I'm building a cleric at level 3. I really wanted a heavy armor melee fighting cleric. While I know that clerics arent optimal for melee DPS, I thought it would be a cool esthetic. I think the spiritual weapon spell is silly and want to avoid using it so I thought it would be fun to build a cleric with polearm mastery, take warcaster at 4 and be able to double attack with spirit shroud up and opportunity attack hold person when they enter my reach.
Unfortunately, it seems the two god-tier spells for clerics are spirit guardians and spiritual weapon. I hate these spells. I dont want to use them. But I also dont want to be at a massive disadvantage for it.
Spirit guardians does 3d8 damage to anyone within 15 feet that fails a save. Spirit shroud does 1d8 per attack.
Both require concentration but spirit guardians takes the cake in duration as well.
1 - It seems like Spirit Guardians is just plain "better" from a numbers persective. Since they are both level 3 cleric spells, is there ever a situation in which spirit shroud is optimal? 2 - Does anyone have any build tips for making a melee cleric who fights with a polearm? Should I dip fighter?
I'm building a cleric at level 3. I really wanted a heavy armor melee fighting cleric. While I know that clerics arent optimal for melee DPS, I thought it would be a cool esthetic. I think the spiritual weapon spell is silly and want to avoid using it so I thought it would be fun to build a cleric with polearm mastery, take warcaster at 4 and be able to double attack with spirit shroud up and opportunity attack hold person when they enter my reach.
Unfortunately, it seems the two god-tier spells for clerics are spirit guardians and spiritual weapon. I hate these spells. I dont want to use them. But I also dont want to be at a massive disadvantage for it.
Spirit guardians does 3d8 damage to anyone within 15 feet that fails a save. Spirit shroud does 1d8 per attack.
Both require concentration but spirit guardians takes the cake in duration as well.
1 - It seems like Spirit Guardians is just plain "better" from a numbers persective. Since they are both level 3 cleric spells, is there ever a situation in which spirit shroud is optimal? 2 - Does anyone have any build tips for making a melee cleric who fights with a polearm? Should I dip fighter?
Spirit Guardians IS better, because you're talking about 3d8 AOE damage (half if they save) vs 1d8 per single target you hit with an attack. Also, if you pick up Polearm Master you have to wait 4 more levels before you can pick up Warcaster.
If you want to go for flavor and concept, you do you. Your build would still be okay and reasonably effective as a character. But a Cleric with Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + main action of choice each turn will be kicking your a** in terms of effectiveness. I'm not saying you should care that that's the case, just that it IS the case.
Do you not like Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon because of the aesthetics? Because you can describe them differently to more closely fit the theme of your character.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Do you not like Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon because of the aesthetics? Because you can describe them differently to more closely fit the theme of your character.
This is a very good point that many people forget.
If you are planning on a tier 3 campaign it might make sense to multi class into a martial class for more attacks. That’s too big an investment though if you only make it to 9 or 10.
Pole Arm Master kinda sorta gets around that though if you can utilize your bonus action. It also means that warcaster is not absolutely required.
Tempest Cleric Is a fun melee class, along with forge and war.
The benefit of Spirit Shroud is that you can cast it as a bonus action, and if some effect gives you multiple attacks (not really a strength of clerics, though it technically applies to Spiritual Weapon) it applies to all of them.
Spirit Shroud also has some damage type flexibility that you can use to exploit vulnerabilities.
At any rate, I'm going to encourage the reflavoring route. These spells are the spells you use to make melee clerics viable. Boil them down to just their mechanics (i.e. Spiritual Weapon is just bonus action spell force damage that has a limited targeting area) and rebuild them to suit your concept. Maybe you're throwing force javelins or stabbing through a spatial rift or controlling a minor summoned celestial. Making it your own is part of the fun. Just make sure you remember the relevant keywords like melee spell attack and apply rules accordingly.
Like others have said, reflavoring may be the way to go. If you want to feel more nature based, the spirit guardians can be small lightning bugs or will-o-wisp like balls of light flitting around while your spiritual weapon is an ethereal giant wasp stinging your target
lots of ways to reflavor the look of spells
But if you prefer spirit shroud, go for it. Clerics have a lot going for them that if you prefer this route it’s completely valid. Plus it applies to your pole arm master bonus attack that you would be using in place of your spiritual weapon
I think Spirit Shroud is balanced around using it on a character with extra attack. And frankly, I think Spirit Guardians would be the stronger concentration spell even when put on a character with extra attack. It's just one hell of a spell. It's a blender of death.
You can drop spiritual weapon for polearm master and still use Spirit Guardians. If you do decide to go for polearm master and warcaster then I think you should look for a way to pick up booming blade. A variant human Arcana Cleric could have all of this online by level 5.
I agree 1000% with the sentiment that you should be looking for ways to flavor the spells. I find spiritual weapon and spirit guardians in particular to be excellent blank canvases with which to create the visual effects you're imagining.
I think Spirit Shroud is balanced around using it on a character with extra attack. And frankly, I think Spirit Guardians would be the stronger concentration spell even when put on a character with extra attack. It's just one hell of a spell. It's a blender of death.
You can drop spiritual weapon for polearm master and still use Spirit Guardians. If you do decide to go for polearm master and warcaster then I think you should look for a way to pick up booming blade. A variant human Arcana Cleric could have all of this online by level 5.
I agree 1000% with the sentiment that you should be looking for ways to flavor the spells. I find spiritual weapon and spirit guardians in particular to be excellent blank canvases with which to create the visual effects you're imagining.
Booming blade can no longer be used with spell sniper because the range was errata'd to "self." That means that you can't use it with a pole arm at reach distance :/ Not sure why they nerfed it, but they did.
I think Spirit Shroud is balanced around using it on a character with extra attack. And frankly, I think Spirit Guardians would be the stronger concentration spell even when put on a character with extra attack. It's just one hell of a spell. It's a blender of death.
You can drop spiritual weapon for polearm master and still use Spirit Guardians. If you do decide to go for polearm master and warcaster then I think you should look for a way to pick up booming blade. A variant human Arcana Cleric could have all of this online by level 5.
I agree 1000% with the sentiment that you should be looking for ways to flavor the spells. I find spiritual weapon and spirit guardians in particular to be excellent blank canvases with which to create the visual effects you're imagining.
To be frank, I see Spirit Shroud the "poor man's" Spirit Guardians. It's actually a good option for a Paladin who doesn't have access to SG. But if I have access to both, I can't think of a situation where I would prefer the Shroud except if it's strictly for flavor.
Definitely agree SeanJP. Spirit Shroud is just a worse spell.
Noxid86 the problem with replacing spiritual weapon with polearm master is twofold.
Unless the polearm you want is a quarterstaff and you go Nature Cleric, then you will need strength as a primary stat. Spiritual Weapon allows you to focus solely on wisdom.
The bonus action from PAM is tied to using the attack action. Any time you choose to cast a spell as your action you will not have a bonus action to use.
A polearm master cleric is certainly possible, but the class is not really built to use it well on a consistent basis. I think you would be better served by a multiclass that combines extra attack and access to Spirit Guardians. I think Eldritch Knight/Cleric and Ranger/Cleric are your best bets to pursue that concept to its fullest.
Definitely agree SeanJP. Spirit Shroud is just a worse spell.
Noxid86 the problem with replacing spiritual weapon with polearm master is twofold.
Unless the polearm you want is a quarterstaff and you go Nature Cleric, then you will need strength as a primary stat. Spiritual Weapon allows you to focus solely on wisdom.
The bonus action from PAM is tied to using the attack action. Any time you choose to cast a spell as your action you will not have a bonus action to use.
A polearm master cleric is certainly possible, but the class is not really built to use it well on a consistent basis. I think you would be better served by a multiclass that combines extra attack and access to Spirit Guardians. I think Eldritch Knight/Cleric and Ranger/Cleric are your best bets to pursue that concept to its fullest.
Not only that, Spiritual Weapon is only using your bonus action. You can still do a melee attack, or spell (if you cast SW on a previous turn), or cantrip, or dodge, or whatever, and use SW on your turn.
Oh absolutely. Spiritual Weapon leaves you with a diverse set of options for your action every turn. Polearm Master is much more demanding. The OP seems to want it though, and I can certainly understand because polearm fighting is one of my favorite combat styles. Since it's costing a feat AND is a worse effect than the more standard spiritual weapon I think that really merits going for multiclass high synergy ideas.
In most cases, SG is just better than SS. There are a few cases when SS can be great. Mainly:
You've Multiclassed to get Extra Attack. Even then, you're relying on your 3+ attacks to land, whereas SG deals half damage even on a successful save.
Somehow Radiant and Necrotic damage aren't doing the trick and you need to deal Cold damage.
You're fighting a creature that's healing itself, and you absolutely need to stop it. (Spirit Shroud damage can't be healed).
I could see a very specific and effective use case for SS (besides multiclassing) ... A higher level Death Cleric casting Inflict Wounds, Touch of Death and Improved Reaper to deal some unresistable burst necrotic damage.
5th level Inflict Wounds (Necromancy, Melee Spell Attack) = 7d10 Necrotic Touch of Death = 39+ Necrotic Inescapable Destruction = Necrotic can't be resisted Improved Reaper = Necromancy spells up to 5th level can hit two adjacent targets instead of 1 Upcast Spirit Shroud = Melee Attacks gain maybe 3d8 Necrotic, and target can't heal.
I'm pretty sure this thread you necroed was about Spirit Guardians vs Spirit Shroudwith Spiritual Weaponin consideration as well, but also I'm pretty sure the posters up above already covered how Spirit Shroud is subpar by Cleric standards and radically better for a Warlock, Paladin, or possibly Bladesinger.
It's too bad there aren't any spellcasters with Reverse Quicken (Slothful Spell, maybe?). If you could cast a bonus action spell using a normal action, you'd be able to combine Spirit Shroud with Spiritual Weapon the same way you can combine Spirit Guardians with Spiritual Weapon, by casting them both on turn 1.
I would say that Spirit Shroud is only good on Fighters or any other class with multi attack feature, and even then, with 4 attacks per attack action, I'd still pick Spirit Guardians over Spirit Shroud if I had a the choice. 35 F diameter sphere with 3d8 dmg to everything, and a guaranteed (3d8)/2 just surpases Spirit Shroud completely.
Spirit Guardians is far far better on a Cleric. I wonder why Clerics even get access to Spirit Shroud. It mainly makes sense for Eldritch Knights since you can't cast it on another target than yourself.
It's too bad there aren't any spellcasters with Reverse Quicken (Slothful Spell, maybe?). If you could cast a bonus action spell using a normal action, you'd be able to combine Spirit Shroud with Spiritual Weapon the same way you can combine Spirit Guardians with Spiritual Weapon, by casting them both on turn 1.
Unfortunately, RAW you can't cast those both in the same turn.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm building a cleric at level 3. I really wanted a heavy armor melee fighting cleric. While I know that clerics arent optimal for melee DPS, I thought it would be a cool esthetic. I think the spiritual weapon spell is silly and want to avoid using it so I thought it would be fun to build a cleric with polearm mastery, take warcaster at 4 and be able to double attack with spirit shroud up and opportunity attack hold person when they enter my reach.
Unfortunately, it seems the two god-tier spells for clerics are spirit guardians and spiritual weapon. I hate these spells. I dont want to use them. But I also dont want to be at a massive disadvantage for it.
Spirit guardians does 3d8 damage to anyone within 15 feet that fails a save.
Spirit shroud does 1d8 per attack.
Both require concentration but spirit guardians takes the cake in duration as well.
1 - It seems like Spirit Guardians is just plain "better" from a numbers persective. Since they are both level 3 cleric spells, is there ever a situation in which spirit shroud is optimal?
2 - Does anyone have any build tips for making a melee cleric who fights with a polearm? Should I dip fighter?
Spirit Guardians IS better, because you're talking about 3d8 AOE damage (half if they save) vs 1d8 per single target you hit with an attack. Also, if you pick up Polearm Master you have to wait 4 more levels before you can pick up Warcaster.
If you want to go for flavor and concept, you do you. Your build would still be okay and reasonably effective as a character. But a Cleric with Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + main action of choice each turn will be kicking your a** in terms of effectiveness. I'm not saying you should care that that's the case, just that it IS the case.
Do you not like Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon because of the aesthetics? Because you can describe them differently to more closely fit the theme of your character.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This is a very good point that many people forget.
If you are planning on a tier 3 campaign it might make sense to multi class into a martial class for more attacks. That’s too big an investment though if you only make it to 9 or 10.
Pole Arm Master kinda sorta gets around that though if you can utilize your bonus action. It also means that warcaster is not absolutely required.
Tempest Cleric Is a fun melee class, along with forge and war.
The benefit of Spirit Shroud is that you can cast it as a bonus action, and if some effect gives you multiple attacks (not really a strength of clerics, though it technically applies to Spiritual Weapon) it applies to all of them.
Spirit Shroud also has some damage type flexibility that you can use to exploit vulnerabilities.
At any rate, I'm going to encourage the reflavoring route. These spells are the spells you use to make melee clerics viable. Boil them down to just their mechanics (i.e. Spiritual Weapon is just bonus action spell force damage that has a limited targeting area) and rebuild them to suit your concept. Maybe you're throwing force javelins or stabbing through a spatial rift or controlling a minor summoned celestial. Making it your own is part of the fun. Just make sure you remember the relevant keywords like melee spell attack and apply rules accordingly.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Like others have said, reflavoring may be the way to go. If you want to feel more nature based, the spirit guardians can be small lightning bugs or will-o-wisp like balls of light flitting around while your spiritual weapon is an ethereal giant wasp stinging your target
lots of ways to reflavor the look of spells
But if you prefer spirit shroud, go for it. Clerics have a lot going for them that if you prefer this route it’s completely valid. Plus it applies to your pole arm master bonus attack that you would be using in place of your spiritual weapon
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think Spirit Shroud is balanced around using it on a character with extra attack. And frankly, I think Spirit Guardians would be the stronger concentration spell even when put on a character with extra attack. It's just one hell of a spell. It's a blender of death.
You can drop spiritual weapon for polearm master and still use Spirit Guardians. If you do decide to go for polearm master and warcaster then I think you should look for a way to pick up booming blade. A variant human Arcana Cleric could have all of this online by level 5.
I agree 1000% with the sentiment that you should be looking for ways to flavor the spells. I find spiritual weapon and spirit guardians in particular to be excellent blank canvases with which to create the visual effects you're imagining.
Booming blade can no longer be used with spell sniper because the range was errata'd to "self." That means that you can't use it with a pole arm at reach distance :/ Not sure why they nerfed it, but they did.
You can still use it with a spear or quarterstaff though
To be frank, I see Spirit Shroud the "poor man's" Spirit Guardians. It's actually a good option for a Paladin who doesn't have access to SG. But if I have access to both, I can't think of a situation where I would prefer the Shroud except if it's strictly for flavor.
True, if pam is build-critical
Definitely agree SeanJP. Spirit Shroud is just a worse spell.
Noxid86 the problem with replacing spiritual weapon with polearm master is twofold.
A polearm master cleric is certainly possible, but the class is not really built to use it well on a consistent basis. I think you would be better served by a multiclass that combines extra attack and access to Spirit Guardians. I think Eldritch Knight/Cleric and Ranger/Cleric are your best bets to pursue that concept to its fullest.
Not only that, Spiritual Weapon is only using your bonus action. You can still do a melee attack, or spell (if you cast SW on a previous turn), or cantrip, or dodge, or whatever, and use SW on your turn.
Oh absolutely. Spiritual Weapon leaves you with a diverse set of options for your action every turn. Polearm Master is much more demanding. The OP seems to want it though, and I can certainly understand because polearm fighting is one of my favorite combat styles. Since it's costing a feat AND is a worse effect than the more standard spiritual weapon I think that really merits going for multiclass high synergy ideas.
In most cases, SG is just better than SS. There are a few cases when SS can be great. Mainly:
I could see a very specific and effective use case for SS (besides multiclassing) ... A higher level Death Cleric casting Inflict Wounds, Touch of Death and Improved Reaper to deal some unresistable burst necrotic damage.
5th level Inflict Wounds (Necromancy, Melee Spell Attack) = 7d10 Necrotic
Touch of Death = 39+ Necrotic
Inescapable Destruction = Necrotic can't be resisted
Improved Reaper = Necromancy spells up to 5th level can hit two adjacent targets instead of 1
Upcast Spirit Shroud = Melee Attacks gain maybe 3d8 Necrotic, and target can't heal.
I'm pretty sure this thread you necroed was about Spirit Guardians vs Spirit Shroud with Spiritual Weapon in consideration as well, but also I'm pretty sure the posters up above already covered how Spirit Shroud is subpar by Cleric standards and radically better for a Warlock, Paladin, or possibly Bladesinger.
It's too bad there aren't any spellcasters with Reverse Quicken (Slothful Spell, maybe?). If you could cast a bonus action spell using a normal action, you'd be able to combine Spirit Shroud with Spiritual Weapon the same way you can combine Spirit Guardians with Spiritual Weapon, by casting them both on turn 1.
I would say that Spirit Shroud is only good on Fighters or any other class with multi attack feature, and even then, with 4 attacks per attack action, I'd still pick Spirit Guardians over Spirit Shroud if I had a the choice. 35 F diameter sphere with 3d8 dmg to everything, and a guaranteed (3d8)/2 just surpases Spirit Shroud completely.
Spirit Guardians is far far better on a Cleric. I wonder why Clerics even get access to Spirit Shroud. It mainly makes sense for Eldritch Knights since you can't cast it on another target than yourself.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Unfortunately, RAW you can't cast those both in the same turn.