So as a long time lover of all things sorcerer I have been thinking of a way I could add spells known to the sorcerer without breaking the class. Below is what I came up with please let me know what everyone thinks.
Title: TBD
When the sorcerer is effected by or targeted by a spell cast by a hostile creature and succeeds on the save with a natural 20 or exceeds the save DC by 5 or more, he can perform a counterspell check. If the spell is on the sorcerer spell list he gains advantage on the roll. If he is successful he can learn the spell. This spell becomes a sorcerer spell for the character. This spell does not count towards his spells known but he can not learn spells this way greater than his charisma modifier. If the sorcerer has reached this limit he may still use this ability but must loose a spell learned from this feature in place of the new spell.
In the case where a spell does not call for a save the DM will create an appropriate saving throw for the spell along with a DC. The sorcerer can use this ability to learn spells on other classes lists. In most games given the difficulty of succeeding on both save and check my estimation you would be hard pressed to learn more than 2 or 3 spells.
What I find particularly interesting is that you may actually see your players using spells they would never normally learn fostering creative play.
In addition to the above feature I am toying with the idea of allowing my players to apply metamagic to another spell caster's spells not sure what to use for action economy. My first thought is to have the ability use your reaction and you lose your bonus action on your next turn.
I think it depends on the level you want to introduce the ability at but a natural 20 mean a 5% chance of actually making use of the ability (exceeding the Dc by 5+ may make it a slightly higher percentage) and limiting it to a number of spells equal to Cha mod means a max of 5 spells normally, unless you have a Cha of 22+.
It might be easier just to put in an ability like the Rogue/Arcane Tricksters Spell Thief such as:
*********
Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reactionto force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier.
The DC equals your spell save DC.
On a successful save you are affected by the spell as normal.
On a failed save you are affected by the spell as normal but you steal the knowledge of the spell and add it to the list of spells you know as long as the spell is a) at least 1st level and b) of a level you can cast (it doesn't need to be a Sorcerer spell). Knowledge of spells obtained this way do not count against the number of spells you know but once you use this feature, whether you succeed or fail, you can't use this ability again until you finish a long rest.
*********
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I would make it part of the sorcerer spellcasting ability making it available starting at level 1. It also occurs if you exceed the saving throw DC by 5 or more. It is a powerful ability so it needs to be something that does not occur frequently.
I think this is a little too powerful... it's an even better version of the level 17 Arcane Trickster ability, Spell Thief. That's the endcap, best feature of the subclass meant as a reward for players who stick with it and get all the way to level 17. I feel like it would step on their toes a bit if all Sorcerers, regardless of subclass, got access to an even better, more versatile version of the same ability all the way back at level 1.
That's not to say that I think this is a bad idea. I think it would make sense for a subclass of Sorcerer to have an ability like this and much earlier than an Arcane Trickster, since it's a dedicated spellcaster class where it makes sense for them to have more ways to manipulate and use magic abilities. The fact that it doesn't negate the spell cast in order to take advantage of this ability compared to Spell Thief helps. But it's just too good and versatile to give to all Sorcerers at level 1.
Whenever you finish a long rest, you can either replace one spell you learned from this Spell casting feature with another spell from the sorcerer spell list or replace one spell you know with a spell you have been targeted/affected by since your last long rest, this spell can be form any list as long as it has targeted or affected you. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace.
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* Need a character idea? Search for "Rob76's Unused" in the Story and Lore section.
That is way too powerful. I like the idea of keeping it random to embrace the chaotic nature of sorcery. I am a fan of the new spell versatility feature to swap spells per long rest though.
I think this is a little too powerful... it's an even better version of the level 17 Arcane Trickster ability, Spell Thief. That's the endcap, best feature of the subclass meant as a reward for players who stick with it and get all the way to level 17. I feel like it would step on their toes a bit if all Sorcerers, regardless of subclass, got access to an even better, more versatile version of the same ability all the way back at level 1.
That's not to say that I think this is a bad idea. I think it would make sense for a subclass of Sorcerer to have an ability like this and much earlier than an Arcane Trickster, since it's a dedicated spellcaster class where it makes sense for them to have more ways to manipulate and use magic abilities. The fact that it doesn't negate the spell cast in order to take advantage of this ability compared to Spell Thief helps. But it's just too good and versatile to give to all Sorcerers at level 1.
I generally do believe that enhancements to a class shouldn't step on another class. However, the spell thief ability is nearly unusable so in this case I think its worth considering. Reason being your spell save dc as an arcane trickster is going to be relatively low in most cases. In addition as a 1/3 caster that gets this ability at 17th lvl the spells which will being aimed at you will most likely be higher than 4th making the ability worthless to you. But that is a topic for another day.
