No, you can't. The Echo Knights echo isn't a creature, it's an effect of an ability with HP and AC. You can only flank with another creature (amongst other stipulations).
Now this brings up an interesting question, can your ECHO flank with another creature? It can't provide flanking but can it be given the flanking bonus?
Yeah, this Echo thing is weird... I would almost rule that it will give you the Flanking Bonus as it can be seen as threatening. I would naturally have agreed with @Davedamon until I read the following
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
Which implies that the Echo is a reasonable Threat to the target it's next to. Unlike spells like Silent Image which just creates an image that can't harm a creature directly, this Echo can.
Basically I believe it is not intended to give you a flanking bonus, as a DM, I would probably overrule that as, realistically that creature would be technically threatened from multiple sides.
Flanking isn't based on threat though, it's based on having an ally opposite
Flanking on Squares. When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.
The echo doesn't count as an ally as it's not a creature, it's an ability effect.
Obviously, of course the ever present clause of "the DM can change whatever they wish" is in effect. I just don't think this was the intent otherwise
a. the echo would've been classed as a creature or b. the echo would'be been classed as an ally or c. a clause would've been added for it counting for the purposes of flanking
It's an entity that can in theory hit the target, How is that not an ally? If I remember correctly cant a familiar be used for the purpose of flanking?
Are you seriously trying to say, I should be more afraid of a 6 inch cat than an entire armored fighter? To be fair, I can't find anywhere that specifically says a Familiar can't be used to grant or not great flanking.
EDIT: To be clear, I agree with you on the fact, that it was probably intended to be treated similar to Spiritual Weapon. However, as a DM, when using the flanking rule. It generally goes like this.
I basically consider, would the target feel the need to protect itself from both sides?
Yes, its flanking.
No, its not flanking than.
Because it's kinda crazy that a 6-12 inch cat can be considered enough of a threat/distraction to a 6 foot thug to grant you flanking, but a giant floating scythe is not. I am saying personally as a DM I would rule as it counts for flanking, because with intelligence would know they need to protect itself from the Echo.
It's an effect like Bigby's Hand. It isn't a creature and doesn't have a mind of its own and therefore doesn't count as an ally.
However, the DM is allowed to say otherwise as there is no rule definition for "ally". Even Jeremy Crawford was pretty vague on the question of "what counts as an ally". He rules that an "ally" is someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. The echo is neither a creature nor has a mind of its own, so it can't cooperate. It only does what you control it to do. I'd say it's "open enough" to DM interpretation, but I would rule no.
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I'd personally rule that just for the purpose of Sneak attack and flanking for allies, it would work. (Todd and James even say something like it in the Preview video)
I have questions about the Echo Avatar ability personally but that's for a different topic later lol
The heavy push for Echoes to be used for auto-flanking is mostly an indication of how overpowered and stupid the default flanking rule is. I really hate it. Advantage on the attack is too much and eliminates too many other options for gaining advantage.
Flanking a critter should have some benefit, and frankly if the rule wasn't dumb I'd probably reason that the Echo would grant the bonus simply because in effect it acts as a second fighter, with the abilities of perfect coordination between the Knight and their Echo offsetting the Echo's limited volition, but that bonus is not and should not be free advantage forever. Ugh.
If you're asking if it can be the target of Sentinel, the wording of Sentinel includes "when you hit a creature", "creatures provoke opportunity attacks", and "when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack". Since the echo is not a creature, but an effect with a manifested shape and its own statistics similar to bigby's hand, I'd rule no.
If you're asking whether it can make the opportunity attack or reaction attack, it does not possess your feats.
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I was referring to the latter, but the other clarification is helpful too.
My point of contention comes from the following text:
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
Were i in the echo's space and made an opportunity attack, it would get the sentinel effect.
I was referring to the latter, but the other clarification is helpful too.
My point of contention comes from the following text:
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
Were i in the echo's space and made an opportunity attack, it would get the sentinel effect.
Since you would be using your Reaction to take the AoO, then yes Sentinel would apply. It isn't the Echo do it.
Since the echo is a feature, and not an “ally” creature, technically it does not flank.
While Matt Mercer does seem to agree that this isn't intended to grant a flanking bonus, I think it's unfortunate. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that an ally needs to be a creature and even the flanking rules from the DMG only specify the existence of one creature needed for flanking to occur. Though I suppose this is where people what would constitute the true definition of an "ally" or what is a "person" since language is a fickle thing.
Since the echo is a feature, and not an “ally” creature, technically it does not flank.
While Matt Mercer does seem to agree that this isn't intended to grant a flanking bonus, I think it's unfortunate. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that an ally needs to be a creature and even the flanking rules from the DMG only specify the existence of one creature needed for flanking to occur. Though I suppose this is where people what would constitute the true definition of an "ally" or what is a "person" since language is a fickle thing.
D&D uses natural language in many places, and since that there are only really three type of entity; creature, object or effect, it seems logical that an 'ally' would refer to a creature. You would not consider a wall an ally, nor would you consider the effect magic missile or fairy fire an ally.
The rules do support this as every time the word 'ally' is used, it's in reference to a non-hostile creature
"You would not consider a wall an ally" You ever watch boxing and see a boxer get trapped in a corner? Ever trip over a log or uneven flooring? Terrain is very much considered an ally to combatants. Pretty certain Leonidas would not have lasted as long as he did if not for the terrain. That said, I know the rules of the game don't really take into account such things, but in combat I certainly would not want to be trapped between a wall and a monster. Now mechanically, I would agree with many that the Echo shouldn't grant you advantage. That said I would say when the echo makes it's attack, that it SHOULD have advantage. It may not be a creature, but you certainly are. So using previous posters comments that a creature has to give advantage, so any attacks the echo makes with you flanking the creature should give advantage.
That said, put yourself in the spot of the target. A person comes at you with a weapon, then suddenly another person comes from out of no where behind you and both can make very real attacks, I would certainly feel at a disadvantage.
"You would not consider a wall an ally" You ever watch boxing and see a boxer get trapped in a corner? Ever trip over a log or uneven flooring? Terrain is very much considered an ally to combatants. Pretty certain Leonidas would not have lasted as long as he did if not for the terrain. That said, I know the rules of the game don't really take into account such things, but in combat I certainly would not want to be trapped between a wall and a monster. Now mechanically, I would agree with many that the Echo shouldn't grant you advantage. That said I would say when the echo makes it's attack, that it SHOULD have advantage. It may not be a creature, but you certainly are. So using previous posters comments that a creature has to give advantage, so any attacks the echo makes with you flanking the creature should give advantage.
That said, put yourself in the spot of the target. A person comes at you with a weapon, then suddenly another person comes from out of no where behind you and both can make very real attacks, I would certainly feel at a disadvantage.
As DM, you are allowed to give advantage to your players because of a wall if you like. As DM, you can allow your players to gain advantage with the Echo.
Oh I know, and said as much. They are as written rather inflexable, but DM is given the ability to bend as needed. I am 100% on board with you there. My point is that while the PC shouldn't get Advantage on attack rolls, the echo should.
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Pretty simple question: Can you flank with your echo as an echo knight?
At first I thought this was an oversight, but echos do only have 1 HP. I dunno, thoughts?
No, you can't. The Echo Knights echo isn't a creature, it's an effect of an ability with HP and AC. You can only flank with another creature (amongst other stipulations).
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Ah thank you, that clears things up.
Now this brings up an interesting question, can your ECHO flank with another creature? It can't provide flanking but can it be given the flanking bonus?
Yeah, this Echo thing is weird... I would almost rule that it will give you the Flanking Bonus as it can be seen as threatening. I would naturally have agreed with @Davedamon until I read the following
Which implies that the Echo is a reasonable Threat to the target it's next to. Unlike spells like Silent Image which just creates an image that can't harm a creature directly, this Echo can.
Basically I believe it is not intended to give you a flanking bonus, as a DM, I would probably overrule that as, realistically that creature would be technically threatened from multiple sides.
Flanking isn't based on threat though, it's based on having an ally opposite
The echo doesn't count as an ally as it's not a creature, it's an ability effect.
Obviously, of course the ever present clause of "the DM can change whatever they wish" is in effect. I just don't think this was the intent otherwise
a. the echo would've been classed as a creature
or
b. the echo would'be been classed as an ally
or
c. a clause would've been added for it counting for the purposes of flanking
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It's an entity that can in theory hit the target, How is that not an ally? If I remember correctly cant a familiar be used for the purpose of flanking?
Are you seriously trying to say, I should be more afraid of a 6 inch cat than an entire armored fighter? To be fair, I can't find anywhere that specifically says a Familiar can't be used to grant or not great flanking.
