I am not sure if this where I should be asking this but I am looking for something that I feel to be a bit more specific kind of situation.
Lvl 10 character split class fighter (lvl 5 for extra attack) and warlock (lvl 5 for thirsting blade invocation) pact of the blade. Does not possess two weapon fighting style due to the weapons in question not really benefitting from it. Could someone wielding a whip with Ice damage (main hand) and another whip with thunder damage (off hand pact weapon) attack in the following manner? Assume that we are only attacking one target. Attack with main hand
Extra attack with off hand pact weapon
thirsting blade with off hand pact weapon?
This is the only order of attacking that I could see this working, and this seems to be a bit of a loophole when referencing rules regarding extra attack. I am operating under the fact that thirsting blade and extra attack could only be used once each per turn as that would get incredibly out of hand otherwise.
I guess another way to ask this would be would extra attack grant additional attack actions or does it grant the player the ability to use "extra attack" as an action? And I am guessing that this ruling should also apply to thirsting blade.
Both of the abilities give you the ability to "attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn".
They both modify the attack action. (And they both specifically say you can attack twice, so they don't stack.)
Two-weapon attack says:
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."
This is not the attack action, so neither extra attack nor thirsting blade affect it.
(Also, this should've gone to the "Rules & Game Mechanics" forum. This is the forum for getting support on the site.)
Yes, you can attack with 2 different 1 handed weapons with extra attack and they get their damage modifiers and everything without a fighting style. But extra attack and thirsting blade don't stack, per the multiclassing rules:
Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don’t add together. You can’t make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter’s version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock’s eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn’t give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
Yes, you can attack with 2 different 1 handed weapons with extra attack and they get their damage modifiers and everything without a fighting style. But extra attack and thirsting blade don't stack, per the multiclassing rules:
Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don’t add together. You can’t make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter’s version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock’s eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn’t give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
You confuse me. I understand extra attack and thirsting blade don’t stack. But what do you mean you can use extra attack to attack with two different weapons and get modifier to damage? Wouldn’t, by default, using two one handed weapons make it TWF so they need to be light and the “other hand” weapon get no damage modifier? I must not be understanding what you mean.
Yes, you can attack with 2 different 1 handed weapons with extra attack and they get their damage modifiers and everything without a fighting style. But extra attack and thirsting blade don't stack, per the multiclassing rules:
Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don’t add together. You can’t make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter’s version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock’s eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn’t give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
You confuse me. I understand extra attack and thirsting blade don’t stack. But what do you mean you can use extra attack to attack with two different weapons and get modifier to damage? Wouldn’t, by default, using two one handed weapons make it TWF so they need to be light and the “other hand” weapon get no damage modifier? I must not be understanding what you mean.
If you get multiple attacks per Attack action, each attack from that action can be with any weapon you are wielding, using your ability modifier as normal. You only lose the modifer if you use your bonus action for an additional attack, and that's also the only context where the light property matters.
So if you're wielding a longsword and a battleaxe, and you have Extra Attack, you can just attack twice, once with the sword and once with the axe, applying your Strength modifier both times to both hit and damage.
The Two Weapon Fighting rules allow you to make an attack as a Bonus Action with a Light weapon you hold in one hand when you attack with a Light weapon you hold in your other hand as part of your Attack Action. When using this bonus action to don't add your ability modifier to the damage dealt.
Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade allow you to make more than one attack when you use the Attack Action. There is no restriction saying the attacks must be with the same weapon. You are free to mix and match any of the attacks you can normally make with the Attack Action that are available to you.
So when you say modify the attack action should we think of it as Extra-attack changes "Attack" to "Attack/Attack" (giving you two attack options) or should we think of Extra-attack as it changing "Attack" to "Extra-Attack"?
I know this sounds like splitting hairs but if we use the first scenario then you could in theory using the method I described in my OP to gain an additional attack out of it due to the wording used in the "Thirsting Blade" Invocation which states "You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action". Again using that first scenario by the time the second attack is being used one would have only attacked once with their Pact weapon.
Now if we think of this using the second scenario then this goes down the drain. I could be way over thinking this but the wording and order of actions do really appear to create a loophole in rules. Either way, I really do appreciate your replies.
Again apologies, for posting this here. I have never posted to forums like this and was not able to locat the "Rules and Game Mechanics" but I could have been doing a piss poor job of searching too.
So when you say modify the attack action should we think of it as Extra-attack changes "Attack" to "Attack/Attack" (giving you two attack options) or should we think of Extra-attack as it changing "Attack" to "Extra-Attack"?
