So, I was looking at the beneficial and detrimental properties, and I have to say that, while the beneficial properties aren't that amazing for the most part, the detrimental properties are borderline pathetic, with the worst being 01-05, 16-20 and 81-85 which - In order - are: loss of limb and hair (That can grow back when under the effects of Regenerate), complete loss of control of your character upon failing a DC 20 Charisma save or Instant death upon failing a DC 10 Constitution save (And an immediate transformation into a Wight) and a 3d10 increase of age if you survive. But even with these being the most detrimental, they can be counteracted fairly quickly (Save, of course, for the instant death) or even completely ignored if you roll well in the event of succeeding the 81-85 Constitution save, since most races live past 100 except for humans and tortles, so it's the ONLY property that can potentially instantly doom a PC. The second hardest of these 3 being 01-05 can be solved with a casting of regeneration which, while it isn't the most accessible spell in the game, is quite possibly around the corner if you ever find yourself in possession of an artifact that would give you this detriment in the first place, which is an argument that could be made to an even greater extent to 16-20 since, if there even IS a spirit within the item that wants to possess you, if you have an artifact with this detriment you and your group are VERY likely capable of casting 5th level spells, or at the very least have access to somebody who knows how to cast Dispel Evil and Good to drive the spirit from the item before it can escape or after it enters your body, and even then, I can only assume that your party would be willing and ready to subdue you until they find some way to help.
The rest of the major detriments are pretty awful, most of them either being locked to a chance of them even happening after rolling for them or otherwise being super situational such as having every creature of a specific type that isn't humanoid are instantly hostile towards you. Granted there are some really effective ones outside of the ones I listed with vulnerability to all damage and the inability to speak which can ruin a PC's life, but when there is only a 5% chance to actually roll for these individual effects, they can't help but feel underwhelming, especially since most items that grant detrimental effects also grant beneficial effects, and often in greater amounts than the detriments. I know that the option to choose the effects is always there, but choosing something like muting a PC just seems borderline cruel to the player I'm hitting the mute button on, but choosing one that has no long-term repercussions makes you wonder why the item even has a detrimental property in the first place. As it is, 8d10 psychic damage is a lot, sure, but 3 rolls in and I haven't gotten a number that could kill a level 6 bard, partly due to luck, but when luck has to be factored and I'm the one who is going to be rolling the dice I feel it's safe to say that it isn't too detrimental since the party members can still pick you up in the event that you do go down to that damage.
I just feel that being a bad person and using these wholly evil artifacts - Which the game seems to lock these "detrimental" properties to - has seemingly no consequence to the player. Sure, people will think that they're evil and treat them differently, but if they were willing and ready to use an evil artifact then there is a good chance that both PC and player DO NOT GIVE A DAMN about what the npcs think of them or they wouldn't have attuned to it in the first place, and with the beneficial properties that most evil items get, it is certainly going to be a hell of a lot easier to ignore what they think. The only way a character/player would regret that they did a "bad thing" is if the numbers on their sheet get punished or if they lose control in some form. And the temporary "Long-Term" madness is not gonna cut it.
I guess as a prepping, first-time DM, I'm looking for a more effective way of punishing players for being evil instead of Instant death or global mute while not making the detriments seem completely trivial, and I guess I'm wondering how you would/have gone about punishing players for being evil?
I guess it would be better to ask this question then; How do you create a detriment for a player that invested nothing into their backstory so you have nothing that they would even have to RP being affected by it. Lord knows there is gonna be somebody picking Chaotic Neutral as they have for every other game I've played with them who just assigns every single action they make with "Its what my character would do". Somebody who is just there to roll dice and cause "lol, random" or Perception check every room to see what they can steal and immediately move to loot the room before anybody has a chance to say anything, you know? You can't really phase them aside from killing them off or taking the reins from them, and as a DM I don't want to have to do that since I want the players to enjoy the game.
I'll probably go off of what you said and make my own detriments or even a whole list, but what would it even be in that scenario?
I would generally rule that detrimental properties can only be cured once the subject is no longer attuned to the artifact, or alternately, curing the effect removes attunement.
I don't like tables for this kind of thing, it needs to be personal. Find an area where the wishes of the item and the wishes of the PC would be opposed, and create situations that make it happen.
Maybe it resists things that are done clearly in the name of good, imposing disadvantage or something. Maybe it zaps the character with 2d6 lightning damage when they do something it doesn't like, electric-dog-collar style. There is a lot of space between 'no penalty' and 'you are dominated.' Think of it like an unwilling ally that goes along with the hero but takes any opportunity it can to express its distrust and displeasure.
And keep in mind that Chaotic Neutral does not mean "I'm ok with being evil." That's why Chaotic Evil exists.