EDIT: To be clear, I agree with you on the fact, that it was probably intended to be treated similar to Spiritual Weapon. However, as a DM, when using the flanking rule. It generally goes like this.
I basically consider, would the target feel the need to protect itself from both sides?
Because it's kinda crazy that a 6-12 inch cat can be considered enough of a threat/distraction to a 6 foot thug to grant you flanking, but a giant floating scythe is not. I am saying personally as a DM I would rule as it counts for flanking, because with intelligence would know they need to protect itself from the Echo.
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ModeratorIt's an effect like Bigby's Hand. It isn't a creature and doesn't have a mind of its own and therefore doesn't count as an ally.
However, the DM is allowed to say otherwise as there is no rule definition for "ally". Even Jeremy Crawford was pretty vague on the question of "what counts as an ally". He rules that an "ally" is someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. The echo is neither a creature nor has a mind of its own, so it can't cooperate. It only does what you control it to do. I'd say it's "open enough" to DM interpretation, but I would rule no.
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Spiritual Weapon and Flaming Sphere are threats, but are not creatures or allies and do not provide or receive a flanking bonus. Same with an Echo.
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I'd personally rule that just for the purpose of Sneak attack and flanking for allies, it would work. (Todd and James even say something like it in the Preview video)
I have questions about the Echo Avatar ability personally but that's for a different topic later lol
The heavy push for Echoes to be used for auto-flanking is mostly an indication of how overpowered and stupid the default flanking rule is. I really hate it. Advantage on the attack is too much and eliminates too many other options for gaining advantage.
Flanking a critter should have some benefit, and frankly if the rule wasn't dumb I'd probably reason that the Echo would grant the bonus simply because in effect it acts as a second fighter, with the abilities of perfect coordination between the Knight and their Echo offsetting the Echo's limited volition, but that bonus is not and should not be free advantage forever. Ugh.
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Here's another question while you guys are at it:
Can an echo trigger sentinel?
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ModeratorIf you're asking if it can be the target of Sentinel, the wording of Sentinel includes "when you hit a creature", "creatures provoke opportunity attacks", and "when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack". Since the echo is not a creature, but an effect with a manifested shape and its own statistics similar to bigby's hand, I'd rule no.
If you're asking whether it can make the opportunity attack or reaction attack, it does not possess your feats.
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I was referring to the latter, but the other clarification is helpful too.
My point of contention comes from the following text:
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
Were i in the echo's space and made an opportunity attack, it would get the sentinel effect.
Since you would be using your Reaction to take the AoO, then yes Sentinel would apply. It isn't the Echo do it.
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While Matt Mercer does seem to agree that this isn't intended to grant a flanking bonus, I think it's unfortunate. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that an ally needs to be a creature and even the flanking rules from the DMG only specify the existence of one creature needed for flanking to occur. Though I suppose this is where people what would constitute the true definition of an "ally" or what is a "person" since language is a fickle thing.
D&D uses natural language in many places, and since that there are only really three type of entity; creature, object or effect, it seems logical that an 'ally' would refer to a creature. You would not consider a wall an ally, nor would you consider the effect magic missile or fairy fire an ally.
The rules do support this as every time the word 'ally' is used, it's in reference to a non-hostile creature
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
"You would not consider a wall an ally" You ever watch boxing and see a boxer get trapped in a corner? Ever trip over a log or uneven flooring? Terrain is very much considered an ally to combatants. Pretty certain Leonidas would not have lasted as long as he did if not for the terrain. That said, I know the rules of the game don't really take into account such things, but in combat I certainly would not want to be trapped between a wall and a monster. Now mechanically, I would agree with many that the Echo shouldn't grant you advantage. That said I would say when the echo makes it's attack, that it SHOULD have advantage. It may not be a creature, but you certainly are. So using previous posters comments that a creature has to give advantage, so any attacks the echo makes with you flanking the creature should give advantage.
That said, put yourself in the spot of the target. A person comes at you with a weapon, then suddenly another person comes from out of no where behind you and both can make very real attacks, I would certainly feel at a disadvantage.
As DM, you are allowed to give advantage to your players because of a wall if you like. As DM, you can allow your players to gain advantage with the Echo.
Point is, the Rules as Written do not allow it.
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Oh I know, and said as much. They are as written rather inflexable, but DM is given the ability to bend as needed. I am 100% on board with you there. My point is that while the PC shouldn't get Advantage on attack rolls, the echo should.