I know this sounds like splitting hairs but if we use the first scenario then you could in theory using the method I described in my OP to gain an additional attack out of it due to the wording used in the "Thirsting Blade" Invocation which states "You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action". Again using that first scenario by the time the second attack is being used one would have only attacked once with their Pact weapon.
Now if we think of this using the second scenario then this goes down the drain. I could be way over thinking this but the wording and order of actions do really appear to create a loophole in rules. Either way, I really do appreciate your replies.
Again apologies, for posting this here. I have never posted to forums like this and was not able to locat the "Rules and Game Mechanics" but I could have been doing a piss poor job of searching too.
It is more like extra attack changes "Attack action = 1 attack" to "Attack action = 2 attacks" and thirsting blade makes "Attack action = 1 attack or 2 attacks with pact."
So when you say modify the attack action should we think of it as Extra-attack changes "Attack" to "Attack/Attack" (giving you two attack options) or should we think of Extra-attack as it changing "Attack" to "Extra-Attack"?
I know this sounds like splitting hairs but if we use the first scenario then you could in theory using the method I described in my OP to gain an additional attack out of it due to the wording used in the "Thirsting Blade" Invocation which states "You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action". Again using that first scenario by the time the second attack is being used one would have only attacked once with their Pact weapon.
Now if we think of this using the second scenario then this goes down the drain. I could be way over thinking this but the wording and order of actions do really appear to create a loophole in rules. Either way, I really do appreciate your replies.
Again apologies, for posting this here. I have never posted to forums like this and was not able to locat the "Rules and Game Mechanics" but I could have been doing a piss poor job of searching too.
There's no fiddling involved.
As already stated above, if you get multiple attacks in a round then when you take the Attack action each of the attacks can be made with any of the weapons that you are holding (or draw during the action).
The Extra Attack and Thirsting blade don't stack, so you only get to attack twice when you take the Attack action (until you get one of the improved versions that grants a third attack).
(Note the use of "Attack action" and "attack" - it is very important to use the correct terminology.)
So when you say modify the attack action should we think of it as Extra-attack changes "Attack" to "Attack/Attack" (giving you two attack options) or should we think of Extra-attack as it changing "Attack" to "Extra-Attack"?
I know this sounds like splitting hairs but if we use the first scenario then you could in theory using the method I described in my OP to gain an additional attack out of it due to the wording used in the "Thirsting Blade" Invocation which states "You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action". Again using that first scenario by the time the second attack is being used one would have only attacked once with their Pact weapon.
Now if we think of this using the second scenario then this goes down the drain. I could be way over thinking this but the wording and order of actions do really appear to create a loophole in rules. Either way, I really do appreciate your replies.
Again apologies, for posting this here. I have never posted to forums like this and was not able to locat the "Rules and Game Mechanics" but I could have been doing a piss poor job of searching too.
You have actually answered the question in a satisfactory manner rather than just repeating the rules and I can also see where I have been misunderstanding some of the rules/terminology. Thank you very much for the clarification. Oh well for those shenanigans.
You have actually answered the question in a satisfactory manner rather than just repeating the rules and I can also see where I have been misunderstanding some of the rules/terminology. Thank you very much for the clarification. Oh well for those shenanigans.
If you want shenanigans, take a look at gloomstalker ranger. It gets an additional attack that does stack with extra attack, but only on turn 1. Turn 1, not action 1. Fighters get action surge giving them an entire additional action. So a level 7 (ranger 5/fighter 2) character can make 6 attacks on the first turn if combat.
Also Path of the Beast Barbarian with their Claw natural weapon gets an additional Claw attack once per turn if they make at least one Claw attack as part of their Attack Action. You only have access to the Claws while raging though. So at level 3 it is possible to make 2 claw attacks and at level 5 you can make one attack of your choice as well as two claw attacks with just your Action.
If you are okay with also using your Bonus Action to attack you might also be able to use Two Weapon Fighting at the same time. This depends on the DM allowing you to use Two Weapon Fighting even though you aren't holding both weapons during the whole turn, just when you make your Action weapon attack and Bonus Action weapon attack. Here is what that looks like:
Start off holding a Hand Axe in one hand, the other is empty. Round 1) Bonus Action: Rage; Action: Axe attack, Claw attack, Claw attack Round 2) Action: Claw attack, Claw attack, Axe attack; Draw second Hand Axe; Bonus Action: TWF Axe attack Round 3) Action: Axe attack; Bonus Action: TWF Axe attack; Stow second Hand Axe; Action(continued): Claw attack, Claw attack You can now cycle between the attack pattern of round 2 and round 3 as needed.
