Quote from Quar1on >>

Maybe the real magic is the friends we made along the way...

 
That too.

I am having an urge to grab my makeup and spin, ending in a pose for the Power of Friendship!

Well, I made it about 20 minutes before the pedant side of me took control, but rather than derail a separate thread, she is going to go off here, lol...

"Vancian Magic".

Magic system derived from the structure of magic initially developed by Jack Vance and used only and solely in his Dying Earth novels (The Dying Earth (1950), The Eyes of the Overworld (1966), Cugel's Saga (1983), Rhialto the Marvellous (1984)), with the last two actually moving away from it slightly (muckrake gossip says in direct response to D&D).

It has four basic tenets and a convention, and that's it.

The convention is the "Named Spell" -- so Bigby's Hand, Nolzur's Wand, Tenser's Disk, Tasha's Hideous Laughter are all examples of this. It was the first to actually do this, and the structure of it is dependent on one of the rules.

The rules are:

1. Spells do one thing.
2. Spells must be prepared in advance of using them. 
3. When a spell is cast, it is gone from the mind of the user.(fire and forget)
4. Mages have a finite capacity for spells.

Onto that, D&D slapped a series of Spell Levels (not a thing in the books). Mages could only remember a certain number of spells each day (rule 4). If you wanted to have fireball three times, you had to memorize it three times, because each time you used it, you lost that time (Rules 2 and 3). And spells, for the most part, do one thing -- a fireball spell can only be used to create a fireball. A Divination can only used to get a specific divination.

Rationales for all of it really boils down to of the systems know in the early 70 to the folks like Arneson, gygax, et al, it was the easiest one for them to convert into a magic system with rules, in no small part because the rules were explained in Dying Earth, lol.

Spell Slots were added in as a way to let people play with spells, and was part of the Discworld influence that bled into the game's later era. Like the metamagic type type stuff, it was an addition to enable them to play around more within the system, taking advantage of a new mechanic without shifting the particulars of the existing game (read: rewriting the spells).

As a result, one of the thing that WotC hasn't realized yet is that in many cases, they basically own the spells of the game in the same way they own beholders: they effectively created them.  Some spells this isn't true of -- Prismatic Spray, for example, is a direct steal from Vance's Dying Earth. But others, oh hell yeah. Be a tough sell in court because they first have to establish originality at time of authorship, but yeah, it is doable.

Now, why would pedantic me be all up about this?

Because, as I have pointed out, I had to *not use vance* in Wyrlde. I do still have the "spells do one thing" rule (and even enforce it a little more rigidly) because hello, I already rewrote every spell once, and I almost vowed to never do it again because it is a nightmare, and I have the bound book to remind me of that hell. And that was 1985/86, so, yeah, doing it today is too much of a nightmare.

I also still have the "finite capacity" rule -- they can only remember so many -- but...

They do not forget it  until they go unconscious (knocked out or falling asleep).

I still have the "prepare in advance" rule (because that fits the system. Not even going to pretend otherwise.)

And I have the "spells take effort" rule, through the use of spell points, and a fatigue structure.

Then the rest has to work with existing systems outside of the Spell slot stuff.

Oh, and I banned "named spells" for lack of a better term, but more because of copyright stuff than anything else. I have 19 rules of magic, and honestly I am kinda looking to add six more, but have been stumped on them so that's where it has sat for years.

Now, there isn't anything wrong with Vancian magic, really,. It is part of the reason that psionics (which are much looser in pretty much any system) are hard, because they require doing psionics in a way that is similar in order to make most folks "get it". Thanks to D&D, the ideas of it have spread globally, and more or less mesh with other kinds of exisitng magic aorund the world, although that varies as well, lol.

It is now the default magic. books written after about 1983 use it widely, lol, and others have played around within it (including discworld) with varying degrees of humor, teasing, loopholing, and outright condemnation.

In my case, I was told that they wanted something different, spell point based, and "not vancian" because they had no clue really what Vancian was, and associated it entirely with spell levels, spell slots, and more. Note: they also wanted to use the D&D spells, lol. So, um, yeah, lol.

So imagine my surprise when I researched it (including re-reading Dying Earth, not among my fave novels)and realized that their biggest gripes were not with Vancian Magic, but with D&D mechanics, lol.

