So when I look at the change shape action for metallic dragons, it doesn't specify that they keep immunity in their new form. Are they supposed to lose that immunity when shaped like something else?
Correct, damage immunities are not on the list of things that they retain when they change shape.
This is logical if you assume that the immunity to the dragon's own main damage type is a consequence of the physical structure of its body, which is different when it changes form. Remember this is an actual physical change the dragon is undergoing, not an illusion like Disguise Self.
I suppose, but if we're going by that logic, a dragon should lose a bunch of hp when taking the shape of anything that has less constitution than it. That gold dragon physically becomes a canary; it shouldn't face tank a critical hit from a great sword with a blade wider than its body and still live.
Humor aside, "Hit Points (HP) are a measure of how difficult it is to kill or destroy a creature or an object." (2024 PHB)
It may or may not be easier to kill or destroy a dragon that has changed shape. The dragon still has countless years of experience to practice not getting hit by a sword in the face, etc.
I suppose, but if we're going by that logic, a dragon should lose a bunch of hp when taking the shape of anything that has less constitution than it. That gold dragon physically becomes a canary; it shouldn't face tank a critical hit from a great sword with a blade wider than its body and still live.
It depends how you interpret what HP actually is. HP is a "complicated" breakdown of a lot of different factors. Take a 10th level fighter and a 1st level fighter. An opponent hits the target with a blade that is equal to X points. For the 1st Level, that damage is a sizable portion of their HP, and for the 10th Level, that is a very very small percentage. Why? because of the experience learned, the 10th level fighter knows how to move/absorb/etc. in receiving the blow so it would hit the actual "armoured" part which absorbs via physics the blow that dissipates the potential damage. The 1st level fighter does not know how to do that so they absorb the force of the blow and very little is dissipated.
While I do understand that fighter analogy, I think a large part of my issue is that there's a stats issue at play as well. Say you have a level 15 sorcerer with 10 con and an amulet of health. The amulet makes his con 19, meaning he has 60 more hit points than normal. If a creature swipes the amulet, that's 60 less hp from the con change. I get that the dragon thing bypasses this issue RAW, but it's still an observation.
I'll probably just rule 0 the matter at the end of the day; I just don't want to do that more than I already am, since some metallic dragons have that ability as an adult and others don't, for some reason.
While I do understand that fighter analogy, I think a large part of my issue is that there's a stats issue at play as well. Say you have a level 15 sorcerer with 10 con and an amulet of health. The amulet makes his con 19, meaning he has 60 more hit points than normal. If a creature swipes the amulet, that's 60 less hp from the con change. I get that the dragon thing bypasses this issue RAW, but it's still an observation.
I'll probably just rule 0 the matter at the end of the day; I just don't want to do that more than I already am, since some metallic dragons have that ability as an adult and others don't, for some reason.
Understand, As i said it is a complicated list of variables. One can say about that observation is actually that the amulet gives (limited) "instant healing" which is why when removed, you lose HP.
Yes. For example, a Gold Dragon’s Change Shape action retains only the statistics and capabilities specified in the description, with all other traits replaced by the new form’s stat block.
Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice).
In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.
Notably, Damage Immunities and Damage Resistances are excluded from the retained traits, while Hit Points (HP) and Hit Dice (HD) are preserved. How should this be interpreted? Consider PHB 2024’s description of HP:
Hit Points represent durability and the will to live. Creatures with more Hit Points are more difficult to kill. Your Hit Point maximum is the number of Hit Points you have when uninjured. Your current Hit Points can be any number from that maximum down to 0, which is the lowest Hit Points can go.
Whenever you take damage, subtract it from your Hit Points. Hit Point loss has no effect on your capabilities until you reach 0 Hit Points.
The phrase “durability and the will to live” is intriguing. Given that “Hit Point loss has no effect on your capabilities until you reach 0 Hit Points”, interpreting HP loss as purely “physical injury” contradicts D&D’s fictional logic. A more coherent interpretation is that HP functions akin to a Posture(in the Souls series in Sekiro): when depleted, the creature becomes incapacitated and vulnerable to lethal strikes. This aligns with PHB 2024’s Dropping to 0 Hit Points section (e.g., “Falling Unconscious”) and explains why creatures at 0 HP retain AC and continue to receive damage or make Death Saving Throws.
