Hi, I used to play AD&D 1st & 2nd, DnD 3.0 and 3.5 (not 4), and Pathfinder. I haven't played DnD for years, but I now I do again, playing DnD5e.
Mostly, I'm positively surprised by the changes. Not having class based THAC0/attack and saving throw tables anymore and not having loads of stacking boni anymore, just proficiencies and advantage/disadvantage and resistance is quite a hard cut, but also quite elegant. Not having several thousands of feats, spells and prestige classes and minimaxing possibilities by combining these features into power builds anymore generally is also a good thing imho.
However, when once upon a time changing an old campaign of mine from AD&D2 to DnD3.0 there was already the issue, that multiclass fighter/rogues had been fine in combining their stuff, while multiclass casters had been totally fu*ked up. Which had been solved in the DnD3.x DMGs by prestige classes like Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge (... Cerebremancer, Psychic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Green Whisperer, Fochlucan Lyrist etc.. ), let alone the Gestalt classes of Unearthed Arcana 3.5.
I understand that you can't just reintroduce the vast host of prestige classes by simply homebrewing them into 5e without seriously overtoppling the entire 5e classes concept.
However it seems to me that this issue now reappers partially. Again, multiclass fighter/rogues are fine, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters have been adressed as class pathes for fighters and rogues, multiclass noncaster/casters are again fu*ked up, multiclass caster/casters are not as fu*ked up as in core 3.0, since they can at least stack their spell slots and can use higher spell slots for augmentation, they don't get higher level spells though. But now, what about multiclass casters like Mystra Cleric/Wizards? With just core 5e in the end you'd just cripple your caster, because he/she'll never get higher level spells in either class if split evenly.
Originally I had the idea of starting as a druid (which I did) and later on multiclass as a bard (following a concept inspired by the AD&D1 bard), but having browsed through the 5e PHB this doesn't seem to be a realistic option unless you want to be sorely incompetent in many things. Some web sources just homebrew in the Mystic Theurge as a new class with prerequistes before multiclassing (essentially like a prestige class of old), but that would open up a whole broad general issue about what about other prestige classes - not really fitting into 5e.
Is there any canon 5e source that adresses this? If not, have other old school players stumbled upon this, and what solutions did they come up with? Is there maybe a bard college (or a wizard school or divine domain) that adresses this?
Is there any canon 5e source that adresses this? If not, have other old school players stumbled upon this, and what solutions did they come up with? Is there maybe a bard college (or a wizard school or divine domain) that adresses this?
I couldn't figure out from your post what you mean by "this", but a multiclass caster in 5E gets the core Mystic Theurge ability of stacking class levels for spells per day.If the issue is that you want to avoid stacking, Warlocks aren't forced to stack their caster levels when they multiclass, so e.g. a Warlock/Sorcerer has the slots of a Warlock plus the slots of a Sorcerer, instead of the slots of a single-classed character like most multiclass casters. If you want to mix arcane and divine spells together without multiclassing, Divine Soul Sorcerers are specifically built to do this, although Lore Bards get additional magical secrets and hence can also mix spells from different lists.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fu*ked" up. 5e is all about trade offs though admittedly there are usually more features in the first few levels so multiclassing tends to favor "dips" rather than full split classes.
If you multiclass a non-caster/caster - you get the abilities of both but you won't necessarily get the highest level spells because you are taking levels in the non-caster class. Which is, frankly, the point.
A fighter 2/wizard X works really well combining a couple of fighter features with the wizard abilities. Similarly, a cleric 1/wizard X also works really well by supplementing the wizard with the armor/shield proficiencies and first level cleric spells.
Having a 10 cleric/10 wizard will get 9th level spell slots but only 5th level spells from each class. This is not "fu*ked" up ... it is a trade off. It is a design decision. Versatility vs higher level spells and honestly a 10 cleric/ 10 wizard would likely play fine in most games.