Gotta say, the use of spell slots as a concept bugs me personally (too meta in a lot of ways for my taste) but as a mechanic, it is freaking awesome when the goal is to "make a spell more powerful or more potent".  That was a concept that was missing from OG (Basic, Immortals, etc) D&D and should have been in AD&D.  But note that Vanian magic doesn't allow that -- you cannot oomph a spell. Because to do that means to to re-create it in a slightly different format, and that wasn't possible on the Dying Earth, where the ten spells that a mage might know as a whole were part of a lost Art, and had been carefully protected and guarded. They didn't do "create a pell" on Dying Earth or in Vancian magic -- they did "I found a spell and now I will spend the next five years figuring it out".

because hello, the Earth was Dying and everything was lost.

Spell slots actually break it away from Vancian Magic. But I did like the idea (and a lot of the metamagic stuff) enought hat I sought a way to incorporate it back into the spell point system developed .

Ok, my pedant is satisfied and isn't breathing hard anymore in a state of panic (she's weird, forgive her, she doesn't know any better).

I apologize on her behalf to all and sundry.

Holy wall-o’-text Batman! I wrote “pseudo-Vancian spell slot system.” As in not actually Vancian, but sortakanda akin to, only with spell slots. It’s alright, you can tell your inner pedant to cop a squat. 😂😂

She's a nightmare at times. I gotta let her out during the work week (i mean, kinda unavoidable) but I am so sorry she just up and did that. 

I even tried to distract her with a laser light and fuzz mouse.  usually coin works (shiny shiny), but I am broke and dragons can be so temperamental...

Quote from AEDorsay >>

QOTD:

What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?

Red Box Elf. I don't know exactly what year. I wish I could remember his name.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

She's a nightmare at times. I gotta let her out during the work week (i mean, kinda unavoidable) but I am so sorry she just up and did that. 

I even tried to distract her with a laser light and fuzz mouse.  usually coin works (shiny shiny), but I am broke and dragons can be so temperamental...

 
🤣😂🤣

Quote from Quar1on >>

Maybe the real magic is the friends we made along the way...

What do you mean by maybe? :)

Quote from AEDorsay >>

 

What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?

I feel kinda like a noob now knowing that most of the people here started playing way before I was born lol. But anyways, I started playing around 2018 or so and of course, 5th edition is what I was introduced to. My first character was a Dragonborn Fighter that I creatively named "Crusty".

Bard, don't let the numbers fool ya -- we all just have a few more dungeons under the belt is all. 

"T'ain't when ya started that matters -- 'tis that ya started at all!" -- Days, yelling at Daisy again.

Quote from BoringBard >>

Quote from Quar1on >>

Maybe the real magic is the friends we made along the way...

What do you mean by maybe? :)

Quote from AEDorsay >>

 

What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?

I feel kinda like a noob now knowing that most of the people here started playing way before I was born lol. But anyways, I started playing around 2018 or so and of course, 5th edition is what I was introduced to. My first character was a Dragonborn Fighter that I creatively named "Crusty".

 It’s all about your dedication to the game! I want to make games my career, which is going a bit farther than some people, but that means I might know more than a casual player with 20 years on me. Never worry yourself! The real people who are missing out on experience are anyone who starts on the next D&D edition…

Ah, but they will get it, and fairly fast, lol.

I am spending the day alternating between filling out a series of huge tables for trade goods (that will ultimately impact my entire commerce set up) and sorting/re-writing special abilities from the Feats and Special abilities here to fit with the new structure in the next campaign (where Everyone gets a choice at each level of something extra to add to their character, and this is the list of things; basically, every special ability from every class and subclass and every feat, plus a few).

So a huge part of me is bored to tears. They said game design was exciting, interesting. They gloss over the long boring parts, lol.

Quote from Quar1on >>

Quote from SirTawmis >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from AEDorsay>>

magic isn't real, y'know

I disagree. Fantasy Magic like in D&D might not be real, but magic exists all around us all the time, just most people don’t realize it.

 My Master's thesis in Sociology was literally on magic in the modern world, and I had to rewrite several times because they all kept missing the point that magic derives from a shared  sense of reality and I was highlighting that (without actually saying it, as I assumed they knew their own field if they dared to grade ME)

 
Why does a meal cooked with love taste better and be more satisfying than just regular food? Why is a sweater made with love cozier and comfier than off the rack clothes? Why do children (and some adults) get that shiver down their spines when mom yells for them using their whole name? 

