Additional Daily Question: What class would you like to see added to D&D more than any other?
This was prompted by Paizo’s announcement of their two new classes for Pathfinder: the Animist and the Exemplar!
I would love to see some kind of Shaman class.
Essentially it would have healing abilities, similar to a Cleric (borrowing from some of the Cleric spells) and a lot of the animal spells (borrowing from the Druid). It would have a focus on speaking with the dead (spirits and such), speaking to animal spirits, etc. Some kind of Foresight type spells as well to roll bones on the ground and potentially see what's coming. I'd even be fine if it was some kind of sub-class of the Cleric (who I see it more closely related to than Druids). Just at certain levels, like "At Level 3 you gain the ability to speak to animals equal to the amount of your Wisdom modifier" or whatever.
A lot of the stuff I enjoyed from the 2nd Edition - such as the Cavalier and what not, have all been imported into 5e.
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
Wood elf Ranger, Quarion Meliamne (hence the username). 5th edition, methinks somewhere around 2016. I was hooked by the first session. He reached level 3, became a Beast Master by taming a snake with a steak, and then my friend moved to Texas (as happens eerily often to my friends) and Quarion was lost to the sands of time. Alas.
I was also a 5e player first (though I have since branched out to other rpgs and even 3e (not 3.5), 4e, and 1e and 2e clones. My first character was… Amnon Balderk, a tiefling wild magic sorcerer who had found his home among dwarves. That campaign made it to level 7, I think? I have the original character sheet still (technically the second or third rewritten copy because others were messy). It ended because we started in 2019… and Covid came in during 2020 and blew up the world even more than the BBEG could. We played some short games online while we waited for the whole thing to blow over, and then it didn’t. Finally, my GM friend moved to Seoul and we lost contact.
Quar1on and I are eerily similar in our origin stories… I do believe that there is some connection here…
Hmm... maybe we're the same person from different dimensions! Quick, what do you call the most popular cola beverage?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Additional Daily Question: What class would you like to see added to D&D more than any other?
This was prompted by Paizo’s announcement of their two new classes for Pathfinder: the Animist and the Exemplar!
I would love to see some kind of Shaman class.
Essentially it would have healing abilities, similar to a Cleric (borrowing from some of the Cleric spells) and a lot of the animal spells (borrowing from the Druid). It would have a focus on speaking with the dead (spirits and such), speaking to animal spirits, etc. Some kind of Foresight type spells as well to roll bones on the ground and potentially see what's coming. I'd even be fine if it was some kind of sub-class of the Cleric (who I see it more closely related to than Druids). Just at certain levels, like "At Level 3 you gain the ability to speak to animals equal to the amount of your Wisdom modifier" or whatever.
A lot of the stuff I enjoyed from the 2nd Edition - such as the Cavalier and what not, have all been imported into 5e.
oddly enough, that is what I turned my Druids into. I have some professional ethics challenges around using the term Shaman, so I wasn’t able to name the class that, it that’s what it is. I posted about how I got there a while back.
shockingly easy to do in the current schema overall since all the core special abilities already exist among different existing subclasses. Barbarian and Bard, I think it is, for subclasses to look at for creating one.
which brings me to a peculiar factoid, lol.
Bards are Shamans. This is not a popular thinking, but the primary tasks of the Shaman (divination, animism based communication, spirit handling, history repository, bearer of knowledge and news, entertainer and educator) are all very much the role of the Shaman, and in terms of social archeology, that is the cultural role they occupy both I. Reality and even I. The game to a certain extent.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Bards are Shamans. This is not a popular thinking, but the primary tasks of the Shaman (divination, animism based communication, spirit handling, history repository, bearer of knowledge and news, entertainer and educator) are all very much the role of the Shaman, and in terms of social archeology, that is the cultural role they occupy both I. Reality and even I. The game to a certain extent.
From my understanding - Shamans weren't technically story tellers. They were religious figures who communed with the spirit world. Which is why I think Cleric is close to where I'd shove a Shaman.
(Which also probably mentions the reason you don't like calling them Shamans - I am guessing based off the person's finding that the term is offensive? And enforces savage Indians? Which is odd - it's the total opposite when I think of Shamans... lol)
There are many variations of shamanism throughout the world, but several common beliefs are shared by all forms of shamanism. Common beliefs identified by Eliade (1972) are the following:
Spirits exist and they play important roles both in individual lives and in human society
The shaman can communicate with the spirit world
Spirits can be benevolent or malevolent
The shaman can treat sickness caused by malevolent spirits
The shaman can employ trances inducing techniques to incite visionary ecstasy and go on vision quests
The shaman's spirit can leave the body to enter the supernatural world to search for answers
The shaman evokes animal images as spirit guides, omens, and message-bearers
The shaman can perform other varied forms of divination, scry, throw bones or runes, and sometimes foretell of future events
As Alice Kehoe notes, Eliade's conceptualization of shamans produces a universalist image of Indigenous cultures, which perpetuates notions of the dead (or dying) Indian as well as the noble savage.
