So we have been traveling through a super-dungeon fairly heavily populated by Bugbears and have been ambushed by them twice already. We come up to a closed door and the rogue listens and hears gruff voices speaking in goblinoid on the other size in a hushed tone. Obviously some bugbears are past there prepping yet another ambush, but this time we are ready. We ready our weapons and throw open the door only to find a hall that leads 15 feet into a T-intersection. “Well,” I say, “looks like the bugbears are hiding behind those corners up ahead” as I ready an arrow in my bow to shoot the first bugbear that jumps out at us. The party’s cleric rolls perception and gets a 21 but spots nothing so he moves forward with me covering him and of course two bugbears jump out from behind the corners and “Suprise” us. I say “sweet, does that mean that my arrow goes off?” But the DM tells me No because “I can’t take a reaction while surprised”.
He says that because their stealth beat our perception they get to surprise us even though we knew that they were there and that they were about to attack.
Literally the next room we enter has another corner like the one we passed through and I declared that I wanted to fire an arrow at the space as the width of the hallway gave me clear line of sight but he didn’t let me and of course there was a bugbear there that got to “Surprise” us again paralyzing me with an arrow literally pointed at him
All I can find in RAW is that if they beat your perception with their stealth you get surprised, otherwise the DM determines surprise however they please, but something feels odd about being caught off guard by an enemy you literally just spent an action preparing to shoot. Is this how the game is meant to be played? Do we just have to pay the bugbear tax whenever they set up an ambush?
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Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
As the DM if you told me you listened at the door and I responded you hear voices on the other side, then I would also rule that no, you're not surprised because you knew they were there preparing.
I also wouldn't have another Perception roll because you already know they're hiding behind the corners.
However, your DM is different from me, and the way they rule at their table is what you have to accept.
There are some rules that apply to this. The first that comes to mind is from SRD about Unseen targets... "When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the GM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly."
So you can in fact target, and hit, an unseen creature if you suspect you know where it is, as the case of the second encounter in the hallway.
The other is that hiding is very specific about making noise "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase."
So you having heard them gives away their position in the case of the first encounter.
It sounds like your DM might be a little inexperienced and trying to "make things more exciting" but doesn't understand the mechanics to do so. The whole issue could have been avoided if you'd not had warning that the bugbears were in the first room. That was an error on the DM's part. If the bugbears were hiding on something that beats the clerics 21 I doubt they would be making enough noise to be heard through the door.
Honestly, I think the DM here has acted “correctly” by RAW, but in a way that strains common sense. You know they’re there, but you can’t see them. The rules don’t make an exception here: you can be surprised.
The rule says “Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.” This is ambiguous. Your DM seems to be reading in the following way: “even though you know there’s a threat somewhere, you can’t point out a specific threat, so it can’t be said that you’ve noticed one.” That’s a reasonable and accurate reading of the rule. It’d be just as reasonable and accurate to say “of course I’ve noticed a threat, I know they’re coming.”
I would run this scenario with the latter interpretation. If you’re prepared, you’re not surprised. But your DM made a different call, and they’re not wrong by the book.
Honestly, I think the DM here has acted “correctly” by RAW, but in a way that strains common sense. You know they’re there, but you can’t see them. The rules don’t make an exception here: you can be surprised.
The rule says “Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.” This is ambiguous. Your DM seems to be reading in the following way: “even though you know there’s a threat somewhere, you can’t point out a specific threat, so it can’t be said that you’ve noticed one.” That’s a reasonable and accurate reading of the rule. It’d be just as reasonable and accurate to say “of course I’ve noticed a threat, I know they’re coming.”
I would run this scenario with the latter interpretation. If you’re prepared, you’re not surprised. But your DM made a different call, and they’re not wrong by the book.
Say he is determining known threats based on line of sight only and not sound or knowing the enemy is present because you just heard them talking. Take the example of a bugbear standing in a hallway waiting. He has standard darkvision of 60 ft, probably the same for the players. Even though he can hear the players in the hallway and the players know there is a bugbear in the hallway, they come into each other's sight at the same time. They would still have to both roll surprise.
But I would have to say the ruling in the hallway was fair if there was a torch or something that made them visible before the bugbear or if they thought there is probably a bugbear and there wasn't sound or anything to give it away.
As long as he holds the same rule for monsters, I guess. You can be as loud as you want, but as long as they can't see you...
I would refer to this as the "Video game/MMO Effect". You can be fighting a battle in a loud, very noticeable battle... but because it happens out of the sight range of the enemy reinforcements, they completely ignore it.
Just tell the DM that you are hiding before you open the door. The bugbear has a passive perception of 10 so the odds are good that you will succeed on the hide check. Then the DM can scratch their head trying to resolve a situation where both sides are hidden from each other.
