So I was making a character sheet the other day, and I had an idea of what I've named a Cleraladin. Its Paladin/Cleric. Now, look, I know this might sound very basic, but it can be very useful. As most of us know, Divine Intervention is one of the most op and broken abilities in the game. The idea is, go 3 levels in Paladin, and the rest in Cleric. You get extra spell slots from the Paladin to use on Cleric spells, (and Divine Smite), such as Cure Wounds. Clerics, alone, are more of a spellcaster than a fighter, but with Paladin, you gain proficiency in simple and martial weapons. In combat, this multiclass can be incredibly op. Although, if you're looking to make a unique character, then this is not for you. If you are, I suggest Cleric/Warlock.
Clerics, alone, are more of a spellcaster than a fighter, but with Paladin, you gain proficiency in simple and martial weapons. In combat, this multiclass can be incredibly op.
How is a Cleric with proficiency in simple and martial weapons potentially OP in combat? Death, War and Twilight Domain Clerics already get proficiency with martial weapons.
You could improve this multiclass by limiting paladin to 2. But, in either case this multiclass is real MAD. You want high WIS for sure if you're primarily a cleric. But if you're going to use paladin for it's melee capability, you need high str. Of course, you want good con, but the real issue is the required 13 CHA.
Essentially, due to the lack of extra attack, you're only really getting proficiency in armor and weapons, and a smite. Is your melee damage going to be viable with just one attack? You may want to look into arcana cleric.
But unless you really plan around shortcomings with items and class/race choices, I'd rate this a 3/5
If divine soul sorcerer is an option you could go that route.
pros:. more cantrips since sorcerer starts with 4 instead of 3. sorcerer and cleric spell list availability. Including shield and absorb elements. Uses same casting attribute to lessen burden of needing wisdom. Potential access to metamagics. could turn spell points into slots to smite if needed.
cons: It’s more limited with spells known vs prepared. it has slightly less hit point progression. No additional Chanel divinity versatility
subclass choice between sorcerer and cleric both give level 1 options that may both be beneficial depending on choice made and build direction.
There is no synergy between paladin and cleric, oddly enough. And worse, Channel Divinity doesn't stack between the two classes i.e. if paladin has one CD per short rest and your cleric has one CD per short rest, you only have one CD in total. They don't stack between the two classes. So until you reach 6th level in cleric, you won't get a second CD.
Paladins are already a MAD class needing multiple ability scores to be good at what they do. Adding in Cleric just means we have added needing a minimum of 13 WIS also! Whereas if you do what Bobbybaker says in the above post, going Divine Soul Sorcerer, you get to use CHA for both paladin and sorcerer for your spells, while still having the cleric spell list.
From PHB rules on multiclassing:
"Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes."
You do not get extra spell slots from the Paladin. You lose spell slots because it’s a half caster. These two do not synergize or compliment each other well. It’s not worth losing spell slot and Cleric level progression.
(I got this from XP to Level 3) So, I organize each class into 4 categories. Offense, Support, Spellcaster, and Utility (reserved for Artificer). Offense includes Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, and Monk, Support includes Bard, Druid, Paladin, and Cleric, spellcaster includes Wizard, (Obviously), Sorcerer, the new Mystic class, and Warlock. You see, pop culture dictates that Clerics are meant to be medics, and I believe that is what Wizards of The Coast intended, but that's not how it turned out entirely. If you are playing a Cleric who is the medic for the party, Paladin has the "Lay On Hands" ability, but can only be used during long rests. That could be really useful for Clerics. You can also use Divine smite, and Divine strike as bonus actions to make your weapon a tank destroyer. Although this would only work with the life domain. I think that this multiclass can make Clerics even stronger than they already are
You do not get extra spell slots from the Paladin. You lose spell slots because it’s a half caster. These two do not synergize or compliment each other well. It’s not worth losing spell slot and Cleric level progression.
(I got this from XP to Level 3) So, I organize each class into 4 categories. Offense, Support, Spellcaster, and Utility (reserved for Artificer). Offense includes Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, and Monk, Support includes Bard, Druid, Paladin, and Cleric, spellcaster includes Wizard, (Obviously), Sorcerer, the new Mystic class, and Warlock. You see, pop culture dictates that Clerics are meant to be medics, and I believe that is what Wizards of The Coast intended, but that's not how it turned out entirely. If you are playing a Cleric who is the medic for the party, Paladin has the "Lay On Hands" ability, but can only be used during long rests. That could be really useful for Clerics. You can also use Divine smite, and Divine strike as bonus actions to make your weapon a tank destroyer. Although this would only work with the life domain. I think that this multiclass can make Clerics even stronger than they already are
Sorry, but not so sure those categories or classifications make much sense. A monk is offense, but a wizard isn't????? A fighter, barbarian or rogue is offense, but a paladin isn't? I really need to introduce you to cgarciao and his paladin dpr freaks! Give him a heavy hitting 2h, GWM, smites and watch the enemies drop!