Another way to weaponize your Bonus Action as a Beast Barbarian is to multiclass into Monk. Your natural weapons count as Simple Weapons and thus qualify as Monk weapons. So as long as you don't wear armor or a shield you can use your Bonus Action to make an Unarmed Strike. Your Beast Claws can't be used for this but many racial natural weapons are specified as being able to be used to make an Unarmed Strike. Later you get Flurry of Blows so by character level 7 (5 Path of the Beast Barbarian/2 Monk) it is possible to make 3 attacks with your action and 2 attacks with your bonus action. The problem with this is you need a minimum of 13 Strength, 13 Dexterity, and 13 Wisdom and since Strength is going to be your damage dealing attribute (so you get the bonus Rage damage) your AC is going to be terrible.
However both of these are not optimal for damage output because Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master exists.
If you are okay with also using your Bonus Action to attack you might also be able to use Two Weapon Fighting at the same time. This depends on the DM allowing you to use Two Weapon Fighting even though you aren't holding both weapons during the whole turn, just when you make your Action weapon attack and Bonus Action weapon attack. Here is what that looks like:
Start off holding a Hand Axe in one hand, the other is empty. Round 1) Bonus Action: Rage; Action: Axe attack, Claw attack, Claw attack Round 2) Action: Claw attack, Claw attack, Axe attack; Draw second Hand Axe; Bonus Action: TWF Axe attack Round 3) Action: Axe attack; Bonus Action: TWF Axe attack; Stow second Hand Axe; Action(continued): Claw attack, Claw attack You can now cycle between the attack pattern of round 2 and round 3 as needed.
A fun way to do this is to MC into Soulblade Rogue. You manifest the soulblades only for the duration of the attack you make with them, so they effectively draw and stow themselves for free, and the bonus action attack is unambiguously legal. It also solves the Soulblade's issue of having no weapon in hand for off-turn attacks.
A fun way to do this is to MC into Soulblade Rogue. You manifest the soulblades only for the duration of the attack you make with them, so they effectively draw and stow themselves for free, and the bonus action attack is unambiguously legal. It also solves the Soulblade's issue of having no weapon in hand for off-turn attacks.
Good point! I hadn't looked too closely at the Soulknife and assumed it scaled off of int, but they are standard Finesse weapons.
I am not sure if this where I should be asking this but I am looking for something that I feel to be a bit more specific kind of situation.
Lvl 10 character split class fighter (lvl 5 for extra attack) and warlock (lvl 5 for thirsting blade invocation) pact of the blade. Does not possess two weapon fighting style due to the weapons in question not really benefitting from it. Could someone wielding a whip with Ice damage (main hand) and another whip with thunder damage (off hand pact weapon) attack in the following manner? Assume that we are only attacking one target. Attack with main hand
Extra attack with off hand pact weapon
thirsting blade with off hand pact weapon?
This is the only order of attacking that I could see this working, and this seems to be a bit of a loophole when referencing rules regarding extra attack. I am operating under the fact that thirsting blade and extra attack could only be used once each per turn as that would get incredibly out of hand otherwise.
I guess another way to ask this would be would extra attack grant additional attack actions or does it grant the player the ability to use "extra attack" as an action? And I am guessing that this ruling should also apply to thirsting blade.
Both of the abilities give you the ability to "attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn".
They both modify the attack action. (And they both specifically say you can attack twice, so they don't stack.)
Two-weapon attack says:
Yes, you can attack with 2 different 1 handed weapons with extra attack and they get their damage modifiers and everything without a fighting style. But extra attack and thirsting blade don't stack, per the multiclassing rules:
You confuse me. I understand extra attack and thirsting blade don’t stack. But what do you mean you can use extra attack to attack with two different weapons and get modifier to damage? Wouldn’t, by default, using two one handed weapons make it TWF so they need to be light and the “other hand” weapon get no damage modifier? I must not be understanding what you mean.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
If you get multiple attacks per Attack action, each attack from that action can be with any weapon you are wielding, using your ability modifier as normal. You only lose the modifer if you use your bonus action for an additional attack, and that's also the only context where the light property matters.
So if you're wielding a longsword and a battleaxe, and you have Extra Attack, you can just attack twice, once with the sword and once with the axe, applying your Strength modifier both times to both hit and damage.
The Two Weapon Fighting rules allow you to make an attack as a Bonus Action with a Light weapon you hold in one hand when you attack with a Light weapon you hold in your other hand as part of your Attack Action. When using this bonus action to don't add your ability modifier to the damage dealt.
Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade allow you to make more than one attack when you use the Attack Action. There is no restriction saying the attacks must be with the same weapon. You are free to mix and match any of the attacks you can normally make with the Attack Action that are available to you.
