large chandelier that lights the hall the bad guy is trying to escape down)
Some feedback I've received elsewhere:
1 round of 0 or 1/2 base movement after using the ability Limiting the action(s) to grapple a target Not allowing this to stack with Haste Disadvantage on your attacks made when using the ability Recharge only on a long rest
This is like the Tabaxi's feature only weaker. O.o
They already get 60 ft a turn with Dash, or overland travel speed 6 mph. This can be maintained for several hours, every day. That's more than decent. A rogue gets bonus action dash on top so that's 90 ft a turn or 9 mph overland (although a party moves overland at the pace of the slowest member). A monk at 20th level gets 120 ft a turn, or 12 mph (and 20 turns or 2 minutes where they get 180 ft if using ki). Some races like aaracokra and MoP humans are innately faster, with some like Tabaxi having bursts of double speed on some turns.
For combat and chases, this is plenty. For overland it's decent, and there options for faster with mounts and spells. Then there are also magic items for those combat bursts of speed.
With the right race, class, already existing feats and magic items you can break the sound barrier.
I see no reason whatsoever to increase speed further. Not once in all my years have I had anyone complain about lack of speed options in D&D. Compared to some other games like Pathfinder D&D is actually generous (avg. speed in Pathfinder is 25 ft, instead of 30 ft).
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Just to be clear, it's not meant to be better than any option or even a great option in general. In fact, because it's available to all...it should be pretty bland as a basic ability.
This also isn't related to any kind of travel or average speed talk because this is not something that can be sustained for more than 6 seconds.
It's just meant as a limited use option that doesn't require a specific race/class/feat choice by the player and a trade-off that anyone can take in the moment knowing they may not be able to do it later and it doubles their chances of being crit and significantly raises their chances of being hit.
(As a note, I do not need discussion over the countless ways the game may be broken using other abilities... just here to talk about this ability please)
You've mentally arrived at something like the Run and Charge Actions from Pathfinder.
Charge let's you dump the rest of your actions to move double your speed in a straight line and still hit someone. Run let's you move up to 4x your combat movement speed depending on your armor type, but nothing else in that round up to a number of times equal to your Con. Mod per combat. Though considering the difference between Pathfinder's stance on combat movement speed it's more like 3x instead.
Just to be clear, it's not meant to be better than any option or even a great option in general. In fact, because it's available to all...it should be pretty bland as a basic ability.
This also isn't related to any kind of travel or average speed talk because this is not something that can be sustained for more than 6 seconds.
It's just meant as a limited use option that doesn't require a specific race/class/feat choice by the player and a trade-off that anyone can take in the moment knowing they may not be able to do it later and it doubles their chances of being crit and significantly raises their chances of being hit.
(As a note, I do not need discussion over the countless ways the game may be broken using other abilities... just here to talk about this ability please)
so I read initially as similar to reckless attack. Barbarian. But designed for everyone.
I like the overall concept of it. Because it makes sense.
there are plenty of times where one would RP in a combat scenario trying to dash towards X NPC/pc in an effort to save them at expense to their own safety. And this allows for it in a setting where the mechanics don’t really have anything for that other than “rule of cool”
I think this steps on the rogue and monk abilities too much. They should ultimately be able to move more than any common schmo adventurer, penalty or no.
I'd probably tone it way down as follows:
On your turn you can choose to increase your movement speed by 10 feet until the end of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage.
This lets everyone use it while allowing for the dashers to stay proportionately ahead.
If you're hearing a lot of griping about movement speed limits, it's probably an encounter design issue. If you find yourself spending the first 1-2 rounds just running towards the enemy in every combat, try changing tactics to sneak up a bit closer to your targets or just outright ask your DM if it's really necessary that you have to run a 100m dash at the start of each fight. It really kills the pace of the action and is super frustrating for melee characters.
there are plenty of times where one would RP in a combat scenario trying to dash towards X NPC/pc in an effort to save them at expense to their own safety. And this allows for it in a setting where the mechanics don’t really have anything for that other than “rule of cool”
This is a use case I hadn't considered, definitely fits though.
If this isn't a sentiment shared by the majority of your group I would recommend to the concerned player(s) the Charger feat.
The biggest problem I see is that since enemies would also be allowed to use it you're back to square one in the cases you're intending to address.
There's a potential for abuse if not used as intended, but it sounds like people have already covered that. I feel like it could make some combats more dynamic if used that way(maybe based off hit dice in that case?)
If you find yourself dealing with a lot of escaping enemies maybe considering using a skill challenge instead of traditional combat mechanics?
