One of my friends wants to run something akin to a blue mage from Magic: the Gathering. Specifically, he wants to make something that's really good at denying options. One of his requests is to be really good at using counterspell and dispel magic. The world is going to be high-magic, so enemy spellcasters are probably going to be abundant.
Abjuration wizards can activate/replenish their arcane wards after casting such spells, and at 10th level they add their proficiency bonus to the check. War wizards gain features that specifically trigger off of using these spells, making them another great option.
Lore bards get counterspell earlier than other bards with their additional magical secrets at 6th level, and they add half their proficiency bonus from jack of all trades. At 14th level, they can even boost their roll using their own inspiration dice!
Fiend warlocks can boost their spellcasting checks by a d10 once per short rest, and they also regain their slots on short rests. Limited ammo hurts, but they primarily rely on their at-will options, anyway.
Sorcerers are niche when it comes to a unique counterspell boost; they can't be counterspelled themselves if they use the subtle spell metamagic! In addition, they can instead twin the spells. Dispel magic is more likely to happen, as multiple long-lasting effects can be dispelled at once, but counterspell is a bit harder. This requires a very specific scenario, where two enemy spellcasters are casting spells simultaneously, like one holding bane and letting it loose right as another casts fireball.
Eldritch knights can use action surge to cast dispel magic twice on a turn while maintaining their fighter level progression. Abundance of ASIs makes mage slayer a solid pick. Only issue is that they get the spells late.
Arcane tricksters can hide with a bonus action, then cast either spell from out of sight. This then reveals themselves, but I'm pretty sure you can't be counterspelled if the enemy cannot detect you. Check with your DM before attempting abuse. Extra ASI at 10th level can translate into mage slayer. Also suffers from late spell access and might not have both due to the enchantment/illusion limitation.
Don't forget the Glibness spell. This guarantees a minimum d20 roll of 15 on Charisma checks for 1 hour, and for a Charisma caster, Counterspell and Dispel Magic use Charisma checks! You'll be at least 15th level when you get this spell, and probably have a Charisma bonus of +5 at that point, so your adjusted d20 roll will be at least 20, minimum. The target number to counter/dispel a 9th level spell is only 19, so with Glibness/Counterspell or Glibness/Dispel Magic combo, you pretty much automatically succeed any counter or dispel without even rolling.
This is mainly a Bard/Sorcerer strategy; Wizards counter/dispel with Intelligence checks so it's of no use to them, and Warlocks just don't have spell slots to throw around a lot of Counterspells.
And of course if you're playing a "face" character Glibness has 1001 other uses....
Don't forget the Glibness spell. This guarantees a minimum d20 roll of 15 on Charisma checks for 1 hour, and for a Charisma caster, Counterspell and Dispel Magic use Charisma checks! You'll be at least 15th level when you get this spell, and probably have a Charisma bonus of +5 at that point, so your adjusted d20 roll will be at least 20, minimum. The target number to counter/dispel a 9th level spell is only 19, so with Glibness/Counterspell or Glibness/Dispel Magic combo, you pretty much automatically succeed any counter or dispel without even rolling.
This is mainly a Bard/Sorcerer strategy; Wizards counter/dispel with Intelligence checks so it's of no use to them, and Warlocks just don't have spell slots to throw around a lot of Counterspells.
And of course if you're playing a "face" character Glibness has 1001 other uses....
Of course, Glibness isn't on the sorcerer spell list (for some reason). So this combo is best used as a Lore Bard.
Don't forget the Glibness spell. This guarantees a minimum d20 roll of 15 on Charisma checks for 1 hour, and for a Charisma caster, Counterspell and Dispel Magic use Charisma checks! You'll be at least 15th level when you get this spell, and probably have a Charisma bonus of +5 at that point, so your adjusted d20 roll will be at least 20, minimum. The target number to counter/dispel a 9th level spell is only 19, so with Glibness/Counterspell or Glibness/Dispel Magic combo, you pretty much automatically succeed any counter or dispel without even rolling.
This is mainly a Bard/Sorcerer strategy; Wizards counter/dispel with Intelligence checks so it's of no use to them, and Warlocks just don't have spell slots to throw around a lot of Counterspells.
And of course if you're playing a "face" character Glibness has 1001 other uses....
Of course, Glibness isn't on the sorcerer spell list (for some reason). So this combo is best used as a Lore Bard.
Oops. Lore Bard for the win! Of course, any Bard archetype can rock this combo.
The Sorcerer List seems to be missing a lot of key spells that make some really basic character concepts unworkable.
I think Lore Bard is best mechanically. That half proficiency plus bardic inspiration is unbeatable at counterspelling/dispelling. It's an average +9 to check at later levels, giving 50% chance to counter/dispel 9th level spells using only a 3rd level slot.
