Yes, Way of the Four Elements Monks would be a lot better with access to things like elemental cantrips (looking at you, Shape Water). Their core design is ass-backwards such that as new spells come out, there's no way for the Monk to pick them up, unlike with 1/3 casters.
Shape water is kind of garbage. It's almost entirely rp flavor only and some of it can actually be wrapped into elemental attunement. And 4 elements monks already have a version of it. They don't need this cantrip in their bag of tricks. Most things that people actually want to do with shape of water is actually very clever but tends to be outside of the bounds of what the spell can do and lies entirely in the realm of the DM allowing you to do it anyway. Much as with Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy.
But even more than that. 4 elements has this gem which can actually serve some of the very same purposes.
Shape the Flowing River.
As an action, you can spend 1 ki point to choose an area of ice or water no larger than 30 feet on a side within 120 feet of you. You can change water to ice within the area and vice versa, and you can reshape ice in the area in any manner you choose. You can raise or lower the ice's elevation, create or fill in a trench, erect or flatten a wall, or form a pillar. The extent of any such changes can't exceed half the area's largest dimension. For example, if you affect a 30-foot square, you can create a pillar up to 15 feet high. raise or lower the square's elevation by up to 15 feet, dig a trench up to 15 feet deep, and so on. You can't shape the ice to trap or injure a creature in the area.
What I'm picking up from all of you is that the class doesn't need to be rewritten. Rather, a few small tweaks such as lowering the ki-cost and giving them more spell/cantrip/discipline options would be a better way to go. Correct?
As I said in my first post. I'd be careful about lowering the costs... It comes with a lot of risks of upping things too much on something that is already pretty strong when actually used right. That's why my current suggestion is to actually give just a little bit more ki. It's easier to potentially scale and the risks are smaller with similar rewards.
What is functionally different about lowering ki cost vs giving a few more ki? The only thing that stands out to me is giving more viability to FOB and Stunning Strike since now they have a lower relative cost (FOB at level 3 for 1/3 of your ki is much different from FOB at level 3 for 1/5 of your ki).
I personally found that lowering cost by 1 ki for all EDs is a good compromise. I'd recommend doing that or offering more EDs at each level.
The Functional difference between the two. Is that you don't change the balance of the maximum power that something can reach at any point in the game. You don't turn level 5 casting into suddenly level 6 casting. You don't Allow automatic upcasting which not even full casters can do when they first gain a spell. There is a lot of power and abuse that somebody like me can abuse heavily. Like for example at level 17 with just Hold Person I can potentially shut down at least half of an encounter by my self by forcing Wis saves on a bunch of things that don't have good wis saves for multiple rounds for just 6 ki. And with my naturally high dex and if I've potentially done something like taken Alert I can potentially do this at the start of combat before anything else gets to respond. But even at lower level like say level 6 when I can first get hold of Hold Person. I can cast it just as powerfully as the full Casters can do with it. Shutting down 2 people at the same time. Which just 2 people at level 6 potentially radically alters the power balance between the party and the enemies. But I can do this more times a day than even the full casters can. With their own spells.
Or with the rather lack luster Burning hands which there is not a lot of reason to take and even on full casters is seen as a mediocre spell at best and no reason to ever really upcast. Your basically turning it into a level 2 spell at the point where the spell is still marginally useful. Again as strong as any full caster can do but as a 4 elements monk I can do more times than they can.
I actually tested this kind of fix with a few groups. And while plenty just lower it and don't realize what's going on, we actually were testing these kinds of things, and many of them did not see "Oh I can do more monk stuff now!" which is the aim of lowering the ki cost of the powers anyway. What they were seeing often enough when we really broke it down was that They were still the same cost but they were now more powerful than before. Burning hands was worth taking because it wasn't a lack luster close range 1st level spell. It was worth taking because it was automatically a second level spell without any extra effort from them. And when we tested in the level 11 to 14 range. They weren't casting base level fireballs because they got an extra ki out of things. They were quickly to the point that they were still spending all 4 ki when they could because that meant even more damage basically for free. They weren't seeing it as more cost to spend the 4 ki. it was already 4 ki in their minds even after the lowering of costs, but now with free added power. The only time that the 3 ki cost mattered was when they were one ki short to cast it again. Basically turning the 2 fireballs they could cast per short rest into 3 fireballs they could cast at short rest and 2 of those fireballs were one step better.
What giving them a little extra ki does is it addresses the tightness of the costs that are in place without actually handing over a bunch of free extra power at the same time. yes it can do something like allow somebody to cast 1 more fireball. But not with the added bonus that most of those fireballs are actually stronger than they were. Also with the prices being functionally the same in ki cost. The Core Monk Abilities still look exceedingly low and thus still feel justifiable and much easier to mix in. Your not changing the perceptions or limitations too much by only giving slightly more ki and your not increasing the subclasses power above what it is. your just allowing more use of it. Which is actually a very big difference in how people play.
Thank you, Fateless. I haven’t had a chance to play a monk, let alone 4 elements monk, and never would have understood their value if you hadn’t broken it down so well. I would have been like many others, presumably, that just read all the complaints and skipped right over it.
I’ve had my own thoughts on 4 elements monks in other threads and still wish they would have spent more time with elemental disciplines that weren’t just casting spells, but more unique abilities like Fangs of the fire snake and Water whip.
the new draconic UA seems to have more elemental spells, if you want to go that route.
In the end I would be happy if there were more elemental disciplines and you learn more of them, for versatility.
Edit: this might be a dumb question but with ED’s like Water Whip, it says it does 3d10 + 1d10 for each additional Ki point you spend. I assume you state how many points you are spending up front? Is there a limit like there is for up casting ED spells? Or can you just dump all your Ki to try and take out the BBEG quickly?
Elemental Disciplines all are forced to follow the max ki expenditure chart that is part of the Elemental Discipline feature. But the PHB doesn't make that entirely clear on it's own. To the point that some argue that by RaW it doesn't actually apply. Which if people want to play that way more power to them in the end.
Though realistically even if you do play that way it can be mitigated or blocked by DM's that wish to in various ways including just causing bludgeoning damage to pop up for various reasons or just plain having good dex saves which automatically halves the damage and blocks the pull. Playing it as uncapped really has the same drawbacks as the capstone ability of Long Death. Yes it's powerful but it's even more costly than even Elemental Disciplines are usually considered being. So it really ends up working against you in the long run.
But yes. You would spend your Ki up front. Because you would roll your damage first. Then the target of it would save. It's the same order of operations as any other power or spell works.
I do concede that 4 elements monk can cast what few spells they know more often then the 1/3 casters, but there are still some issues I have with it.
1) I dislike that the only "cantrip-like" ability 4 elements gets is effectively prestidigitation. Its useful sure, but not something you can fall back on to feel like a master of the elements when you run out of ki between short rests. I would like some sort of damaging elemental ability that doesn't cost ki (even if it is only as powerful or less powerful than a cantrip)
2) The number of spells they know is lacking. Sure, they can cast the ones they do know super often, but without a wide array to choose from it makes you less versatile compared to the 1/3 casters.
3) The spells they get should not be the only subclass features this subclass gets.
For eldritch knight, even if we ignore the abilities that allow it to attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip or spell (something 4 elements can now do as well thanks to Tashas), they still get all of the following things in addition to spells to cast: the ability to summon their weapon from anywhere on the same plane of existence, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells by hitting an enemy (very good for a Gish), and the ability to teleport when they action surge.
For arcane trickster, along with all the spells they learn and spell slots they get they can do the following: use mage hand in new and interesting ways to interact with the environment, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells for creatures you are hidden from, the ability to use mage hand to effectively give yourself the Help action on an attack (plays well with the rogue's base features), the ability to counterspell a creature and temporarily learn that spell for yourself.
Giving the monk spells to cast and slowly increasing how often they can cast them is great, but the subclass feels lackluster when the only thing you get at your key subclass levels is one new spell known. Learning more spells and getting more slots to cast them are just things the 1/3 caster classes get passively along with all that other stuff. The four elements subclass should give the player more features that either play into their base monk class or play off of their unique elemental casting.