If this isn't a sentiment shared by the majority of your group I would recommend to the concerned player(s) the Charger feat.
The biggest problem I see is that since enemies would also be allowed to use it you're back to square one in the cases you're intending to address.
There's a potential for abuse if not used as intended, but it sounds like people have already covered that. I feel like it could make some combats more dynamic if used that way(maybe based off hit dice in that case?)
If you find yourself dealing with a lot of escaping enemies maybe considering using a skill challenge instead of traditional combat mechanics?
The goal was to get away from making the players use a feat/spell/magic item to cover something as basic as a "short burst of speed that you can't endlessly produce". That really shouldn't be hard to put into the game.
As for enemies having it: Yes, most would, and they'd also get the downside of using it too...so they may elect not to.
I'm not sure how you mean basing it off hit die. Making it cost hit die? Movement gained based on the size of the die? A number of uses equal to hit die? Lotta options there.
It may just be bad luck but skill challenges usually feel overly long...so I'd rather avoid them.
On your turn you can choose to increase your movement speed by 10 feet until the end of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage.
This lets everyone use it while allowing for the dashers to stay proportionately ahead.
Sorry I missed yours. While I hear you, the intent of this is a limited ability and not an endless resource. Other than that, 10ft is likely not enough to close the gap and it would just go unused.
I'd considered making additions if you already have the ability to dash as a bonus, like adding 10ft...but see above, and honestly, the description was long enough without it.
You can chase somebody down using the existing rules. Use Dash to get close to them, wait for them to move and you get your opportunity attack on them. This seems to fit in with chasing something down - using lots of energy to keep up with them, and only occasionally striking with a weapon.
If they disengage, then they are only moving their normal move distance, so you will likely be able to use your move distance and get your full attacks on the following round.
You can chase somebody down using the existing rules. Use Dash to get close to them, wait for them to move and you get your opportunity attack on them. This seems to fit in with chasing something down - using lots of energy to keep up with them, and only occasionally striking with a weapon.
If they disengage, then they are only moving their normal move distance, so you will likely be able to use your move distance and get your full attacks on the following round.
Not surprisingly, this was considered before making the post.
On your turn you can choose to increase your movement speed by 10 feet until the end of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage.
This lets everyone use it while allowing for the dashers to stay proportionately ahead.
Sorry I missed yours. While I hear you, the intent of this is a limited ability and not an endless resource. Other than that, 10ft is likely not enough to close the gap and it would just go unused.
I'd considered making additions if you already have the ability to dash as a bonus, like adding 10ft...but see above, and honestly, the description was long enough without it.
If you Dash as your action, it adds 20 ft overall (and still leaves you with your BA) whereas yours would add 30 on a typical character so it's not that different. It's short and simple, and IMO would be used more often than you'd expect. I've seen plenty of situations where someone just wanted 5 or 10 more feet of movement to get where they needed to be.
Bonus action dash is a special thing that only the two most agile classes can do. I just think allowing a dwarven paladin to do the same thing really takes something away from those classes - and honestly the cost of disadvantage is not a huge penalty. As a frequent user of Reckless Strikes, I'm often granting disadvantage some other way so the actual cost to me is zero.
Looking through the thread here, I think I'd consider allowing Inspiration to be spent to permit normal movement as a bonus action or reaction. That way it comes up in dramatic situations when the extra movement matters, and it encourages dramatic/creative actions that give Inspiration, but it won't come up often enough to really step on the toes of other movement abilities.
On your turn you can choose to increase your movement speed by 10 feet until the end of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage.
This lets everyone use it while allowing for the dashers to stay proportionately ahead.
This should definitely just be a thing you can choose to do, if for no other reason than it steps hard on the toes of the action economy of the game, especially with a good number of martials having poignant uses for their bonus actions and all the new spells coming out in each book and UA adding more.
If your whole point is to offer a consistent mobility option, it should be consistently available. However as it stands it seems like your point is to give most classes comparable mobility to faster classes but at a trade-off which is two different design intents.
Here's some rambling thoughts after reading over it a few more times.
make it activate for free Allows ALL people to use it ALL the time, instead of only sometimes.
uses equal to con mod is good + minimum 1 is good, but something else could also work and provide a better number scale. Not necessarily better but I propose; half your Con. Mod + Half your proficiency bonus, rounded down. Because it's your Proficiency bonus, you'll always have at least 1 and it'll keep people from just pumping constitution and being comically fast.
