I noticed a interesting passage reading through the rules, (link)
Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life. Unlike other saving throws, this one isn't tied to any ability score. You are in the hands of fate now, aided only by spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw.
Emphasis mine.
Was going to make this post earlier but forgot. Most DMs probably wouldn't allow you to get away with a +10 to death saving throws, but hey this is RAW. Of course, it wouldn't effect natural 20 "get back up instantly", just make sure 100% you don't fail any death saving throws.
Now, it doesn't say items specifically, although you could argue (not very well I would imagine) that a magic item benefits count as "features", and if so then go Artificer and grab...
(for convenience I'm going to list items in the SRD, but you can list more)
That's a total of +8 with advantage and a luck point. Already impossible to fail a death saving throw.
Honorable mention Staff of Power, but the sacrifice of the Artificer capstone to attune to it (must take a level into... probably wizard) isn't worth it. See edit.
Well yeah items was a bit of a weird one, but we got spells
Beacon of Hope: Advantage. this has the benefit of working even if your DM rules against the nonsense that is this post. Bless: + 1d4. Ceremony: + 1d4. Dedication, yeah this one isn't happening without some serious planning. Foresight: Advantage. It uh... doesn't end when the target is unconscious is all I'm saying. Fortune's Favor: Luck point. Resistance: + 1d4. So many 1d4 effects. Least this one's a cantrip, although a pretty useless one. Wish: Reroll. Almost as bad as foresight, wait scratch that, 1/3 chance of never casting wish again... yeah not worth it lol.
Well... I couldn't actually think of a lot of spells ngl. Next is class features, which I don't have a lot I can think of at the top of my head. Paladin's give a bonus to saving throws equal to their CHA, which works as long as the paladin isn't the one making the death saving throws, so have one of those lying about next to you. What's lay on hands? Never heard of it. Artificers get a bonus equal to their attuned items... which they can have up to 6 of. So... yeah play a maxed Artificer if you want them death saving throws.
Honestly those two are all you need, Paladin aura of +5, and Artificer bonus of +3; vise-versa; or +4, +4.
and yes I know healing exist and is far more viable than any of the above but this thread is purely for fun anyways lol. Most DMs would probably stop you far before you get to +8 which is really all you need (nat 1, instant two fails no matter what; nat 2 + 8 = 10, is a success).
Correct me if I'm wrong, if I am then well I guess in that case this is just a forum about the highest bonus to saving throws, which I'm fine with I guess. Tell me if you all can think of more stuff to add onto the pile.
Edit: 6thLyranGuard is right, Artificers ignore all restrictions on Magic Items, well then.
Btw final number so far is 1d20 + 10 + 8 + 3d4 with advantage, 3 rerolls, and lucky feat. Max of a death saving throw of 50. Grab some books of breaking bonded accuracy, (Tome of Clear Thought + Tome of Leadership and Influence) and you can get up to a death saving throw of 60.
DMs might allow it, by improving your death saves you are compro I sing your character elsewhere and if the bad guy wants you dead he will just hit your unconcious body until you are.
Lol it was mostly a joke to see how high I can go, ignoring magic items I was able to go up to...
1d20 + 3d4 + 11, with Advantage, a luck point, and a reroll. With magic items which as I said are questionable if they apply, you can go up to 1d20 + 17 + 3d4, Advantage, 2 luck points, and a reroll. Probably +18 is you got a magic item from outside the SRD but I'm too lazy to read every magic item ever made official.
The failed tooltip is a Ioun Stone and will be fixed in a bit.
All of this, ofc is completely not needed lol, but still hilarious to say that you got a 50 on your death saving throw.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Or, just be a level 14 Monk. And attune to some of the same items ... take the Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection, and Luck Blade (bonus because two of those are things a Monk will want anyways!).
Diamond Soul gives proficiency in all saving throws (so at level 14 that means +5) and a reroll for 1 ki cost.
That means our level 14 Monk, on their own, is getting +5+1+1+1 AND a reroll to all of their saving throws. Add in the Paladin alone and (assuming, say, 18 CHA) we're at +12 (without ability modifiers) to our saving throws and we will only end up with a roll of one on the d20 in 1 out of 400 saves.
But wait! There's more!
