And no, I'm not talking about when you add the feat to it, because then you have to waste a feat.


Basically you have a 2-8 two-handed weapon - yes, 2-8 - that also lets you consume your bonus action for 1-4 more damage but this is a separate attack roll since it counts as a separate attack. It's only Two-Handed and Special. Its feat can only be obtained if you're of a certain race.

Compare that to the Greatsword. It's 2-12 on a single attack roll. It has the Heavy property, which is beneficial since you can use the Great Weapon Mastery feat with the two-handed property's Great Weapon Fighting style.

You can use one-handed weapons to dual wield which can get you to that potential 12 damage as well.

Additionally, DBS is 100 gp even though it's literally just two scimitars smelted together, and a scimitar is 25 gp.


I've been trying to balanced my homebrewed Spiked Chain against DBS but realized... I can't. If I nerfed my SC even more, it couldn't contend with other weapons. My weapon is balanced against greatsword and other weapons, but not DBS.

I know the general rule of thumb is that if your weapon is another weapon but better, then your weapon isn't balanced. But that's wrong - because my weapon IS balanced, against everything except DBS.

DBS just sucks. Maybe if it was actually made 50-60 gp, and given the Versatile property (it would still be two-handed but its one-handed would be less yet allow for grabs, cuz basically it would just be a scimitar in its versatile state), it would be fine. Heck, even changing the feat so anyone could get it would be nice. But as it stands, DBS just sucks and it is weaker than other weapons, period.

Double bladed scimitar is a thematic weapon more than being a tactically viable one. It's meant to be wielded as an ancestral weapon by one particular clan of elves in the Eberron setting, not used as a generally viable combat tool everywhere.

I'd have to agree.  When I saw the name, I was immediately excited.  Then I saw the damage dice and all my excitement was gone.  You get the Dagger's damage die twice.  Oh, or 3 times if you throw your Bonus Action at it, as well.

You get pretty much the same damage potential by dual wielding a pair of Sickles.  And that would only set you back 2 gp, rather than 25.  Did I mention it's a Simple weapon instead?

The cost can largely be ignored because either

a. You're using the weapon in Eberron in which case you're either an elf and it's a family heriloom or you took it from an elf/were gifted it by an elf (very uncommon)

or

b. You're not playing in Eberron and the DM can price it however they like.

The price is merely an indicator of how easy it is to obtain; more expensive items are harder to obtain than cheaper ones.

 I mean it does let a halfling paladin use great weapon fighting style and make 2 smites on the first turn of combat with no feat investment. No other weapons can do that.

It is honestly a decent weapon. It competes with pole arm master in terms of damage by itself. And it out performs 2 weapon builds.

So it only does less damage per hit than the most damaging weapons in the game. So does every other weapon.

I wouldn't say it outperforms 2 weapon builds. 2 weapon builds have a style and feat(s) over DBS's one style, not including the DBS-specific feat which is really not that good compared to other feats.

The thing with weapons that aren't the most damaging is that their properties, and by extension the classes that are meant to use them, allow them to increase damage or at least fight against bad rolls to the point that they outperform DBS. DBS only has the two-handed property, it isn't simple, and you have to make a second attack roll for its extra 1-4 damage, plus its feat is outperformed by other feats.

To be honest, DBS's damage and special are fine. But it needs an extra property, such as versatile, to help it compete with other weapons.

Quote from Rezilia >>

I wouldn't say it outperforms 2 weapon builds. 2 weapon builds have a style and feat(s) over DBS's one style, not including the DBS-specific feat which is really not that good compared to other feats.

The thing with weapons that aren't the most damaging is that their properties, and by extension the classes that are meant to use them, allow them to increase damage or at least fight against bad rolls to the point that they outperform DBS. DBS only has the two-handed property, it isn't simple, and you have to make a second attack roll for its extra 1-4 damage, plus its feat is outperformed by other feats.

To be honest, DBS's damage and special are fine. But it needs an extra property, such as versatile, to help it compete with other weapons.

 2 weapon needs a fighting style just to be nearly equal to DBS by itself. DBS with great weapon fighting style (FS) is better than 2 weapon with FS. The dual wielder feat compared to the revenant blade feat makes them nearly equal. But DBS with FS and feat can make 2 attack for an average damage of 6+Mod, 2 weapon with FS and feat can make 2 attacks for 4.5+Mod. The fact that the feat is limited by race is the only reason to not use DBS for every non-heavy weapon, ranged, or reach build. It competes with other weapons fine.