I'm gonna address some of these things here. I'll try to stick to your order.
1) They don't need cantrip backup like full spell casters do. Cantrip backup is a waste for the monk. This makes sense on things like wizards and sorcerers and the like. But Monks are the original Meme Lords. People Joke about some big brawny Barbarian or Warrior Type thinking themselves a wizard and casting "FIST" spells. But the Monk actually does this and has been doing it for a long time. They did it in older editions when they had a much more Healer side to them. And they are doing it now with 4 elements Monk. Their Cantrip when they run out of elemental spells is 3 and 4 blows to the face of their enemies. And they are naturally rather physically fit individuals doing it. They actually live the Meme that others joke about and they can make those "FIST" spells do extra nasty things when they do it. There's also the advantage that their fists are generally a lot more useful than most if not all of the usual suggestions to step in for cantrips. Shape Water is just as much fluff and RP flavor as Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy and Elemental Attunement. Poeple love it because it's another one that DM's usually let do far more than it actually does. Same with things like Gust of Wind and Mold Earth. The reality is these cantrips are rarely used and they are almost always out of combat and/or stretched beyond their means. But they are familiar and still un-needed. But mostly lousy replacements for Elemental Attunement with the same drawbacks. If people could they'd just want the ability to be able to throw them away and replace them just like most do with Elemental Attunement itself and they'd be annoyed if they couldn't or if Produce Flame wasn't Firebolt instead even though firebolt actually does less and it's only advantages are range and a bit more damage.
2) The number that they know is kind of lacking. This is something that basically all of us agree upon. This is why I have suggested more than once in this thread that they gain 2 per Feature level rather than one. Many people will look at the number of 8 and go "that still seems small." But it really isn't small. The most that any 1/2 or 1/3 caster is still less than half that more. And most of them are only about 50% more than that. But they still don't get all the advantages to casting those few spells that 4 elements has. 8 is actually a good number and can give you a broad variety.
3)Most of those Class Features are Ribbon Features Or technically useless. you bring this list of all the other things that Say the EK or the AT can do extra. But the 4 Elements Monk is getting these types of things too.
EK needs to be able to summon his weapon but 4 elements doesn't. You cannot take a 4 elements Monks Weapons or even his Magic away from him. It's impossible. This means the EK's ability to summon his weapon is pointless to them. They already have it and better just built into the shere fact of what they are. This is just another one of those features that is given to them to try and facilitate the lie that They are blending magic with their martial prowess. It's barely used except in niche situations and it means nothing to the 4 elements monk.
The Same holds true for Casting a Cantrip and then getting to make a bonus action attack. Or it's upgrades the EK gets. These are the powers that I'm talking about that are entirely there to pretend their power is blended with their Marital Prowess but Most of them suck. most of these do not get past the Cantrip Stage. The EK is the only one that gets past it and that's only at high levels. Tasha's helps the monk in the form of being able to make Attacks but that's it. The Truth is the Monk could already ALWAYS blend their monk with their Spell Casting. They were always able to throw in things like step of the wind, Patient defense, Or a number of other powers in by default without the need of a Subclass Feature and do it better. People blind themselves to the narrow capacity that "Oh I can't make another attack with this spell" but that is hardly all encompassing in any way when it comes to the Monk.
The Only special Feature that EK's actually get out of the whole thing that in any way actually makes it stand out is the ability to Teleport and the Ability to finally make an Attack and Cast a full on spell instead of a cantrip and pretend that's good enough. Those are it. And those are only gotten in the top tiers of play. Most aren't going to ever see them. But the EK is seen as good because of ribbon abilities and necessities to pretend they have blended two classes to Keep people from just saying they are garbage and multiclasses are better. Most of thise stuff is smoke and requirements. It's not actual special features. They have to have all these things where the Monks don't actually need anything more than the Elemental Disciplines. They get all of the rest of this stuff without actually having to write it down and state it with Tasha's putting the final nail in the coffin for the only thing that was missing.
AT's have this very same problem. Their Mage hand, even invisible, is just another Trick. it can't significantly do more than mage hand can itself. People generally give it more power than it has. It's ability to steal is really poor. It doesn't turn anything it's carrying invisible. It's actually more suspicious than if you could see the mage hand because things are just floating aruond on their own. It's only actual real useful ability is the ability to pick locks at a distance. This allows the Rogue to remain stealthed but get that door lock picked rather than spending 1 or more rounds potentially out in the open for anybody to see while you try to get that lock picked. But this is the ability about it that is actually ignored the most and it's the only thing a normal mage hand can't do. You could argue the distraction ability is something that can't be done either. But it's juts another ribbon ability, eats up your action economy which rogues can do so much more with their BA's. and it's just a little over blown because there are so many other ways to do things like that. It's really not special and barely a feature.
And As for the Stealing of Spells. It seems like a great thing but it's niche. But it also assumes a lot of things. It's single use for starters. And against plenty of enemies there is rarely just one spell they rely on so much that taking that spell at level 17 is going to cripple them in some ways. the 8 hour time period doesn't usually matter because if they escape they are usually going to be gone longer than that and if they dont' escape then they are likely dead so it doesn't matter for anybody but the rogue. It also demands it be a spell of 4th level (at level 19) or lower...gotten at level 17... The spells your going to really want to steal are above that level. And it's got to be a spell that targets you in some way. Which means no stealing most teleports or protection spells or the like that might actually be useful to block. Overall this is an ability that sounds great in concept but it's basically garbage tier when you get it. It's hard to find times where your actually going to get to use this. You might steal fireball but that's probably redundant because you probably took it as one of your only out of school spells. So I kind of have to laugh when people bring up this ability as anything actually special. It's really not.
So in short. Most of these things are not extra abilities that they are getting outside of spell casting. These things are either requirements or mostly pointless and either need rewritten or might as well not exist. They have them to do what the Monk is already doing. And considering they came out in the same book as the 4 elements Monk. We can't be sure that part of the reason they gained part of these abilities wasn't because they made the 4 elements and then realized all the stuff it was doing that EK's and AT's weren't and then tried to make things like them more synergistic Gish's with these abilities to somewhat immitate what the Monk was doing. The Rogue at least had the advantage over the EK that often spell casting would not stop cunning action from working. Which is slightly better for no cost but one of the ways that monk and spell casting blended together already.
I can tell you from experience that just gaining Disciplines is not as lack luster as your percieving it. It's really all you need to gain. That's why one of my biggest advocations for a change is to allow 8 disciplines instead of the 5 they get. It's a big upshift in the variability and adaptability that you give to the 4 elements monk by granting them more of these abilities. But they really don't need other features on top of them. Particularly if you give them more abilities like water Whip, Unbroken Air, Fangs of the Fire Snake, and the like because in reality these disciplines on something like the EK or the AT or any other subclass in the game would be class features that would be all you would get at that level with nothing else that you would get and no other alternatives. Giving them more of these actually makes them more superior without things that aren't elemental disciplines than pretty much anything any other gish Subclass is doing. The Other Gishes need all those abilities to keep up with 4 Elements for the most part. And need something like Teleporting or the piss poor ability to steal spells to make them unique.
Unfortunately I don’t see WotC making any official changes to 4E monk in this edition. It will have to be up to the player and DM tweaking to fit their table.
Maybe a 4E Only feat could be home brewed to confer extra Ki points and an extra ED, kind of like meta magic adept or eldritch adept.
also, I take your point comparing 4E monks to 1/3 caster. But how do you think they compare to other monk subclasses?
I do concede that 4 elements monk can cast what few spells they know more often then the 1/3 casters, but there are still some issues I have with it.
1) I dislike that the only "cantrip-like" ability 4 elements gets is effectively prestidigitation. Its useful sure, but not something you can fall back on to feel like a master of the elements when you run out of ki between short rests. I would like some sort of damaging elemental ability that doesn't cost ki (even if it is only as powerful or less powerful than a cantrip)
2) The number of spells they know is lacking. Sure, they can cast the ones they do know super often, but without a wide array to choose from it makes you less versatile compared to the 1/3 casters.