Let's say our Monk started with 16 DEX, 16 WIS, 13 INT (for later), 12 CON, and whatever STR and CHA. This is possible with standard array and the right racial ASIs.
By level 14, our Monk should have nearly maxed out DEX and WIS. Using ASIs to max DEX then WIS, we get to 20 DEX and 18 WIS.
Unarmored Defense means that our AC, pre-magic items, is 19. Add in the +1s to AC from our Ring and Cloak. Now we're at 21AC, pretty good, but not great by any means at level 14.
But didn't I say there was more? Well, we still have that proficiency in all saving throws. We also have Evasion. That means we are going to be pretty hard to hit with anything that forces a save, and most of the high-damage DEX AOEs are going to have to survive our +13 DEX saves ... and if we succeed, we take no damage. And if we fail we take half damage.
But there's still more! We have bonus action Dodge at the cost of one ki. Now all those attack rolls are going to be done with disadvantage against our 21AC.
That's all at 14th level.
So, what else can we add?
First, we took that 13 in INT for a reason. We're going to take two levels in Bladesinger. In Bladesong, we gain a bonus to AC equal to INT, so we get +1 to our 21AC now (22 total). We can do this as many times as our proficiency bonus per long rest, so at 5 PB we are set for pretty much any encounter it is needed.
With our spell slots, we are only ever going to cast Absorb Elements, Shield, and Protection from Evil and Good. Just all kinds of ways to reduce damage.
Next we take Monk to 16 (so Monk16/Wizard2) and up that WIS again. Now that AC in Bladesong is 23.
Final two levels in Wizard to get that last ASI, but we are going to take Fey Touched for +1 INT, Misty Step and Bless. After that, we are at 20 DEX, 20 WIS, and 14 INT. That means 24 AC in Bladesong.
And +6 proficiency, +3 magic items bonuses to all saving throws (reslting in +14 to DEX and WIS, alongside Evasion). And we can reroll these saves for only 1 ki.
...
To summarize, we can force disadvantage on nearly every attack targeting us. We have 24 AC at just about all times it will matter. We have Shield just in case we need a little bit more on a moment's notice.
Our saving throw bonuses are +8 to STR, +14 to DEX, +10 to CON, +11 to INT, +14 to WIS, +9 to CHA, and +9 to death saving throws. And we can reroll for one ki.
We also have Bless to help us with those saves, just in case. Or Protection from Evil and Good as well.
We also have Misty Step and Absorb Elements to get us a little more defensive options.
I suppose we could make friends with a Paladin too, but at this point, is it necessary?
Yeah, if you want to NEVER die, just be a Monk.
(PS -- for fun additional synergy, go with Drunken Master and FOB as often as possible. Level 16 Monk gets +25 speed thanks to Unarmored Movement, Bladesong gives +10 more, and Drunken Master gets +10 when activating FOB and a free disengage. That means if we play custom lineage Satyr with 35 walking speed to begin with, we wind up with 80 movement speed in combat with constant disengaging to kite opponents... ...and oh yeah, advantage on all magic saving throws.)
Getting back to the OP's example, once an Artificer hits 14th level they gain Magic Item Savant, which lets them ignore all class, race, spell, and level requirements to attune to or use magic items, so there's no need to sacrifice your capstone to attune to a Staff of Power.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Most DMs would probably stop you far before you get to +8 which is really all you need (nat 1, instant two fails no matter what; nat 2 + 8 = 10, is a success).
I'd have no issue with someone wanting to max death saves, although I'd want them to have an in-character reason for being so paranoid about their own death. After all, I'm not trying to kill anyone...
(and if I were there are plenty of ways to that don't involve death saves at all)
I do wish that being struck while unconscious forced you to make a death saving throw against a DC based on the damage (similar/same to Concentration saving throws), instead of just being an automatic failure (or even two!). It would make weird optimizations like this potentially useful, instead of just being an exercise of insane math, and make the potential for instant death against a creature with multiattack or while in a damaging AOE less stacked against the player.
I do wish that being struck while unconscious forced you to make a death saving throw against a DC based on the damage (similar/same to Concentration saving throws), instead of just being an automatic failure (or even two!). It would make weird optimizations like this potentially useful, instead of just being an exercise of insane math, and make the potential for instant death against a creature with multiattack or while in a damaging AOE less stacked against the player.