ALL attack rolls against you for that WHOLE TURN is a huge deal, but is it a reasonable power trade? I don't think so. In this circumstance where you are chasing someone down, who is going to be attacking you? Perhaps their goons, but this would require that not only are those goons a threat for this to really be a trade-off, but that with your up to 4x movement utilizing the Dash Action as your main action, that you couldn't work your way around them and possibly bridge the gap. Especially if your aim is versatility you could just make this a thing that exists by uses and not include a trade-off at all. 2x Especially if you are going to make this mechanic recharge on Short OR Long rest. Even without changing the number of uses, in games where you only have 1 or two combats, a few uses of this ability. goes a long way. Utilize the variant from
It'll make Barbarians able to do it which honestly is exactly what they want. Except you should change the exclusivity mechanic so Barbarians can do it as well. If you insist on keeping it you can make Barbarians take additional damage or have them face triple advantage even.
I like it. I don't see why monks and rogues have to be faster than a barbarian or fighter with 20 str. The difference is that monks and rogues can do it safely. For balance I'd maybe give this the same limitation as the orc racial 'aggressive' so you have to end up closer to an enemy. That way an archer or spell caster couldn't move in, shoot, and move back out of an enemy's range safely every turn.
Aggressive As a bonus action, you can move up to your speed toward an enemy of your choice that you can see or hear. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started.
I'm fully into adding this limitation. Thanks.
Just as a note, they wouldn't be able to do this every turn (even if they somehow had a 20+ con score) as they'd have to not move on a turn to be able to use it again.
On your turn you can choose to increase your movement speed by 10 feet until the end of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage.
This lets everyone use it while allowing for the dashers to stay proportionately ahead.
This should definitely just be a thing you can choose to do, if for no other reason than it steps hard on the toes of the action economy of the game, especially with a good number of martials having poignant uses for their bonus actions and all the new spells coming out in each book and UA adding more.
If your whole point is to offer a consistent mobility option, it should be consistently available. However as it stands it seems like your point is to give most classes comparable mobility to faster classes but at a trade-off which is two different design intents.
Here's some rambling thoughts after reading over it a few more times.
make it activate for free Allows ALL people to use it ALL the time, instead of only sometimes.
uses equal to con mod is good + minimum 1 is good, but something else could also work and provide a better number scale. Not necessarily better but I propose; half your Con. Mod + Half your proficiency bonus, rounded down. Because it's your Proficiency bonus, you'll always have at least 1 and it'll keep people from just pumping constitution and being comically fast.
ALL attack rolls against you for that WHOLE TURN is a huge deal, but is it a reasonable power trade? I don't think so. In this circumstance where you are chasing someone down, who is going to be attacking you? Perhaps their goons, but this would require that not only are those goons a threat for this to really be a trade-off, but that with your up to 4x movement utilizing the Dash Action as your main action, that you couldn't work your way around them and possibly bridge the gap. Especially if your aim is versatility you could just make this a thing that exists by uses and not include a trade-off at all. 2x Especially if you are going to make this mechanic recharge on Short OR Long rest. Even without changing the number of uses, in games where you only have 1 or two combats, a few uses of this ability. goes a long way. Utilize the variant from
It'll make Barbarians able to do it which honestly is exactly what they want. Except you should change the exclusivity mechanic so Barbarians can do it as well. If you insist on keeping it you can make Barbarians take additional damage or have them face triple advantage even.
- It is supposed to step on the economy, to balance the ability. - It is not supposed to be consistently available for use. Rather it is only available to every character as limited use, to balance the ability. - 4x movement wasn't supposed to be possible, but after seeing you say that, I can see how you could think that. I'll make that more clear. - Regarding risk vs. reward: never assume a running enemy has nothing to fight with. Perhaps their fleeing is just to funnel the foolish adventurers into a line for a lightning bolt or any other AoE spell. Or lure them into a hall with allies, arrow slits, traps, or any number of things. That trade may be far worse than you imagine. - Barbarians are not excluded, they just have to have an actual penalty with the ability. Any GM can work out the triple advantage penalty for use with their player on a case-by-case basis, probably not something most players would appreciate having forced on them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In probably every D&D game I've played, someone brings up how slow 30ft of movement over 6 seconds is. The speed holds some weight, so long as you're guarding yourself, performing several attacks, and/or otherwise interacting with objects or other creatures. But if your sole focus is chasing down someone to attack them or trying to tackle/grapple them and you're willing to sacrifice your own defense to do it...seems fitting that you actually run at a pace that is both remarkable and one you normally could not maintain.
This ability would be freely available to all classes, but Rogues would never use it obviously.