3) The spells they get should not be the only subclass features this subclass gets.
For eldritch knight, even if we ignore the abilities that allow it to attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip or spell (something 4 elements can now do as well thanks to Tashas), they still get all of the following things in addition to spells to cast: the ability to summon their weapon from anywhere on the same plane of existence, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells by hitting an enemy (very good for a Gish), and the ability to teleport when they action surge.
For arcane trickster, along with all the spells they learn and spell slots they get they can do the following: use mage hand in new and interesting ways to interact with the environment, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells for creatures you are hidden from, the ability to use mage hand to effectively give yourself the Help action on an attack (plays well with the rogue's base features), the ability to counterspell a creature and temporarily learn that spell for yourself.
Giving the monk spells to cast and slowly increasing how often they can cast them is great, but the subclass feels lackluster when the only thing you get at your key subclass levels is one new spell known. Learning more spells and getting more slots to cast them are just things the 1/3 caster classes get passively along with all that other stuff. The four elements subclass should give the player more features that either play into their base monk class or play off of their unique elemental casting.
I'm gonna address some of these things here. I'll try to stick to your order.
1) They don't need cantrip backup like full spell casters do. Cantrip backup is a waste for the monk. This makes sense on things like wizards and sorcerers and the like. But Monks are the original Meme Lords. People Joke about some big brawny Barbarian or Warrior Type thinking themselves a wizard and casting "FIST" spells. But the Monk actually does this and has been doing it for a long time. They did it in older editions when they had a much more Healer side to them. And they are doing it now with 4 elements Monk. Their Cantrip when they run out of elemental spells is 3 and 4 blows to the face of their enemies. And they are naturally rather physically fit individuals doing it. They actually live the Meme that others joke about and they can make those "FIST" spells do extra nasty things when they do it. There's also the advantage that their fists are generally a lot more useful than most if not all of the usual suggestions to step in for cantrips. Shape Water is just as much fluff and RP flavor as Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy and Elemental Attunement. Poeple love it because it's another one that DM's usually let do far more than it actually does. Same with things like Gust of Wind and Mold Earth. The reality is these cantrips are rarely used and they are almost always out of combat and/or stretched beyond their means. But they are familiar and still un-needed. But mostly lousy replacements for Elemental Attunement with the same drawbacks. If people could they'd just want the ability to be able to throw them away and replace them just like most do with Elemental Attunement itself and they'd be annoyed if they couldn't or if Produce Flame wasn't Firebolt instead even though firebolt actually does less and it's only advantages are range and a bit more damage.
2) The number that they know is kind of lacking. This is something that basically all of us agree upon. This is why I have suggested more than once in this thread that they gain 2 per Feature level rather than one. Many people will look at the number of 8 and go "that still seems small." But it really isn't small. The most that any 1/2 or 1/3 caster is still less than half that more. And most of them are only about 50% more than that. But they still don't get all the advantages to casting those few spells that 4 elements has. 8 is actually a good number and can give you a broad variety.
3)Most of those Class Features are Ribbon Features Or technically useless. you bring this list of all the other things that Say the EK or the AT can do extra. But the 4 Elements Monk is getting these types of things too.
EK needs to be able to summon his weapon but 4 elements doesn't. You cannot take a 4 elements Monks Weapons or even his Magic away from him. It's impossible. This means the EK's ability to summon his weapon is pointless to them. They already have it and better just built into the shere fact of what they are. This is just another one of those features that is given to them to try and facilitate the lie that They are blending magic with their martial prowess. It's barely used except in niche situations and it means nothing to the 4 elements monk.
The Same holds true for Casting a Cantrip and then getting to make a bonus action attack. Or it's upgrades the EK gets. These are the powers that I'm talking about that are entirely there to pretend their power is blended with their Marital Prowess but Most of them suck. most of these do not get past the Cantrip Stage. The EK is the only one that gets past it and that's only at high levels. Tasha's helps the monk in the form of being able to make Attacks but that's it. The Truth is the Monk could already ALWAYS blend their monk with their Spell Casting. They were always able to throw in things like step of the wind, Patient defense, Or a number of other powers in by default without the need of a Subclass Feature and do it better. People blind themselves to the narrow capacity that "Oh I can't make another attack with this spell" but that is hardly all encompassing in any way when it comes to the Monk.
The Only special Feature that EK's actually get out of the whole thing that in any way actually makes it stand out is the ability to Teleport and the Ability to finally make an Attack and Cast a full on spell instead of a cantrip and pretend that's good enough. Those are it. And those are only gotten in the top tiers of play. Most aren't going to ever see them. But the EK is seen as good because of ribbon abilities and necessities to pretend they have blended two classes to Keep people from just saying they are garbage and multiclasses are better. Most of thise stuff is smoke and requirements. It's not actual special features. They have to have all these things where the Monks don't actually need anything more than the Elemental Disciplines. They get all of the rest of this stuff without actually having to write it down and state it with Tasha's putting the final nail in the coffin for the only thing that was missing.
AT's have this very same problem. Their Mage hand, even invisible, is just another Trick. it can't significantly do more than mage hand can itself. People generally give it more power than it has. It's ability to steal is really poor. It doesn't turn anything it's carrying invisible. It's actually more suspicious than if you could see the mage hand because things are just floating aruond on their own. It's only actual real useful ability is the ability to pick locks at a distance. This allows the Rogue to remain stealthed but get that door lock picked rather than spending 1 or more rounds potentially out in the open for anybody to see while you try to get that lock picked. But this is the ability about it that is actually ignored the most and it's the only thing a normal mage hand can't do. You could argue the distraction ability is something that can't be done either. But it's juts another ribbon ability, eats up your action economy which rogues can do so much more with their BA's. and it's just a little over blown because there are so many other ways to do things like that. It's really not special and barely a feature.
And As for the Stealing of Spells. It seems like a great thing but it's niche. But it also assumes a lot of things. It's single use for starters. And against plenty of enemies there is rarely just one spell they rely on so much that taking that spell at level 17 is going to cripple them in some ways. the 8 hour time period doesn't usually matter because if they escape they are usually going to be gone longer than that and if they dont' escape then they are likely dead so it doesn't matter for anybody but the rogue. It also demands it be a spell of 4th level (at level 19) or lower...gotten at level 17... The spells your going to really want to steal are above that level. And it's got to be a spell that targets you in some way. Which means no stealing most teleports or protection spells or the like that might actually be useful to block. Overall this is an ability that sounds great in concept but it's basically garbage tier when you get it. It's hard to find times where your actually going to get to use this. You might steal fireball but that's probably redundant because you probably took it as one of your only out of school spells. So I kind of have to laugh when people bring up this ability as anything actually special. It's really not.
So in short. Most of these things are not extra abilities that they are getting outside of spell casting. These things are either requirements or mostly pointless and either need rewritten or might as well not exist. They have them to do what the Monk is already doing. And considering they came out in the same book as the 4 elements Monk. We can't be sure that part of the reason they gained part of these abilities wasn't because they made the 4 elements and then realized all the stuff it was doing that EK's and AT's weren't and then tried to make things like them more synergistic Gish's with these abilities to somewhat immitate what the Monk was doing. The Rogue at least had the advantage over the EK that often spell casting would not stop cunning action from working. Which is slightly better for no cost but one of the ways that monk and spell casting blended together already.
I can tell you from experience that just gaining Disciplines is not as lack luster as your percieving it. It's really all you need to gain. That's why one of my biggest advocations for a change is to allow 8 disciplines instead of the 5 they get. It's a big upshift in the variability and adaptability that you give to the 4 elements monk by granting them more of these abilities. But they really don't need other features on top of them. Particularly if you give them more abilities like water Whip, Unbroken Air, Fangs of the Fire Snake, and the like because in reality these disciplines on something like the EK or the AT or any other subclass in the game would be class features that would be all you would get at that level with nothing else that you would get and no other alternatives. Giving them more of these actually makes them more superior without things that aren't elemental disciplines than pretty much anything any other gish Subclass is doing. The Other Gishes need all those abilities to keep up with 4 Elements for the most part. And need something like Teleporting or the piss poor ability to steal spells to make them unique.