I have to disagree with this, death saves existing stack things in favour of the player, especially as hostile NPCs rarely get them.
As you can fight as well with 1hp as with 50, and giving a player with low hp a low level healing is likely not to stop them going down at the next hit, the optimal tactics are usually only heal in combat if someone is unconcious. Auto fails and Crits give the option of effectively telling the players you need to heal this guy NOW, where you proposal would make these high death save characters unkillable unless they have a high damage attack .
I do wish that being struck while unconscious forced you to make a death saving throw against a DC based on the damage (similar/same to Concentration saving throws), instead of just being an automatic failure (or even two!). It would make weird optimizations like this potentially useful, instead of just being an exercise of insane math, and make the potential for instant death against a creature with multiattack or while in a damaging AOE less stacked against the player.
I think the thing that annoys me is that criticals against a downed player lead to two death fails ... and any melee attack against a downed player is a critical.
The two rules in tandem seem to stack in a way that makes it VERY punishing to the players. I tend to just say that an attack that hits them is a single fail automatically. With a multi-attacking creature or a horde, there's still a risk there, but it takes three hits to kill rather than just two.
Being knocked out by a Tiger pounce means you probably have a 50/50 chance of permanently losing your character if you’re next in the initiative order, which feels like unreasonably harsh game design. The system puts the burden on DMs to make monsters behave unrealistically so as to save player’s lives, rather than letting them be brutal but giving PCs the math to fight back. Furthermore, “you just fail, no roll” is already an anomaly in the 5E rule system, so it’s hard to justify that it NEEDED to be that way. The Concentration DC rules are just right there, and would have fit perfectly, but 5E is always a fan of using two systems when one would do... it is not elegant.
Being knocked out by a Tiger pounce means you probably have a 50/50 chance of permanently losing your character if you’re next in the initiative order, which feels like unreasonably harsh game design. The system puts the burden on DMs to make monsters behave unrealistically so as to save player’s lives, rather than letting them be brutal but giving PCs the math to fight back. Furthermore, “you just fail, no roll” is already an anomaly in the 5E rule system, so it’s hard to justify that it NEEDED to be that way. The Concentration DC rules are just right there, and would have fit perfectly, but 5E is always a fan of using two systems when one would do... it is not elegant.
Yeah, I'll never understand why death saving throws aren't simply CON saving throws. It would give martial classes a reason to boost CON, since as it is they mostly only need it for HP and their larger hit dice already help with that.
And yeah, I think the weirder thing is that AC still has effect when you are unconscious. So an orc who wants to attack a downed player can still somehow miss, and yet if they hit the hit is auto-crit? If AC were always indicative of armor worn, this might make sense (still can't explain why they'd aim for the torso when your unconscious head is right there, but whatever), but for something like a Monk's unarmored defense, it makes exactly zero sense for them to still gain a DEX and WIS bonus when they can't move at all.
I think the two things in tandem -- auto-hits on melee attacks and then forcing a death saving roll rather than autofailing -- could work out well I think. Given our orc scenario, it would change from: BEFORE: Orc attempts melee attack. Has a good chance at hitting (going with advantage) but still might miss, somehow. If the orc hits, it forces two failures. Only chance to avoid TWO failures is the off-chance the orc misses swinging its ax from five feet away... which it shouldn't do, because it's swinging an ax against an unconscious opponent. AFTER: Orc attempts melee attack. Has an automatic chance at hitting (since its target is unconscious). After the orc hits, it forces a death saving throw against the damage it did, and a failure would result in only one failure. The only chance to avoid this failure is now based on the player's roll, not the orc's. This makes more sense, thematically, to me.
Could optionally double-down on the massive damage threshold and skip Death Saving Throws entirely.
Let the player bleed out at some rate, and accumulate crit damage from overkill attacks. That would let the threat scale according to basic durability and monster offense.
If you wanted to get real whacky and just build a new system from the ground up...
Negative HP is back, baby. You die at negative HP equal to your HP total, and damage that knocks you unconscious carries over.
Take 1d6-con modifier damage per round while "dying", until "stabilized". (Make these proper Conditions, too, so that both aren't merely types of being Unconscious.