While it's true that compared to scimitar DBS has an edge, it's also true that no one's really going to use the scimitar if they're dual wielding due to the Dual Wielder feat, as they'd likely choose longsword instead. Add to that the Two-Weapon Fighting Style and you get 2d8 + str + str. That can be compared to DBS's 3d4 + str+1 + str+1 and you still get 2 more damage out of the longswords since DBS can only reroll with GWF rather than getting a straight damage buff, and this is assuming you're the correct race - otherwise you don't get those +1s to str.

In the end, dual wielding is better period. The benefit of using greatsword compared to dual wielding is the safety if a single attack roll, but DBS doesn't get that safety.

Quote from Rezilia >>

While it's true that compared to scimitar DBS has an edge, it's also true that no one's really going to use the scimitar if they're dual wielding due to the Dual Wielder feat, as they'd likely choose longsword instead. Add to that the Two-Weapon Fighting Style and you get 2d8 + str + str. That can be compared to DBS's 3d4 + str+1 + str+1 and you still get 2 more damage out of the longswords since DBS can only reroll with GWF rather than getting a straight damage buff, and this is assuming you're the correct race - otherwise you don't get those +1s to str.

In the end, dual wielding is better period. The benefit of using greatsword compared to dual wielding is the safety if a single attack roll, but DBS doesn't get that safety.

 Why is a single attack roll “safer” than two attack rolls? It just means if you roll bad on one roll you don’t automatically lose 100% of your damage for that round. You won’t do full damage as often but you won’t do 0 damage as often, so it balances out in the end. 

Quote from Rezilia >>

While it's true that compared to scimitar DBS has an edge, it's also true that no one's really going to use the scimitar if they're dual wielding due to the Dual Wielder feat, as they'd likely choose longsword instead. Add to that the Two-Weapon Fighting Style and you get 2d8 + str + str. That can be compared to DBS's 3d4 + str+1 + str+1 and you still get 2 more damage out of the longswords since DBS can only reroll with GWF rather than getting a straight damage buff, and this is assuming you're the correct race - otherwise you don't get those +1s to str.

In the end, dual wielding is better period. The benefit of using greatsword compared to dual wielding is the safety if a single attack roll, but DBS doesn't get that safety.

 I'm not sure what is going on with your equations (like why DBS has a +1 per attack).

2 longswords with FS and dual wielder has the same average damage 9 (2d8)+STR×2 as double bladed scimitar with just great weapon fighting style 9 (3d4 weighted for rerolls)+STR×2. The argument that DBS only gets to reroll instead of a straight damage buff is an argument against 2 weapons because 2 weapons needed that damage buff in order to catch up to DBS, reroll damage is something extra DBS has. It is equal with less investment. And if you have the feat, you get a +1 to your damaging ability, the same AC bonus, and an additional weighted +3 damage, potentially an extra +2 damage from ability.  DBS always out performs 2 weapons period. 

I don't know what your "safety of a single attack roll" argument is. More attacks are always better, that is why true strike is bad.

Greatsword gives you up to 12 damage on a single attack roll, while DBS only gives up to 8 on a single attack roll and an extra up to 4 on a second attack roll. So safety of a single attack roll refers to GS's 12 damage on just one roll. I've heard arguments that the price of this is GS's Heavy, but Heavy is a beneficial property because of GWM, which DBS can't get.

DBS gets an extra +1 with Revenant Blade because of the extra +1 str/dex it gives. But if you don't have RB, you don't get that, and RB is racial.

I'm not sure where you're getting that average damage number from. 2d8 is 2-16 damage. 3d4 is 3-12 damage. Dual longsword does far more damage on average. Even with RB, you can get maybe 5-14, not 2-16. That's close, but it only works with RB. Without RB, DBS can't contend.

Without feats, DBS is a two-handed weapon that deals 2-8 and 1-4 damage, separate attack rolls. Greatsword deals a straight 2-12 on just one. Dual scimitar deals 1-6 and 1-6 on separate attack rolls.

Without feats, GS outdoes DBS period. The only time someone would use DBS instead of GS is if they're Small. But DBS does not have the best damage, with or without feats. Without feats, it's beaten by GS every time. With feats, it's beaten by dual longsword every time.

You're right that I'm arguing against the best weapon and feat combos. But then again, dual wielding longswords means that, if necessary, you can switch to a shield, or go into two-handed with longsword. RB is just to contend - greatsword can already contend, plus you get GWM. DBS can only do one thing, it can't do that one thing well without RB, and it costs 100 gp.

Maybe if DBS was made versatile, or given something to make it more useful, that would be fine. But as it stands, without RB, you have a ~25% chance of getting its 3-12, a 50% chance of getting either 2-8 or 1-4, and a 25% chance of getting nothing, compared to GS's 50% chance of 2-12, and dual longswords' chance of 25% 2-16, 50% 1-8, and 25% nothing. DBS still loses, both damage-wise and statistically.

Quote from Rezilia >>

Without feats, DBS is a two-handed weapon that deals 2-8 and 1-4 damage, separate attack rolls. Greatsword deals a straight 2-12 on just one. Dual scimitar deals 1-6 and 1-6 on separate attack rolls.

Without feats, GS outdoes DBS period. The only time someone would use DBS instead of GS is if they're Small. But DBS does not have the best damage, with or without feats. Without feats, it's beaten by GS every time. With feats, it's beaten by dual longsword every time.

You're right that I'm arguing against the best weapon and feat combos. But then again, dual wielding longswords means that, if necessary, you can switch to a shield, or go into two-handed with longsword. RB is just to contend - greatsword can already contend, plus you get GWM. DBS can only do one thing, it can't do that one thing well without RB, and it costs 100 gp.

Maybe if DBS was made versatile, or given something to make it more useful, that would be fine. But as it stands, without RB, you have a ~25% chance of getting its 3-12, a 50% chance of getting either 2-8 or 1-4, and a 25% chance of getting nothing, compared to GS's 50% chance of 2-12, and dual longswords' chance of 25% 2-16, 50% 1-8, and 25% nothing. DBS still loses, both damage-wise and statistically.

DBS is actually particularly effective on paladins (smite), barbarians (rage damage), rangers (hunters mark), and anyone with +x weapons

The bonus action attack is an extra chance to smite / crit smite / deal +x damage

Anything that keys off more attacks ends up having net gains with DBS

Quote from Moscato >>

 Anything that keys off more attacks ends up having net gains with DBS

 
And yet, dual wielding fits that argument, and dual wielding longswords not only deals more damage but allows for more options in combat.

One benefit of the DBS vs the dual longswords is that allows more effective TWF without needing a feat.

Quote from Rezilia >>

Without feats, DBS is a two-handed weapon that deals 2-8 and 1-4 damage, separate attack rolls. Greatsword deals a straight 2-12 on just one. Dual scimitar deals 1-6 and 1-6 on separate attack rolls.

Without feats, GS outdoes DBS period. The only time someone would use DBS instead of GS is if they're Small. But DBS does not have the best damage, with or without feats. Without feats, it's beaten by GS every time. With feats, it's beaten by dual longsword every time.

Your math is wrong if you think DBS is beaten.

Without feats or fighting styles, average damage of the greatsword is 7 + STR. Two scimitars is 7 + DEX/STR. DBS is 7.5 + 2 * STR. DBS is the clear winner there.

With two longswords, average damage for dual wielding goes up to 9 + 2 * STR. The Great Weapon Fighting style bumps DBS’s average damage up to 9 + 2 * STR as well, so while it’s no longer better, it’s also not any worse. A greatsword with the same fighting style is only 8.33 * STR.

DxJxC has already told you this though.

Again, where are you getting these averages? You can clearly find that the chance of getting the full 12 on DBS is lower than getting the full 12 on GS. I already showed you the percentages.

And no, DBS and 2LS do not have the same average. 2LS deals 2-16 + STR*2 damage. DBS, without RB, deals only 3-12 + STR*2 damage. If you miss one LS, you're guaranteed 1-8 + STR. If you miss once on DBS, you have a chance of 2-8+STR OR 1-4+STR.

So again, where are you getting these averages from?

And DBS still needs the RB feat to contend, so yes it does need a feat, Houligan.

If you are interested in a build that uses dbs effectively look up the YouTube video “The Double Bladed Scimitar for Eberron” by treantmonk

he maths out why it can be a very effective damage option for rogues, better than straight two weapon fighting, or rapier and booming blade

i would link the video but I’m not sure about the forum rules for linking to other websites