Shamanism is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces or spirits which affect the lives of the living. Although the causes of disease lie in the spiritual realm, inspired by malicious spirits, both spiritual and physical methods are used to heal. Commonly, a shaman "enters the body" of the patient to confront the spiritual infirmity and heals by banishing the infectious spirit.
Many shamans have expert knowledge of medicinal plants native to their area, and an herbal treatment is often prescribed. In many places shamans learn directly from the plants, harnessing their effects and healing properties, after obtaining permission from the indwelling or patron spirits. In the Peruvian Amazon Basin, shamans and curanderos use medicine songs called icaros to evoke spirits. Before a spirit can be summoned it must teach the shaman its song. The use of totemic items such as rocks with special powers and an animating spirit is common.
Such practices are presumably very ancient. Plato wrote in his Phaedrus that the "first prophecies were the words of an oak", and that those who lived at that time found it rewarding enough to "listen to an oak or a stone, so long as it was telling the truth".
Belief in witchcraft and sorcery, known as brujerĂa in Latin America, exists in many societies. Other societies assert all shamans have the power to both cure and kill. Those with shamanic knowledge usually enjoy great power and prestige in the community, but they may also be regarded suspiciously or fearfully as potentially harmful to others.
By engaging in their work, a shaman is exposed to significant personal risk as shamanic plant materials can be toxic or fatal if misused. Spells are commonly used in an attempt to protect against these dangers, and the use of more dangerous plants is often very highly ritualized.
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
Wood elf Ranger, Quarion Meliamne (hence the username). 5th edition, methinks somewhere around 2016. I was hooked by the first session. He reached level 3, became a Beast Master by taming a snake with a steak, and then my friend moved to Texas (as happens eerily often to my friends) and Quarion was lost to the sands of time. Alas.
I was also a 5e player first (though I have since branched out to other rpgs and even 3e (not 3.5), 4e, and 1e and 2e clones. My first character was… Amnon Balderk, a tiefling wild magic sorcerer who had found his home among dwarves. That campaign made it to level 7, I think? I have the original character sheet still (technically the second or third rewritten copy because others were messy). It ended because we started in 2019… and Covid came in during 2020 and blew up the world even more than the BBEG could. We played some short games online while we waited for the whole thing to blow over, and then it didn’t. Finally, my GM friend moved to Seoul and we lost contact.
Quar1on and I are eerily similar in our origin stories… I do believe that there is some connection here…
Hmm... maybe we're the same person from different dimensions! Quick, what do you call the most popular cola beverage?
Bards are Shamans. This is not a popular thinking, but the primary tasks of the Shaman (divination, animism based communication, spirit handling, history repository, bearer of knowledge and news, entertainer and educator) are all very much the role of the Shaman, and in terms of social archeology, that is the cultural role they occupy both I. Reality and even I. The game to a certain extent.
From my understanding - Shamans weren't technically story tellers. They were religious figures who communed with the spirit world. Which is why I think Cleric is close to where I'd shove a Shaman.
(Which also probably mentions the reason you don't like calling them Shamans - I am guessing based off the person's finding that the term is offensive? And enforces savage Indians? Which is odd - it's the total opposite when I think of Shamans... lol)
There are many variations of shamanism throughout the world, but several common beliefs are shared by all forms of shamanism. Common beliefs identified by Eliade (1972) are the following:
Spirits exist and they play important roles both in individual lives and in human society
The shaman can communicate with the spirit world
Spirits can be benevolent or malevolent
The shaman can treat sickness caused by malevolent spirits
The shaman can employ trances inducing techniques to incite visionary ecstasy and go on vision quests
The shaman's spirit can leave the body to enter the supernatural world to search for answers
The shaman evokes animal images as spirit guides, omens, and message-bearers
The shaman can perform other varied forms of divination, scry, throw bones or runes, and sometimes foretell of future events
As Alice Kehoe notes, Eliade's conceptualization of shamans produces a universalist image of Indigenous cultures, which perpetuates notions of the dead (or dying) Indian as well as the noble savage.
Shamanism is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces or spirits which affect the lives of the living. Although the causes of disease lie in the spiritual realm, inspired by malicious spirits, both spiritual and physical methods are used to heal. Commonly, a shaman "enters the body" of the patient to confront the spiritual infirmity and heals by banishing the infectious spirit.