I could see both of the approaches presented could work, but when this player says "Chaotic Neutral", what they mean is, "I do what I want, when I want and however I want because I want to.", I've already determined that I'm going to be forbidding Chaotic Neutral from even being an option within the campaign because it is obviously a very complicated alignment to approach and is mainly used as a "But I'm NOT evil" argument after they try to shake down merfolk who were trying to escape a hydra by jumping onto a ship that wasn't even owned by somebody in the party. But yes, this player's current PC is by all accounts evil. And while his other characters weren't nearly as bad it is the same premise every time: They do what they want because "Its what their character would do."
Deviating away from flawed alignment systems however, both of these responses are helpful, and I could - At the very least try - to incorporate them both into the campaign, where the detriments are personal, and removing the detriment removes ends your attunement.
What I find annoying is the following minor penalties. Don't understand the logic of permanent penalties being minor.
Minor Detriment 01-05: While attuned to the artifact, you have disadvantage on saving throws against spells.
36-40:While attuned to the artifact, you are physically ill and have disadvantage on any ability check or saving throw that uses Strength or Constitution.
For Reference here are some Major which are all "correctable"
01-05: While you are attuned to the artifact, your body rots over the course of four days, after which the rotting stops. You lose your hair by the end of day 1, finger tips and toe tips by the end of day 2, lips and nose by the end of day 3, and ears by the end of day 4. A regenerate spell restores lost body parts.
61–65: You take 4d10 psychic damage when you become attuned to the artifact. 66–70 You take 8d10 psychic damage when you become attuned to the artifact.
76-80: When you become attuned to the artifact, one of your ability scores is reduced by 2 at random. A greater restoration spell restores the ability to normal.
If you are a DM who is experienced enough to be running a campaign that involves giving PCs access to an evil artifact, you aren't going to be rolling randomly on tables for their effects. If an artifact is included in a campaign at all then you can assume that it's probably the focus of the entire campaign.
It's also more likely, given that the campaign needs to be heavily homebrewed, that the DM will invent their own artifact and not use one from the books. Pre-bought modules, the stats you get for monsters and magical items are like the basic ideas, but also for those who don't have much prep time (and there's nothing wrong with that). An experienced DM is going to create their own monsters, items and campaigns if they have the time because the creating process is part of the fun of being the DM.
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So, I was looking at the beneficial and detrimental properties, and I have to say that, while the beneficial properties aren't that amazing for the most part, the detrimental properties are borderline pathetic, with the worst being 01-05, 16-20 and 81-85 which - In order - are: loss of limb and hair (That can grow back when under the effects of Regenerate), complete loss of control of your character upon failing a DC 20 Charisma save or Instant death upon failing a DC 10 Constitution save (And an immediate transformation into a Wight) and a 3d10 increase of age if you survive. But even with these being the most detrimental, they can be counteracted fairly quickly (Save, of course, for the instant death) or even completely ignored if you roll well in the event of succeeding the 81-85 Constitution save, since most races live past 100 except for humans and tortles, so it's the ONLY property that can potentially instantly doom a PC. The second hardest of these 3 being 01-05 can be solved with a casting of regeneration which, while it isn't the most accessible spell in the game, is quite possibly around the corner if you ever find yourself in possession of an artifact that would give you this detriment in the first place, which is an argument that could be made to an even greater extent to 16-20 since, if there even IS a spirit within the item that wants to possess you, if you have an artifact with this detriment you and your group are VERY likely capable of casting 5th level spells, or at the very least have access to somebody who knows how to cast Dispel Evil and Good to drive the spirit from the item before it can escape or after it enters your body, and even then, I can only assume that your party would be willing and ready to subdue you until they find some way to help.
The rest of the major detriments are pretty awful, most of them either being locked to a chance of them even happening after rolling for them or otherwise being super situational such as having every creature of a specific type that isn't humanoid are instantly hostile towards you. Granted there are some really effective ones outside of the ones I listed with vulnerability to all damage and the inability to speak which can ruin a PC's life, but when there is only a 5% chance to actually roll for these individual effects, they can't help but feel underwhelming, especially since most items that grant detrimental effects also grant beneficial effects, and often in greater amounts than the detriments. I know that the option to choose the effects is always there, but choosing something like muting a PC just seems borderline cruel to the player I'm hitting the mute button on, but choosing one that has no long-term repercussions makes you wonder why the item even has a detrimental property in the first place. As it is, 8d10 psychic damage is a lot, sure, but 3 rolls in and I haven't gotten a number that could kill a level 6 bard, partly due to luck, but when luck has to be factored and I'm the one who is going to be rolling the dice I feel it's safe to say that it isn't too detrimental since the party members can still pick you up in the event that you do go down to that damage.