Reckless Movement: As a bonus action, you can move up to your base speed toward an enemy of your choice. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage. You cannot use this ability again until you've not used any movement during one of your turns or until you've rolled initiative again at the start of combat. Reckless Movement and Reckless Attack may not be used on the same turn, in any combination. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your constitution modifier (minimum: 1). You regain all uses after finishing a short or long rest.
Also, the spirit of this rule is to limit your actions to one target, in terms of subduing them or otherwise. However, it is hard to put that in a rule while still allowing for creativity/role play within the game. (IE, making an attack at the target to try to trip him up as you run past and then cut a rope holding a large chandelier that lights the hall the bad guy is trying to escape down)
Some feedback I've received elsewhere:
1 round of 0 or 1/2 base movement after using the ability
Limiting the action(s) to grapple a target
Not allowing this to stack with Haste
Disadvantage on your attacks made when using the ability
Recharge only on a long rest
Thoughts?
This is like the Tabaxi's feature only weaker. O.o
They already get 60 ft a turn with Dash, or overland travel speed 6 mph. This can be maintained for several hours, every day. That's more than decent. A rogue gets bonus action dash on top so that's 90 ft a turn or 9 mph overland (although a party moves overland at the pace of the slowest member). A monk at 20th level gets 120 ft a turn, or 12 mph (and 20 turns or 2 minutes where they get 180 ft if using ki). Some races like aaracokra and MoP humans are innately faster, with some like Tabaxi having bursts of double speed on some turns.
For combat and chases, this is plenty. For overland it's decent, and there options for faster with mounts and spells. Then there are also magic items for those combat bursts of speed.
With the right race, class, already existing feats and magic items you can break the sound barrier.
I see no reason whatsoever to increase speed further. Not once in all my years have I had anyone complain about lack of speed options in D&D. Compared to some other games like Pathfinder D&D is actually generous (avg. speed in Pathfinder is 25 ft, instead of 30 ft).
The average running speed for a healthy adult human is around 6 mph. So this tracks.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Just to be clear, it's not meant to be better than any option or even a great option in general. In fact, because it's available to all...it should be pretty bland as a basic ability.
This also isn't related to any kind of travel or average speed talk because this is not something that can be sustained for more than 6 seconds.
It's just meant as a limited use option that doesn't require a specific race/class/feat choice by the player and a trade-off that anyone can take in the moment knowing they may not be able to do it later and it doubles their chances of being crit and significantly raises their chances of being hit.
(As a note, I do not need discussion over the countless ways the game may be broken using other abilities... just here to talk about this ability please)
You've mentally arrived at something like the Run and Charge Actions from Pathfinder.
Charge let's you dump the rest of your actions to move double your speed in a straight line and still hit someone.
Run let's you move up to 4x your combat movement speed depending on your armor type, but nothing else in that round up to a number of times equal to your Con. Mod per combat. Though considering the difference between Pathfinder's stance on combat movement speed it's more like 3x instead.
so I read initially as similar to reckless attack. Barbarian. But designed for everyone.
I like the overall concept of it. Because it makes sense.
there are plenty of times where one would RP in a combat scenario trying to dash towards X NPC/pc in an effort to save them at expense to their own safety. And this allows for it in a setting where the mechanics don’t really have anything for that other than “rule of cool”
Blank
I think this steps on the rogue and monk abilities too much. They should ultimately be able to move more than any common schmo adventurer, penalty or no.
I'd probably tone it way down as follows:
On your turn you can choose to increase your movement speed by 10 feet until the end of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls made against you have advantage.
This lets everyone use it while allowing for the dashers to stay proportionately ahead.
If you're hearing a lot of griping about movement speed limits, it's probably an encounter design issue. If you find yourself spending the first 1-2 rounds just running towards the enemy in every combat, try changing tactics to sneak up a bit closer to your targets or just outright ask your DM if it's really necessary that you have to run a 100m dash at the start of each fight. It really kills the pace of the action and is super frustrating for melee characters.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This is a use case I hadn't considered, definitely fits though.
If this isn't a sentiment shared by the majority of your group I would recommend to the concerned player(s) the Charger feat.
The biggest problem I see is that since enemies would also be allowed to use it you're back to square one in the cases you're intending to address.
There's a potential for abuse if not used as intended, but it sounds like people have already covered that. I feel like it could make some combats more dynamic if used that way(maybe based off hit dice in that case?)
If you find yourself dealing with a lot of escaping enemies maybe considering using a skill challenge instead of traditional combat mechanics?