Many shamans have expert knowledge of medicinal plants native to their area, and an herbal treatment is often prescribed. In many places shamans learn directly from the plants, harnessing their effects and healing properties, after obtaining permission from the indwelling or patron spirits. In the Peruvian Amazon Basin, shamans and curanderos use medicine songs called icaros to evoke spirits. Before a spirit can be summoned it must teach the shaman its song. The use of totemic items such as rocks with special powers and an animating spirit is common.
Such practices are presumably very ancient. Plato wrote in his Phaedrus that the "first prophecies were the words of an oak", and that those who lived at that time found it rewarding enough to "listen to an oak or a stone, so long as it was telling the truth".
Belief in witchcraft and sorcery, known as brujerĂa in Latin America, exists in many societies. Other societies assert all shamans have the power to both cure and kill. Those with shamanic knowledge usually enjoy great power and prestige in the community, but they may also be regarded suspiciously or fearfully as potentially harmful to others.
By engaging in their work, a shaman is exposed to significant personal risk as shamanic plant materials can be toxic or fatal if misused. Spells are commonly used in an attempt to protect against these dangers, and the use of more dangerous plants is often very highly ritualized.
I think you would particularly enjoy the Animist class! It has the majority of the focal points you gave. I plan to *attempt* to bring over some of the unique Pathfinder classes to D&D when I can… I’ll send you the Animist when it’s done!
And for AEDorsay, while I’m certain she already has her own witch class: I am playing a “cunning folk inspired artificer style” witch in my current game, a class I designed myself. It needs tweaks, but it will be going on DMsGuild!
Bards are Shamans. This is not a popular thinking, but the primary tasks of the Shaman (divination, animism based communication, spirit handling, history repository, bearer of knowledge and news, entertainer and educator) are all very much the role of the Shaman, and in terms of social archeology, that is the cultural role they occupy both I. Reality and even I. The game to a certain extent.
From my understanding - Shamans weren't technically story tellers. They were religious figures who communed with the spirit world. Which is why I think Cleric is close to where I'd shove a Shaman.
While yes, typically a shaman’s primary role is to act as a mediator between the spirit world and our world on behalf of their people, they are often also tasked with keeping and sharing the knowledge they have gained through their interactions with the spirits too, as well as keeping their people’s oral histories alive too. Those lessons are often best shared through allegories and parables, and the telling of history is always a telling of someone’s (or somewhere’s) story. Even if they are not defined by their roles as storytellers like a bard is, the practice of storytelling still kinda comes with the job.
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
High elf beastmaster ranger with a pteranodon and a boomerang, 5th edition, somewhere around 2019 I think. We only got a few sessions in before the DM moved to New Zealand. I still have no idea why.
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
High elf beastmaster ranger with a pteranodon and a boomerang, 5th edition, somewhere around 2019 I think. We only got a few sessions in before the DM moved to New Zealand. I still have no idea why.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I have some professional ethics challenges around using the term Shaman, so I wasn’t able to name the class that, it that’s what it is.
Oh? Please educate me about that.
So, the term Shaman has a particular origin, in part, and as was noted in the wiki citing Elide, there is a tendency (especially among western educated pros) to erase distinctions and present the whole as a "lesser" form of religious belief because of a deep bias towards animist and similar belief systems in a world where 75% of the population (rough) is monotheistic and all of those are hostile to such practices.
An example itself being how D&D handles religious systems by presumption of a pantheistic model and encouraging it, lol.
So, around 1990 or so, one of the Ethics standards published was to reduce the use of "Shaman" not merely in favor of the localized form, but also to avoid the term in general, in much the same way that I can't use the term "*****", and need to focus on the particular nomadic group (and if I say Roma, I have to be very precise, since not all nomadic groups are Roma).
Since on occasion one of our guest player will be one of my colleagues at some time or other, I try to avoid using it there lest I get smacked by them (humorously, to be sure, as we layer humor to cover any sting of correction), regardless of it being "just a game" since we all know it is not such.
Summation: it is simply good form not to look down on other peoples belief systems, and sometimes our language and terms are loaded with that contempt that professionals have to watch for, even if layfolk do not.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
1979 - Gray elf fighter/mage - Goffanon Kanar - now an epic character (NPC) in my version of the FRs. Most of my characters from back then managed to survive and are around in my world. A couple have died from the FR timeline ( they entered FR in 1362DR and it’s now 1492 DR so several of the human characters have died of old age but the elves, dwarves, and half elves are all still around.
Favorite monsters- DRAGONS - of course it’s hard to fit them into low level campaigns so I use a lot of goblinoids and orcs there.