Thanks for clarifying, it just sounded weird in my head when I was reading that. But with the explanations it makes sense.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
So when you say modify the attack action should we think of it as Extra-attack changes "Attack" to "Attack/Attack" (giving you two attack options) or should we think of Extra-attack as it changing "Attack" to "Extra-Attack"?
I know this sounds like splitting hairs but if we use the first scenario then you could in theory using the method I described in my OP to gain an additional attack out of it due to the wording used in the "Thirsting Blade" Invocation which states "You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action". Again using that first scenario by the time the second attack is being used one would have only attacked once with their Pact weapon.
Now if we think of this using the second scenario then this goes down the drain. I could be way over thinking this but the wording and order of actions do really appear to create a loophole in rules. Either way, I really do appreciate your replies.
Again apologies, for posting this here. I have never posted to forums like this and was not able to locat the "Rules and Game Mechanics" but I could have been doing a piss poor job of searching too.
This thread was moved to Rules & Mechanics, so that's already covered for you.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
It is more like extra attack changes "Attack action = 1 attack" to "Attack action = 2 attacks" and thirsting blade makes "Attack action = 1 attack or 2 attacks with pact."
You have to pick one.
There's no fiddling involved.
As already stated above, if you get multiple attacks in a round then when you take the Attack action each of the attacks can be made with any of the weapons that you are holding (or draw during the action).
The Extra Attack and Thirsting blade don't stack, so you only get to attack twice when you take the Attack action (until you get one of the improved versions that grants a third attack).
(Note the use of "Attack action" and "attack" - it is very important to use the correct terminology.)
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
That was literally the second answer given to this thread. Worth reiterating since the same question it already answers is still being asked.
You have actually answered the question in a satisfactory manner rather than just repeating the rules and I can also see where I have been misunderstanding some of the rules/terminology. Thank you very much for the clarification. Oh well for those shenanigans.
If you want shenanigans, take a look at gloomstalker ranger. It gets an additional attack that does stack with extra attack, but only on turn 1. Turn 1, not action 1. Fighters get action surge giving them an entire additional action. So a level 7 (ranger 5/fighter 2) character can make 6 attacks on the first turn if combat.
Also Path of the Beast Barbarian with their Claw natural weapon gets an additional Claw attack once per turn if they make at least one Claw attack as part of their Attack Action. You only have access to the Claws while raging though. So at level 3 it is possible to make 2 claw attacks and at level 5 you can make one attack of your choice as well as two claw attacks with just your Action.
If you are okay with also using your Bonus Action to attack you might also be able to use Two Weapon Fighting at the same time. This depends on the DM allowing you to use Two Weapon Fighting even though you aren't holding both weapons during the whole turn, just when you make your Action weapon attack and Bonus Action weapon attack. Here is what that looks like:
Start off holding a Hand Axe in one hand, the other is empty.
Round 1) Bonus Action: Rage; Action: Axe attack, Claw attack, Claw attack
Round 2) Action: Claw attack, Claw attack, Axe attack; Draw second Hand Axe; Bonus Action: TWF Axe attack
Round 3) Action: Axe attack; Bonus Action: TWF Axe attack; Stow second Hand Axe; Action(continued): Claw attack, Claw attack
You can now cycle between the attack pattern of round 2 and round 3 as needed.
Another way to weaponize your Bonus Action as a Beast Barbarian is to multiclass into Monk. Your natural weapons count as Simple Weapons and thus qualify as Monk weapons. So as long as you don't wear armor or a shield you can use your Bonus Action to make an Unarmed Strike. Your Beast Claws can't be used for this but many racial natural weapons are specified as being able to be used to make an Unarmed Strike. Later you get Flurry of Blows so by character level 7 (5 Path of the Beast Barbarian/2 Monk) it is possible to make 3 attacks with your action and 2 attacks with your bonus action. The problem with this is you need a minimum of 13 Strength, 13 Dexterity, and 13 Wisdom and since Strength is going to be your damage dealing attribute (so you get the bonus Rage damage) your AC is going to be terrible.
However both of these are not optimal for damage output because Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master exists.
A fun way to do this is to MC into Soulblade Rogue. You manifest the soulblades only for the duration of the attack you make with them, so they effectively draw and stow themselves for free, and the bonus action attack is unambiguously legal. It also solves the Soulblade's issue of having no weapon in hand for off-turn attacks.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Good point! I hadn't looked too closely at the Soulknife and assumed it scaled off of int, but they are standard Finesse weapons.
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
Is it a mistyping and you meant "for off-hand attacks"?
You won't have a soulblade for any opportunity attacks (off-turn attacks?) since it only manifests when performing an Attack action.
That's exactly his point. A Soulblade usually have trouble because of that fact but if you're a Beast Barbarian then you have the claws ready instead.