Your DM is likely basing his interpretation on the following: PHB p189
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
If no one notices each other then everyone is surprised :) or perhaps no one is ...
Anyway, each DM might play it differently.
1) If I was running it, if you heard the bugbears in the next room then you would not be surprised even if they jump out from around a corner since you KNOW they are there. The key in the surprise rule is "any character that doesn't notice a threat". By hearing them you have noticed a threat and will not be surprised. The bugbear may STILL be hidden since their stealth check was higher than your passive perception so they will have advantage on the first round (with a ranged attack if they are not next to you) but they would not surprise you.
2) The rules specifically call out shooting at locations that are empty. However,
"You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. Also, the question isn’t whether a creature can see you when you’re hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly."
If you can see a location clearly then an opponent can't hide there. If the creature is not hidden, it can not surprise you. It sounds to me that the DM needs to have a better idea of what is required to hide. It doesn't matter what the stealth skill of a character is ... it could be +17 ... but they still can't hide from anything if they can be seen. If you can see around a corner, then no matter how good the bugbear's stealth roll, you still see them, they aren't hidden, and they don't surprise you.
I suspect the bugbear's "surprise attack" feature has a lot to do with this particular instance.
Surprise Attack. If the bugbear surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 7 (2d6) damage from the attack.
I think the DM may have it in their mind that this feature really needs to happen in these bugbear encounters. Unfortunately it is coming off as a little bit of a railroad. I am sure with a little review of the circumstances the DM can smooth out these encounters.
I'm kind of surprised no one has addressed the situation where the rogue detected the bugbears through the door. Clearly this was a case where his perception beat their stealth.
But then the door opened and for some reason the cleric had to also roll perception and failed. And then when the bugbears jumped out, the guy who had detected them was surprised.
This is not RAW, it's not honest, and it's not okay. They were detected, but then immediately after they weren't? It's like the DM is going to call for contested checks until he wins.
This is not how you DM. Your job isn't to hide behind the rules so you can "gotcha" your party. He should be happy that the party is trying to develop tactics to counter his own and that behavior should be rewarded. What this kind of situation ultimately boils down to is a total loss of agency: you're going to be surprised no matter what you do, because that's what the DM wants. And when your choices and preparation doesn't ever matter, you are just a prop in the DM's story and the game isn't fun.
I'm not saying this was done maliciously, but your DM really needs to learn (or unlearn) some fundamentals behind running a game.
Yeah, I don't agree with your DM here. You DID know where the bugbears are - it makes no sense that they can "surprise" you if you know where they are.
It comes back to the fact that you should only be making rolls for something when there's a chance of success and a chance of failure. If you already know where the bugbears are, there should be no chance of somehow not knowing that, so no need to "roll stealth" or anything like that.
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So we have been traveling through a super-dungeon fairly heavily populated by Bugbears and have been ambushed by them twice already. We come up to a closed door and the rogue listens and hears gruff voices speaking in goblinoid on the other size in a hushed tone. Obviously some bugbears are past there prepping yet another ambush, but this time we are ready. We ready our weapons and throw open the door only to find a hall that leads 15 feet into a T-intersection. “Well,” I say, “looks like the bugbears are hiding behind those corners up ahead” as I ready an arrow in my bow to shoot the first bugbear that jumps out at us. The party’s cleric rolls perception and gets a 21 but spots nothing so he moves forward with me covering him and of course two bugbears jump out from behind the corners and “Suprise” us. I say “sweet, does that mean that my arrow goes off?” But the DM tells me No because “I can’t take a reaction while surprised”.
He says that because their stealth beat our perception they get to surprise us even though we knew that they were there and that they were about to attack.
Literally the next room we enter has another corner like the one we passed through and I declared that I wanted to fire an arrow at the space as the width of the hallway gave me clear line of sight but he didn’t let me and of course there was a bugbear there that got to “Surprise” us again paralyzing me with an arrow literally pointed at him
All I can find in RAW is that if they beat your perception with their stealth you get surprised, otherwise the DM determines surprise however they please, but something feels odd about being caught off guard by an enemy you literally just spent an action preparing to shoot. Is this how the game is meant to be played? Do we just have to pay the bugbear tax whenever they set up an ambush?
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
As the DM if you told me you listened at the door and I responded you hear voices on the other side, then I would also rule that no, you're not surprised because you knew they were there preparing.
I also wouldn't have another Perception roll because you already know they're hiding behind the corners.
However, your DM is different from me, and the way they rule at their table is what you have to accept.
There are some rules that apply to this. The first that comes to mind is from SRD about Unseen targets... "When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the GM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly."
So you can in fact target, and hit, an unseen creature if you suspect you know where it is, as the case of the second encounter in the hallway.
The other is that hiding is very specific about making noise "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase."
So you having heard them gives away their position in the case of the first encounter.