I agree it is a powerful ability however is it powerful enough for someone to play the sorcerer over other full spellcasting classes? That is does it make the sorcerer a top tier casting class? I am not sure if it does but I will leave it open from the rest of the community to give their opinions. As for making it a signature feature of a subclass, I think that would be a mistake as the issue of spells known is a problem in all of the subclasses. I also am of the mindset that giving the sorcerer additional spells known should be something that is earned and not merely given out as part of leveling. I also don't think they should be given anymore than 5 extra spells known over a 20 level career.
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So as a long time lover of all things sorcerer I have been thinking of a way I could add spells known to the sorcerer without breaking the class. Below is what I came up with please let me know what everyone thinks.
Title: TBD
When the sorcerer is effected by or targeted by a spell cast by a hostile creature and succeeds on the save with a natural 20 or exceeds the save DC by 5 or more, he can perform a counterspell check. If the spell is on the sorcerer spell list he gains advantage on the roll. If he is successful he can learn the spell. This spell becomes a sorcerer spell for the character. This spell does not count towards his spells known but he can not learn spells this way greater than his charisma modifier. If the sorcerer has reached this limit he may still use this ability but must loose a spell learned from this feature in place of the new spell.
In the case where a spell does not call for a save the DM will create an appropriate saving throw for the spell along with a DC. The sorcerer can use this ability to learn spells on other classes lists. In most games given the difficulty of succeeding on both save and check my estimation you would be hard pressed to learn more than 2 or 3 spells.
What I find particularly interesting is that you may actually see your players using spells they would never normally learn fostering creative play.
In addition to the above feature I am toying with the idea of allowing my players to apply metamagic to another spell caster's spells not sure what to use for action economy. My first thought is to have the ability use your reaction and you lose your bonus action on your next turn.
your thoughts?
I think it depends on the level you want to introduce the ability at but a natural 20 mean a 5% chance of actually making use of the ability (exceeding the Dc by 5+ may make it a slightly higher percentage) and limiting it to a number of spells equal to Cha mod means a max of 5 spells normally, unless you have a Cha of 22+.
It might be easier just to put in an ability like the Rogue/Arcane Tricksters Spell Thief such as:
*********
Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier.
The DC equals your spell save DC.
On a successful save you are affected by the spell as normal.
On a failed save you are affected by the spell as normal but you steal the knowledge of the spell and add it to the list of spells you know as long as the spell is a) at least 1st level and b) of a level you can cast (it doesn't need to be a Sorcerer spell). Knowledge of spells obtained this way do not count against the number of spells you know but once you use this feature, whether you succeed or fail, you can't use this ability again until you finish a long rest.
*********
I would make it part of the sorcerer spellcasting ability making it available starting at level 1. It also occurs if you exceed the saving throw DC by 5 or more. It is a powerful ability so it needs to be something that does not occur frequently.
I think this is a little too powerful... it's an even better version of the level 17 Arcane Trickster ability, Spell Thief. That's the endcap, best feature of the subclass meant as a reward for players who stick with it and get all the way to level 17. I feel like it would step on their toes a bit if all Sorcerers, regardless of subclass, got access to an even better, more versatile version of the same ability all the way back at level 1.
That's not to say that I think this is a bad idea. I think it would make sense for a subclass of Sorcerer to have an ability like this and much earlier than an Arcane Trickster, since it's a dedicated spellcaster class where it makes sense for them to have more ways to manipulate and use magic abilities. The fact that it doesn't negate the spell cast in order to take advantage of this ability compared to Spell Thief helps. But it's just too good and versatile to give to all Sorcerers at level 1.
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Another alternative is to expand on the recent Unearthed Arcana
Spell Versatility
1st-level sorcerer feature (enhances Spell casting)
Whenever you finish a long rest, you can either replace one spell you learned from this Spell casting feature with another spell from the sorcerer spell list or replace one spell you know with a spell you have been targeted/affected by since your last long rest, this spell can be form any list as long as it has targeted or affected you. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace.
Per one of Mike Mearls' Happy Fun Hours, just give them two extra spells known at level 1 and call it a day.
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That is way too powerful. I like the idea of keeping it random to embrace the chaotic nature of sorcery. I am a fan of the new spell versatility feature to swap spells per long rest though.
I generally do believe that enhancements to a class shouldn't step on another class. However, the spell thief ability is nearly unusable so in this case I think its worth considering. Reason being your spell save dc as an arcane trickster is going to be relatively low in most cases. In addition as a 1/3 caster that gets this ability at 17th lvl the spells which will being aimed at you will most likely be higher than 4th making the ability worthless to you. But that is a topic for another day.
I agree it is a powerful ability however is it powerful enough for someone to play the sorcerer over other full spellcasting classes? That is does it make the sorcerer a top tier casting class? I am not sure if it does but I will leave it open from the rest of the community to give their opinions. As for making it a signature feature of a subclass, I think that would be a mistake as the issue of spells known is a problem in all of the subclasses. I also am of the mindset that giving the sorcerer additional spells known should be something that is earned and not merely given out as part of leveling. I also don't think they should be given anymore than 5 extra spells known over a 20 level career.