A multiclass fighter/rogue is "fine"? However, that character gives up the higher level features in both classes - less sneak attack, less higher level fighter features - the same as any of the other combinations. I could be incorrect but it sounds like you'd like casters to be able to access high level spells in a class as long as they have spell slots - but that is broken. A level 10 clerc/ 10 wizard in that case could cast both 9th level cleric and 9th level wizard spells. Why would anyone play a level 20 wizard or 20 cleric in that situation? For 5e a combination like that is more of a gestalt class combining the primary ability of both cleric and wizard together and as a result isn't close to balanced. One of the big considerations in multiclassing casters and any other class is the delay in obtaining features that a player really wants. In the case of a full caster, the delay is in obtaining the next level of spells, in the case of a paladin/warlock or sorcerer the delay is both spells and cool paladin features like the extra attack, the aura or improved divine smite. For fighters, there is the 3rd attack at level 11 but if they multiclass into rogue for a few levels that important feature gets pushed back, if they multiclass enough into rogue they don't get that feature at all. Anyway, in 5e, multiclassing is all about trade offs and it is surprisingly well balanced in most cases.
P.S. The result can be that it can be difficult to replicate some of the higher power character options from the earlier editions without both homebrewing and cutting down on the features to fit a 5e context. You can usually get a similar feel but not everything you might like if you want something playable in 5e.
Hi! Theurge was one of my favorite prestige classes too! I've always loved playing caster hybrids.
So where is the theurge for 5e?
Well, one of the best...imo... is the Divine Soul subclass of sorcerer. They have access to the entire sorcerer and cleric spell lists. They can be a bit tricky to build though, because despite being able to chose freely from two of the best lists, the number of spells they know from those lists is few and need to be selected with care.
But, honestly, that's not the only option. Tbh the Mystic Theurge is best duplicated by simply taking like one level of cleric and the rest wizard. The default multiclass rules ensure you're not suffering for spell throughput. You'll still have the same spell slots as a full single class spellcaster. The tradeoff is now you have 1st level cleric spells and armor. But you don't get new wizard level spells known 1 level behind normal.
Keep in mind in 5e spells can be Upcast. This means that if you have a 5th level slot and no known wizard spells because you multiclassed, you could cast your cleric 1st level Cure Wounds spell as a 5th level spell. Healing 5d8+ instead of the normal 1d8+.
So you can get a lot of mileage out of those 1st level cleric spells. Especially Bless, imo. It is one of the best 1st spells and it loses basically no efficiency as you level up, it always stays a solid spell. Healing Word, too, is great. As it means you can always get an ally up from taking a dirt nap if they got dropped in combat.
Another perk of this multiclass is you can pick up one of the 'blade' cantrips. You'll be in armor and have some weapon proficiency from cleric, and these wizard cantrips can add some boom to your attacks. (Green flame blade or booming blade)
That is another option if you wanted to lean the other direction, cleric with a level of wizard. Though, optimizers will say to go a single level of sorc instead. Since they get basically the same things, practically speaking, but also get a subclass ability at 1st. And that cha is better than int. But I digress...
A Cleric that dips a level into sorc or wiz is also theurge-like. They are for Sure going to snag a blade cantrip. You can wade into battle either blessing yourself and destroying enemies with booming weapons or later spiritual weapons and spiritual Guardians plus booming weapons. Crazy fun. And your level dip is still protecting you in wizardry ways, since you'll have the Shield spell and the Absorb Elements spell. Those are critical elements of wizard defense, and you, a nearly full classed cleric have those plus your own I'm-the-heavy-armor-shield-wielding-healing-juggernaut defenses too.
You'll still wanna think about some character choices though, like what flavor of wizard/sorc, and what subclass of cleric.
I'm a fan of sprinkling in either Peace or Order to my arcane casters. Peace gives an ability that improves based on proficiency bonus, so will continue growing in power even as you level up as wizard. And, Order just makes it so any time you target an ally with a spell they get to take a free attack. That's just always useful since you'd do that even as a wizard.
Divination and Abjuration and Evocation are the three types of wizard I'd suggest but they all could work. Divination and Abjuration just have more cleric-vibes. But Evocation has that punchy wizard feel, and also happens to combo with Order is supper powerful ways. (Evocations Sculpt Spells let's you AOE without hurting allies in the area. But, technically, they're still "affected" by the spells, they just auto-save. Order grants one ally you snag with a spell the option to attack. So this combo can give that boon whether he is buffing or aoeing!)
Anyway. Good luck out there! There are ways to make this multiclass work in really cool and powerful ways.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A multiclass spellcaster trades higher-tier power for access to a broader range of spells. They still get high level slots and can upcast many spells, so I hardly think they're "crippled." A good chunk of the classes in this game get by just fine without high-tier spells.