All in all, I am going to have to hard disagree that the EK and AT other abilities are just "ribbon abilities" or useless
Summoning a weapon as a bonus action: Stuck in jail with your weapons taken away? Boom. You have it back. Are you forced to drop your weapon? Don't have to spend an action to pick it up off the ground. Going into peaceful negotiations and have to check your weapons at the castle door? Feel free to call it back when things get dicey. For a martial class, having a d10, d12, or 2d6 weapon does make being able to have that weapon at all times very useful to their Gish damage. Its great that monks cant have their unarmed stuff taken away, but their unarmed damage isn't comparable to a fighter with strong powers.
Bonus action attack after cantrip/spell: This is still super good. A cantrip (especially the blade ones) are generally going to be better damage than a single weapon attack. It is also worth remembering that pre-Tasha's, the Four Elements monk couldnt use an elemental discipline and then also make a weapon attack. Neither could the original Bladesinger work its spells into its attack action in SCAG. The EK was the only gish that could do something like that. I have a player in my campaign using an EK and it works super well for them. Not the top choice all the time when they have three attacks they could make, but it still finds room to be useful with the right cantrip in the right spot.
Special Mage Hand: So, the stealing aspect could be situational, but it is still more than other creatures can do with the Mage Hand cantrip. On top of that, the more important aspect is you can disarm traps from a distance. So with this ability there is no risk to you to try and disarm or unlock items. Not to mention, you can use the hand as a bonus action.
Spell Thief: I would argue that this is not situational. Many high level campaigns will rely on spellcaster monsters to challenge the party. Spell thief does three big things. 1. It lets you effectively counterspell the creature. 2. It lets you learn and use the spell for yourself. 3. Probably most importantly, it blocks the target from casting the spell again for 8 hours. BBEG try to use Power Word Kill? Nope, it cant. Also now you can. Also now it cant use that spell for the remainder of this encounter or really any other ambush you pull today.
None of these abilities are useless. Will you use them all the time in combat? No, probably not. But thats also what adds to both these subclass' versatility. They are given actual magical abilities that are useful both in combat and outside of it. They can be used in amazing ways by clever players
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Unfortunately I don’t see WotC making any official changes to 4E monk in this edition. It will have to be up to the player and DM tweaking to fit their table.
Maybe a 4E Only feat could be home brewed to confer extra Ki points and an extra ED, kind of like meta magic adept or eldritch adept.
also, I take your point comparing 4E monks to 1/3 caster. But how do you think they compare to other monk subclasses?
From my Experience? With intelligent play and adaptability to a situation. They are a pretty strong monk Subclass. Damage wise if they try they can get pretty close to damage done by something like a Kensei but without the potential for range that the Kensei has. But when you forgo a bit of damage for some of the battlefield control. They are very strong. Butter than just about any other monk Subclass because they can do things like rely on saves as well as their to-hit if they want to and they eventually get some strong things like Wall spells. They have things like Unbroken Air and Water Whip, Hold Person is different but equal really to Stunning Strike and your best served switching back and forth between them dependant on your enemy and the situation.
Something like Shadow Looks so much better at a glance (and often is seen as kind of opposite of 4 elements) because it has so much stuff that is low cost or almost no cost but it has it's own problems And it also has very high costs if you want to do subclass things over monk things at low levels. All of the spells that you get early on also cost 2 ki which means you can basically do nothing else. And almost all of the spells have almost non-combat ability so your actually drained of that ki before even considering using it in combat. But this is deemed acceptable because the spells are considered highly useful. Even though the Shadow Monk can't scale them even if another caster could, their usage is limited, and/or they are niche. But in Actual Practice. I'd say that 4 elements might actually be a bit better than Shadow Monks in combat because they don't care about setups, they can't do as much to cause problems for the party or even themselves to have to use tactics to work around (even if some of those tactics are now long familiar to us like darkness), Or they just plain can get more out of them. And People usually forget that Shadow Monks don't get anything other than these spells at level 3. Even at level 6 there may not be a ki cost but there are plenty of other restrictions to being able to use that power that means it's not always useful. Cloak of Shadows is just a situational invisibility spell that actually takes away from the monk quite a lot to use repeatedly. Opportunist is really the only thing that the Shadow Monk gets that is a real increase of power over anything a base monk has regardless of subclass.
And you can take other subclasses and mostly fit them in various ways to the Shadow Monk. Either they are low cost but they are limited in use. Or they are higher cost but broadly useful in comparison to the base monk power level. Which depending on which criteria your using 4 elements can either be one of the stronger sub classes despite many people just parroting that it's the absolute worse... Or it's middling if your basing it off of non-combat alternatives because something like Shadow offers more in an non-combat way but there are other subclasses that have even less non-combat alternatives in their subclass kits than 4 elements does.
Honestly through usage and what I understand of this subclass and other subclasses. I'd put this one not necessarily as good as but somewhere around Kensei for combat and middle of the pact in non-combat adaptability.
I do concede that 4 elements monk can cast what few spells they know more often then the 1/3 casters, but there are still some issues I have with it.
1) I dislike that the only "cantrip-like" ability 4 elements gets is effectively prestidigitation. Its useful sure, but not something you can fall back on to feel like a master of the elements when you run out of ki between short rests. I would like some sort of damaging elemental ability that doesn't cost ki (even if it is only as powerful or less powerful than a cantrip)
2) The number of spells they know is lacking. Sure, they can cast the ones they do know super often, but without a wide array to choose from it makes you less versatile compared to the 1/3 casters.
3) The spells they get should not be the only subclass features this subclass gets.
For eldritch knight, even if we ignore the abilities that allow it to attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip or spell (something 4 elements can now do as well thanks to Tashas), they still get all of the following things in addition to spells to cast: the ability to summon their weapon from anywhere on the same plane of existence, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells by hitting an enemy (very good for a Gish), and the ability to teleport when they action surge.
For arcane trickster, along with all the spells they learn and spell slots they get they can do the following: use mage hand in new and interesting ways to interact with the environment, the ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws against your spells for creatures you are hidden from, the ability to use mage hand to effectively give yourself the Help action on an attack (plays well with the rogue's base features), the ability to counterspell a creature and temporarily learn that spell for yourself.
Giving the monk spells to cast and slowly increasing how often they can cast them is great, but the subclass feels lackluster when the only thing you get at your key subclass levels is one new spell known. Learning more spells and getting more slots to cast them are just things the 1/3 caster classes get passively along with all that other stuff. The four elements subclass should give the player more features that either play into their base monk class or play off of their unique elemental casting.
I'm gonna address some of these things here. I'll try to stick to your order.
1) They don't need cantrip backup like full spell casters do. Cantrip backup is a waste for the monk. This makes sense on things like wizards and sorcerers and the like. But Monks are the original Meme Lords. People Joke about some big brawny Barbarian or Warrior Type thinking themselves a wizard and casting "FIST" spells. But the Monk actually does this and has been doing it for a long time. They did it in older editions when they had a much more Healer side to them. And they are doing it now with 4 elements Monk. Their Cantrip when they run out of elemental spells is 3 and 4 blows to the face of their enemies. And they are naturally rather physically fit individuals doing it. They actually live the Meme that others joke about and they can make those "FIST" spells do extra nasty things when they do it. There's also the advantage that their fists are generally a lot more useful than most if not all of the usual suggestions to step in for cantrips. Shape Water is just as much fluff and RP flavor as Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy and Elemental Attunement. Poeple love it because it's another one that DM's usually let do far more than it actually does. Same with things like Gust of Wind and Mold Earth. The reality is these cantrips are rarely used and they are almost always out of combat and/or stretched beyond their means. But they are familiar and still un-needed. But mostly lousy replacements for Elemental Attunement with the same drawbacks. If people could they'd just want the ability to be able to throw them away and replace them just like most do with Elemental Attunement itself and they'd be annoyed if they couldn't or if Produce Flame wasn't Firebolt instead even though firebolt actually does less and it's only advantages are range and a bit more damage.