Before that damage, Death saving throws every round while "dying" to stop dying and become "stabilized" instead. DC 10+number of rounds you've been dying over 1 (DC 10 round 1, DC 11 round 2, DC 12 round 3.... etc).
Damage while "dying" or "stabilized" that equals half your HP total or more ("massive damage") prompts a Constitution saving throw, DC 10 or half the damage taken. Fail= instant death.
While "dying," can be "stabilized" with a spell like Spare the Dying or any amount of magical healing, but you don't wake up until receive healing sufficient to bring you back to 1 HP (1 point healing doesn't just pop you up to 1, has to work against your negative HP total).
While "stabilized" (not while "dying"), can spend Hit Dice during a short rest as normal. But cannot benefit from a long rest until first made conscious. (meaning, if you go into a long rest with a heavy negative HP bank, that long rest might take a few hours longer to tend you back to consciousness before you can rest for 8 hours... or might even require outside intervention to heal you back up, if your hit dice aren't enough to wake you up, because you can't recover hit dice until you take a long rest, if your hit dice weren't enough to wake you up on their own).
Can be un-stabilized by taking any more damage, which makes you "dying" again.
Practical effect of this?
At low level, folks die very quickly (Possibly even in a single round if they're a wizard with a low con!). But, it isn't a set number of rounds, so outside observers don't do the "okay we have 18 seconds to save Bob, don't waste a heal yet!" metagaming thing. And at heroic levels, heroes can chill out for minutes or possibly even hours while waiting for rescue!
Characters with high constitutions die slower than character with poor constitutions. Superhuman constitutions (22 and over) don't even naturally die at all, though they're still just as susceptible to being killed intentionally by enemies as everyone else, or to slowly dieing of starvation and disease if abandoned in a ditch with no one to help them.
The DM's decision to move on to a conscious player vs. biting the unconscious guy still has tactical consequences, but doesn't feel as unfair to the unconscious player as it currently is. Currently, if a Beast drags you off to eat you instead of fighting to the death against the rest of the party, you just plain die. With this system, the opportunity for a race to track and catch the Tiger after it drags Krog off to its den becomes something narratively exciting.
Low HP tanking is done away with entirely, which nobody likes and many DM's feel the need to craft houserules to avoid (like exhaustion levels from being knocked unconscious).
The Grave Cleric becomes more powerful (more easily brings the greviously wounded fighter back from death's door than another cleric would be), while also removing their perverse incentive to not heal their team until they're knocked unconscious in battle (see above bullet).
Narratively more rich. There's a mechanical difference between a fighter that had the wind knocked out of them in combat, vs. took a bad blow to the head, vs. sustained horrendous damage in their fight against the dragon that no normal man could possibly hope to survive.
Abilities that add additional healing during a short rest (healer's kits, Chef, song of healing, etc.) become more powerful and narratively fulfilling, since unconscious characters will often be struggling to wake up during a short rest.
I really think it would be better in any way. "It's too complicated to track negative HP" seems to be the only guiding justification for the death saving throw rules that went into the PHB system, and arguably, the systems that resulted (death saving throws and automatic death failures from damage) are counterintuitive enough that no real simplicity was accomplished.
This is absolutely hilarious, but why? All you need is a +8 to be safe from all death saves except natural 1s (which are still two fails even if bonuses put you over 10).
Edit: btw edited post, using the books of breaking bonded accuracy the max death saving throw possible is 60. Again, the +8 from (non-tome) magic items might not be entirely RAW, but if your set on not going RAW then find some way of getting proficiency in Death Saving Throws for 66 (best way is if your campaign is a level 34 and you got a 20 artificer 14 monk. Def. not RAW though lol).