Bards are Shamans. This is not a popular thinking, but the primary tasks of the Shaman (divination, animism based communication, spirit handling, history repository, bearer of knowledge and news, entertainer and educator) are all very much the role of the Shaman, and in terms of social archeology, that is the cultural role they occupy both I. Reality and even I. The game to a certain extent.
From my understanding - Shamans weren't technically story tellers. They were religious figures who communed with the spirit world. Which is why I think Cleric is close to where I'd shove a Shaman.
(Which also probably mentions the reason you don't like calling them Shamans - I am guessing based off the person's finding that the term is offensive? And enforces savage Indians? Which is odd - it's the total opposite when I think of Shamans... lol)
There are many variations of shamanism throughout the world, but several common beliefs are shared by all forms of shamanism. Common beliefs identified by Eliade (1972) are the following:
Spirits exist and they play important roles both in individual lives and in human society
The shaman can communicate with the spirit world
Spirits can be benevolent or malevolent
The shaman can treat sickness caused by malevolent spirits
The shaman can employ trances inducing techniques to incite visionary ecstasy and go on vision quests
The shaman's spirit can leave the body to enter the supernatural world to search for answers
The shaman evokes animal images as spirit guides, omens, and message-bearers
The shaman can perform other varied forms of divination, scry, throw bones or runes, and sometimes foretell of future events
As Alice Kehoe notes, Eliade's conceptualization of shamans produces a universalist image of Indigenous cultures, which perpetuates notions of the dead (or dying) Indian as well as the noble savage.
Shamanism is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces or spirits which affect the lives of the living. Although the causes of disease lie in the spiritual realm, inspired by malicious spirits, both spiritual and physical methods are used to heal. Commonly, a shaman "enters the body" of the patient to confront the spiritual infirmity and heals by banishing the infectious spirit.
Many shamans have expert knowledge of medicinal plants native to their area, and an herbal treatment is often prescribed. In many places shamans learn directly from the plants, harnessing their effects and healing properties, after obtaining permission from the indwelling or patron spirits. In the Peruvian Amazon Basin, shamans and curanderos use medicine songs called icaros to evoke spirits. Before a spirit can be summoned it must teach the shaman its song. The use of totemic items such as rocks with special powers and an animating spirit is common.
Such practices are presumably very ancient. Plato wrote in his Phaedrus that the "first prophecies were the words of an oak", and that those who lived at that time found it rewarding enough to "listen to an oak or a stone, so long as it was telling the truth".
Belief in witchcraft and sorcery, known as brujerĂa in Latin America, exists in many societies. Other societies assert all shamans have the power to both cure and kill. Those with shamanic knowledge usually enjoy great power and prestige in the community, but they may also be regarded suspiciously or fearfully as potentially harmful to others.
By engaging in their work, a shaman is exposed to significant personal risk as shamanic plant materials can be toxic or fatal if misused. Spells are commonly used in an attempt to protect against these dangers, and the use of more dangerous plants is often very highly ritualized.
It depends on the cultural norms you are using.
For example, I am indigenous on one side of my heritage. Among my people, my nature and personality (sorry, I am chuckling because I recall some comments) had them give me to the care of a shaman of my tribe. This is a North American tribal group, and in western terms I was apprenticed. One of my jobs is to recall all the stories of making. That is, I am the receptacle of history and tribal tradition, and I am supposed to explain it to others if they come to me (and in particular, I am to do this with others who are not "on the res" and may be of mixed heritage in the white world).
THis is key, because the the role of having to explain all of that stuff only comes out in oral tradition for most peoples, and as a result the core concept is fundamentally that of a story teller in that they are telling the story of the world and the people and how things come to be, as well as how things happen and why they happen.
On a different side of my heritage, I carry a Yoruba influenced Malian basis and have the Nommo as some of my guides, and then on the third I have an unusual syncretic basis that has left me somewhat alone since the death of my paternal grandmother.
There, too, lies the storyteller aspect.
Now, it gets even more complex because I grew up surrounded by Dineh -- Apache and Navajo peoples, as well as assorted mesoamerican cultural blends (a very specific use and limit there -- you get past panama, and it fails until I was an adult). Primed for it already by my personal background and my playing D&D, I sorta sucked a lot of that in, and what is the main way that they explain the world to people?
Storytelling.
Prophecy among most animist peoples is also done by storytelling, and the way that spirits in roughly a third to half of them communicate is through stories -- so yeah, it is all storytelling.
Storytelling is not "making up fictions", it is passing along values, beliefs, ideals, history, and norms in the form of if-then and sequential structures that illustraate a point without bashing someone over the head with it.
Within the overall cultural basis that gives rise to Bards (and that's mixing four cultures, I note, with southern Nordic, Angle, Saxon, and Norman foundations that pull from northern and western Europe), the construct of a bard comes from much of the historic systems and beliefs ascribed to Druids and Druid-like similar priesthoods, where words are held as magical and inherently filled with power, where truth is positioned as a shaped concept by the use of those words, and a lot of it is why we use the words "spell" (the direct linkage between spelling as a way to construct words and as the act of casting a spell is real) and "cast" (to toss, to throw but also to speak, to write).
As with most other shamanistic bodies, the goal is to share the history, lore, values, and such of the peoples they move among. The movement aspect came long after the role was structured, and this is also where the division between "witch" and "cunning folk" arises (most notably at the start of the Christian Invasion) with the Bard being a *kind* of cunning folk, blended with the role of the Fool (a very specific position) from animistic festivals and celebrations, as a wandering person, who uses magic, err, music, and carries the word of heroes (people who represent distinct values and virtues) and goings on.
So, yes, Bards are Shamans, lol.
BUT!!!
To the point of another, YES!!
Clerics are shamans too. For the same reasons, lol.
Now, the reason that all of this is important is that it carries the weight of of how important this role is among all of society. They are teachers -- and look at how we treat Teachers today, divorced from the once potent power of religious benefice. Yet people still speak about Nuns with a lot of the same kind of ominous knowledge (and fear of rulers, apparently) because those who teach do still have that attachment.
It is such an important role that there are variants around it -- subclasses of the greater role: Cleric, Bard, Druid. All of them (as RAW) are all more or less subclasses of this larger idea, this focal point, and each takes a certain aspect of the larger whole and plays with that for the value of it in terms of forming an archetype suitable for our use within the game.
Wherein they still often have that role if they are given the role playing skill and freedom to do so.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
And for AEDorsay, while I’m certain she already has her own witch class: I am playing a “cunning folk inspired artificer style” witch in my current game, a class I designed myself. It needs tweaks, but it will be going on DMsGuild!
I am interested in it!
Yes, I do have my own, lol, but it is also twisted by the whole "needs to fit the Wyrlde" thing.
As proud as I am of my creations (and those creations I am partnered with in creating), they are very much really only useful on Wyrlde, because they are tied tot he lore of it and their place within that world, and the history and trendlines there are not the same as our world.
My biggest cheat is that some parts of our world directly line up with theirs -- but it is in a way that is very much like us looking back to the time of the pyramids being built. Foreign, and while some ideas survived the ages, they aren't always taken even a hundredth as seriously as they were back then.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
Wood elf Ranger, Quarion Meliamne (hence the username). 5th edition, methinks somewhere around 2016. I was hooked by the first session. He reached level 3, became a Beast Master by taming a snake with a steak, and then my friend moved to Texas (as happens eerily often to my friends) and Quarion was lost to the sands of time. Alas.
I was also a 5e player first (though I have since branched out to other rpgs and even 3e (not 3.5), 4e, and 1e and 2e clones. My first character was… Amnon Balderk, a tiefling wild magic sorcerer who had found his home among dwarves. That campaign made it to level 7, I think? I have the original character sheet still (technically the second or third rewritten copy because others were messy). It ended because we started in 2019… and Covid came in during 2020 and blew up the world even more than the BBEG could. We played some short games online while we waited for the whole thing to blow over, and then it didn’t. Finally, my GM friend moved to Seoul and we lost contact.
Quar1on and I are eerily similar in our origin stories… I do believe that there is some connection here…
Hmm... maybe we're the same person from different dimensions! Quick, what do you call the most popular cola beverage?
Errr… Coke? I don’t drink soda…
Answered the question twice and didn't even know it...
Soda
Pop
Sodapop
Coke
Pepsi
Are all answers that have an impact and reveal a regional background influence that is socialized at a very young age for the most part (though not perfectly, and not absolutely).
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
1979 - Gray elf fighter/mage - Goffanon Kanar - now an epic character (NPC) in my version of the FRs. Most of my characters from back then managed to survive and are around in my world. A couple have died from the FR timeline ( they entered FR in 1362DR and it’s now 1492 DR so several of the human characters have died of old age but the elves, dwarves, and half elves are all still around.
Favorite monsters- DRAGONS - of course it’s hard to fit them into low level campaigns so I use a lot of goblinoids and orcs there.
Welcome to anything but, Wi1dBi11!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I have some professional ethics challenges around using the term Shaman, so I wasn’t able to name the class that, it that’s what it is.
Oh? Please educate me about that.
So, the term Shaman has a particular origin, in part, and as was noted in the wiki citing Elide, there is a tendency (especially among western educated pros) to erase distinctions and present the whole as a "lesser" form of religious belief because of a deep bias towards animist and similar belief systems in a world where 75% of the population (rough) is monotheistic and all of those are hostile to such practices.
An example itself being how D&D handles religious systems by presumption of a pantheistic model and encouraging it, lol.
So, around 1990 or so, one of the Ethics standards published was to reduce the use of "Shaman" not merely in favor of the localized form, but also to avoid the term in general, in much the same way that I can't use the term "*****", and need to focus on the particular nomadic group (and if I say Roma, I have to be very precise, since not all nomadic groups are Roma).
Since on occasion one of our guest player will be one of my colleagues at some time or other, I try to avoid using it there lest I get smacked by them (humorously, to be sure, as we layer humor to cover any sting of correction), regardless of it being "just a game" since we all know it is not such.
Summation: it is simply good form not to look down on other peoples belief systems, and sometimes our language and terms are loaded with that contempt that professionals have to watch for, even if layfolk do not.
Ahh. Thank you. I never really perceived of the word “shaman” as a pejorative term since I personally don’t think of any religion as “lesser” than any other, merely different. Then again, I am also somewhat educated about various world religions as I studied them not only in college, but in my personal time as well. To my mind, the practice of interacting with the natural and spirit worlds is just as valid as any other form of worship or spiritualism, and in fact likely more practical then some other forms of faith as well. But we’ll not get too far into that here as religious discussions are frowned upon in these forums.
While I was aware that the term “shaman” has a particular origin, I thought it had evolved into more of a generalized term for all such practitioners similar to how the word “priest” has evolved in that same way. Since I A) don’t know all or even most of the localized titles for a person who fills that role in a culture, and B) would generally be speaking of all such practitioners as a whole instead of each in their specific context, what word would be more appropriate than “shaman” in that context?
Additional Daily Question: What class would you like to see added to D&D more than any other?
This was prompted by Paizo’s announcement of their two new classes for Pathfinder: the Animist and the Exemplar!
I would love to see some kind of Shaman class.
Essentially it would have healing abilities, similar to a Cleric (borrowing from some of the Cleric spells) and a lot of the animal spells (borrowing from the Druid). It would have a focus on speaking with the dead (spirits and such), speaking to animal spirits, etc. Some kind of Foresight type spells as well to roll bones on the ground and potentially see what's coming. I'd even be fine if it was some kind of sub-class of the Cleric (who I see it more closely related to than Druids). Just at certain levels, like "At Level 3 you gain the ability to speak to animals equal to the amount of your Wisdom modifier" or whatever.
A lot of the stuff I enjoyed from the 2nd Edition - such as the Cavalier and what not, have all been imported into 5e.
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Hmm... maybe we're the same person from different dimensions! Quick, what do you call the most popular cola beverage?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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Witch.
a good, cunning folk inspired, artificer style witch.
oddly enough, that is what I turned my Druids into. I have some professional ethics challenges around using the term Shaman, so I wasn’t able to name the class that, it that’s what it is. I posted about how I got there a while back.
shockingly easy to do in the current schema overall since all the core special abilities already exist among different existing subclasses. Barbarian and Bard, I think it is, for subclasses to look at for creating one.
which brings me to a peculiar factoid, lol.
Bards are Shamans. This is not a popular thinking, but the primary tasks of the Shaman (divination, animism based communication, spirit handling, history repository, bearer of knowledge and news, entertainer and educator) are all very much the role of the Shaman, and in terms of social archeology, that is the cultural role they occupy both I. Reality and even I. The game to a certain extent.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
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From my understanding - Shamans weren't technically story tellers. They were religious figures who communed with the spirit world. Which is why I think Cleric is close to where I'd shove a Shaman.
Google-lizing...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
Head down to the beliefs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#Beliefs
(Which also probably mentions the reason you don't like calling them Shamans - I am guessing based off the person's finding that the term is offensive? And enforces savage Indians? Which is odd - it's the total opposite when I think of Shamans... lol)
There are many variations of shamanism throughout the world, but several common beliefs are shared by all forms of shamanism. Common beliefs identified by Eliade (1972) are the following:
As Alice Kehoe notes, Eliade's conceptualization of shamans produces a universalist image of Indigenous cultures, which perpetuates notions of the dead (or dying) Indian as well as the noble savage.
Shamanism is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces or spirits which affect the lives of the living. Although the causes of disease lie in the spiritual realm, inspired by malicious spirits, both spiritual and physical methods are used to heal. Commonly, a shaman "enters the body" of the patient to confront the spiritual infirmity and heals by banishing the infectious spirit.
Many shamans have expert knowledge of medicinal plants native to their area, and an herbal treatment is often prescribed. In many places shamans learn directly from the plants, harnessing their effects and healing properties, after obtaining permission from the indwelling or patron spirits. In the Peruvian Amazon Basin, shamans and curanderos use medicine songs called icaros to evoke spirits. Before a spirit can be summoned it must teach the shaman its song. The use of totemic items such as rocks with special powers and an animating spirit is common.
Such practices are presumably very ancient. Plato wrote in his Phaedrus that the "first prophecies were the words of an oak", and that those who lived at that time found it rewarding enough to "listen to an oak or a stone, so long as it was telling the truth".
Belief in witchcraft and sorcery, known as brujerĂa in Latin America, exists in many societies. Other societies assert all shamans have the power to both cure and kill. Those with shamanic knowledge usually enjoy great power and prestige in the community, but they may also be regarded suspiciously or fearfully as potentially harmful to others.
By engaging in their work, a shaman is exposed to significant personal risk as shamanic plant materials can be toxic or fatal if misused. Spells are commonly used in an attempt to protect against these dangers, and the use of more dangerous plants is often very highly ritualized.
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Errr… Coke? I don’t drink soda…
I think you would particularly enjoy the Animist class! It has the majority of the focal points you gave. I plan to *attempt* to bring over some of the unique Pathfinder classes to D&D when I can… I’ll send you the Animist when it’s done!
And for AEDorsay, while I’m certain she already has her own witch class: I am playing a “cunning folk inspired artificer style” witch in my current game, a class I designed myself. It needs tweaks, but it will be going on DMsGuild!
Oh? Please educate me about that.
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While yes, typically a shaman’s primary role is to act as a mediator between the spirit world and our world on behalf of their people, they are often also tasked with keeping and sharing the knowledge they have gained through their interactions with the spirits too, as well as keeping their people’s oral histories alive too. Those lessons are often best shared through allegories and parables, and the telling of history is always a telling of someone’s (or somewhere’s) story. Even if they are not defined by their roles as storytellers like a bard is, the practice of storytelling still kinda comes with the job.
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High elf beastmaster ranger with a pteranodon and a boomerang, 5th edition, somewhere around 2019 I think. We only got a few sessions in before the DM moved to New Zealand. I still have no idea why.
It's like déjà vu all over again...
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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So, the term Shaman has a particular origin, in part, and as was noted in the wiki citing Elide, there is a tendency (especially among western educated pros) to erase distinctions and present the whole as a "lesser" form of religious belief because of a deep bias towards animist and similar belief systems in a world where 75% of the population (rough) is monotheistic and all of those are hostile to such practices.
An example itself being how D&D handles religious systems by presumption of a pantheistic model and encouraging it, lol.
So, around 1990 or so, one of the Ethics standards published was to reduce the use of "Shaman" not merely in favor of the localized form, but also to avoid the term in general, in much the same way that I can't use the term "*****", and need to focus on the particular nomadic group (and if I say Roma, I have to be very precise, since not all nomadic groups are Roma).
Since on occasion one of our guest player will be one of my colleagues at some time or other, I try to avoid using it there lest I get smacked by them (humorously, to be sure, as we layer humor to cover any sting of correction), regardless of it being "just a game" since we all know it is not such.
Summation: it is simply good form not to look down on other peoples belief systems, and sometimes our language and terms are loaded with that contempt that professionals have to watch for, even if layfolk do not.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?
1979 - Gray elf fighter/mage - Goffanon Kanar - now an epic character (NPC) in my version of the FRs. Most of my characters from back then managed to survive and are around in my world. A couple have died from the FR timeline ( they entered FR in 1362DR and it’s now 1492 DR so several of the human characters have died of old age but the elves, dwarves, and half elves are all still around.
Favorite monsters- DRAGONS - of course it’s hard to fit them into low level campaigns so I use a lot of goblinoids and orcs there.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It depends on the cultural norms you are using.
For example, I am indigenous on one side of my heritage. Among my people, my nature and personality (sorry, I am chuckling because I recall some comments) had them give me to the care of a shaman of my tribe. This is a North American tribal group, and in western terms I was apprenticed. One of my jobs is to recall all the stories of making. That is, I am the receptacle of history and tribal tradition, and I am supposed to explain it to others if they come to me (and in particular, I am to do this with others who are not "on the res" and may be of mixed heritage in the white world).
THis is key, because the the role of having to explain all of that stuff only comes out in oral tradition for most peoples, and as a result the core concept is fundamentally that of a story teller in that they are telling the story of the world and the people and how things come to be, as well as how things happen and why they happen.
On a different side of my heritage, I carry a Yoruba influenced Malian basis and have the Nommo as some of my guides, and then on the third I have an unusual syncretic basis that has left me somewhat alone since the death of my paternal grandmother.
There, too, lies the storyteller aspect.
Now, it gets even more complex because I grew up surrounded by Dineh -- Apache and Navajo peoples, as well as assorted mesoamerican cultural blends (a very specific use and limit there -- you get past panama, and it fails until I was an adult). Primed for it already by my personal background and my playing D&D, I sorta sucked a lot of that in, and what is the main way that they explain the world to people?
Storytelling.
Prophecy among most animist peoples is also done by storytelling, and the way that spirits in roughly a third to half of them communicate is through stories -- so yeah, it is all storytelling.
Storytelling is not "making up fictions", it is passing along values, beliefs, ideals, history, and norms in the form of if-then and sequential structures that illustraate a point without bashing someone over the head with it.
Within the overall cultural basis that gives rise to Bards (and that's mixing four cultures, I note, with southern Nordic, Angle, Saxon, and Norman foundations that pull from northern and western Europe), the construct of a bard comes from much of the historic systems and beliefs ascribed to Druids and Druid-like similar priesthoods, where words are held as magical and inherently filled with power, where truth is positioned as a shaped concept by the use of those words, and a lot of it is why we use the words "spell" (the direct linkage between spelling as a way to construct words and as the act of casting a spell is real) and "cast" (to toss, to throw but also to speak, to write).
As with most other shamanistic bodies, the goal is to share the history, lore, values, and such of the peoples they move among. The movement aspect came long after the role was structured, and this is also where the division between "witch" and "cunning folk" arises (most notably at the start of the Christian Invasion) with the Bard being a *kind* of cunning folk, blended with the role of the Fool (a very specific position) from animistic festivals and celebrations, as a wandering person, who uses magic, err, music, and carries the word of heroes (people who represent distinct values and virtues) and goings on.
So, yes, Bards are Shamans, lol.
BUT!!!
To the point of another, YES!!
Clerics are shamans too. For the same reasons, lol.
Now, the reason that all of this is important is that it carries the weight of of how important this role is among all of society. They are teachers -- and look at how we treat Teachers today, divorced from the once potent power of religious benefice. Yet people still speak about Nuns with a lot of the same kind of ominous knowledge (and fear of rulers, apparently) because those who teach do still have that attachment.
It is such an important role that there are variants around it -- subclasses of the greater role: Cleric, Bard, Druid. All of them (as RAW) are all more or less subclasses of this larger idea, this focal point, and each takes a certain aspect of the larger whole and plays with that for the value of it in terms of forming an archetype suitable for our use within the game.
Wherein they still often have that role if they are given the role playing skill and freedom to do so.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
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I am interested in it!
Yes, I do have my own, lol, but it is also twisted by the whole "needs to fit the Wyrlde" thing.
As proud as I am of my creations (and those creations I am partnered with in creating), they are very much really only useful on Wyrlde, because they are tied tot he lore of it and their place within that world, and the history and trendlines there are not the same as our world.
My biggest cheat is that some parts of our world directly line up with theirs -- but it is in a way that is very much like us looking back to the time of the pyramids being built. Foreign, and while some ideas survived the ages, they aren't always taken even a hundredth as seriously as they were back then.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Answered the question twice and didn't even know it...
Are all answers that have an impact and reveal a regional background influence that is socialized at a very young age for the most part (though not perfectly, and not absolutely).
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Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Welcome to anything but, Wi1dBi11!
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
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Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
There are a lot of classes I want to see in the game, but a Witch is probably the one I want most.
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HERE.Ahh. Thank you. I never really perceived of the word “shaman” as a pejorative term since I personally don’t think of any religion as “lesser” than any other, merely different. Then again, I am also somewhat educated about various world religions as I studied them not only in college, but in my personal time as well. To my mind, the practice of interacting with the natural and spirit worlds is just as valid as any other form of worship or spiritualism, and in fact likely more practical then some other forms of faith as well. But we’ll not get too far into that here as religious discussions are frowned upon in these forums.
While I was aware that the term “shaman” has a particular origin, I thought it had evolved into more of a generalized term for all such practitioners similar to how the word “priest” has evolved in that same way. Since I A) don’t know all or even most of the localized titles for a person who fills that role in a culture, and B) would generally be speaking of all such practitioners as a whole instead of each in their specific context, what word would be more appropriate than “shaman” in that context?
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