2) The number that they know is kind of lacking. This is something that basically all of us agree upon. This is why I have suggested more than once in this thread that they gain 2 per Feature level rather than one. Many people will look at the number of 8 and go "that still seems small." But it really isn't small. The most that any 1/2 or 1/3 caster is still less than half that more. And most of them are only about 50% more than that. But they still don't get all the advantages to casting those few spells that 4 elements has. 8 is actually a good number and can give you a broad variety.
3)Most of those Class Features are Ribbon Features Or technically useless. you bring this list of all the other things that Say the EK or the AT can do extra. But the 4 Elements Monk is getting these types of things too.
EK needs to be able to summon his weapon but 4 elements doesn't. You cannot take a 4 elements Monks Weapons or even his Magic away from him. It's impossible. This means the EK's ability to summon his weapon is pointless to them. They already have it and better just built into the shere fact of what they are. This is just another one of those features that is given to them to try and facilitate the lie that They are blending magic with their martial prowess. It's barely used except in niche situations and it means nothing to the 4 elements monk.
The Same holds true for Casting a Cantrip and then getting to make a bonus action attack. Or it's upgrades the EK gets. These are the powers that I'm talking about that are entirely there to pretend their power is blended with their Marital Prowess but Most of them suck. most of these do not get past the Cantrip Stage. The EK is the only one that gets past it and that's only at high levels. Tasha's helps the monk in the form of being able to make Attacks but that's it. The Truth is the Monk could already ALWAYS blend their monk with their Spell Casting. They were always able to throw in things like step of the wind, Patient defense, Or a number of other powers in by default without the need of a Subclass Feature and do it better. People blind themselves to the narrow capacity that "Oh I can't make another attack with this spell" but that is hardly all encompassing in any way when it comes to the Monk.
The Only special Feature that EK's actually get out of the whole thing that in any way actually makes it stand out is the ability to Teleport and the Ability to finally make an Attack and Cast a full on spell instead of a cantrip and pretend that's good enough. Those are it. And those are only gotten in the top tiers of play. Most aren't going to ever see them. But the EK is seen as good because of ribbon abilities and necessities to pretend they have blended two classes to Keep people from just saying they are garbage and multiclasses are better. Most of thise stuff is smoke and requirements. It's not actual special features. They have to have all these things where the Monks don't actually need anything more than the Elemental Disciplines. They get all of the rest of this stuff without actually having to write it down and state it with Tasha's putting the final nail in the coffin for the only thing that was missing.
AT's have this very same problem. Their Mage hand, even invisible, is just another Trick. it can't significantly do more than mage hand can itself. People generally give it more power than it has. It's ability to steal is really poor. It doesn't turn anything it's carrying invisible. It's actually more suspicious than if you could see the mage hand because things are just floating aruond on their own. It's only actual real useful ability is the ability to pick locks at a distance. This allows the Rogue to remain stealthed but get that door lock picked rather than spending 1 or more rounds potentially out in the open for anybody to see while you try to get that lock picked. But this is the ability about it that is actually ignored the most and it's the only thing a normal mage hand can't do. You could argue the distraction ability is something that can't be done either. But it's juts another ribbon ability, eats up your action economy which rogues can do so much more with their BA's. and it's just a little over blown because there are so many other ways to do things like that. It's really not special and barely a feature.
And As for the Stealing of Spells. It seems like a great thing but it's niche. But it also assumes a lot of things. It's single use for starters. And against plenty of enemies there is rarely just one spell they rely on so much that taking that spell at level 17 is going to cripple them in some ways. the 8 hour time period doesn't usually matter because if they escape they are usually going to be gone longer than that and if they dont' escape then they are likely dead so it doesn't matter for anybody but the rogue. It also demands it be a spell of 4th level (at level 19) or lower...gotten at level 17... The spells your going to really want to steal are above that level. And it's got to be a spell that targets you in some way. Which means no stealing most teleports or protection spells or the like that might actually be useful to block. Overall this is an ability that sounds great in concept but it's basically garbage tier when you get it. It's hard to find times where your actually going to get to use this. You might steal fireball but that's probably redundant because you probably took it as one of your only out of school spells. So I kind of have to laugh when people bring up this ability as anything actually special. It's really not.
So in short. Most of these things are not extra abilities that they are getting outside of spell casting. These things are either requirements or mostly pointless and either need rewritten or might as well not exist. They have them to do what the Monk is already doing. And considering they came out in the same book as the 4 elements Monk. We can't be sure that part of the reason they gained part of these abilities wasn't because they made the 4 elements and then realized all the stuff it was doing that EK's and AT's weren't and then tried to make things like them more synergistic Gish's with these abilities to somewhat immitate what the Monk was doing. The Rogue at least had the advantage over the EK that often spell casting would not stop cunning action from working. Which is slightly better for no cost but one of the ways that monk and spell casting blended together already.
I can tell you from experience that just gaining Disciplines is not as lack luster as your percieving it. It's really all you need to gain. That's why one of my biggest advocations for a change is to allow 8 disciplines instead of the 5 they get. It's a big upshift in the variability and adaptability that you give to the 4 elements monk by granting them more of these abilities. But they really don't need other features on top of them. Particularly if you give them more abilities like water Whip, Unbroken Air, Fangs of the Fire Snake, and the like because in reality these disciplines on something like the EK or the AT or any other subclass in the game would be class features that would be all you would get at that level with nothing else that you would get and no other alternatives. Giving them more of these actually makes them more superior without things that aren't elemental disciplines than pretty much anything any other gish Subclass is doing. The Other Gishes need all those abilities to keep up with 4 Elements for the most part. And need something like Teleporting or the piss poor ability to steal spells to make them unique.
All in all, I am going to have to hard disagree that the EK and AT other abilities are just "ribbon abilities" or useless
Summoning a weapon as a bonus action: Stuck in jail with your weapons taken away? Boom. You have it back. Are you forced to drop your weapon? Don't have to spend an action to pick it up off the ground. Going into peaceful negotiations and have to check your weapons at the castle door? Feel free to call it back when things get dicey. For a martial class, having a d10, d12, or 2d6 weapon does make being able to have that weapon at all times very useful to their Gish damage. Its great that monks cant have their unarmed stuff taken away, but their unarmed damage isn't comparable to a fighter with strong powers.
Bonus action attack after cantrip/spell: This is still super good. A cantrip (especially the blade ones) are generally going to be better damage than a single weapon attack. It is also worth remembering that pre-Tasha's, the Four Elements monk couldnt use an elemental discipline and then also make a weapon attack. Neither could the original Bladesinger work its spells into its attack action in SCAG. The EK was the only gish that could do something like that. I have a player in my campaign using an EK and it works super well for them. Not the top choice all the time when they have three attacks they could make, but it still finds room to be useful with the right cantrip in the right spot.
Special Mage Hand: So, the stealing aspect could be situational, but it is still more than other creatures can do with the Mage Hand cantrip. On top of that, the more important aspect is you can disarm traps from a distance. So with this ability there is no risk to you to try and disarm or unlock items. Not to mention, you can use the hand as a bonus action.
Spell Thief: I would argue that this is not situational. Many high level campaigns will rely on spellcaster monsters to challenge the party. Spell thief does three big things. 1. It lets you effectively counterspell the creature. 2. It lets you learn and use the spell for yourself. 3. Probably most importantly, it blocks the target from casting the spell again for 8 hours. BBEG try to use Power Word Kill? Nope, it cant. Also now you can. Also now it cant use that spell for the remainder of this encounter or really any other ambush you pull today.
None of these abilities are useless. Will you use them all the time in combat? No, probably not. But thats also what adds to both these subclass' versatility. They are given actual magical abilities that are useful both in combat and outside of it. They can be used in amazing ways by clever players.