It sounds like your DM might be a little inexperienced and trying to "make things more exciting" but doesn't understand the mechanics to do so. The whole issue could have been avoided if you'd not had warning that the bugbears were in the first room. That was an error on the DM's part. If the bugbears were hiding on something that beats the clerics 21 I doubt they would be making enough noise to be heard through the door.
That's my take on it anyway.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
Do the bugbears also check to see if they're surprised even though they heard you coming? If not, what is the reason provided by your dm?
Honestly, I think the DM here has acted “correctly” by RAW, but in a way that strains common sense. You know they’re there, but you can’t see them. The rules don’t make an exception here: you can be surprised.
The rule says “Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.” This is ambiguous. Your DM seems to be reading in the following way: “even though you know there’s a threat somewhere, you can’t point out a specific threat, so it can’t be said that you’ve noticed one.” That’s a reasonable and accurate reading of the rule. It’d be just as reasonable and accurate to say “of course I’ve noticed a threat, I know they’re coming.”
I would run this scenario with the latter interpretation. If you’re prepared, you’re not surprised. But your DM made a different call, and they’re not wrong by the book.
Say he is determining known threats based on line of sight only and not sound or knowing the enemy is present because you just heard them talking. Take the example of a bugbear standing in a hallway waiting. He has standard darkvision of 60 ft, probably the same for the players. Even though he can hear the players in the hallway and the players know there is a bugbear in the hallway, they come into each other's sight at the same time. They would still have to both roll surprise.
But I would have to say the ruling in the hallway was fair if there was a torch or something that made them visible before the bugbear or if they thought there is probably a bugbear and there wasn't sound or anything to give it away.
As long as he holds the same rule for monsters, I guess. You can be as loud as you want, but as long as they can't see you...
I would refer to this as the "Video game/MMO Effect". You can be fighting a battle in a loud, very noticeable battle... but because it happens out of the sight range of the enemy reinforcements, they completely ignore it.
Just tell the DM that you are hiding before you open the door. The bugbear has a passive perception of 10 so the odds are good that you will succeed on the hide check. Then the DM can scratch their head trying to resolve a situation where both sides are hidden from each other.
Your DM is likely basing his interpretation on the following: PHB p189
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
If no one notices each other then everyone is surprised :) or perhaps no one is ...
Anyway, each DM might play it differently.
1) If I was running it, if you heard the bugbears in the next room then you would not be surprised even if they jump out from around a corner since you KNOW they are there. The key in the surprise rule is "any character that doesn't notice a threat". By hearing them you have noticed a threat and will not be surprised. The bugbear may STILL be hidden since their stealth check was higher than your passive perception so they will have advantage on the first round (with a ranged attack if they are not next to you) but they would not surprise you.
2) The rules specifically call out shooting at locations that are empty. However,
"You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. Also, the question isn’t whether a creature can see you when you’re hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly."
If you can see a location clearly then an opponent can't hide there. If the creature is not hidden, it can not surprise you. It sounds to me that the DM needs to have a better idea of what is required to hide. It doesn't matter what the stealth skill of a character is ... it could be +17 ... but they still can't hide from anything if they can be seen. If you can see around a corner, then no matter how good the bugbear's stealth roll, you still see them, they aren't hidden, and they don't surprise you.
I suspect the bugbear's "surprise attack" feature has a lot to do with this particular instance.
Surprise Attack. If the bugbear surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 7 (2d6) damage from the attack.
I think the DM may have it in their mind that this feature really needs to happen in these bugbear encounters. Unfortunately it is coming off as a little bit of a railroad. I am sure with a little review of the circumstances the DM can smooth out these encounters.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I'm kind of surprised no one has addressed the situation where the rogue detected the bugbears through the door. Clearly this was a case where his perception beat their stealth.
But then the door opened and for some reason the cleric had to also roll perception and failed. And then when the bugbears jumped out, the guy who had detected them was surprised.
This is not RAW, it's not honest, and it's not okay. They were detected, but then immediately after they weren't? It's like the DM is going to call for contested checks until he wins.
This is not how you DM. Your job isn't to hide behind the rules so you can "gotcha" your party. He should be happy that the party is trying to develop tactics to counter his own and that behavior should be rewarded. What this kind of situation ultimately boils down to is a total loss of agency: you're going to be surprised no matter what you do, because that's what the DM wants. And when your choices and preparation doesn't ever matter, you are just a prop in the DM's story and the game isn't fun.
I'm not saying this was done maliciously, but your DM really needs to learn (or unlearn) some fundamentals behind running a game.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah, I don't agree with your DM here. You DID know where the bugbears are - it makes no sense that they can "surprise" you if you know where they are.
It comes back to the fact that you should only be making rolls for something when there's a chance of success and a chance of failure. If you already know where the bugbears are, there should be no chance of somehow not knowing that, so no need to "roll stealth" or anything like that.