So, the Bastion stuff came out just as y group had decided we were done playtesting new stuff.

We'd playtested everything in all the UA's, but we were burnt out on it after 8. We'll be out of anything else going forward. But the Bastion stuff got us all starry eyed, because that's what we've been waiting for.  The most exciting stuff to us (including ou forever player) hasn't been the classes, but everything else.

So I was curious if anyone else is itching for more DM stuff, and what they'd like to see in it.

For my part, I'd love for them to actually do something with crafting as a whole -- aside from it being a hot topic and major ting right now in general, the rules could use a bit ore around that.

I'd also love to see more direction around Open World stuff -- but, ultimately, that comes down to my general thinking in that I just want the to layer on what they have built, not change it wholesale.

I think it is too much to ask that they take this opportunity to course correct and give to DMs the same kind of deep support they have given to players (limits on size of book and all that), as right now a lot of Dms, going by what is seen here and in other forums, feel as if they have been screwed over, lol.

I look at it as a swing back to the center in a lot of ways -- but as I said, I don't expect it. 

I'd also like to see a lot more openness to the system for CR determination and creature creation -- I have seen a lot of complaints that the CR system is too vague, and not very flexible (and yes, a lot of DMs copain about how monsters are too easy to kill under it).

Lastly, if they are going to include options in the new DMG, they need to be enabled in the DDB stuff -- yeah, that's a pet peeve of mine, but I will stand by it.

What I want is more stuff about non-combat encounters. Guidelines for Skill Challenges, more diversity in terrain rules. And suggestions for running things like: heists, mysteries, political intrigue, and exploration focused games.

Quote from Agilemind >>

What I want is more stuff about non-combat encounters. Guidelines for Skill Challenges, more diversity in terrain rules. And suggestions for running things like: heists, mysteries, political intrigue, and exploration focused games.

I explain to folks that a lot of my campaigns are like Gulliver's Travels -- and then rapidly learn that very, very few people these days have ever actually read the book, lol. So then I say it is like a travel show -- you are the travelers, learning about new stuff.

So yes, exploration and the like is super cool to me.

And I run campaigns where one adventure might be a comedy, another might be a horror, another might be a detective mystery. I have a whole slew of genres, lol. AMong them Heists and political intrigue -- all as part of the larger idea of an open world exploration.

Much of what I do in terms of mechanics is based int hat kind of thing -- adding on to existing stuff. So yes, this is very much what I want to see more of.

I want to see improvements to crafting and making new spells. 

Quote from optimistic14 >>

I want to see improvements to crafting and making new spells. 

 While being able to create new spells would be interesting, it is difficult for me to imagine creating a system that would keep new spells balanced. It seems to me that most of the spells carry on traditions from the earlier editions of D&D, and the rules for how powerful they should be (considering level of damage, buffs/debuffs, area of effect, casting time, range, type of save, concentration or no, etc.) do not seem to be particularly well defined. To be able to create relatively balanced new spells, some sort of system would need to be developed that defined the parameters for this, and I would guess that the current spell list would be difficult at least to fit into such a framework. It would be tremendous if they could put together something functional along these lines, though.

I want them to fix mounted combat. 

I wonder how much DMG we’ll actually see. I doubt they want 10’s of thousands of people to weigh in on their advice for world building. Not that people wouldn’t have good things to say, but more the good things would be overwhelmed by the bad and not really add much.

I am curious about the magic items, they said there’s going to be options for unarmed items and such. I’m hoping they steal the pf2e system, which they’ve done for a few other things. Also, that takes up so much real estate in the DMG, so it will be interesting to see.

Agreed I’d like to see skill challenges come back.

And I’d be curious to see if they do any more for crafting than they did in xanathar’s. I know people want it, and I’d kind of like it, but I’d hate to see it go some video game route of, you need 10 iron ingots and 3 vials of dragon blood or what have you. If you start writing down specific formulas, then DMs need to start tracking all that stuff, making sure they’re giving enough, or making sure they’re not giving some things so PCs aren’t making vorpal swords at level 2.

I know tons of people want crafting, but honestly I think that should be reserved for a specific supplemental book. Crafting is such a headache to track, and it has such profound implications for world building that I really kind of hate it -> if anyone can craft a flametongue sword with just some fire elemental essence and a couple of weeks of work, then why aren't wizards farming them to provide everyone and their grandmother one of them?

Quote from Xalthu >>

I wonder how much DMG we’ll actually see. I doubt they want 10’s of thousands of people to weigh in on their advice for world building. Not that people wouldn’t have good things to say, but more the good things would be overwhelmed by the bad and not really add much.

I am curious about the magic items, they said there’s going to be options for unarmed items and such. I’m hoping they steal the pf2e system, which they’ve done for a few other things. Also, that takes up so much real estate in the DMG, so it will be interesting to see.

Agreed I’d like to see skill challenges come back.