I tend to look at DnD for "roles" in the party, which I guess is close to your categories, but I organize it differently. And there is always going to be some overlap. It's a familiar MMO concept for roles, but I think it works well for DnD, since they have a lot in common.
Tanks Damage dealers Healers/support
How you build your fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, druid, etc, can determine which role is best suited for you. A sword and board fighter or paladin with tough feat makes for a better tank than one specializing with 2h weapon and GWM. That second one is built more for damage dealing. The sword and board fighter or paladin can still do good damage, but not as much as their 2h weapon dealing counterpart. One druid may take a subclass and spec to be a party tank, while another decides to be more of a healer. The playstyles of different subclasses can vary wildly, within a particular class.
What class and subclass I take, has largely to do with what the party needs.
(I got this from XP to Level 3) So, I organize each class into 4 categories. Offense, Support, Spellcaster, and Utility (reserved for Artificer). Offense includes Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, and Monk, Support includes Bard, Druid, Paladin, and Cleric, spellcaster includes Wizard, (Obviously), Sorcerer, the new Mystic class, and Warlock. You see, pop culture dictates that Clerics are meant to be medics, and I believe that is what Wizards of The Coast intended, but that's not how it turned out entirely. If you are playing a Cleric who is the medic for the party, Paladin has the "Lay On Hands" ability, but can only be used during long rests. That could be really useful for Clerics. You can also use Divine smite, and Divine strike as bonus actions to make your weapon a tank destroyer. Although this would only work with the life domain. I think that this multiclass can make Clerics even stronger than they already are
They really aren’t that good a resource. I would suggest watching either dungeon dudes (more basic but a lot of fun), or d4 optimiser (dryer but far more detailed).
Clerics are not ‘medics’, they can easily be the biggest damage dealers in the party. Using a massive area effect spell such as Dawn or a smaller Moonbeam doing damage without an action on multiple targets and or battlefield control, a bonus action spiritual weapon attack and a cantrip with blessed attacks.
In the first round of a fight last night my cleric dropped dawn on a group of 5 ogres and 3 giants. The giant leader and 2 ogres made the save so took half damage, the rest took full, and I rolled 31 damage, so thats 5 targets taking 31, and 3 taking 15 for a total of 200 damage, in the very first round of combat. That doesn’t include my bonus action.
So much of what you have written is incorrect. A paladin can use their lay on hands ability at any time, not just during a long rest. There is no new mystic class.
5e did away with roles entirely. Cleric is a very versatile class and can fill many niches, although it's true that their spell list leans towards support.
At any rate, as mentioned above Divine Sorcadin is superior to a cleric MC in just about every way. Cleric just doesn't offer paladin a whole lot and splitting your casting stats is a pretty big drawback.
Considering the stat juggling and how that complicates spell selection plus many potential trap options here, I wouldn't call a Paladin/Cleric basic or good. Take a look at some MCs with true synergy like the Sorcadin or Paladin with 1 level of Hexbalde warlock and you'll have a better idea of what to look for in a good MC build. Multiclassing is a complicated thing and you really need to get to know the mechanics of the classes well before you can figure out how to get the most from it. It's very easy to make an MC build that is objectively worse than any given full class build.
Divine intervention is only broken in two cases. The first is if you take cleric all the way to 20, making it a reliable action to use in combat. The other is if your DM doesn't get mad at you for using it as a daily prayer.
A paladin can use their lay on hands ability at any time, not just during a long rest.
I don't mean to sound like a rules lawyer here, you can play how you want, but first of all, I meant a short rest, and second of all, the Player's Handbook would disagree.
A paladin can use their lay on hands ability at any time, not just during a long rest.
I don't mean to sound like a rules lawyer here, you can play how you want, but first of all, I meant a short rest, and second of all, the Player's Handbook would disagree.
What are you talking about? A paladin can use Lay on Hands anytime they have an action to do it with. In combat, out of combat, during a short rest, during a long rest...it doesn't matter, you can use Lay on Hands as long as you have a free hand.
"Lay on Hands
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level × 5.
As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in your pool.
Alternatively, you can expend 5 hit points from your pool of healing to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it. You can cure multiple diseases and neutralize multiple poisons with a single use of Lay on Hands, expending hit points separately for each one.
This feature has no effect on undead and constructs."
A paladin can use their lay on hands ability at any time, not just during a long rest.
I don't mean to sound like a rules lawyer here, you can play how you want, but first of all, I meant a short rest, and second of all, the Player's Handbook would disagree.
You aren’t sounding like a rules lawyer because you aren’t getting the rules correct… I have pasted what the players handbook says about Lay on Hands below. It doesn’t say anywhere in it that the Paladin can only use their ability during a rest, long or short. A paladin gets to use lay on hands at any time they want to, to restore a maximum of 5HP per paladin level. The ability refreshes after a long rest.
Maybe you can quote me the part where the players handbook says a paladin can only use lay on hands during a rest (page numbers please).
As for clerics, first you literally called them medics in your post. Now you have started to call them support ‘because they have support type spells on their list’. Guess what - all casters have some support type spells on their list, even paladins. Prestidigitation, disguise self, fly, shape earth, pass without trace, goodberry, gust, druidcraft, dispel magic, remove curse, invisibility. The list is as long as my arm.
Lay on Hands
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level × 5.
As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in your pool.
Alternatively, you can expend 5 hit points from your pool of healing to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it. You can cure multiple diseases and neutralize multiple poisons with a single use of Lay on Hands, expending hit points separately for each one.
This feature has no effect on undead and constructs.
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So I was making a character sheet the other day, and I had an idea of what I've named a Cleraladin. Its Paladin/Cleric. Now, look, I know this might sound very basic, but it can be very useful. As most of us know, Divine Intervention is one of the most op and broken abilities in the game. The idea is, go 3 levels in Paladin, and the rest in Cleric. You get extra spell slots from the Paladin to use on Cleric spells, (and Divine Smite), such as Cure Wounds. Clerics, alone, are more of a spellcaster than a fighter, but with Paladin, you gain proficiency in simple and martial weapons. In combat, this multiclass can be incredibly op. Although, if you're looking to make a unique character, then this is not for you. If you are, I suggest Cleric/Warlock.
How is a Cleric with proficiency in simple and martial weapons potentially OP in combat? Death, War and Twilight Domain Clerics already get proficiency with martial weapons.
A good book and a cup of tea.
Homebrew| Bard: College of Composition
Feedback Appreciated!
You could improve this multiclass by limiting paladin to 2. But, in either case this multiclass is real MAD. You want high WIS for sure if you're primarily a cleric. But if you're going to use paladin for it's melee capability, you need high str. Of course, you want good con, but the real issue is the required 13 CHA.
Essentially, due to the lack of extra attack, you're only really getting proficiency in armor and weapons, and a smite. Is your melee damage going to be viable with just one attack? You may want to look into arcana cleric.
But unless you really plan around shortcomings with items and class/race choices, I'd rate this a 3/5
If divine soul sorcerer is an option you could go that route.
pros:.
more cantrips since sorcerer starts with 4 instead of 3.
sorcerer and cleric spell list availability. Including shield and absorb elements.
Uses same casting attribute to lessen burden of needing wisdom.
Potential access to metamagics.
could turn spell points into slots to smite if needed.
cons:
It’s more limited with spells known vs prepared.
it has slightly less hit point progression.
No additional Chanel divinity versatility
subclass choice between sorcerer and cleric both give level 1 options that may both be beneficial depending on choice made and build direction.
There is no synergy between paladin and cleric, oddly enough. And worse, Channel Divinity doesn't stack between the two classes i.e. if paladin has one CD per short rest and your cleric has one CD per short rest, you only have one CD in total. They don't stack between the two classes. So until you reach 6th level in cleric, you won't get a second CD.
Paladins are already a MAD class needing multiple ability scores to be good at what they do. Adding in Cleric just means we have added needing a minimum of 13 WIS also! Whereas if you do what Bobbybaker says in the above post, going Divine Soul Sorcerer, you get to use CHA for both paladin and sorcerer for your spells, while still having the cleric spell list.
From PHB rules on multiclassing:
"Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes."
You do not get extra spell slots from the Paladin. You lose spell slots because it’s a half caster. These two do not synergize or compliment each other well. It’s not worth losing spell slot and Cleric level progression.
(I got this from XP to Level 3) So, I organize each class into 4 categories. Offense, Support, Spellcaster, and Utility (reserved for Artificer). Offense includes Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, and Monk, Support includes Bard, Druid, Paladin, and Cleric, spellcaster includes Wizard, (Obviously), Sorcerer, the new Mystic class, and Warlock. You see, pop culture dictates that Clerics are meant to be medics, and I believe that is what Wizards of The Coast intended, but that's not how it turned out entirely. If you are playing a Cleric who is the medic for the party, Paladin has the "Lay On Hands" ability, but can only be used during long rests. That could be really useful for Clerics. You can also use Divine smite, and Divine strike as bonus actions to make your weapon a tank destroyer. Although this would only work with the life domain. I think that this multiclass can make Clerics even stronger than they already are
oh
Sorry, but not so sure those categories or classifications make much sense. A monk is offense, but a wizard isn't????? A fighter, barbarian or rogue is offense, but a paladin isn't? I really need to introduce you to cgarciao and his paladin dpr freaks! Give him a heavy hitting 2h, GWM, smites and watch the enemies drop!
I tend to look at DnD for "roles" in the party, which I guess is close to your categories, but I organize it differently. And there is always going to be some overlap. It's a familiar MMO concept for roles, but I think it works well for DnD, since they have a lot in common.
Tanks
Damage dealers
Healers/support
How you build your fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, druid, etc, can determine which role is best suited for you. A sword and board fighter or paladin with tough feat makes for a better tank than one specializing with 2h weapon and GWM. That second one is built more for damage dealing. The sword and board fighter or paladin can still do good damage, but not as much as their 2h weapon dealing counterpart. One druid may take a subclass and spec to be a party tank, while another decides to be more of a healer. The playstyles of different subclasses can vary wildly, within a particular class.
What class and subclass I take, has largely to do with what the party needs.
They really aren’t that good a resource. I would suggest watching either dungeon dudes (more basic but a lot of fun), or d4 optimiser (dryer but far more detailed).
Clerics are not ‘medics’, they can easily be the biggest damage dealers in the party. Using a massive area effect spell such as Dawn or a smaller Moonbeam doing damage without an action on multiple targets and or battlefield control, a bonus action spiritual weapon attack and a cantrip with blessed attacks.
In the first round of a fight last night my cleric dropped dawn on a group of 5 ogres and 3 giants. The giant leader and 2 ogres made the save so took half damage, the rest took full, and I rolled 31 damage, so thats 5 targets taking 31, and 3 taking 15 for a total of 200 damage, in the very first round of combat. That doesn’t include my bonus action.
So much of what you have written is incorrect. A paladin can use their lay on hands ability at any time, not just during a long rest. There is no new mystic class.
They can be both, but they are still widely considered a support class.
No, they really aren't. Clerics are only considered as healbots by people who don't know anything about the class.
5e did away with roles entirely. Cleric is a very versatile class and can fill many niches, although it's true that their spell list leans towards support.
At any rate, as mentioned above Divine Sorcadin is superior to a cleric MC in just about every way. Cleric just doesn't offer paladin a whole lot and splitting your casting stats is a pretty big drawback.
Considering the stat juggling and how that complicates spell selection plus many potential trap options here, I wouldn't call a Paladin/Cleric basic or good. Take a look at some MCs with true synergy like the Sorcadin or Paladin with 1 level of Hexbalde warlock and you'll have a better idea of what to look for in a good MC build. Multiclassing is a complicated thing and you really need to get to know the mechanics of the classes well before you can figure out how to get the most from it. It's very easy to make an MC build that is objectively worse than any given full class build.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Divine intervention is only broken in two cases. The first is if you take cleric all the way to 20, making it a reliable action to use in combat. The other is if your DM doesn't get mad at you for using it as a daily prayer.
That doesn't mean that a Cleric's spell list doesn't lean towards the support side.
I don't mean to sound like a rules lawyer here, you can play how you want, but first of all, I meant a short rest, and second of all, the Player's Handbook would disagree.
What are you talking about? A paladin can use Lay on Hands anytime they have an action to do it with. In combat, out of combat, during a short rest, during a long rest...it doesn't matter, you can use Lay on Hands as long as you have a free hand.
"Lay on Hands
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level × 5.
As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in your pool.
Alternatively, you can expend 5 hit points from your pool of healing to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it. You can cure multiple diseases and neutralize multiple poisons with a single use of Lay on Hands, expending hit points separately for each one.
This feature has no effect on undead and constructs."
You aren’t sounding like a rules lawyer because you aren’t getting the rules correct… I have pasted what the players handbook says about Lay on Hands below. It doesn’t say anywhere in it that the Paladin can only use their ability during a rest, long or short. A paladin gets to use lay on hands at any time they want to, to restore a maximum of 5HP per paladin level. The ability refreshes after a long rest.
Maybe you can quote me the part where the players handbook says a paladin can only use lay on hands during a rest (page numbers please).
As for clerics, first you literally called them medics in your post. Now you have started to call them support ‘because they have support type spells on their list’. Guess what - all casters have some support type spells on their list, even paladins. Prestidigitation, disguise self, fly, shape earth, pass without trace, goodberry, gust, druidcraft, dispel magic, remove curse, invisibility. The list is as long as my arm.
Lay on Hands
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level × 5.
As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in your pool.
Alternatively, you can expend 5 hit points from your pool of healing to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it. You can cure multiple diseases and neutralize multiple poisons with a single use of Lay on Hands, expending hit points separately for each one.
This feature has no effect on undead and constructs.