As a member of a group with several optimizers who have tried hard to break the game, I've come to really appreciate the MC rules of 5th edition. They manage to give you meaningful features of each class while still remaining right around the power level of pure classes. I think any major adjustments to this would have the potential of breaking the balance, especially giving spellcasters more perks. If a Cleric/Wizard could cast everything a Cleric OR Wizard of that level could, there'd be very little reason to ever play a pure-classed Cleric or Wizard.
Thankyou for your thoughts about this issue so far.
So, what do you suggest for a druid who considers multiclassing into bard? Early multiclassing like at druid level 4 or late multiclassing like at druid level 17?
I really like the 5e bard, it almost feels like an Unearthed Arcana 3.5 prestige bard class with the feat Words of Creation (from the Book of Exalted Deeds), which I did play in 3.5.
The AD&D1 celtic/druidic-style bard was a very cool though vastly overpowered class, the AD&D2, 3.0 and 3.5 bard wasn't a cool stand-alone-class imho, but quite cool in multiclass builds, albeit from a DM's perspective prone to abuse exploits (and my DM - rightfully - doesn't like minimaxing).
Bards and druids don't have terribly impressive synergies, and muticlassing at 17th level is pointless.
As far as a mystic theurge character goes, the other option is the Arcana domain for a cleric. You'd be a single-class cleric but with a smattering of wizard spells and some nifty abilities like the ability to end a spell effect on a character you cast a healing spell on, provided the spell effect is the same level or lower than the healing spell you cast.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Thankyou for your thoughts about this issue so far.
So, what do you suggest for a druid who considers multiclassing into bard? Early multiclassing like at druid level 4 or late multiclassing like at druid level 17?
Don't
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It's from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and it's basically the only thing in the book that's A) good and B) hasn't been reprinted in another book so if you want to purchase it on DDB you should get it buy itself rather than buy the whole book.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So, what do you suggest for a druid who considers multiclassing into bard? Early multiclassing like at druid level 4 or late multiclassing like at druid level 17?
I guess I would ask what features exactly do you want from bard, and then try to find a way for you to get something similar from a more compatible source, like feats or Cleric MC.
For example, Peace Cleric's Emboldening Bond can provide an effect very similar to Bardic Inspiration, while allowing you to focus on WIS-casting only instead of needing both WIS and CHA (in addition to what DEX and CON you can spare for defenses).
Hi,
I used to play AD&D 1st & 2nd, DnD 3.0 and 3.5 (not 4), and Pathfinder. I haven't played DnD for years, but I now I do again, playing DnD5e.
Mostly, I'm positively surprised by the changes. Not having class based THAC0/attack and saving throw tables anymore and not having loads of stacking boni anymore, just proficiencies and advantage/disadvantage and resistance is quite a hard cut, but also quite elegant. Not having several thousands of feats, spells and prestige classes and minimaxing possibilities by combining these features into power builds anymore generally is also a good thing imho.
However, when once upon a time changing an old campaign of mine from AD&D2 to DnD3.0 there was already the issue, that multiclass fighter/rogues had been fine in combining their stuff, while multiclass casters had been totally fu*ked up. Which had been solved in the DnD3.x DMGs by prestige classes like Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge (... Cerebremancer, Psychic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Green Whisperer, Fochlucan Lyrist etc.. ), let alone the Gestalt classes of Unearthed Arcana 3.5.
I understand that you can't just reintroduce the vast host of prestige classes by simply homebrewing them into 5e without seriously overtoppling the entire 5e classes concept.
However it seems to me that this issue now reappers partially. Again, multiclass fighter/rogues are fine, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters have been adressed as class pathes for fighters and rogues, multiclass noncaster/casters are again fu*ked up, multiclass caster/casters are not as fu*ked up as in core 3.0, since they can at least stack their spell slots and can use higher spell slots for augmentation, they don't get higher level spells though. But now, what about multiclass casters like Mystra Cleric/Wizards? With just core 5e in the end you'd just cripple your caster, because he/she'll never get higher level spells in either class if split evenly.
Originally I had the idea of starting as a druid (which I did) and later on multiclass as a bard (following a concept inspired by the AD&D1 bard), but having browsed through the 5e PHB this doesn't seem to be a realistic option unless you want to be sorely incompetent in many things. Some web sources just homebrew in the Mystic Theurge as a new class with prerequistes before multiclassing (essentially like a prestige class of old), but that would open up a whole broad general issue about what about other prestige classes - not really fitting into 5e.