True, but for the purposes of our discussion, such discrepancies are ultimately inconsequential.
Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice).
In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.
Your game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the chosen form, but you retain your creature type; alignment; personality; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; Hit Points; Hit Point Dice; proficiencies; and ability to communicate. If you have the Spellcasting feature, you retain it too.
Upon shape-shifting, you determine whether your equipment drops to the ground or changes in size and shape to fit the new form while you’re in it.
However, whether Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions are retained emerges as a new issue. MM 2014 states:
If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn't gain that form's legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects.
Yet the 2025 rules appear to omit this clause. Does this mean a polymorphed dragon can no longer use its Legendary Actions? Conversely, could a player’s Shapechange spell grant access to Legendary Actions? Regardless of the eventual ruling, either interpretation risks problematic implications.
True, but for the purposes of our discussion, such discrepancies are ultimately inconsequential.
I think the differences between editions are relevant. In fact, you asked some questions:
However, whether Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions are retained emerges as a new issue. MM 2014 states:
If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn't gain that form's legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects.
Yet the 2025 rules appear to omit this clause. Does this mean a polymorphed dragon can no longer use its Legendary Actions? Conversely, could a player’s Shapechange spell grant access to Legendary Actions? Regardless of the eventual ruling, either interpretation risks problematic implications.
With the new Shapechange or True Polymorph, you can use the Legendary Actions or Lair Actions of the chosen creature—the 2014 limitation is gone.
With the new Shapechange or True Polymorph, you can use the Legendary Actions or Lair Actions of the chosen creature—the 2014 limitation is gone.
My point is that regarding Damage Immunities, Damage Resistance, and “what Hit Points represent in D&D”, the differences between the 2014 and 2025 Monster Manuals are ultimately negligible.
However, concerning the retention of the polymorphed creature’s Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions—are you certain? Is there any RAW or RAI source confirming this? This seems highly implausible.
I suppose, but if we're going by that logic, a dragon should lose a bunch of hp when taking the shape of anything that has less constitution than it.
This is a valid complaint imo. The shape changing effects in this game don't ever seem to work that way, but it would probably make more sense if they did. The change in your Constitution score should affect your HP total.
This might have been overlooked, or it might have intentionally been ignored in the name of simplicity.
I'd put this in a similar category as an unconscious creature maintaining all of his AC including the portion that comes from his Dexterity score. When you think about that for even just a little bit that makes no sense at all.
As a side note, 2014 had an explicit rule about the general relationship between the Constitution score and the total HP:
If your Constitution modifier changes, your hit point maximum changes as well, as though you had the new modifier from 1st level. For example, if you raise your Constitution score when you reach 4th level and your Constitution modifier increases from +1 to +2, you adjust your hit point maximum as though the modifier had always been +2. So you add 3 hit points for your first three levels, and then roll your hit points for 4th level using your new modifier. Or if you're 7th level and some effect lowers your Constitution score so as to reduce your Constitution modifier by 1, your hit point maximum is reduced by 7.
But, in 2024, the closest that I could find to the above rule is in the procedure for leveling up:
Adjust Ability Modifiers. If you choose a feat that increases one or more of your ability scores, your ability modifier also changes if the new score is an even number. When that happens, adjust all the numbers on your character sheet that use that ability modifier. When your Constitution modifier increases by 1, your Hit Point maximum increases by 1 for each level you have attained. For example, if a character reaches level 8 and increases their Constitution score from 17 to 18, the Constitution modifier increases to +4. The character’s Hit Point maximum then increases by 8, in addition to the Hit Points gained for reaching level 8.
It seems that the possibility of your total HP being lowered as a result of your Constitution score being lowered is never addressed in the new rules . . .
Do we still think that that is the rule in 2024? Or has that been intentionally changed such that a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP? Where is the rule for this now???
However, concerning the retention of the polymorphed creature’s Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions—are you certain? Is there any RAW or RAI source confirming this? This seems highly implausible.
I'm not aware of any sources beyond the current books, but it seems to be the case. This has also been highlighted in some threads
It seems that the possibility of your total HP being lowered as a result of your Constitution score being lowered is never addressed in the new rules . . .
Do we still think that that is the rule in 2024? Or has that been intentionally changed such that a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP? Where is the rule for this now???
Maybe "a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP"?
It seems that the possibility of your total HP being lowered as a result of your Constitution score being lowered is never addressed in the new rules . . .