The goal was to get away from making the players use a feat/spell/magic item to cover something as basic as a "short burst of speed that you can't endlessly produce". That really shouldn't be hard to put into the game.
As for enemies having it: Yes, most would, and they'd also get the downside of using it too...so they may elect not to.
I'm not sure how you mean basing it off hit die. Making it cost hit die? Movement gained based on the size of the die? A number of uses equal to hit die? Lotta options there.
It may just be bad luck but skill challenges usually feel overly long...so I'd rather avoid them.
Sorry I missed yours. While I hear you, the intent of this is a limited ability and not an endless resource. Other than that, 10ft is likely not enough to close the gap and it would just go unused.
I'd considered making additions if you already have the ability to dash as a bonus, like adding 10ft...but see above, and honestly, the description was long enough without it.
You can chase somebody down using the existing rules. Use Dash to get close to them, wait for them to move and you get your opportunity attack on them. This seems to fit in with chasing something down - using lots of energy to keep up with them, and only occasionally striking with a weapon.
If they disengage, then they are only moving their normal move distance, so you will likely be able to use your move distance and get your full attacks on the following round.
Not surprisingly, this was considered before making the post.
If you Dash as your action, it adds 20 ft overall (and still leaves you with your BA) whereas yours would add 30 on a typical character so it's not that different. It's short and simple, and IMO would be used more often than you'd expect. I've seen plenty of situations where someone just wanted 5 or 10 more feet of movement to get where they needed to be.
Bonus action dash is a special thing that only the two most agile classes can do. I just think allowing a dwarven paladin to do the same thing really takes something away from those classes - and honestly the cost of disadvantage is not a huge penalty. As a frequent user of Reckless Strikes, I'm often granting disadvantage some other way so the actual cost to me is zero.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Looking through the thread here, I think I'd consider allowing Inspiration to be spent to permit normal movement as a bonus action or reaction. That way it comes up in dramatic situations when the extra movement matters, and it encourages dramatic/creative actions that give Inspiration, but it won't come up often enough to really step on the toes of other movement abilities.
I agree with scatterbraind on the point of activation:
This should definitely just be a thing you can choose to do, if for no other reason than it steps hard on the toes of the action economy of the game, especially with a good number of martials having poignant uses for their bonus actions and all the new spells coming out in each book and UA adding more.
If your whole point is to offer a consistent mobility option, it should be consistently available.
However as it stands it seems like your point is to give most classes comparable mobility to faster classes but at a trade-off which is two different design intents.
Here's some rambling thoughts after reading over it a few more times.
Allows ALL people to use it ALL the time, instead of only sometimes.
Not necessarily better but I propose; half your Con. Mod + Half your proficiency bonus, rounded down.
Because it's your Proficiency bonus, you'll always have at least 1 and it'll keep people from just pumping constitution and being comically fast.
I don't think so. In this circumstance where you are chasing someone down, who is going to be attacking you? Perhaps their goons, but this would require that not only are those goons a threat for this to really be a trade-off, but that with your up to 4x movement utilizing the Dash Action as your main action, that you couldn't work your way around them and possibly bridge the gap.
Especially if your aim is versatility you could just make this a thing that exists by uses and not include a trade-off at all.
2x Especially if you are going to make this mechanic recharge on Short OR Long rest. Even without changing the number of uses, in games where you only have 1 or two combats, a few uses of this ability. goes a long way.
Utilize the variant from
Except you should change the exclusivity mechanic so Barbarians can do it as well.
If you insist on keeping it you can make Barbarians take additional damage or have them face triple advantage even.
Aggressive
As a bonus action, you can move up to your speed toward an enemy of your choice that you can see or hear. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started.
I'm fully into adding this limitation. Thanks.
Just as a note, they wouldn't be able to do this every turn (even if they somehow had a 20+ con score) as they'd have to not move on a turn to be able to use it again.
- It is supposed to step on the economy, to balance the ability.
- It is not supposed to be consistently available for use. Rather it is only available to every character as limited use, to balance the ability.
- 4x movement wasn't supposed to be possible, but after seeing you say that, I can see how you could think that. I'll make that more clear.
- Regarding risk vs. reward: never assume a running enemy has nothing to fight with. Perhaps their fleeing is just to funnel the foolish adventurers into a line for a lightning bolt or any other AoE spell. Or lure them into a hall with allies, arrow slits, traps, or any number of things. That trade may be far worse than you imagine.
- Barbarians are not excluded, they just have to have an actual penalty with the ability. Any GM can work out the triple advantage penalty for use with their player on a case-by-case basis, probably not something most players would appreciate having forced on them.