I - uhm - So, little bit of background info. I'm a DM of 7 players(keep in mind, this is my first time DMing, and they're all really good at playing D&D, but they're also chaotic as heck) and they're all level 5 but super overpowered. So I was skimming the Internet and saw this then thought 'Hm, I'll try it out'. Here's how you get a +23 in Intelligence Saves, a +14 in Strength and Charisma, a +17 in Dexterity and Wisdom, and finally, a +19 in Constitution. And this is all in saves. First off, max out DEX, INT, and WIS. Take a 12 in CON, a 15 in CHA, and a 14 in STR. Then get to level 20 in Artificer. Take Battle Smith. Take Githzerai as your race. Artificer Infusions should be(to help AC and stuff) Homunculus Servant, Enhanced Defense, Enhanced Arcane Focus, Enhanced Arcane Weapon, Resistant Armor, Radiant Weapon, Repeating Shot, Repulsion Shield, Returning Weapon, Arcane Propulsion Armor, Spell-Refueling Ring, and Boots of the Winding Path. Some good proficiencies could be Sleight of Hand, Perception, and then Alchemist's Supplies. Feats are kind of pointless with this because if you wanna max out DEX, INT, and WIS, Ability Score Improvements are the best, but you can take feats if you want(though this might not work if you do).You don't have to, but I took the Hermit Background(just for lore reasons I guess, plus proficiencies and languages and stuff). Now for the attunement items. First off, regular items, actually. Studded Leather +3 and Shield +3. I got a Quarterstaff +3 as well just for weapons, but ya know... Anywho, now the attunement items. Cloak of Displacement, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, Luck Blade(any weapon, but I chose Longsword), Staff of Power and Robe of Stars(so, yes, those all work). Your highest skill modifier will most likely be a +11, but the SAVING THROWS. Mhm - a PLUS TWENTY-THREE IN INTELLIGENCE. My players are going to HATE ME. And the thing is, this NPC I made, is Level 20 and has only 98 hit points, which is pretty low considering my Tabaxi Druid has like 80(her Tiefling Druid friend has 82) and our Fighter-Wizard(6/3 I think?) multi-class has 92 or something.
Will my players hate me, try and hunt down my two-year-old baby Goblin child and her mother figures, and then kill them? Absolutely.
Am I still going to do this? Probably. Maybe. Who knows - I did tell them to be afraid, sooo- whoops.
How exactly are you getting your saving throws that high? Those magic items only give you a +6 total bonus, which combined with a +6 proficiency bonus at 20th level and a +5 ability bonus would give you an Intelligence save of +17. You seem to be mistaking your bonuses to AC as being bonuses to saves or something.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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I noticed a interesting passage reading through the rules, (link)
Emphasis mine.
Was going to make this post earlier but forgot. Most DMs probably wouldn't allow you to get away with a +10 to death saving throws, but hey this is RAW. Of course, it wouldn't effect natural 20 "get back up instantly", just make sure 100% you don't fail any death saving throws.
Now, it doesn't say items specifically, although you could argue (not very well I would imagine) that a magic item benefits count as "features", and if so then go Artificer and grab...
(for convenience I'm going to list items in the SRD, but you can list more)
Attune to: Ring of Protection (+1), Cloak of Protection (+1), Luck Blade (+1 & Reroll stacks with advantage), Robe of Stars (+1), Ioun Stone (+1, the good luck one), Staff of Power (+2).
Then get a ally to place a Rod of Alertness for another +1 as well as lighting a Candle of Invocation (or use a holy avenger either works) for advantage.
That's a total of +8 with advantage and a luck point. Already impossible to fail a death saving throw.
Honorable mention Staff of Power, but the sacrifice of the Artificer capstone to attune to it (must take a level into... probably wizard) isn't worth it.See edit.Well yeah items was a bit of a weird one, but we got spells
Bless: + 1d4.
Ceremony: + 1d4. Dedication, yeah this one isn't happening without some serious planning.
Foresight: Advantage. It uh... doesn't end when the target is unconscious is all I'm saying.
Fortune's Favor: Luck point.
Resistance: + 1d4. So many 1d4 effects. Least this one's a cantrip, although a pretty useless one.
Wish: Reroll. Almost as bad as foresight, wait scratch that, 1/3 chance of never casting wish again... yeah not worth it lol.
Well... I couldn't actually think of a lot of spells ngl. Next is class features, which I don't have a lot I can think of at the top of my head. Paladin's give a bonus to saving throws equal to their CHA, which works as long as the paladin isn't the one making the death saving throws, so have one of those lying about next to you. What's lay on hands? Never heard of it. Artificers get a bonus equal to their attuned items... which they can have up to 6 of. So... yeah play a maxed Artificer if you want them death saving throws.
