Does anyone think that a rogues sneak attack is broken? At high levels 10d6 per hit is like a fireball every round. Shouldn't it be capped at 5d6? A rogue can do more damage with one attack than a fighter with 3 attacks.
It's absolutely not. Consider that a fighter with a greatsword at that level is doing at least (2d6+5) on four attacks at level 20, or written another way, 8d6+20 for 48 average damage.
The rogue with a rapier is doing 1d8+5+10d6 for 44.5 average damage.
Add in magic weapons or any kind of buffs and fighter increases its lead. Give the fighter Great Weapon Master and on a squishy target he almost doubles the rogue's damage.
Does anyone think that a rogues sneak attack is broken? At high levels 10d6 per hit is like a fireball every round. Shouldn't it be capped at 5d6? A rogue can do more damage with one attack than a fighter with 3 attacks.
Sneak attack at best matches other Martials. It rarely beats it ever.
Rogues get one shot. If they miss, they get nothing. If they don’t get sneak attack one turn then you do nothing that turn. And you are not using the strongest weapons with the biggest damage
a fighter or barbarian hit more than one. They add their modifiers more than once. Often they have abilities that add damage to hits. If they miss one, they get another shot or maybe even multiple more shots. I am sure others can provide numbers here
rogues are fine as they are, if perhaps a little weaker than I’d like. And you make the fireball analogy. That’s an interesting one. So at max level rogues can do what a 5th level character can do to a group of enemies, to a single enemy, if you hit. This isn’t a save for half. It’s hit or not. And if we are looking at raw damage, at max level casters get disintegrate, meteor swarm, power word kill, finger of death. Things that can and will do more damage than a rogue will.
Sneak attack isn't OP, it just feels like it sometimes because it's a 'all eggs in one basket' approach where as other martials get multiple attacks. It's only particularly scary when it crits.
Also, fireball isn't really a good comparison. Fireball deals half damage even if the target saves and can hit multiple enemies. If a rogue misses their attack, they deal no damage that turn, unless they're dual wielding and use their bonus action or have some other extra means of attacking like the haste spell.
At 20th level, assuming a rogue is two weapon fighting, each round he has two chances to hit, the first one to hit will do normal damage + 10d6. His weapon will do less damage, being a finesse weapon. And anything that applies disadvantage to him kills the sneak attack, as well as a few other things.
At 20th level a Paladin gets 2 attacks and if he hits with both, can smite twice, doing 6d8 each time. He can do this 6d8 a max of 5 times, but then he smite upto 10 more times at lesser strengths. Max damage for the paladin is higher. 10d8 + two better weapons. Furthermore, once the Paladin hits 11 level, he can add a few levels of Cleric which will increase his spell slots, giving him I think about 4 more 6d8 smites.
Rogue is limited by sneak attack rules, paladin by spell slots.
something as simple as 3 attacks with a longsword with the dueling fighting style and maxed strength deals 3x (1d8+7) = 3d8 + 21 which is 34.5 damage on average which is more than a sneak attack with a longbow until the sneak attack hits 9d6. (1d8+5+8d6 = 33.5 average damage)
Sneak attack is a once per turn only thing. Even if you sacrificed 5 levels to get Extra Attack, you would still only be able to Sneak Attack once per turn (and you would be limiting your sneak attack dice). On top of this, Rogues have a d8 hit die and only get proficiency in up to Medium Armor, so your staying power will lag behind any other martial.
Additionally, there are conditions that must be met for sneak attack (usually not hard to meet, but still there): you cannot have disadvantage, you must have advantage or an enemy of your target within 5 ft. of them, and you may only use ranged or finesse weapons.
They only get Light Armor proficiency, actually, so even less armored and with more incentive to be high DEX and stay out of the front line.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Fireball requires an action, Sneak Attack doesn't.
Fireball requires components or a spell focus, Sneak Attack doesn't.
That's not to say Fireball isn't better than Sneak Attack, but it's not a straight comparison by any means.
What are you talking about? It requires 7th level? The base is 8d6 and it goes up by 1 per level. That’s 5th level spell slots.
a fireball can also be cast more times than spell slots owned if you are a sorcerer
fireball does have limited resources sure. But it’s guaranteed damage. You could attack 12 times and never hit with sneak attack. Unless something is immune a fireball is never wasted. You can also bottle a fireball in a nice scroll for someone else to use
saying sneak attack doesn’t require an action but fireball does is disingenuous at best. Quicken spell fireball is a thing. The only part here that may be a point is I don’t think you can fireball on a reaction outside of held actions
Sneak attack does require components. A suitable weapon. Can’t sneak attack unarmed. Also you can’t have disadvantage. And you have to have advantage, a friend within 5 ft, or a specific condition to use it.
absolutely though fireball and sneak attack are very different. They have different purposes. But from a raw numbers perspective sneak attack isn’t that much damage outside of a critical hit.
