I would think that mere mortals are limited to 9th level spells, but what about demigods, divinity and deep level demon lords such as Asmodeous? Anyone have a thought on this? I will say in advance, if it’s already mentioned somewhere in a source book, I missed it.
My understanding is that after Karsus' Folly (dude tried to gain more magical power, deity level), and Mystryl's sacrifice to fix things (god of magic, creator of the Weave), the reincarnated god of magic Mystra recreated the Weave and established that only magic of the 9th level and lower would function. Basically, Karsus ruined it for everyone and the god in charge of the source of magic said "Ok we're done, new limits." Supposedly - and I could be wrong - but all magic flows through the Weave so the limitors placed on it affect most/all (not sure about gods, since they created it).
Most of the creatures you mention, gods for example, don’t have game stats for a reason. In this edition, they can basically do whatever they want, which is to say, whatever the DM wants them to be able to do. I’d shy away from thinking of it in spell/ rules terms. But if I were going to, I’d say it’s like having Wish, with no chance of failure or it going wrong, unlimited times/day, and without any limitations.
This is both a lore and a rules thing. Rules have always set L9 as max for PCs and that was that for most of the different supported worlds. In Forgotten Realms however Greenwood ( it’s creator) included the historical lore of Netheril with L10 and even L11 spells ( Karsus’s folly spell) along with Elven High Magic that allowed the elves to create Mythal. This was in AD&D where elves were limited to L11 as magic users so High Magic provided a way for DMs to have elven NPCs get access to L6+ spells. Later (in 3.x I think) WOTC CAME OUT WITH THE EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK giving rules for “epic magic” that allowed L21+ characters to access magic past L9 including creating Mythals. 4e of course completely messed all this up and 5e RAW caps class levels at 20 and magic at L9 so there is no need ( by RAW) for epic magic, elven high magic or L10+ spells. WOTC actually had a Netherese box set for a while and a substantially different but similar magic system that included L10 spells so there are some resources you can investigate if you want to go off RAW and open up some type of epic magic for demigods, etc.
I think with spells/magic above level 9 it become more about 'Legendary Actions' where powerful being can effectively break the rules by being about to do extra epic stuff. If you're exploring tweaking the rules around high level spells, perhaps you can go down that path like a wizards signature spell capability, rather than create overpowered spells that throws out the balance of the game.
9th level magic *is* the magic of demigods and arch-devils. That's just how powerful 20th level characters are. As far as full-blown deities, you don't need spell levels to say "let it be so", just have the DM say it is so.
From the time you decide there's an exclusive 10th level of spells reserved for only demigods and above - until the players begin casting those spells. At best, a month.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Wish but without the 1/3rd chance of losing the spell. The ability to upcast spells like Meteor Swarm. Those are two things you could do with 10th level and higher slots that are off the top of my head without any creativity whatsoever.
The problem with higher level slots is really coming up with new spells; most things more powerful than 9th level spells will refresh just as often but are too powerful for once a day, eg the safer version of Wish I suggested. You could have them refresh once a week or so instead, or do things like being able to cast a spell that refreshes so many spell slots etc. There's not much that's new, interesting and can't be better done with current slots.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Perhaps a better way to think of >L9 spells is like they did with Epic magic in 3.x - they are all essentially non combat ritual spells. In many cases they also draw on the life force(s) of the caster(s) to activate and power the spells. When gods cast these spells they draw a minute amount from all their believers typically without harming them or even their knowing. ( if you drew a thousandth of a hit point from 100,000 believers you would have a 100 HP to invest in such a spell - something that would kill most casters.
I think of it as level 9 spells being the limit of PC power. As the DM's power has no limit but their imagination and the vague boundaries of fairness and fun, anything beyond that is fully under their control. To that end, saying a particular effect is a "10th level spell" implies that it's a part of the same spectrum as other PC spells, and thus potentially attainable by PCs. So better to just not do that. Monsters have always had powers and features outside of the list of PC features and spells. God-tier magic falls under that category.
From the time you decide there's an exclusive 10th level of spells reserved for only demigods and above - until the players begin casting those spells. At best, a month.
Use older iteration rules to aid with this. from 3.x: Requires an Epic Feat (Not to be confused with epic boons) to gain a 10th level slot (Epic feats not available until Class Level 21 minimum) From 1&2e: Epic level spells require multiple casters, the first time a character casts the spell it always fails (If even one character has never tried to cast this spell once before it will fail). the spell costs HP to cast - roll 20d10 when casting this damage is shared out to all casters (a sacrifice may be used to pay the majority of this price but all Damage rolled must be paid Casters must be FULL casters. etc... no slippery slope. we went from 1974 to 2000 without it being an "everyone and their siblings must have/want 10th level spells" the hobby then went from 2000 to 2008 without there being a hue and cry for allowing EPIC LEVEL spells. I think the hobby will survive.
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I would think that mere mortals are limited to 9th level spells, but what about demigods, divinity and deep level demon lords such as Asmodeous? Anyone have a thought on this? I will say in advance, if it’s already mentioned somewhere in a source book, I missed it.