Do we still think that that is the rule in 2024? Or has that been intentionally changed such that a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP? Where is the rule for this now???
Maybe "a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP"?
I certainly hope that's not the case, or every party is going to pass around the amulet of health so everyone permanently gets the HP bonus from having 19 constitution.
It seems that the possibility of your total HP being lowered as a result of your Constitution score being lowered is never addressed in the new rules . . .
Do we still think that that is the rule in 2024? Or has that been intentionally changed such that a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP? Where is the rule for this now???
Maybe "a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP"?
I certainly hope that's not the case, or every party is going to pass around the amulet of health so everyone permanently gets the HP bonus from having 19 constitution.
Isn't the use of an amulet/or any wearable magic item different from the actual ability? Why do you keep bringing up this amulet and make it sound as if it is a basic item that everyone has?
The point being made here is that if you add a rule that says your Constitution being decreased doesn't decrease your HP, then arguably taking off that amulet (which returns your Constitution score to normal) wouldn't remove the extra HP you got from having it on. Thus you could get one amulet and have each person in the party put it on and then take it off, giving them all a permanent HP boost without any of them having to use up an attunement slot on it, which is clearly not how the item was intended to work.
Wagnarokkr hit the nail on the head. I have issues with the new rules leaving info out that breaks the game, much like how a wizard can just polymorph his allies into mammoths, end concentration, and give them all over 100 temp hp. That's clearly not the point of polymorph, but due to the wording of the spell, you don't lose the temp hp after the spell ends.
Edit: I am not savvy enough to do the spell link thing, so you'll have to look up the spell or hope someone else can.
The point being made here is that if you add a rule that says your Constitution being decreased doesn't decrease your HP, then arguably taking off that amulet (which returns your Constitution score to normal) wouldn't remove the extra HP you got from having it on. Thus you could get one amulet and have each person in the party put it on and then take it off, giving them all a permanent HP boost without any of them having to use up an attunement slot on it, which is clearly not how the item was intended to work.
And I agree. I think the 2014 CON rule should be restored or somehow incorporated into the 2024 rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So when I look at the change shape action for metallic dragons, it doesn't specify that they keep immunity in their new form. Are they supposed to lose that immunity when shaped like something else?
Correct, damage immunities are not on the list of things that they retain when they change shape.
This is logical if you assume that the immunity to the dragon's own main damage type is a consequence of the physical structure of its body, which is different when it changes form. Remember this is an actual physical change the dragon is undergoing, not an illusion like Disguise Self.
pronouns: he/she/they
I suppose, but if we're going by that logic, a dragon should lose a bunch of hp when taking the shape of anything that has less constitution than it. That gold dragon physically becomes a canary; it shouldn't face tank a critical hit from a great sword with a blade wider than its body and still live.
/s gestures broadly "Magic!"
Humor aside, "Hit Points (HP) are a measure of how difficult it is to kill or destroy a creature or an object." (2024 PHB)
It may or may not be easier to kill or destroy a dragon that has changed shape. The dragon still has countless years of experience to practice not getting hit by a sword in the face, etc.
It depends how you interpret what HP actually is. HP is a "complicated" breakdown of a lot of different factors. Take a 10th level fighter and a 1st level fighter. An opponent hits the target with a blade that is equal to X points. For the 1st Level, that damage is a sizable portion of their HP, and for the 10th Level, that is a very very small percentage. Why? because of the experience learned, the 10th level fighter knows how to move/absorb/etc. in receiving the blow so it would hit the actual "armoured" part which absorbs via physics the blow that dissipates the potential damage. The 1st level fighter does not know how to do that so they absorb the force of the blow and very little is dissipated.
While I do understand that fighter analogy, I think a large part of my issue is that there's a stats issue at play as well. Say you have a level 15 sorcerer with 10 con and an amulet of health. The amulet makes his con 19, meaning he has 60 more hit points than normal. If a creature swipes the amulet, that's 60 less hp from the con change. I get that the dragon thing bypasses this issue RAW, but it's still an observation.
I'll probably just rule 0 the matter at the end of the day; I just don't want to do that more than I already am, since some metallic dragons have that ability as an adult and others don't, for some reason.
Understand, As i said it is a complicated list of variables. One can say about that observation is actually that the amulet gives (limited) "instant healing" which is why when removed, you lose HP.