And I’d be curious to see if they do any more for crafting than they did in xanathar’s. I know people want it, and I’d kind of like it, but I’d hate to see it go some video game route of, you need 10 iron ingots and 3 vials of dragon blood or what have you. If you start writing down specific formulas, then DMs need to start tracking all that stuff, making sure they’re giving enough, or making sure they’re not giving some things so PCs aren’t making vorpal swords at level 2.

 
You hit upon a major point for me, lol. I don't want to see a formula or recipe of that sort, but I wouldn't mind some decent guidance on how to create a formula if they go that route

Ideally, I'd like to see them not go the formula route at all (although they already did in Xanathars, withthe "go find a monster, kill it, grab that, and then you can go on" thing that's seriously buried). Find some other route to doing the make your own magic item thing -- but at the same time I confess to disliking the way Bastions did the "here's a free magic item".

Crafting needs something fresh -- and that means not taking another cue from video games. 

unarmed stuff would be nice, but I worry they will lean further into the Brawler side of things, lol. So, more like "this chair leg becomes magical". I hope not -- I've introduced brass knuckles and saps, for example, and would not be against changing them to fit with an existing thing as long as it worked well.

Skill challenges are an interesting thing. A lot of that will depend on how it is implemented -- some people don't like the multiple rolls thing, others really get into it.

As for not seeing much, well...

I dunno. I think they do need to do some sort of large scale testing, just for CYA purposes from a PR standpoint if nothing else. But I want to see where they are going. They've been a lot more willing to include magic items this time around, they are talking about making and bringing in changes and new ones, and that changes the magic economy of the game as a whole. 

They've been tweaking actions and conditions the whole time, and I've seen little said about that outside of some already rough conversations around Monks, lol, so I think there is something there that is going on as well.

it is somewhat a tell that they released a pretty old basis for Bastions (it doesn't mesh well with existing stuff in some ways) and I expect at least one more redux of it, but I do hope they show other mechanics in general -- if nothing else, to help us prep worlds for it.

Quote from Agilemind >>

I know tons of people want crafting, but honestly I think that should be reserved for a specific supplemental book. Crafting is such a headache to track, and it has such profound implications for world building that I really kind of hate it -> if anyone can craft a flametongue sword with just some fire elemental essence and a couple of weeks of work, then why aren't wizards farming them to provide everyone and their grandmother one of them?

 
Especially in a game that is essentially created intentionally to be "low magic item". If players can create magical items, then that whole concept goes out the window.

IT would also seriously disrupt the other portions, where magical items are described as being things that "the knowledge of making was lost long ago". While lost knowledge can be found again, making it common knowledge is a separate issue, and has some big impact on worldbuilding decisions, even if that includes a restriction to only "certain kinds of people".

There would need to be a mechanism put in there to really make crafting magical items a challenge if they are going to keep that kind of "low magic item" ethos going -- which is why I wonder if they are just going to open it up, discarding that element.

Quote from Agilemind >>

I know tons of people want crafting, but honestly I think that should be reserved for a specific supplemental book. Crafting is such a headache to track, and it has such profound implications for world building that I really kind of hate it -> if anyone can craft a flametongue sword with just some fire elemental essence and a couple of weeks of work, then why aren't wizards farming them to provide everyone and their grandmother one of them?

 The lazy option is certainly the video game route; just go through loot tables and replace some magic item drops with rare component drops. This basically amounts to "you find a magic item in pieces you have to put together".

The core difficulty with magic items is that you want a system that's usable by PCs but not exploitable, and it's really hard to achieve both unless you make them cost something other than money.

Quote from Agilemind >>

I know tons of people want crafting, but honestly I think that should be reserved for a specific supplemental book. Crafting is such a headache to track, and it has such profound implications for world building that I really kind of hate it -> if anyone can craft a flametongue sword with just some fire elemental essence and a couple of weeks of work, then why aren't wizards farming them to provide everyone and their grandmother one of them?

 Yeah, crafting can be a lot of fun, but to be really well implemented, it is best off in its own supplement. I have been playing some in a campaign focused on the group specifically going out to gather rare monster parts for various reasons, including crafting magic item. We are using a 3rd party system for this, and it is good for the goals of that game, but I think it would be overwhelming and intrusive in any of the other campaigns that I am involved in.

Crafting is a massive hydra of a feature and I just don't see them doing it. If you've tried to implement it yourself, you'll know. Think loot is a pain to generate now? Try it when you need to add crafting drops to every loot pool and ensure the party is A) getting enough in quantity and variety to actually make use of them, but B) not able to make anything beyond their current power level. So you need formulas worked out ahead of time, and drops worked out ahead of time on top of everything else you need to do to prep. And then when your player wants to saw off the horn of the auroch they just killed to craft with it, you need to come up with new formulas that include it.

It grows and spreads and pervades every aspect of the game until you burn out as a DM and chuck the whole thing out the window. It works in video games because they plan out the entire system before the player ever screws with it, but in D&D the players will absolutely screw with it. They will do things you didn't anticipate, and you will try to work it into the system, and the system will just continue to expand and bloat until it is unmanageable.

This is not a new observation. It has always been true, and it's why D&D has never had a comprehensive crafting system. And probably never will. Officially, anyway. There are plenty of 3rd party attempts out there if you're curious.

I don't know why DMs think the Public Feedback for DM-oriented One D&D material is gonna be any less ******* stupid and self-destructive than the Public Feedback for the player-facing material.  This entire testing cycle is a farce at this point, is there any reason to get excited for any of it anymore?

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

I don't know why DMs think the Public Feedback for DM-oriented One D&D material is gonna be any less ******* stupid and self-destructive than the Public Feedback for the player-facing material.  This entire testing cycle is a farce at this point, is there any reason to get excited for any of it anymore?

 
oh, I have no doubt the public feedback will be that way.

I suspect that the Bastion stuff will be brutal (say that like the guy did in Dune, lol).

I want to see it, however, because I want to see the ideas, see the presence or absence of support, see the phenomenal forum threads about each piece, and then see what they do about it.

Because there's a horrible thing about DM stuff feedback: they will have to throw out 80% of feedback, since 80% of players aren't DMs, and at least half of them don't understand the stuff a DM has to do.

Which I, personally, think includes the Development team, myself, but that may be a personal problem.

Crafting is very option in any game so no need to say we dont want it, its like every other mechanic use what u want but let the rest there for others

Quote from scatterbraind >>

Crafting is a massive hydra of a feature and I just don't see them doing it. If you've tried to implement it yourself, you'll know. Think loot is a pain to generate now? Try it when you need to add crafting drops to every loot pool and ensure the party is A) getting enough in quantity and variety to actually make use of them, but B) not able to make anything beyond their current power level. So you need formulas worked out ahead of time, and drops worked out ahead of time on top of everything else you need to do to prep. And then when your player wants to saw off the horn of the auroch they just killed to craft with it, you need to come up with new formulas that include it.

It grows and spreads and pervades every aspect of the game until you burn out as a DM and chuck the whole thing out the window. It works in video games because they plan out the entire system before the player ever screws with it, but in D&D the players will absolutely screw with it. They will do things you didn't anticipate, and you will try to work it into the system, and the system will just continue to expand and bloat until it is unmanageable.

This is not a new observation. It has always been true, and it's why D&D has never had a comprehensive crafting system. And probably never will. Officially, anyway. There are plenty of 3rd party attempts out there if you're curious.

 TBH having played tons of videogames with different types of crafting the only version I see being viable in D&D is the one used in the very first Witcher game, where crafting uses a small number of basic components and everything you collect gets broken down into those basic components.
E.g. a giant-slayer oil might need 3 tar, 2 toxins, and 3 emulsifiers
horns, antlers, shells, and bones would break down into emulsifiers
poison glands, stingers, venom sacs would break down into toxins
hair, skin, and meat would break down into  tar

Things like fangs from a poisonous snake could breakdown into a toxin and an emulsifier. 

It would make it at least somewhat scalable to the diversity of creatures one typically encounters in a D&D campaign though it does end up a lot less satisfying for the players.

The core conceit of a crafting system is to be able to use what you HAVE to make what you NEED. It appeals to players who like to do the legwork and show up to the troll den with vials of acid and alchemist's fire ready, or take on a dragon with a party fortified with the correct resistance potions.  The idea is to reward intelligent use of limited resources and proper foresight in preparation.

In D&D specifically, crafting is also often viewed as the only way players will ever get to play with any of that Cool Shit the DMG says nobody ever gets.  If a wizard player really wants a Staff of Power, they can ask their DM to let them find one later - in which case the DM will say no and accuse the player of being an evil munchkin - or they can try and work towards their Staff of Power throughout the entire campaign. 

D&D is about the only game I know of where the game master is actively instructed to NEVER let players acquire any of the crazy awesome stuff the books are packed with, and a strong push for crafting is in part pushback against the idea that loot always needs to be godawful in every game.  DMs who unclench and let their players acquire powerful and/or fun to use items generally see a lot less clamour for player-side crafting. 

The books aren't packed with crazy awesome stuff, honestly the number of magic items that are really cool is incredibly small. Most are incremental bonuses or fill a specific utility / narrative purpose. The number that are crazy powerful can be counted on two hands.

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

  DMs who unclench and let their players acquire powerful and/or fun to use items generally see a lot less clamour for player-side crafting. 

 Those same DMs show up on the boards a couple weeks later complaining that CR is broken and terrible and the PCs are steamrolling encounters way above their level because they gave the Sword of Kas to a 3rd level fighter. 

It’s almost like we need to go back to the 4e model, where gear of a certain strength was assumed by a certain level, but that was also a real pain the DM for — you practically needed an excel sheet to track and make sure everyone had their +2 neck slot item, etc.

Still, I generally agree with you, and prefer more magic items to show up in game. But they need to figure a way to do it that doesn’t break bounded accuracy. That’s the real trick.