Is there any canon 5e source that adresses this? If not, have other old school players stumbled upon this, and what solutions did they come up with? Is there maybe a bard college (or a wizard school or divine domain) that adresses this?
I couldn't figure out from your post what you mean by "this", but a multiclass caster in 5E gets the core Mystic Theurge ability of stacking class levels for spells per day. If the issue is that you want to avoid stacking, Warlocks aren't forced to stack their caster levels when they multiclass, so e.g. a Warlock/Sorcerer has the slots of a Warlock plus the slots of a Sorcerer, instead of the slots of a single-classed character like most multiclass casters. If you want to mix arcane and divine spells together without multiclassing, Divine Soul Sorcerers are specifically built to do this, although Lore Bards get additional magical secrets and hence can also mix spells from different lists.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fu*ked" up. 5e is all about trade offs though admittedly there are usually more features in the first few levels so multiclassing tends to favor "dips" rather than full split classes.
If you multiclass a non-caster/caster - you get the abilities of both but you won't necessarily get the highest level spells because you are taking levels in the non-caster class. Which is, frankly, the point.
A fighter 2/wizard X works really well combining a couple of fighter features with the wizard abilities. Similarly, a cleric 1/wizard X also works really well by supplementing the wizard with the armor/shield proficiencies and first level cleric spells.
Having a 10 cleric/10 wizard will get 9th level spell slots but only 5th level spells from each class. This is not "fu*ked" up ... it is a trade off. It is a design decision. Versatility vs higher level spells and honestly a 10 cleric/ 10 wizard would likely play fine in most games.
A multiclass fighter/rogue is "fine"? However, that character gives up the higher level features in both classes - less sneak attack, less higher level fighter features - the same as any of the other combinations. I could be incorrect but it sounds like you'd like casters to be able to access high level spells in a class as long as they have spell slots - but that is broken. A level 10 clerc/ 10 wizard in that case could cast both 9th level cleric and 9th level wizard spells. Why would anyone play a level 20 wizard or 20 cleric in that situation? For 5e a combination like that is more of a gestalt class combining the primary ability of both cleric and wizard together and as a result isn't close to balanced. One of the big considerations in multiclassing casters and any other class is the delay in obtaining features that a player really wants. In the case of a full caster, the delay is in obtaining the next level of spells, in the case of a paladin/warlock or sorcerer the delay is both spells and cool paladin features like the extra attack, the aura or improved divine smite. For fighters, there is the 3rd attack at level 11 but if they multiclass into rogue for a few levels that important feature gets pushed back, if they multiclass enough into rogue they don't get that feature at all. Anyway, in 5e, multiclassing is all about trade offs and it is surprisingly well balanced in most cases.
P.S. The result can be that it can be difficult to replicate some of the higher power character options from the earlier editions without both homebrewing and cutting down on the features to fit a 5e context. You can usually get a similar feel but not everything you might like if you want something playable in 5e.
Hi! Theurge was one of my favorite prestige classes too! I've always loved playing caster hybrids.
So where is the theurge for 5e?
Well, one of the best...imo... is the Divine Soul subclass of sorcerer. They have access to the entire sorcerer and cleric spell lists. They can be a bit tricky to build though, because despite being able to chose freely from two of the best lists, the number of spells they know from those lists is few and need to be selected with care.
But, honestly, that's not the only option. Tbh the Mystic Theurge is best duplicated by simply taking like one level of cleric and the rest wizard. The default multiclass rules ensure you're not suffering for spell throughput. You'll still have the same spell slots as a full single class spellcaster. The tradeoff is now you have 1st level cleric spells and armor. But you don't get new wizard level spells known 1 level behind normal.
Keep in mind in 5e spells can be Upcast. This means that if you have a 5th level slot and no known wizard spells because you multiclassed, you could cast your cleric 1st level Cure Wounds spell as a 5th level spell. Healing 5d8+ instead of the normal 1d8+.
So you can get a lot of mileage out of those 1st level cleric spells. Especially Bless, imo. It is one of the best 1st spells and it loses basically no efficiency as you level up, it always stays a solid spell. Healing Word, too, is great. As it means you can always get an ally up from taking a dirt nap if they got dropped in combat.