Yes. For example, a Gold Dragon’s Change Shape action retains only the statistics and capabilities specified in the description, with all other traits replaced by the new form’s stat block.
Notably, Damage Immunities and Damage Resistances are excluded from the retained traits, while Hit Points (HP) and Hit Dice (HD) are preserved. How should this be interpreted? Consider PHB 2024’s description of HP:
The phrase “durability and the will to live” is intriguing. Given that “Hit Point loss has no effect on your capabilities until you reach 0 Hit Points”, interpreting HP loss as purely “physical injury” contradicts D&D’s fictional logic. A more coherent interpretation is that HP functions akin to a Posture(in the Souls series in Sekiro): when depleted, the creature becomes incapacitated and vulnerable to lethal strikes. This aligns with PHB 2024’s Dropping to 0 Hit Points section (e.g., “Falling Unconscious”) and explains why creatures at 0 HP retain AC and continue to receive damage or make Death Saving Throws.
Be careful, as you're using the Legacy version for the explanation. The 2024 dragons use the spell directly, adding some conditions.
Example for an Adult Gold Dragon:
EDIT: fix grammar.
True, but for the purposes of our discussion, such discrepancies are ultimately inconsequential.
However, whether Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions are retained emerges as a new issue. MM 2014 states:
Yet the 2025 rules appear to omit this clause. Does this mean a polymorphed dragon can no longer use its Legendary Actions? Conversely, could a player’s Shapechange spell grant access to Legendary Actions? Regardless of the eventual ruling, either interpretation risks problematic implications.
With the new Shapechange or True Polymorph, you can use the Legendary Actions or Lair Actions of the chosen creature—the 2014 limitation is gone.
My point is that regarding Damage Immunities, Damage Resistance, and “what Hit Points represent in D&D”, the differences between the 2014 and 2025 Monster Manuals are ultimately negligible.
However, concerning the retention of the polymorphed creature’s Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions—are you certain? Is there any RAW or RAI source confirming this? This seems highly implausible.
This is a valid complaint imo. The shape changing effects in this game don't ever seem to work that way, but it would probably make more sense if they did. The change in your Constitution score should affect your HP total.
This might have been overlooked, or it might have intentionally been ignored in the name of simplicity.
I'd put this in a similar category as an unconscious creature maintaining all of his AC including the portion that comes from his Dexterity score. When you think about that for even just a little bit that makes no sense at all.
As a side note, 2014 had an explicit rule about the general relationship between the Constitution score and the total HP:
But, in 2024, the closest that I could find to the above rule is in the procedure for leveling up:
It seems that the possibility of your total HP being lowered as a result of your Constitution score being lowered is never addressed in the new rules . . .
Do we still think that that is the rule in 2024? Or has that been intentionally changed such that a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP? Where is the rule for this now???
I'm not aware of any sources beyond the current books, but it seems to be the case. This has also been highlighted in some threads
- New shapechange spell
- 2025 Monster Manual, Legendary Actions and Shapechange/True Polymorph
Also somewhat related: Shapechange (spell) clarification
Maybe "a reduction in your Constitution score no longer impacts HP"?
I certainly hope that's not the case, or every party is going to pass around the amulet of health so everyone permanently gets the HP bonus from having 19 constitution.
Isn't the use of an amulet/or any wearable magic item different from the actual ability? Why do you keep bringing up this amulet and make it sound as if it is a basic item that everyone has?
The point being made here is that if you add a rule that says your Constitution being decreased doesn't decrease your HP, then arguably taking off that amulet (which returns your Constitution score to normal) wouldn't remove the extra HP you got from having it on. Thus you could get one amulet and have each person in the party put it on and then take it off, giving them all a permanent HP boost without any of them having to use up an attunement slot on it, which is clearly not how the item was intended to work.
pronouns: he/she/they
Wagnarokkr hit the nail on the head. I have issues with the new rules leaving info out that breaks the game, much like how a wizard can just polymorph his allies into mammoths, end concentration, and give them all over 100 temp hp. That's clearly not the point of polymorph, but due to the wording of the spell, you don't lose the temp hp after the spell ends.
Edit: I am not savvy enough to do the spell link thing, so you'll have to look up the spell or hope someone else can.
And I agree. I think the 2014 CON rule should be restored or somehow incorporated into the 2024 rules.