My understanding is that after Karsus' Folly (dude tried to gain more magical power, deity level), and Mystryl's sacrifice to fix things (god of magic, creator of the Weave), the reincarnated god of magic Mystra recreated the Weave and established that only magic of the 9th level and lower would function. Basically, Karsus ruined it for everyone and the god in charge of the source of magic said "Ok we're done, new limits." Supposedly - and I could be wrong - but all magic flows through the Weave so the limitors placed on it affect most/all (not sure about gods, since they created it).
More of a Lore thing than anything, I guess.
There's also elven high magic (probably never mentioned in the 5e lore but..), which is stronger than level 9
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elven_high_magic
Most of the creatures you mention, gods for example, don’t have game stats for a reason. In this edition, they can basically do whatever they want, which is to say, whatever the DM wants them to be able to do.
I’d shy away from thinking of it in spell/ rules terms. But if I were going to, I’d say it’s like having Wish, with no chance of failure or it going wrong, unlimited times/day, and without any limitations.
This is both a lore and a rules thing. Rules have always set L9 as max for PCs and that was that for most of the different supported worlds. In Forgotten Realms however Greenwood ( it’s creator) included the historical lore of Netheril with L10 and even L11 spells ( Karsus’s folly spell) along with Elven High Magic that allowed the elves to create Mythal. This was in AD&D where elves were limited to L11 as magic users so High Magic provided a way for DMs to have elven NPCs get access to L6+ spells. Later (in 3.x I think) WOTC CAME OUT WITH THE EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK giving rules for “epic magic” that allowed L21+ characters to access magic past L9 including creating Mythals. 4e of course completely messed all this up and 5e RAW caps class levels at 20 and magic at L9 so there is no need ( by RAW) for epic magic, elven high magic or L10+ spells. WOTC actually had a Netherese box set for a while and a substantially different but similar magic system that included L10 spells so there are some resources you can investigate if you want to go off RAW and open up some type of epic magic for demigods, etc.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think with spells/magic above level 9 it become more about 'Legendary Actions' where powerful being can effectively break the rules by being about to do extra epic stuff. If you're exploring tweaking the rules around high level spells, perhaps you can go down that path like a wizards signature spell capability, rather than create overpowered spells that throws out the balance of the game.
9th level magic *is* the magic of demigods and arch-devils. That's just how powerful 20th level characters are. As far as full-blown deities, you don't need spell levels to say "let it be so", just have the DM say it is so.
Slippery slope. I give it a month.
From the time you decide there's an exclusive 10th level of spells reserved for only demigods and above - until the players begin casting those spells. At best, a month.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
To your question a question... 9th level spells include wish. What could 10th and 11th level spells contribute that isn't already covered?
Wish but without the 1/3rd chance of losing the spell. The ability to upcast spells like Meteor Swarm. Those are two things you could do with 10th level and higher slots that are off the top of my head without any creativity whatsoever.
The problem with higher level slots is really coming up with new spells; most things more powerful than 9th level spells will refresh just as often but are too powerful for once a day, eg the safer version of Wish I suggested. You could have them refresh once a week or so instead, or do things like being able to cast a spell that refreshes so many spell slots etc. There's not much that's new, interesting and can't be better done with current slots.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Perhaps a better way to think of >L9 spells is like they did with Epic magic in 3.x - they are all essentially non combat ritual spells. In many cases they also draw on the life force(s) of the caster(s) to activate and power the spells. When gods cast these spells they draw a minute amount from all their believers typically without harming them or even their knowing. ( if you drew a thousandth of a hit point from 100,000 believers you would have a 100 HP to invest in such a spell - something that would kill most casters.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think of it as level 9 spells being the limit of PC power. As the DM's power has no limit but their imagination and the vague boundaries of fairness and fun, anything beyond that is fully under their control. To that end, saying a particular effect is a "10th level spell" implies that it's a part of the same spectrum as other PC spells, and thus potentially attainable by PCs. So better to just not do that. Monsters have always had powers and features outside of the list of PC features and spells. God-tier magic falls under that category.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
An NPC using a magical ability that's more powerful than a 9th level spell doesn't need to be labeled a spell.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Use older iteration rules to aid with this.
from 3.x: Requires an Epic Feat (Not to be confused with epic boons) to gain a 10th level slot (Epic feats not available until Class Level 21 minimum)
From 1&2e: Epic level spells require multiple casters, the first time a character casts the spell it always fails (If even one character has never tried to cast this spell once before it will fail).
the spell costs HP to cast - roll 20d10 when casting this damage is shared out to all casters (a sacrifice may be used to pay the majority of this price but all Damage rolled must be paid
Casters must be FULL casters.
etc...
no slippery slope.
we went from 1974 to 2000 without it being an "everyone and their siblings must have/want 10th level spells"
the hobby then went from 2000 to 2008 without there being a hue and cry for allowing EPIC LEVEL spells.
I think the hobby will survive.