Another perk of this multiclass is you can pick up one of the 'blade' cantrips. You'll be in armor and have some weapon proficiency from cleric, and these wizard cantrips can add some boom to your attacks. (Green flame blade or booming blade)
That is another option if you wanted to lean the other direction, cleric with a level of wizard. Though, optimizers will say to go a single level of sorc instead. Since they get basically the same things, practically speaking, but also get a subclass ability at 1st. And that cha is better than int. But I digress...
A Cleric that dips a level into sorc or wiz is also theurge-like. They are for Sure going to snag a blade cantrip. You can wade into battle either blessing yourself and destroying enemies with booming weapons or later spiritual weapons and spiritual Guardians plus booming weapons. Crazy fun. And your level dip is still protecting you in wizardry ways, since you'll have the Shield spell and the Absorb Elements spell. Those are critical elements of wizard defense, and you, a nearly full classed cleric have those plus your own I'm-the-heavy-armor-shield-wielding-healing-juggernaut defenses too.
You'll still wanna think about some character choices though, like what flavor of wizard/sorc, and what subclass of cleric.
I'm a fan of sprinkling in either Peace or Order to my arcane casters. Peace gives an ability that improves based on proficiency bonus, so will continue growing in power even as you level up as wizard. And, Order just makes it so any time you target an ally with a spell they get to take a free attack. That's just always useful since you'd do that even as a wizard.
Divination and Abjuration and Evocation are the three types of wizard I'd suggest but they all could work. Divination and Abjuration just have more cleric-vibes. But Evocation has that punchy wizard feel, and also happens to combo with Order is supper powerful ways. (Evocations Sculpt Spells let's you AOE without hurting allies in the area. But, technically, they're still "affected" by the spells, they just auto-save. Order grants one ally you snag with a spell the option to attack. So this combo can give that boon whether he is buffing or aoeing!)
Anyway. Good luck out there! There are ways to make this multiclass work in really cool and powerful ways.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A multiclass spellcaster trades higher-tier power for access to a broader range of spells. They still get high level slots and can upcast many spells, so I hardly think they're "crippled." A good chunk of the classes in this game get by just fine without high-tier spells.
As a member of a group with several optimizers who have tried hard to break the game, I've come to really appreciate the MC rules of 5th edition. They manage to give you meaningful features of each class while still remaining right around the power level of pure classes. I think any major adjustments to this would have the potential of breaking the balance, especially giving spellcasters more perks. If a Cleric/Wizard could cast everything a Cleric OR Wizard of that level could, there'd be very little reason to ever play a pure-classed Cleric or Wizard.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Thankyou for your thoughts about this issue so far.
So, what do you suggest for a druid who considers multiclassing into bard? Early multiclassing like at druid level 4 or late multiclassing like at druid level 17?
I really like the 5e bard, it almost feels like an Unearthed Arcana 3.5 prestige bard class with the feat Words of Creation (from the Book of Exalted Deeds), which I did play in 3.5.
The AD&D1 celtic/druidic-style bard was a very cool though vastly overpowered class, the AD&D2, 3.0 and 3.5 bard wasn't a cool stand-alone-class imho, but quite cool in multiclass builds, albeit from a DM's perspective prone to abuse exploits (and my DM - rightfully - doesn't like minimaxing).
Bards and druids don't have terribly impressive synergies, and muticlassing at 17th level is pointless.
As far as a mystic theurge character goes, the other option is the Arcana domain for a cleric. You'd be a single-class cleric but with a smattering of wizard spells and some nifty abilities like the ability to end a spell effect on a character you cast a healing spell on, provided the spell effect is the same level or lower than the healing spell you cast.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Don't
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Arcana Domain is from what source? Canon?
Yes the PHBsword coastI'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Well, my PHB 5e has the following domains: Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, War.
Did you mean Knowledge?
It's from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and it's basically the only thing in the book that's A) good and B) hasn't been reprinted in another book so if you want to purchase it on DDB you should get it buy itself rather than buy the whole book.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I guess I would ask what features exactly do you want from bard, and then try to find a way for you to get something similar from a more compatible source, like feats or Cleric MC.
For example, Peace Cleric's Emboldening Bond can provide an effect very similar to Bardic Inspiration, while allowing you to focus on WIS-casting only instead of needing both WIS and CHA (in addition to what DEX and CON you can spare for defenses).
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm