Hi folks! I'm wondering about one effect of True Polymorph spell that say you can transform an creature into an object:
Creature into Object. If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form, as long as the object's size is no larger than the creature's size. The creature’s statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form.
Object. For the Purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects.
So, by RAW can a wizard turn a cow into a gold cow statue? Can they transform someone into a diamond? How big? How Valuable? Since you can keep up your concentration for an entire hour it become material that you can harvest?
Once players obtain 9th level spells, gold is pretty irrelevant. A casting of Wish can simply manifest 25,000 gold per use. In theory, you could turn a cow into a giant diamond and try to sell it, but if you do, the DM may say that the spell ends as soon as it is broken down and refined. Or, it's very likely that no one could afford to buy it. Or, it causes a flooding of the market and diamonds lose their value entirely.
The game isn't really designed for balance at these levels, so it's ultimately up to the DM.
So, by RAW can a wizard turn a cow into a gold cow statue? Can they transform someone into a diamond? How big? How Valuable? Since you can keep up your concentration for an entire hour it become material that you can harvest?
If you reduce the object to 0 hp the spell ends, so you can't break it up or anything.
Ok, but can the caster use it to create costly material components? Like, justa grab a random stone and transform it into a 5k diamond to Gate spell for exemple? Or take a pinch of sand and turn into ruby dust for Simulacrum spell?
Recently my players and i start a discussion about it and we didn't found anything concrete about this :(
A casting of Wish can simply manifest 25,000 gold per use.
And you take the risk of 33% hahaha... The point is, material... costly ones included are very rare. So yes, the caster is suffering. One of the campaing objectives is to start lvl 20 from scratch, naked and without memories and challenge the players to become resourceful using team work.
Ok, but can the caster use it to create costly material components? Like, justa grab a random stone and transform it into a 5k diamond to Gate spell for exemple? Or take a pinch of sand and turn into ruby dust for Simulacrum spell?
Recently my players and i start a discussion about it and we didn't found anything concrete about this :(
Object to object is not one of the spell's options. Even the Master Transmuter feature of the Transmutation wizard cannot turn a given object onto an object of higher value. Permanent, simple "get rich quick" alchemy is actually pretty well locked down outside of Wish.
If you do want free spell components, Creation Bard works. By level 14 they can create items with no limit to the gp value. They disappear after a few hours, but don't seem to have any clauses that prevent them from being consumed as spell components.
However, if I were doing a campaign like the one you describe I'd just waive the cost of material components.
If you do want free spell components, Creation Bard works. By level 14 they can create items with no limit to the gp value. They disappear after a few hours, but don't seem to have any clauses that prevent them from being consumed as spell components.
The main problem is that no-one is going to pay 5,000 gp for a gem that's going to vanish after a few hours, and thus arguably created items do not have any value, even if they're exact copies of items that do have value (I say 'arguably' because D&D is not an economy simulator and what it means for an item to be worth X gp is undefined).
They'll pay for the item if they don't know that it will disappear an hour or so after the vendor has taken their money and scarpered.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
We're into Schroedinger's definitions, now. Is an object's value defined by what one can obtain for it, or not? If so, then you're saying the value is relative and it's worth what you get for it. That it's fraudulent (and, I'll add, immoral) is by the by - if you're defining value by how much you can get for it, then you're defining value as how much you can get for it. Of course, you also run into the problem of what actually counts as its value. If it's not defined by that, then you're saying is that it possesses an innate value, and that someone wouldn't buy it is beside the point.
Of course, I'd agree with you that such a ruby would be worthless, or only worth however much one would pay to rent it. However, from a game point of view, we have to tie down what value actually means, and an object is assigned an innate value as part of the mechanics.
Reality is somewhere between the two, I think, but that's off-topic for a D&D forum.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
We're into Schroedinger's definitions, now. Is an object's value defined by what one can obtain for it, or not?
An object's value is defined by what you can obtain for it in a fair exchange (which means, among other things, that the object is in fact what you say it is).
If you do want free spell components, Creation Bard works. By level 14 they can create items with no limit to the gp value. They disappear after a few hours, but don't seem to have any clauses that prevent them from being consumed as spell components.
The main problem is that no-one is going to pay 5,000 gp for a gem that's going to vanish after a few hours, and thus arguably created items do not have any value, even if they're exact copies of items that do have value (I say 'arguably' because D&D is not an economy simulator and what it means for an item to be worth X gp is undefined).
It has to be an abstraction for a specific level of size/quality.
Once you get into "that's not worth x gp, because nobody would pay it", you're in the realm of Economy Simulator, and what gems one needs to cast a spell can vary from region to region.
Or, more amusingly, if the evil overlord can crash the diamond market, he can prevent the PCs from raising their dead, because its impossible to find a 500 gp diamond.
(That said, I'd still rule that a temporarily-extant item doesn't work for a spell component. Items without sufficient reality cannot sufficiently anchor the magic to the material realm.)
Just for the amusement factor, one of the big "exploits" of 3.5e was the 4th level spell Wall of Salt, which would permanently conjure 3000lbs of salt at 20th level. Salt has the same weight value as silver, so each casting could be sold at market value for ~15,000 gold. Fortunately, salt is readily consumable, so even if one did flood the market, there would be enough consumption to compensate, given a large enough distribution network.
Having a player recently ask me about this, I would use the DMG Guide for Treasure Creation and look at the CR of the Creature being turned into an Object against the chart for Treasure Hoards and the gemstone values given there.
Max then would be a CR 17+ Creature becoming a 5,000 gp gemstone per the Treasure Hoard CR 17+ chart.
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Long time player and DM since 1992. I have played and run various, numerous games, many of them Table Top over the years.
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Hi folks! I'm wondering about one effect of True Polymorph spell that say you can transform an creature into an object:
Creature into Object. If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form, as long as the object's size is no larger than the creature's size. The creature’s statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form.
Object. For the Purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects.
So, by RAW can a wizard turn a cow into a gold cow statue? Can they transform someone into a diamond? How big? How Valuable? Since you can keep up your concentration for an entire hour it become material that you can harvest?
Once players obtain 9th level spells, gold is pretty irrelevant. A casting of Wish can simply manifest 25,000 gold per use. In theory, you could turn a cow into a giant diamond and try to sell it, but if you do, the DM may say that the spell ends as soon as it is broken down and refined. Or, it's very likely that no one could afford to buy it. Or, it causes a flooding of the market and diamonds lose their value entirely.
The game isn't really designed for balance at these levels, so it's ultimately up to the DM.
If you reduce the object to 0 hp the spell ends, so you can't break it up or anything.
Ok, but can the caster use it to create costly material components? Like, justa grab a random stone and transform it into a 5k diamond to Gate spell for exemple? Or take a pinch of sand and turn into ruby dust for Simulacrum spell?
Recently my players and i start a discussion about it and we didn't found anything concrete about this :(
And you take the risk of 33% hahaha... The point is, material... costly ones included are very rare. So yes, the caster is suffering. One of the campaing objectives is to start lvl 20 from scratch, naked and without memories and challenge the players to become resourceful using team work.
Object to object is not one of the spell's options. Even the Master Transmuter feature of the Transmutation wizard cannot turn a given object onto an object of higher value. Permanent, simple "get rich quick" alchemy is actually pretty well locked down outside of Wish.
If you do want free spell components, Creation Bard works. By level 14 they can create items with no limit to the gp value. They disappear after a few hours, but don't seem to have any clauses that prevent them from being consumed as spell components.
However, if I were doing a campaign like the one you describe I'd just waive the cost of material components.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The main problem is that no-one is going to pay 5,000 gp for a gem that's going to vanish after a few hours, and thus arguably created items do not have any value, even if they're exact copies of items that do have value (I say 'arguably' because D&D is not an economy simulator and what it means for an item to be worth X gp is undefined).
They'll pay for the item if they don't know that it will disappear an hour or so after the vendor has taken their money and scarpered.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The ability to use something for fraud does not grant it specific value.
We're into Schroedinger's definitions, now. Is an object's value defined by what one can obtain for it, or not? If so, then you're saying the value is relative and it's worth what you get for it. That it's fraudulent (and, I'll add, immoral) is by the by - if you're defining value by how much you can get for it, then you're defining value as how much you can get for it. Of course, you also run into the problem of what actually counts as its value. If it's not defined by that, then you're saying is that it possesses an innate value, and that someone wouldn't buy it is beside the point.
Of course, I'd agree with you that such a ruby would be worthless, or only worth however much one would pay to rent it. However, from a game point of view, we have to tie down what value actually means, and an object is assigned an innate value as part of the mechanics.
Reality is somewhere between the two, I think, but that's off-topic for a D&D forum.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
An object's value is defined by what you can obtain for it in a fair exchange (which means, among other things, that the object is in fact what you say it is).
It has to be an abstraction for a specific level of size/quality.
Once you get into "that's not worth x gp, because nobody would pay it", you're in the realm of Economy Simulator, and what gems one needs to cast a spell can vary from region to region.
Or, more amusingly, if the evil overlord can crash the diamond market, he can prevent the PCs from raising their dead, because its impossible to find a 500 gp diamond.
(That said, I'd still rule that a temporarily-extant item doesn't work for a spell component. Items without sufficient reality cannot sufficiently anchor the magic to the material realm.)
Just for the amusement factor, one of the big "exploits" of 3.5e was the 4th level spell Wall of Salt, which would permanently conjure 3000lbs of salt at 20th level. Salt has the same weight value as silver, so each casting could be sold at market value for ~15,000 gold. Fortunately, salt is readily consumable, so even if one did flood the market, there would be enough consumption to compensate, given a large enough distribution network.
Having a player recently ask me about this, I would use the DMG Guide for Treasure Creation and look at the CR of the Creature being turned into an Object against the chart for Treasure Hoards and the gemstone values given there.
Max then would be a CR 17+ Creature becoming a 5,000 gp gemstone per the Treasure Hoard CR 17+ chart.
Long time player and DM since 1992. I have played and run various, numerous games, many of them Table Top over the years.