Second best at this would be Abjurist Wizard. Which is weird, you'd think they'd be the best at this as it is their specialty, but nope the guy with the lute does it better, somehow.
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Don't forget the Glibness spell. This guarantees a minimum d20 roll of 15 on Charisma checks for 1 hour, and for a Charisma caster, Counterspell and Dispel Magic use Charisma checks! You'll be at least 15th level when you get this spell, and probably have a Charisma bonus of +5 at that point, so your adjusted d20 roll will be at least 20, minimum. The target number to counter/dispel a 9th level spell is only 19, so with Glibness/Counterspell or Glibness/Dispel Magic combo, you pretty much automatically succeed any counter or dispel without even rolling.
This is mainly a Bard/Sorcerer strategy; Wizards counter/dispel with Intelligence checks so it's of no use to them, and Warlocks just don't have spell slots to throw around a lot of Counterspells.
And of course if you're playing a "face" character Glibness has 1001 other uses....
Of course, Glibness isn't on the sorcerer spell list (for some reason). So this combo is best used as a Lore Bard.
Oops. Lore Bard for the win! Of course, any Bard archetype can rock this combo.
The Sorcerer List seems to be missing a lot of key spells that make some really basic character concepts unworkable.
I think Lore Bard is best mechanically. That half proficiency plus bardic inspiration is unbeatable at counterspelling/dispelling. It's an average +9 to check at later levels, giving 50% chance to counter/dispel 9th level spells using only a 3rd level slot.
Second best at this would be Abjurist Wizard. Which is weird, you'd think they'd be the best at this as it is their specialty, but nope the guy with the lute does it better, somehow.
You cant bardic inspiration yourself, but otherwise agreed.
I think Lore Bard is best mechanically. That half proficiency plus bardic inspiration is unbeatable at counterspelling/dispelling. It's an average +9 to check at later levels, giving 50% chance to counter/dispel 9th level spells using only a 3rd level slot.
Second best at this would be Abjurist Wizard. Which is weird, you'd think they'd be the best at this as it is their specialty, but nope the guy with the lute does it better, somehow.
You cant bardic inspiration yourself, but otherwise agreed.
Lore bards can.
Peerless Skill
Starting at 14th level, when you make an ability check, you can expend one use of Bardic Inspiration. Roll a Bardic Inspiration die and add the number rolled to your ability check. You can choose to do so after you roll the die for the ability check, but before the DM tells you whether you succeed or fail.
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I think Lore Bard is best mechanically. That half proficiency plus bardic inspiration is unbeatable at counterspelling/dispelling. It's an average +9 to check at later levels, giving 50% chance to counter/dispel 9th level spells using only a 3rd level slot.
Second best at this would be Abjurist Wizard. Which is weird, you'd think they'd be the best at this as it is their specialty, but nope the guy with the lute does it better, somehow.
You cant bardic inspiration yourself, but otherwise agreed.
Lore bards can.
Peerless Skill
Starting at 14th level, when you make an ability check, you can expend one use of Bardic Inspiration. Roll a Bardic Inspiration die and add the number rolled to your ability check. You can choose to do so after you roll the die for the ability check, but before the DM tells you whether you succeed or fail.
I think Lore Bard is best mechanically. That half proficiency plus bardic inspiration is unbeatable at counterspelling/dispelling. It's an average +9 to check at later levels, giving 50% chance to counter/dispel 9th level spells using only a 3rd level slot.
Second best at this would be Abjurist Wizard. Which is weird, you'd think they'd be the best at this as it is their specialty, but nope the guy with the lute does it better, somehow.
You cant bardic inspiration yourself, but otherwise agreed.
The 14th level ability of Lore Bards lets you roll your own bardic inspiration on an ability check, which Counterspell and Dispel Magic sometimes call for.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The 14th level ability of Lore Bards lets you roll your own bardic inspiration on an ability check, which Counterspell and Dispel Magic sometimes call for.
Starting at 6th level, you can store magical energy within yourself to later empower your damaging spells. In its stored form, this energy is called a power surge.
You can store a maximum number of power surges equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). Whenever you finish a long rest, your number of power surges resets to one. Whenever you successfully end a spell with dispel magic or counterspell, you gain one power surge, as you steal magic from the spell you foiled. If you end a short rest with no power surges, you gain one power surge.
Once per turn when you deal damage to a creature or object with a wizard spell, you can spend one power surge to deal extra force damage to that target. The extra damage equals half your wizard level.
One of my friends wants to run something akin to a blue mage from Magic: the Gathering. Specifically, he wants to make something that's really good at denying options. One of his requests is to be really good at using counterspell and dispel magic. The world is going to be high-magic, so enemy spellcasters are probably going to be abundant.
Abjuration wizards can activate/replenish their arcane wards after casting such spells, and at 10th level they add their proficiency bonus to the check. War wizards gain features that specifically trigger off of using these spells, making them another great option.
Lore bards get counterspell earlier than other bards with their additional magical secrets at 6th level, and they add half their proficiency bonus from jack of all trades. At 14th level, they can even boost their roll using their own inspiration dice!
Fiend warlocks can boost their spellcasting checks by a d10 once per short rest, and they also regain their slots on short rests. Limited ammo hurts, but they primarily rely on their at-will options, anyway.
Sorcerers are niche when it comes to a unique counterspell boost; they can't be counterspelled themselves if they use the subtle spell metamagic! In addition, they can instead twin the spells. Dispel magic is more likely to happen, as multiple long-lasting effects can be dispelled at once, but counterspell is a bit harder. This requires a very specific scenario, where two enemy spellcasters are casting spells simultaneously, like one holding bane and letting it loose right as another casts fireball.
Eldritch knights can use action surge to cast dispel magic twice on a turn while maintaining their fighter level progression. Abundance of ASIs makes mage slayer a solid pick. Only issue is that they get the spells late.
Arcane tricksters can hide with a bonus action, then cast either spell from out of sight. This then reveals themselves, but I'm pretty sure you can't be counterspelled if the enemy cannot detect you. Check with your DM before attempting abuse. Extra ASI at 10th level can translate into mage slayer. Also suffers from late spell access and might not have both due to the enchantment/illusion limitation.
What other setups can I recommend to him?
Personal opinion.
best class to counterspell. Pure sorcerer. With subtle spell.
subtlespell on a counterspell is a counterspell that cannot be countered to put into MtG terms.
I think Lore Bard is best mechanically. That half proficiency plus bardic inspiration is unbeatable at counterspelling/dispelling. It's an average +9 to check at later levels, giving 50% chance to counter/dispel 9th level spells using only a 3rd level slot.
Second best at this would be Abjurist Wizard. Which is weird, you'd think they'd be the best at this as it is their specialty, but nope the guy with the lute does it better, somehow.
Assuming their counter spells go off... because they are in fact counterable as well.
is the spellcaster at risk of being countered on their counter?
if yes. Sorcerers.
if no. Lore bard.
lore bards can counter about anything, but are easily countered themselves.
sorcerers may find it harder to counter spells. But unless they want to, they cannot be countered.
^ and this. Is the fundamental concept being a blue counterspell deck in MtG. Unless you want the spell to go off. It won’t go off. And if a spell you don’t want to happen tries to happen. It’s up to you for it to happen.
the subtlespell metamagic is it’s own built in “counterspell”
edit: given the OP stating the world will be abundant in magic and spellcasters. That puts them at risk of being countered as well. So with that in mind I’d recommend sorcerer option vs lore bard option.
that said, if there’s a lot of enemy sorcerers doing the same thing. Takes his fun away.
would you be able to RAW twin a counterspell to counter a spell and counter a counter for your counter?
my gut says no since the initial counter isn’t there.
A creature only gets one reaction per round. The counter to your counter comes after you attempt to counter your first target, thus you miss your timing to twin it.
At 13th level, wizards can do this with simulacrum, but the copy runs out of spell slots periodically and would need to be replaced. The spell's components make it a rather heavy investment for what amounts to a consumable, but the improved action economy is gravy.
At 17th level (or 18th as a bard), sorcerers and wizards can learn wish, which lets them make simulacrums for free and with only an action. It's pretty broken.
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One of my friends wants to run something akin to a blue mage from Magic: the Gathering. Specifically, he wants to make something that's really good at denying options. One of his requests is to be really good at using counterspell and dispel magic. The world is going to be high-magic, so enemy spellcasters are probably going to be abundant.
Abjuration wizards can activate/replenish their arcane wards after casting such spells, and at 10th level they add their proficiency bonus to the check. War wizards gain features that specifically trigger off of using these spells, making them another great option.
Lore bards get counterspell earlier than other bards with their additional magical secrets at 6th level, and they add half their proficiency bonus from jack of all trades. At 14th level, they can even boost their roll using their own inspiration dice!
Fiend warlocks can boost their spellcasting checks by a d10 once per short rest, and they also regain their slots on short rests. Limited ammo hurts, but they primarily rely on their at-will options, anyway.
Sorcerers are niche when it comes to a unique counterspell boost; they can't be counterspelled themselves if they use the subtle spell metamagic! In addition, they can instead twin the spells. Dispel magic is more likely to happen, as multiple long-lasting effects can be dispelled at once, but counterspell is a bit harder. This requires a very specific scenario, where two enemy spellcasters are casting spells simultaneously, like one holding bane and letting it loose right as another casts fireball.
Eldritch knights can use action surge to cast dispel magic twice on a turn while maintaining their fighter level progression. Abundance of ASIs makes mage slayer a solid pick. Only issue is that they get the spells late.
Arcane tricksters can hide with a bonus action, then cast either spell from out of sight. This then reveals themselves, but I'm pretty sure you can't be counterspelled if the enemy cannot detect you. Check with your DM before attempting abuse. Extra ASI at 10th level can translate into mage slayer. Also suffers from late spell access and might not have both due to the enchantment/illusion limitation.
What other setups can I recommend to him?
Don't forget the Glibness spell. This guarantees a minimum d20 roll of 15 on Charisma checks for 1 hour, and for a Charisma caster, Counterspell and Dispel Magic use Charisma checks! You'll be at least 15th level when you get this spell, and probably have a Charisma bonus of +5 at that point, so your adjusted d20 roll will be at least 20, minimum. The target number to counter/dispel a 9th level spell is only 19, so with Glibness/Counterspell or Glibness/Dispel Magic combo, you pretty much automatically succeed any counter or dispel without even rolling.
This is mainly a Bard/Sorcerer strategy; Wizards counter/dispel with Intelligence checks so it's of no use to them, and Warlocks just don't have spell slots to throw around a lot of Counterspells.
And of course if you're playing a "face" character Glibness has 1001 other uses....
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
Of course, Glibness isn't on the sorcerer spell list (for some reason). So this combo is best used as a Lore Bard.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Oops. Lore Bard for the win! Of course, any Bard archetype can rock this combo.
The Sorcerer List seems to be missing a lot of key spells that make some really basic character concepts unworkable.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I think Lore Bard is best mechanically. That half proficiency plus bardic inspiration is unbeatable at counterspelling/dispelling. It's an average +9 to check at later levels, giving 50% chance to counter/dispel 9th level spells using only a 3rd level slot.
Second best at this would be Abjurist Wizard. Which is weird, you'd think they'd be the best at this as it is their specialty, but nope the guy with the lute does it better, somehow.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
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Amen to that.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
You cant bardic inspiration yourself, but otherwise agreed.
Lore bards can.
Peerless Skill
Starting at 14th level, when you make an ability check, you can expend one use of Bardic Inspiration. Roll a Bardic Inspiration die and add the number rolled to your ability check. You can choose to do so after you roll the die for the ability check, but before the DM tells you whether you succeed or fail.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I wondered if I was missing something.
The 14th level ability of Lore Bards lets you roll your own bardic inspiration on an ability check, which Counterspell and Dispel Magic sometimes call for.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
2 comments and an hour late, but thanks.
That's what I get when I don't refresh my screen.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
A Warmage. If you’re gonna Counterspell and Dispel Magic a lot you might as well get something for it.
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Abjuration wizard too, you add proficiency modifier to counterspell.
Personal opinion.
best class to counterspell. Pure sorcerer. With subtle spell.
subtlespell on a counterspell is a counterspell that cannot be countered to put into MtG terms.
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Sorcerers are the best, because of the subtle spell.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Assuming their counter spells go off... because they are in fact counterable as well.
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It comes down to a fundamental q:
is the spellcaster at risk of being countered on their counter?
if yes. Sorcerers.
if no. Lore bard.
lore bards can counter about anything, but are easily countered themselves.
sorcerers may find it harder to counter spells. But unless they want to, they cannot be countered.
^ and this. Is the fundamental concept being a blue counterspell deck in MtG. Unless you want the spell to go off. It won’t go off. And if a spell you don’t want to happen tries to happen. It’s up to you for it to happen.
the subtlespell metamagic is it’s own built in “counterspell”
edit: given the OP stating the world will be abundant in magic and spellcasters. That puts them at risk of being countered as well. So with that in mind I’d recommend sorcerer option vs lore bard option.
that said, if there’s a lot of enemy sorcerers doing the same thing. Takes his fun away.
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Q related to something OP said:
would you be able to RAW twin a counterspell to counter a spell and counter a counter for your counter?
my gut says no since the initial counter isn’t there.
Blank
A creature only gets one reaction per round. The counter to your counter comes after you attempt to counter your first target, thus you miss your timing to twin it.
At 13th level, wizards can do this with simulacrum, but the copy runs out of spell slots periodically and would need to be replaced. The spell's components make it a rather heavy investment for what amounts to a consumable, but the improved action economy is gravy.
At 17th level (or 18th as a bard), sorcerers and wizards can learn wish, which lets them make simulacrums for free and with only an action. It's pretty broken.