 

The real burning questions are...

Why do they call them apartments when they're all connected?

Why is things by ship called cargo but things by cars are called shipment?

Why is it called a pair of pants when you only get one?

Why do we drive on a parkway but park on a driveway?

These.

These are the questions that keep me up at night...

It's like déjà vu all over again all over again...

Like I said... it keeps me up at night... :D

Quote from Wysperra >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

QOTD:

What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?

 

Red Box Elf. I don't know exactly what year. I wish I could remember his name.

 
Same, wish I could remember my first character's name too... considering how crushed I was back then, when he perished...

Then upset to learn it was because my friend and his brother had gotten into a squabble earlier in the day, and this was his brother's way at getting back at him...

That's what you call "Splash Damage"

Quote from BoringBard >>

Quote from Quar1on >>

Maybe the real magic is the friends we made along the way...

What do you mean by maybe? :)

Quote from AEDorsay >>

 

What was your very first Character, Edition, and year?

I feel kinda like a noob now knowing that most of the people here started playing way before I was born lol. But anyways, I started playing around 2018 or so and of course, 5th edition is what I was introduced to. My first character was a Dragonborn Fighter that I creatively named "Crusty".

No one's doing any "gating" of any kind - we're all here because we love the game.

When our time is gone and we ascend to the angels and demons, you can still be young and be like, "Remember those old adventurers that were like 'back in my day' and 'get off my lawn'... "

Ahem.

I would never say get off my lawn.

I live in a gated community that only allows gravel.

I would say get off my rocks.

(ok, sorry, again, she's being a pest, and I need to make some money to quiet her down and restore her hoard...)

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Ah, but they will get it, and fairly fast, lol.

I am spending the day alternating between filling out a series of huge tables for trade goods (that will ultimately impact my entire commerce set up) and sorting/re-writing special abilities from the Feats and Special abilities here to fit with the new structure in the next campaign (where Everyone gets a choice at each level of something extra to add to their character, and this is the list of things; basically, every special ability from every class and subclass and every feat, plus a few).

So a huge part of me is bored to tears. They said game design was exciting, interesting. They gloss over the long boring parts, lol.

 I feel you. I’ve been working on the crunchy, mechanical pieces of my system and it is making me feel like homebrewing for D&D is the better path. But we must never give up! It is us that pave the way into the unknown for others, so they might one day take on our worlds and systems and delve even deeper into the unknown abyss of *Things that aren’t D&D.* Oooo… spooky!

Quote from Amnon_Balderk >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Ah, but they will get it, and fairly fast, lol.

I am spending the day alternating between filling out a series of huge tables for trade goods (that will ultimately impact my entire commerce set up) and sorting/re-writing special abilities from the Feats and Special abilities here to fit with the new structure in the next campaign (where Everyone gets a choice at each level of something extra to add to their character, and this is the list of things; basically, every special ability from every class and subclass and every feat, plus a few).

So a huge part of me is bored to tears. They said game design was exciting, interesting. They gloss over the long boring parts, lol.

 I feel you. I’ve been working on the crunchy, mechanical pieces of my system and it is making me feel like homebrewing for D&D is the better path. But we must never give up! It is us that pave the way into the unknown for others, so they might one day take on our worlds and systems and delve even deeper into the unknown abyss of *Things that aren’t D&D.* Oooo… spooky!

  
egads! My stuff is absolutely D&D!  It is just D&D with MORE, lol.

Once I post up the Aspects stuff, folks will get why I killed subclasses, lol.  They are not needed, because you can still make your own — I made “home brew subs” a part of character design. The whining about how class X isn’t there is answered simply with “they aren’t in the setting” but they can be made (or super close to any of them) because excepting certain abilities only available to the main classes, all the rest is a choice away, lol.

Magic is different?  Oh yeah, it is. You can now cast fireball even if you are a cleric or paladin and you can cast it a bunch of times without forgetting it — but be wary of your energy.

Extra ability scores? Pshaw. Perception is already kind of its own, lol, Sanity is a standing option, and if you are going to have magic points a score helps out a lot for that (think prof bonus for spell casting).

I mean, yeah, I could just go whole hog and say “it ain’t D&D”, but honestly? I’d be lying, lol. it is 5e with some reworked stuff from 1e and 2e and spell points that I made easier onthe backend to plan out my encounters for.