Summoning your Weapon is still a ribbon ability. A rogue in your party can usually solve all of those problems for you. Or a mage in your party. Dump them all in a pocket dimension and pull them right back out. Let the rogue sneak into the building or even be invisible and then hand the weapons out once your in side and have need of them. This ability is largely nothing more than convenience. it can't even change the type of weapon like a Warlock Can who does it better unless they are using magical weapons. This is the solution to something that was solved 40 years ago. It's value is over played. It's convenient yes but only in limited story based situations.
That cantrip. No. it's often not better than a single weapon attack. Even if your Using Firebolt. your talking about 4d10 at 17th level. Sounds great on the surface right? It's not. Because that 4d10 on the EK is taking the place of not 1 but 3 weapon attacks. If don't with something that you can add say GWM to? like many fighters like to have and do all the time? Your looking at an average damage of 20 per swing and a max damage 25 without even using a magical weapon. The total average damage of the 4d10 of firebolt? 20 damage. The firebolt has higher max damage at 40. But then the EK has 2 more swings to make up the difference in damage with. If just one of them hits, doesn't have to be both, They've now average damaged as high as Firebolt can ever hope to do. The ability to cantrip and weapon attack is over stated and under thought out and very few ever realize it because they don't bother to do the math and just accept everybodies word for it. This applies to the Blade Singer as well. But the Bladesinger at least has the excuse that it's almost never going to be compared to GWM and it's on a caster primary which makes it marginally more effective than on the EK.
Mage hand. Others can steal with mage hand. People just all assume it's bad because the mage hand can be seen and thus easily caught. But this is not something special to the thieves version of mage hand. The only special traits about it are to pick locks and that the hand itself is invisible so it can approach a theft target more easily, but not necessarily get away with the goods. The distraction. Familiars can do that. Everybody wants familiars on their AT's and stuff like that. It's fluff. It's ribbon. It's so you dont' need the Familiar that your probably going to take anyway and use many many times long before the AT's version comes online.
For Spell Stealing. your talking like somebody that has never used it. But I hate to tell you this. I have. I've tried it a couple times. I've desperately tried to make it work and useful. It's really not when it comes to actually using it. It's something that sounds good on paper that once you take evrything into account is almost completely useless to you. It has a lot of hard limits in how you use it. To the point that your better off doing almost anything else. Including casting your own counterspells which are going to work on all those higher level spells your going to want to block. This is one of the biggest bait and switch garbage tier abilities you will ever come across if you get into top tier play where you can use it. You'll end up using it less than a monk will getting 4 ki back every time they go into battle if they have none.
Edit: I'll even tell you the biggest reason why I found Spell Stealing useless when I was actually playing with it. Your almost never going to run into enemies that are running out of spell slots to be forced to use 3rd or eventually 4th level spells like the party is. They are going to have level 6 to 9 spells to throw at the party for a good dozen turns. By the time you get these kinds of enemies to the point that you can steal a spell in most cases? They are basically dead, your out of spell slots to cast the stolen spell anyway, and it's more about getting the fight done and just hoping they die before your party does.
Another Edit to just clear something up. Spell Stealing for the most part doesn't Work against Power Word Kill. You can only steal spells that you would have the ability to cast. Power Word Kill is never even an option to use Spell Stealing on in regards to stealing it or keeping them from using it. To try to do so you'd have just wasted your spell stealing if the DM doesn't just tell you no in the first place. And they'd have had to have cast Power Word Kill upon you specifically and not say... the barbarian or the fighter in the party that is probably causing them a lot more grief, or that Damned Shape Changing Druid that just doesn't want to keep the damage the enemy is inflicting upon them in their shape changed forms. But it's still not a spell they could have used more than twice at most. So blocking it for 8 hours doesn't really mean a damn. Their Spell casting Modifer is also likely better than your Save DC.
Summoning your Weapon is still a ribbon ability. A rogue in your party can usually solve all of those problems for you. Or a mage in your party. Dump them all in a pocket dimension and pull them right back out. Let the rogue sneak into the building or even be invisible and then hand the weapons out once your in side and have need of them. This ability is largely nothing more than convenience. it can't even change the type of weapon like a Warlock Can who does it better unless they are using magical weapons. This is the solution to something that was solved 40 years ago. It's value is over played. It's convenient yes but only in limited story based situations
That cantrip. No. it's often not better than a single weapon attack. Even if your Using Firebolt. your talking about 4d10 at 17th level. Sounds great on the surface right? It's not. Because that 4d10 on the EK is taking the place of not 1 but 3 weapon attacks. If don't with something that you can add say GWM to? like many fighters like to have and do all the time? Your looking at an average damage of 20 per swing and a max damage 25 without even using a magical weapon. The total average damage of the 4d10 of firebolt? 20 damage. The firebolt has higher max damage at 40. But then the EK has 2 more swings to make up the difference in damage with. If just one of them hits, doesn't have to be both, They've now average damaged as high as Firebolt can ever hope to do. The ability to cantrip and weapon attack is over stated and under thought out and very few ever realize it because they don't bother to do the math and just accept everybodies word for it. This applies to the Blade Singer as well. But the Bladesinger at least has the excuse that it's almost never going to be compared to GWM and it's on a caster primary which makes it marginally more effective than on the EK.
Mage hand. Others can steal with mage hand. People just all assume it's bad because the mage hand can be seen and thus easily caught. But this is not something special to the thieves version of mage hand. The only special traits about it are to pick locks and that the hand itself is invisible so it can approach a theft target more easily, but not necessarily get away with the goods. The distraction. Familiars can do that. Everybody wants familiars on their AT's and stuff like that. It's fluff. It's ribbon. It's so you dont' need the Familiar that your probably going to take anyway and use many many times long before the AT's version comes online.
For Spell Stealing. your talking like somebody that has never used it. But I hate to tell you this. I have. I've tried it a couple times. I've desperately tried to make it work and useful. It's really not when it comes to actually using it. It's something that sounds good on paper that once you take evrything into account is almost completely useless to you. It has a lot of hard limits in how you use it. To the point that your better off doing almost anything else. Including casting your own counterspells which are going to work on all those higher level spells your going to want to block. This is one of the biggest bait and switch garbage tier abilities you will ever come across if you get into top tier play where you can use it. You'll end up using it less than a monk will getting 4 ki back every time they go into battle if they have none.
Edit: I'll even tell you the biggest reason why I found Spell Stealing useless when I was actually playing with it. Your almost never going to run into enemies that are running out of spell slots to be forced to use 3rd or eventually 4th level spells like the party is. They are going to have level 6 to 9 spells to throw at the party for a good dozen turns. By the time you get these kinds of enemies to the point that you can steal a spell in most cases? They are basically dead, your out of spell slots to cast the stolen spell anyway, and it's more about getting the fight done and just hoping they die before your party does.
1) If its useful in some aspect of D&D, it isnt just some useless tie in. To compare it to the Pact Weapon of warlocks, there are also crucial differences. A. You can have two bonded weapons, not just one. B. You cannot be disarmed of your bonded weapon. C. You can summon it as a bonus action (compared to a warlock that has to use its full action to summon their weapon).
2) A cantrip is still better than a single weapon attack. The issue you bring up with it taking up 3 possible attacks isnt a problem until Tier 3 of play. There are still situations where being able to use a cantrip may be more useful than maxing your damage output that round. Also, by highlighting a fighter's reliance on GWM master to have high damage output, you also highlight why being able to summon your weapon and not have it ever disarmed is crucial, as it prevents you from being interrupted from using those hits.
3) No. Everyone cannot steal with mage hand the way an Arcane Trickster can. Mage hand states that you can stow or retrieve items from an open container. RAW a normal caster cannot use Mage Hand to grab an object being carried by another creature
4) Theres one crucial thing that makes Spell Thief better for an Arcane Trickster than counterspell, and that is that it doesn't cost any spell slots to use. Yeah, its not a guaranteed negate, but honestly by 17th level Counterspell wont be either. An arcane trickster could cast counterspell at a maximum of 4th level when spellcasting enemies will be casting spells way above that. So its really just a matter of whether you want the enemy to make a saving throw or if you would rather make an ability check, because you won't be flat canceling spells that often. I would agree the latter is probably the safer bet, but the former also comes with more benefits when it works and you don't have to burn one of your spell slots for the risk
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Summoning your Weapon is still a ribbon ability. A rogue in your party can usually solve all of those problems for you. Or a mage in your party. Dump them all in a pocket dimension and pull them right back out. Let the rogue sneak into the building or even be invisible and then hand the weapons out once your in side and have need of them. This ability is largely nothing more than convenience. it can't even change the type of weapon like a Warlock Can who does it better unless they are using magical weapons. This is the solution to something that was solved 40 years ago. It's value is over played. It's convenient yes but only in limited story based situations
That cantrip. No. it's often not better than a single weapon attack. Even if your Using Firebolt. your talking about 4d10 at 17th level. Sounds great on the surface right? It's not. Because that 4d10 on the EK is taking the place of not 1 but 3 weapon attacks. If don't with something that you can add say GWM to? like many fighters like to have and do all the time? Your looking at an average damage of 20 per swing and a max damage 25 without even using a magical weapon. The total average damage of the 4d10 of firebolt? 20 damage. The firebolt has higher max damage at 40. But then the EK has 2 more swings to make up the difference in damage with. If just one of them hits, doesn't have to be both, They've now average damaged as high as Firebolt can ever hope to do. The ability to cantrip and weapon attack is over stated and under thought out and very few ever realize it because they don't bother to do the math and just accept everybodies word for it. This applies to the Blade Singer as well. But the Bladesinger at least has the excuse that it's almost never going to be compared to GWM and it's on a caster primary which makes it marginally more effective than on the EK.
Mage hand. Others can steal with mage hand. People just all assume it's bad because the mage hand can be seen and thus easily caught. But this is not something special to the thieves version of mage hand. The only special traits about it are to pick locks and that the hand itself is invisible so it can approach a theft target more easily, but not necessarily get away with the goods. The distraction. Familiars can do that. Everybody wants familiars on their AT's and stuff like that. It's fluff. It's ribbon. It's so you dont' need the Familiar that your probably going to take anyway and use many many times long before the AT's version comes online.
For Spell Stealing. your talking like somebody that has never used it. But I hate to tell you this. I have. I've tried it a couple times. I've desperately tried to make it work and useful. It's really not when it comes to actually using it. It's something that sounds good on paper that once you take evrything into account is almost completely useless to you. It has a lot of hard limits in how you use it. To the point that your better off doing almost anything else. Including casting your own counterspells which are going to work on all those higher level spells your going to want to block. This is one of the biggest bait and switch garbage tier abilities you will ever come across if you get into top tier play where you can use it. You'll end up using it less than a monk will getting 4 ki back every time they go into battle if they have none.
Edit: I'll even tell you the biggest reason why I found Spell Stealing useless when I was actually playing with it. Your almost never going to run into enemies that are running out of spell slots to be forced to use 3rd or eventually 4th level spells like the party is. They are going to have level 6 to 9 spells to throw at the party for a good dozen turns. By the time you get these kinds of enemies to the point that you can steal a spell in most cases? They are basically dead, your out of spell slots to cast the stolen spell anyway, and it's more about getting the fight done and just hoping they die before your party does.
1) If its useful in some aspect of D&D, it isnt just some useless tie in. To compare it to the Pact Weapon of warlocks, there are also crucial differences. A. You can have two bonded weapons, not just one. B. You cannot be disarmed of your bonded weapon. C. You can summon it as a bonus action (compared to a warlock that has to use its full action to summon their weapon).
2) A cantrip is still better than a single weapon attack. The issue you bring up with it taking up 3 possible attacks isnt a problem until Tier 3 of play. There are still situations where being able to use a cantrip may be more useful than maxing your damage output that round. Also, by highlighting a fighter's reliance on GWM master to have high damage output, you also highlight why being able to summon your weapon and not have it ever disarmed is crucial, as it prevents you from being interrupted from using those hits.
3) No. Everyone cannot steal with mage hand the way an Arcane Trickster can. Mage hand states that you can stow or retrieve items from an open container. RAW a normal caster cannot use Mage Hand to grab an object being carried by another creature
4) Theres one crucial thing that makes Spell Thief better for an Arcane Trickster than counterspell, and that is that it doesn't cost any spell slots to use. Yeah, its not a guaranteed negate, but honestly by 17th level Counterspell wont be either. An arcane trickster could cast counterspell at a maximum of 4th level when spellcasting enemies will be casting spells way above that. So its really just a matter of whether you want the enemy to make a saving throw or if you would rather make an ability check, because you won't be flat canceling spells that often. I would agree the latter is probably the safer bet, but the former also comes with more benefits when it works and you don't have to burn one of your spell slots for the risk
Damage Cantrips are weird for EK....
They are bad for 3-6 but then at 7 make a lot of sense when you can Cantrip + Attack as a BA....then get bad again at 11th.
If you are a STR EK then you might find more value in them as a ranged option but if you are a DEX EK and use ranged weapons....you are almost always better off just using your weapon.
MC has always been my go to for EK anyway as the base class is too boring for me.
As for 4 elements...I do not think the current iteration does much to encourage you to use your spells. The cost is too high and the trade off from just attacking is minimal as you never really get high damage options.
Fist and Whip are good....but its less damage than if you just flurry of blows and a stun is a better effect overall IMO. If they affected more than one creature I could see them being of use but pushing/pulling is generally less useful than Stunning and at the same or less Ki cost.
One of the things I absolutely love about this subclass is just how varied it can be. If you want to emphasize Dexterity for attacking and initiative, then your options will be a bit more limited. Still, there's some solid control, defense, mobility, offense, and utility. And with the potential for 5/6 of these by 17th-level (if you trade out Elemental Attunement), it shouldn't be hard to see just how powerful a monk can be.
But if you'd rather focus on a higher Wisdom score, to raise your Saving Throws for your elemental spells and Stunning Strike, then you have plenty of other good options. Arguably, too many good options. You can only ever have half of these from 17th-level onward. It's overwhelmingly AoE, and if you want to be a blaster you can cast these more times per day than pretty much any other spellcaster.
When you look at how they can spend their ki points on spells, the scaling is better than 1/3 casters and competitive with 1/2 casters. They just don't have as many spells; which should probably be viewed more like tricks. Honestly, I think they have more in common warlocks. And, if you like playing warlocks, I think Way of the Four Elements is right up your alley.
P.S.
I added which saving throws were targeted by each of the elemental disciplines from the second list. It's worth knowing not just that you can target saving throws, but also which ones so you can cover as many bases at once. Clench of the North Wind is all but guaranteed; which is a little disappointing. But that still leaves two possible choices for Strength, three possible choices to target Constitution, and four possible choices for Dexterity. That's 24 different possible combinations, assuming they keep Elemental Attunement and don't overlap on which saving throws are targeted.
Good point with the utility spells...that's one I do have a tendency to overlook.
Of those Fly is the one that really stands out as super helpful as you can fly to stun something in the air and watch it drop like a rock!
The others seem interesting but unless you are the only caster (albeit a slightly reduced 1/3 caster) then the others will be able to do them more effectively.
Sans Fly and Stoneskin the others dont gel too well with Monk much.
One other aspect of choosing Elemental Disciplines worth considering is how many require Strength or Dexterity saves. If you choose those, then you can do 2 turn combos with Stunning Strike to stun them on the first turn and then hit them with an Elemental Discipline on the second turn. Since they are stunned, they automatically fail their saving throws. It takes an extra turn to setup and still requires at least 1 ki point spent on Stunning Strike, but it guarantees you get the most bang for your buck with the ki points spent on the spell.
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One other aspect of choosing Elemental Disciplines worth considering is how many require Strength or Dexterity saves. If you choose those, then you can do 2 turn combos with Stunning Strike to stun them on the first turn and then hit them with an Elemental Discipline on the second turn. Since they are stunned, they automatically fail their saving throws. It takes an extra turn to setup and still requires at least 1 ki point spent on Stunning Strike, but it guarantees you get the most bang for your buck with the ki points spent on the spell.