Honestly those two are all you need, Paladin aura of +5, and Artificer bonus of +3; vise-versa; or +4, +4.
and yes I know healing exist and is far more viable than any of the above but this thread is purely for fun anyways lol. Most DMs would probably stop you far before you get to +8 which is really all you need (nat 1, instant two fails no matter what; nat 2 + 8 = 10, is a success).
Correct me if I'm wrong, if I am then well I guess in that case this is just a forum about the highest bonus to saving throws, which I'm fine with I guess. Tell me if you all can think of more stuff to add onto the pile.
Edit: 6thLyranGuard is right, Artificers ignore all restrictions on Magic Items, well then.
Btw final number so far is 1d20 + 10 + 8 + 3d4 with advantage, 3 rerolls, and lucky feat. Max of a death saving throw of 50. Grab some books of breaking bonded accuracy, (Tome of Clear Thought + Tome of Leadership and Influence) and you can get up to a death saving throw of 60.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
DMs might allow it, by improving your death saves you are compro I sing your character elsewhere and if the bad guy wants you dead he will just hit your unconcious body until you are.
Lol it was mostly a joke to see how high I can go, ignoring magic items I was able to go up to...
1d20 + 3d4 + 11, with Advantage, a luck point, and a reroll. With magic items which as I said are questionable if they apply, you can go up to 1d20 + 17 + 3d4, Advantage, 2 luck points, and a reroll. Probably +18 is you got a magic item from outside the SRD but I'm too lazy to read every magic item ever made official.
The failed tooltip is a Ioun Stone and will be fixed in a bit.
All of this, ofc is completely not needed lol, but still hilarious to say that you got a 50 on your death saving throw.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Or, just be a level 14 Monk. And attune to some of the same items ... take the Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection, and Luck Blade (bonus because two of those are things a Monk will want anyways!).
Diamond Soul gives proficiency in all saving throws (so at level 14 that means +5) and a reroll for 1 ki cost.
That means our level 14 Monk, on their own, is getting +5+1+1+1 AND a reroll to all of their saving throws. Add in the Paladin alone and (assuming, say, 18 CHA) we're at +12 (without ability modifiers) to our saving throws and we will only end up with a roll of one on the d20 in 1 out of 400 saves.
But wait! There's more!
Let's say our Monk started with 16 DEX, 16 WIS, 13 INT (for later), 12 CON, and whatever STR and CHA. This is possible with standard array and the right racial ASIs.
By level 14, our Monk should have nearly maxed out DEX and WIS. Using ASIs to max DEX then WIS, we get to 20 DEX and 18 WIS.
Unarmored Defense means that our AC, pre-magic items, is 19. Add in the +1s to AC from our Ring and Cloak. Now we're at 21AC, pretty good, but not great by any means at level 14.
But didn't I say there was more? Well, we still have that proficiency in all saving throws. We also have Evasion. That means we are going to be pretty hard to hit with anything that forces a save, and most of the high-damage DEX AOEs are going to have to survive our +13 DEX saves ... and if we succeed, we take no damage. And if we fail we take half damage.
But there's still more! We have bonus action Dodge at the cost of one ki. Now all those attack rolls are going to be done with disadvantage against our 21AC.
That's all at 14th level.
So, what else can we add?
First, we took that 13 in INT for a reason. We're going to take two levels in Bladesinger. In Bladesong, we gain a bonus to AC equal to INT, so we get +1 to our 21AC now (22 total). We can do this as many times as our proficiency bonus per long rest, so at 5 PB we are set for pretty much any encounter it is needed.
With our spell slots, we are only ever going to cast Absorb Elements, Shield, and Protection from Evil and Good. Just all kinds of ways to reduce damage.
Next we take Monk to 16 (so Monk16/Wizard2) and up that WIS again. Now that AC in Bladesong is 23.
Final two levels in Wizard to get that last ASI, but we are going to take Fey Touched for +1 INT, Misty Step and Bless. After that, we are at 20 DEX, 20 WIS, and 14 INT. That means 24 AC in Bladesong.
And +6 proficiency, +3 magic items bonuses to all saving throws (reslting in +14 to DEX and WIS, alongside Evasion). And we can reroll these saves for only 1 ki.
...
To summarize, we can force disadvantage on nearly every attack targeting us. We have 24 AC at just about all times it will matter. We have Shield just in case we need a little bit more on a moment's notice.