I mean, if Dark Sun, Manteca, and the original Oriental Adventures were still D&D, what I have is absolutely still D&D. If Spelljammer is still D&D, what I am doing is. Just.. more. I only have 125 monsters created (roughly, lol) for it. ANd nearly all of them are variants on existing stuff int eh game.

But yes — this stuff is hard work, especially when you are as deep into the weeds as I am (I am now breaking my outfitting list — equipment tables — into assorted Guild lists so that I can have prices by shop and drop the whole “Marvelous Mercantile” thing, lol). Pain in the as, but now I’ll have the ability to do different prices in different locations for different goods, and more role playing because they hav to go to different places to get different things — and of course not all towns have a chandler, sheesh. 

Sadly, people are already saying it isn’t D&D here, so you have a point, lol. Long Live the Crunch!

Playtesting some of the class stuff in a different DM's campaign, and I am monitoring.

Comments so far:

1. I really like how each class is its own thing!
2. So we're all Sorcerers now?
3. OMG Look, look, I can have a bard that doesn't do magic and is instead just a fighter -- but they are still a bard!
4. So Envoy is basically the sneaky shadow lord class?
5. So rangers are Druids and druids are shamans?
6. So what you are telling me is that I can have a Paladin Blood Knight?
7. Did she plan out the backgrounds and the classes to go this well together?
8. So my Wizard has to pick between learning metamagic and how to use weapons and armor -- but can still learn to use a sword without the other stuff?
9. Sneaky, making the extra skill and language slots a whole thing.
10. Why are there three different kinds of clerics - cleric, Paladin, and shrinewhatever...?

Overall, they are liking it. The classes are not as powerful as 5e, but far more flexible and you can do some cool stuff (like the paladin that uses blood Knight stuff, lol). I was sweating this one, and am really happy with it.  They are running through a one shot (I think it is a slightly changed White Plume Mountain from the play by play) and getting a kick out of it. 

This is testing out the Aspects thingy, class progression, spell points (again) and spell damage (adding a twist regarding the score) and the classes.  This group has a Bard, two Paladins, a Ranger, a Vanguard, a Witch, a Warlock, an Envoy, and a Corsair. They have an NPC wizard, as well. 

9 players and an NPC Wizard...

Does your "circle of DMs" have rules to speed up combat, do the players all know their options really well, or does every combat take a couple hours?

Also, big fan of nonmagical Bards. And how dare they disrespect the Shrinewarden, who is totally different from Clerics in tons of ways that would make complete sense if I understood them!

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Playtesting some of the class stuff in a different DM's campaign, and I am monitoring.
Comments so far:

So rangers are Druids and druids are shamans?

Did you tell them not to call them Shamans? :)

Quote from SirTawmis >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Playtesting some of the class stuff in a different DM's campaign, and I am monitoring.
Comments so far:

So rangers are Druids and druids are shamans?

 

Did you tell them not to call them Shamans? :)

 
I did not. 

but one of my colleagues did, lol. Right after that.

Quote from Quar1on >>

9 players and an NPC Wizard...

Does your "circle of DMs" have rules to speed up combat, do the players all know their options really well, or does every combat take a couple hours?

Also, big fan of nonmagical Bards. And how dare they disrespect the Shrinewarden, who is totally different from Clerics in tons of ways that would make complete sense if I understood them!

 
we burn through combat fast with some pre rolls while others are going and pretty much everyone is super experienced, so not a lot of slow decisions and very little “um, ah” — tonight had four rounds of combat (and wow, the difference that finesse can make)  and each took about 20 minutes.

LOL! Shrinewardens are Magical Girls, basically, charged with defying despair and depression (which comes from the necrotic plane so they are the undead fighters, lol). Except not all are girls, so can’t call them that.

actual Clerics are now healers and buffers, not warriors ( divine wizards). Paladins are kickass Devil, demon, and gag hunters opposing corruption and the infernal. The real breakdown is 

Paladins Smite

Shrinewards Shield

Clerics Bless

they really like the new set up. They aren’t even done yet with the module and want tackle the grand daddy of killer dungeons next. Second group is testing tomorrow, and there is both a witch and a shrineward there. 

I was asked if was going to make a merchant class because of all the trade stuff I was doing as they played. I gave them my best don’t be silly look and then thought about it…