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Does anyone think that a rogues sneak attack is broken? At high levels 10d6 per hit is like a fireball every round. Shouldn't it be capped at 5d6? A rogue can do more damage with one attack than a fighter with 3 attacks.
It's absolutely not. Consider that a fighter with a greatsword at that level is doing at least (2d6+5) on four attacks at level 20, or written another way, 8d6+20 for 48 average damage.
The rogue with a rapier is doing 1d8+5+10d6 for 44.5 average damage.
Add in magic weapons or any kind of buffs and fighter increases its lead. Give the fighter Great Weapon Master and on a squishy target he almost doubles the rogue's damage.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Sneak attack at best matches other Martials. It rarely beats it ever.
Rogues get one shot. If they miss, they get nothing. If they don’t get sneak attack one turn then you do nothing that turn. And you are not using the strongest weapons with the biggest damage
a fighter or barbarian hit more than one. They add their modifiers more than once. Often they have abilities that add damage to hits. If they miss one, they get another shot or maybe even multiple more shots. I am sure others can provide numbers here
rogues are fine as they are, if perhaps a little weaker than I’d like. And you make the fireball analogy. That’s an interesting one. So at max level rogues can do what a 5th level character can do to a group of enemies, to a single enemy, if you hit. This isn’t a save for half. It’s hit or not. And if we are looking at raw damage, at max level casters get disintegrate, meteor swarm, power word kill, finger of death. Things that can and will do more damage than a rogue will.
Sneak attack isn't OP, it just feels like it sometimes because it's a 'all eggs in one basket' approach where as other martials get multiple attacks. It's only particularly scary when it crits.
Also, fireball isn't really a good comparison. Fireball deals half damage even if the target saves and can hit multiple enemies. If a rogue misses their attack, they deal no damage that turn, unless they're dual wielding and use their bonus action or have some other extra means of attacking like the haste spell.
Compare a rogue vs a Paladin smiting.
At 20th level, assuming a rogue is two weapon fighting, each round he has two chances to hit, the first one to hit will do normal damage + 10d6. His weapon will do less damage, being a finesse weapon. And anything that applies disadvantage to him kills the sneak attack, as well as a few other things.
At 20th level a Paladin gets 2 attacks and if he hits with both, can smite twice, doing 6d8 each time. He can do this 6d8 a max of 5 times, but then he smite upto 10 more times at lesser strengths. Max damage for the paladin is higher. 10d8 + two better weapons. Furthermore, once the Paladin hits 11 level, he can add a few levels of Cleric which will increase his spell slots, giving him I think about 4 more 6d8 smites.
Rogue is limited by sneak attack rules, paladin by spell slots.
They are very comparable.
something as simple as 3 attacks with a longsword with the dueling fighting style and maxed strength deals 3x (1d8+7) = 3d8 + 21 which is 34.5 damage on average
which is more than a sneak attack with a longbow until the sneak attack hits 9d6. (1d8+5+8d6 = 33.5 average damage)
They only get Light Armor proficiency, actually, so even less armored and with more incentive to be high DEX and stay out of the front line.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Two notes on the Fireball analogy.
That's not to say Fireball isn't better than Sneak Attack, but it's not a straight comparison by any means.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Using fireball on a single target is a terrible use of fireball.
What are you talking about? It requires 7th level? The base is 8d6 and it goes up by 1 per level. That’s 5th level spell slots.
a fireball can also be cast more times than spell slots owned if you are a sorcerer
fireball does have limited resources sure. But it’s guaranteed damage. You could attack 12 times and never hit with sneak attack. Unless something is immune a fireball is never wasted. You can also bottle a fireball in a nice scroll for someone else to use
saying sneak attack doesn’t require an action but fireball does is disingenuous at best. Quicken spell fireball is a thing. The only part here that may be a point is I don’t think you can fireball on a reaction outside of held actions
Sneak attack does require components. A suitable weapon. Can’t sneak attack unarmed. Also you can’t have disadvantage. And you have to have advantage, a friend within 5 ft, or a specific condition to use it.
absolutely though fireball and sneak attack are very different. They have different purposes. But from a raw numbers perspective sneak attack isn’t that much damage outside of a critical hit.