Our saving throw bonuses are +8 to STR, +14 to DEX, +10 to CON, +11 to INT, +14 to WIS, +9 to CHA, and +9 to death saving throws. And we can reroll for one ki.
We also have Bless to help us with those saves, just in case. Or Protection from Evil and Good as well.
We also have Misty Step and Absorb Elements to get us a little more defensive options.
I suppose we could make friends with a Paladin too, but at this point, is it necessary?
Yeah, if you want to NEVER die, just be a Monk.
(PS -- for fun additional synergy, go with Drunken Master and FOB as often as possible. Level 16 Monk gets +25 speed thanks to Unarmored Movement, Bladesong gives +10 more, and Drunken Master gets +10 when activating FOB and a free disengage. That means if we play custom lineage Satyr with 35 walking speed to begin with, we wind up with 80 movement speed in combat with constant disengaging to kite opponents...
...and oh yeah, advantage on all magic saving throws.)
Or, you can get a [MagicItem[Periapt of Wound Closure[/MagicItem](uncommon) to automatically stabilize at the start of your turn.
Hahahaha ... somebody brought a gun to a knife fight.
Getting back to the OP's example, once an Artificer hits 14th level they gain Magic Item Savant, which lets them ignore all class, race, spell, and level requirements to attune to or use magic items, so there's no need to sacrifice your capstone to attune to a Staff of Power.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'd have no issue with someone wanting to max death saves, although I'd want them to have an in-character reason for being so paranoid about their own death. After all, I'm not trying to kill anyone...
(and if I were there are plenty of ways to that don't involve death saves at all)
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I do wish that being struck while unconscious forced you to make a death saving throw against a DC based on the damage (similar/same to Concentration saving throws), instead of just being an automatic failure (or even two!). It would make weird optimizations like this potentially useful, instead of just being an exercise of insane math, and make the potential for instant death against a creature with multiattack or while in a damaging AOE less stacked against the player.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I have to disagree with this, death saves existing stack things in favour of the player, especially as hostile NPCs rarely get them.
As you can fight as well with 1hp as with 50, and giving a player with low hp a low level healing is likely not to stop them going down at the next hit, the optimal tactics are usually only heal in combat if someone is unconcious. Auto fails and Crits give the option of effectively telling the players you need to heal this guy NOW, where you proposal would make these high death save characters unkillable unless they have a high damage attack .
I think the thing that annoys me is that criticals against a downed player lead to two death fails ... and any melee attack against a downed player is a critical.
The two rules in tandem seem to stack in a way that makes it VERY punishing to the players. I tend to just say that an attack that hits them is a single fail automatically. With a multi-attacking creature or a horde, there's still a risk there, but it takes three hits to kill rather than just two.
Being knocked out by a Tiger pounce means you probably have a 50/50 chance of permanently losing your character if you’re next in the initiative order, which feels like unreasonably harsh game design. The system puts the burden on DMs to make monsters behave unrealistically so as to save player’s lives, rather than letting them be brutal but giving PCs the math to fight back. Furthermore, “you just fail, no roll” is already an anomaly in the 5E rule system, so it’s hard to justify that it NEEDED to be that way. The Concentration DC rules are just right there, and would have fit perfectly, but 5E is always a fan of using two systems when one would do... it is not elegant.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yeah, I'll never understand why death saving throws aren't simply CON saving throws. It would give martial classes a reason to boost CON, since as it is they mostly only need it for HP and their larger hit dice already help with that.
And yeah, I think the weirder thing is that AC still has effect when you are unconscious. So an orc who wants to attack a downed player can still somehow miss, and yet if they hit the hit is auto-crit? If AC were always indicative of armor worn, this might make sense (still can't explain why they'd aim for the torso when your unconscious head is right there, but whatever), but for something like a Monk's unarmored defense, it makes exactly zero sense for them to still gain a DEX and WIS bonus when they can't move at all.
I think the two things in tandem -- auto-hits on melee attacks and then forcing a death saving roll rather than autofailing -- could work out well I think. Given our orc scenario, it would change from:
BEFORE: Orc attempts melee attack. Has a good chance at hitting (going with advantage) but still might miss, somehow. If the orc hits, it forces two failures. Only chance to avoid TWO failures is the off-chance the orc misses swinging its ax from five feet away... which it shouldn't do, because it's swinging an ax against an unconscious opponent.