I just feel that being a bad person and using these wholly evil artifacts - Which the game seems to lock these "detrimental" properties to - has seemingly no consequence to the player. Sure, people will think that they're evil and treat them differently, but if they were willing and ready to use an evil artifact then there is a good chance that both PC and player DO NOT GIVE A DAMN about what the npcs think of them or they wouldn't have attuned to it in the first place, and with the beneficial properties that most evil items get, it is certainly going to be a hell of a lot easier to ignore what they think. The only way a character/player would regret that they did a "bad thing" is if the numbers on their sheet get punished or if they lose control in some form. And the temporary "Long-Term" madness is not gonna cut it.
I guess as a prepping, first-time DM, I'm looking for a more effective way of punishing players for being evil instead of Instant death or global mute while not making the detriments seem completely trivial, and I guess I'm wondering how you would/have gone about punishing players for being evil?
I guess it would be better to ask this question then; How do you create a detriment for a player that invested nothing into their backstory so you have nothing that they would even have to RP being affected by it. Lord knows there is gonna be somebody picking Chaotic Neutral as they have for every other game I've played with them who just assigns every single action they make with "Its what my character would do". Somebody who is just there to roll dice and cause "lol, random" or Perception check every room to see what they can steal and immediately move to loot the room before anybody has a chance to say anything, you know? You can't really phase them aside from killing them off or taking the reins from them, and as a DM I don't want to have to do that since I want the players to enjoy the game.
I'll probably go off of what you said and make my own detriments or even a whole list, but what would it even be in that scenario?
I would generally rule that detrimental properties can only be cured once the subject is no longer attuned to the artifact, or alternately, curing the effect removes attunement.
I don't like tables for this kind of thing, it needs to be personal. Find an area where the wishes of the item and the wishes of the PC would be opposed, and create situations that make it happen.
Maybe it resists things that are done clearly in the name of good, imposing disadvantage or something. Maybe it zaps the character with 2d6 lightning damage when they do something it doesn't like, electric-dog-collar style. There is a lot of space between 'no penalty' and 'you are dominated.' Think of it like an unwilling ally that goes along with the hero but takes any opportunity it can to express its distrust and displeasure.
And keep in mind that Chaotic Neutral does not mean "I'm ok with being evil." That's why Chaotic Evil exists.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I could see both of the approaches presented could work, but when this player says "Chaotic Neutral", what they mean is, "I do what I want, when I want and however I want because I want to.", I've already determined that I'm going to be forbidding Chaotic Neutral from even being an option within the campaign because it is obviously a very complicated alignment to approach and is mainly used as a "But I'm NOT evil" argument after they try to shake down merfolk who were trying to escape a hydra by jumping onto a ship that wasn't even owned by somebody in the party. But yes, this player's current PC is by all accounts evil. And while his other characters weren't nearly as bad it is the same premise every time: They do what they want because "Its what their character would do."
Deviating away from flawed alignment systems however, both of these responses are helpful, and I could - At the very least try - to incorporate them both into the campaign, where the detriments are personal, and removing the detriment removes ends your attunement.
What I find annoying is the following minor penalties. Don't understand the logic of permanent penalties being minor.
Minor Detriment
01-05: While attuned to the artifact, you have disadvantage on saving throws against spells.
36-40:While attuned to the artifact, you are physically ill and have disadvantage on any ability check or saving throw that uses Strength or Constitution.
For Reference here are some Major which are all "correctable"
01-05: While you are attuned to the artifact, your body rots over the course of four days, after which the rotting stops. You lose your hair by the end of day 1, finger tips and toe tips by the end of day 2, lips and nose by the end of day 3, and ears by the end of day 4. A regenerate spell restores lost body parts.
61–65: You take 4d10 psychic damage when you become attuned to the artifact.
66–70 You take 8d10 psychic damage when you become attuned to the artifact.
76-80: When you become attuned to the artifact, one of your ability scores is reduced by 2 at random. A greater restoration spell restores the ability to normal.
If you are a DM who is experienced enough to be running a campaign that involves giving PCs access to an evil artifact, you aren't going to be rolling randomly on tables for their effects. If an artifact is included in a campaign at all then you can assume that it's probably the focus of the entire campaign.
It's also more likely, given that the campaign needs to be heavily homebrewed, that the DM will invent their own artifact and not use one from the books. Pre-bought modules, the stats you get for monsters and magical items are like the basic ideas, but also for those who don't have much prep time (and there's nothing wrong with that). An experienced DM is going to create their own monsters, items and campaigns if they have the time because the creating process is part of the fun of being the DM.