AFTER: Orc attempts melee attack. Has an automatic chance at hitting (since its target is unconscious). After the orc hits, it forces a death saving throw against the damage it did, and a failure would result in only one failure. The only chance to avoid this failure is now based on the player's roll, not the orc's. This makes more sense, thematically, to me.
Against half the damage it did, minimum 10. Other than that, yes that would be my preferred houserule.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Could optionally double-down on the massive damage threshold and skip Death Saving Throws entirely.
Let the player bleed out at some rate, and accumulate crit damage from overkill attacks. That would let the threat scale according to basic durability and monster offense.
If you wanted to get real whacky and just build a new system from the ground up...
Practical effect of this?
I really think it would be better in any way. "It's too complicated to track negative HP" seems to be the only guiding justification for the death saving throw rules that went into the PHB system, and arguably, the systems that resulted (death saving throws and automatic death failures from damage) are counterintuitive enough that no real simplicity was accomplished.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
This is absolutely hilarious, but why? All you need is a +8 to be safe from all death saves except natural 1s (which are still two fails even if bonuses put you over 10).
That's why
Edit: btw edited post, using the books of breaking bonded accuracy the max death saving throw possible is 60. Again, the +8 from (non-tome) magic items might not be entirely RAW, but if your set on not going RAW then find some way of getting proficiency in Death Saving Throws for 66 (best way is if your campaign is a level 34 and you got a 20 artificer 14 monk. Def. not RAW though lol).
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I - uhm - So, little bit of background info. I'm a DM of 7 players(keep in mind, this is my first time DMing, and they're all really good at playing D&D, but they're also chaotic as heck) and they're all level 5 but super overpowered. So I was skimming the Internet and saw this then thought 'Hm, I'll try it out'. Here's how you get a +23 in Intelligence Saves, a +14 in Strength and Charisma, a +17 in Dexterity and Wisdom, and finally, a +19 in Constitution. And this is all in saves. First off, max out DEX, INT, and WIS. Take a 12 in CON, a 15 in CHA, and a 14 in STR. Then get to level 20 in Artificer. Take Battle Smith. Take Githzerai as your race. Artificer Infusions should be(to help AC and stuff) Homunculus Servant, Enhanced Defense, Enhanced Arcane Focus, Enhanced Arcane Weapon, Resistant Armor, Radiant Weapon, Repeating Shot, Repulsion Shield, Returning Weapon, Arcane Propulsion Armor, Spell-Refueling Ring, and Boots of the Winding Path. Some good proficiencies could be Sleight of Hand, Perception, and then Alchemist's Supplies. Feats are kind of pointless with this because if you wanna max out DEX, INT, and WIS, Ability Score Improvements are the best, but you can take feats if you want(though this might not work if you do).You don't have to, but I took the Hermit Background(just for lore reasons I guess, plus proficiencies and languages and stuff). Now for the attunement items. First off, regular items, actually. Studded Leather +3 and Shield +3. I got a Quarterstaff +3 as well just for weapons, but ya know... Anywho, now the attunement items. Cloak of Displacement, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, Luck Blade(any weapon, but I chose Longsword), Staff of Power and Robe of Stars(so, yes, those all work). Your highest skill modifier will most likely be a +11, but the SAVING THROWS. Mhm - a PLUS TWENTY-THREE IN INTELLIGENCE. My players are going to HATE ME. And the thing is, this NPC I made, is Level 20 and has only 98 hit points, which is pretty low considering my Tabaxi Druid has like 80(her Tiefling Druid friend has 82) and our Fighter-Wizard(6/3 I think?) multi-class has 92 or something.
Will my players hate me, try and hunt down my two-year-old baby Goblin child and her mother figures, and then kill them? Absolutely.
Am I still going to do this? Probably. Maybe. Who knows - I did tell them to be afraid, sooo- whoops.
How exactly are you getting your saving throws that high? Those magic items only give you a +6 total bonus, which combined with a +6 proficiency bonus at 20th level and a +5 ability bonus would give you an Intelligence save of +17. You seem to be mistaking your bonuses to AC as being bonuses to saves or something.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.