That's an excellent point, and I edited my previous post to include just which saves are targeted. It's a pretty healthy spread.
Trying to dismiss every single feature of EK and AT as not really worth anything just gives me the impression that this whole argument is being done in bad faith.
Making every single subclass feature of the monk just "choose one spell" when every single other spellcasting class and subclass gets (way more) spells independent of features is objectively bad 5e design.
Furthermore, causing these spells to dip form the same pool that your base class features rely on is again objectively bad. Not only do you not get subclass features, you get fewer uses of your main class features too. All for the dubious benefit of casting from a completely unprecedented abysmally small pool of spells - let's be honest here, 4 is being thrown around but it's more like 2 since the majority of games stay in the first 10 levels. Two. Spells.
You can compare their spellcasting ability to warlocks, but the thing about warlocks is that they are absolutely swimming in class features. They have so much going on. This does not. You can cite how cool the base monk features are, but that base didn't stop all the other monk subclasses from giving you way more goodies.
It's really just not good. This is the massive consensus despite a few people who bafflingly continue to defend it (and even those unfailingly end up admitting it could stand some fixes even though it's "just as good as other subclasses").
I'm not trying to be argumentative and I don't really want to go through this again. I'm only commenting because a new player might see this without seeing all the other threads about it and think that this is a reasonable argument where both sides have good points. If that's you just know that Kaboom is right that the overwhelming consensus of the community is that this subclass is among the worst 5e has to offer. The fact that it is such an awesome archetype just makes it hurt all the more.
To be slightly more constructive, I'll add the features I'm considering on my rework of the subclass. These are in addition to a list of 34 possible disciples (8 of each element plus absorb elements and a variation of elemental weapon) of which you ultimately gain 10, plus the elemental control cantrips. Disciplines that correspond to level 4 or 5 spells are considered Master Disciplines and you can only use one MD/day.
3 - Elemental Stance
When you spend an action to use an Elemental Discipline associated with earth or water, you can use the Patient Defense bonus action on that turn without spending a ki point.
When you spend an action to use an Elemental Discipline associated with fire or air, you can use the Step of the Wind bonus action on that turn without spending a ki point.
3 - Elemental Understanding
Whenever you make an Intelligence check concerning elemental creatures or effects, you gain a bonus to the check equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of +1).
6 - Give and Take
Immediately after you use an action to spend 3 or more ki points on an Elemental Discipline, you can use your bonus action to reabsorb the dissipating elemental energy, regaining one ki point. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
11 - Divert elements
When an ally within 30 feet makes a saving throw against an area effect that deals fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage, you can use a Reaction to grant a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).
17 - Elemental Transcendance
When you cast an Elemental Discipline that deals damage, you can spend two additional ki points to change the damage type to fire, cold, lightning, thunder, or bludgeoning. Alternately, you can spend four additional ki points to change the damage type to force. Points spent on this feature do not count against your maximum limit of six ki points per Elemental Discipline.
"Furthermore, causing these spells to dip form the same pool that your base class features rely on is again objectively bad. Not only do you not get subclass features, you get fewer uses of your main class features too. All for the dubious benefit of casting from a completely unprecedented abysmally small pool of spells - let's be honest here, 4 is being thrown around but it's more like 2 since the majority of games stay in the first 10 levels. Two. Spells."
Oh yeah I fully agree and thats why I advocate for the Pact Slot system as it at least introduces a secondary pool of resources which Monks desperately need.
Even WotC is dabbling in this with the Dragon Monk getting PB number of uses of its subclass ability per short rest....which is a HUGE improvement to me.
With all due respect, but anyone who uses the phrase "objectively bad" when referencing a creative work doesn't know what they're talking about and should reconsider whether they have anything else to say. Because if they don't they should probably remain silent on the subject.
"Furthermore, causing these spells to dip form the same pool that your base class features rely on is again objectively bad. Not only do you not get subclass features, you get fewer uses of your main class features too. All for the dubious benefit of casting from a completely unprecedented abysmally small pool of spells - let's be honest here, 4 is being thrown around but it's more like 2 since the majority of games stay in the first 10 levels. Two. Spells."
Oh yeah I fully agree and thats why I advocate for the Pact Slot system as it at least introduces a secondary pool of resources which Monks desperately need.
Even WotC is dabbling in this with the Dragon Monk getting PB number of uses of its subclass ability per short rest....which is a HUGE improvement to me.
Monks do not desperately need a second resource. This is built from the idea along with the costs being too high of people that have just looked at it and never really played it. us peope that have played it have been telling you the costs aren't exactly what they seem. That people have not thought them out when making this claim and they only need minor adjustments. Half of this thread talks about this very fact. As well as the fact thta it could use more choices.
People want the second Resource because that's familiar to them so it seems like it fixes things when it really doesn't. It just creates a different issue for the 4 elements monk. It's just a familiar issue that almost everybody has reached the point of "It is what it is and it can't be changed." To the point of rejecting a system that actually changes it as bad.
Trying to dismiss every single feature of EK and AT as not really worth anything just gives me the impression that this whole argument is being done in bad faith.
Making every single subclass feature of the monk just "choose one spell" when every single other spellcasting class and subclass gets (way more) spells independent of features is objectively bad 5e design.
Furthermore, causing these spells to dip form the same pool that your base class features rely on is again objectively bad. Not only do you not get subclass features, you get fewer uses of your main class features too. All for the dubious benefit of casting from a completely unprecedented abysmally small pool of spells - let's be honest here, 4 is being thrown around but it's more like 2 since the majority of games stay in the first 10 levels. Two. Spells.
You can compare their spellcasting ability to warlocks, but the thing about warlocks is that they are absolutely swimming in class features. They have so much going on. This does not. You can cite how cool the base monk features are, but that base didn't stop all the other monk subclasses from giving you way more goodies.
It's really just not good. This is the massive consensus despite a few people who bafflingly continue to defend it (and even those unfailingly end up admitting it could stand some fixes even though it's "just as good as other subclasses").
I'm not trying to be argumentative and I don't really want to go through this again. I'm only commenting because a new player might see this without seeing all the other threads about it and think that this is a reasonable argument where both sides have good points. If that's you just know that Kaboom is right that the overwhelming consensus of the community is that this subclass is among the worst 5e has to offer. The fact that it is such an awesome archetype just makes it hurt all the more.
You may not be trying to be argumentative but you are showing you haven't read a lot of what I've said.
For Starters, I've said that these things are required for those classes to work and even pretend they are blending their Magic User Sides with their Martial Sides. The SubClasses do not work without these abilities. They are not extra. Take them away and almost nobody is going to pick them over just multiclassing. The 4 elements monk does not need more just to make it work in any way shape or form. it's the only one that doesn't. It works without making exceptions that only apply to them or giving them Abilities that are going to be good for the 5% of the time that you use them so everybody is going to argue in their favor. If you don't believe me then you can easily test this yourself. Find a group and play regular games for a few months, best at medium or higher levels because low levels are missing most of it anyway, and play in a group that has a martial and a caster and play the EK without using any of the EK's subclass abilities like it doesn't have them. your EK is not going to feel all that great to play under those restrictions and your going to wonder why your not just playing a multi-class or just plain a different subclass or class entirely. 4 elements monk on the other hand does not have this problem. This is something that you can do for yourself.
The Way More your all harping on about? It's an illusion. It's an argument based on surface scanning and not real analysis of the situation. Those things that you all think are so much more are various things required by those Subclasses. They Aren't just Extra's that your getting on top of it. An EK is not going to want to cast spells, specially lower level spells at higher levels if they do not have a way to take advantage of their combat prowess. This is one of the reasons that Reaction Spells, BA spells, and Multi-round Buff Spells are often on every list of "the best spells" for the subclass. And the Full spells tend to be the ones that are seen to be the best on their own and worth giving up everything martial for a turn in order to cast rather than how they mix with the subclass. The Spells that they focus on how they mix tend most often are the ones that don't mess up with the action economy of their attack action. And yet there are plenty of people that still disagree with these lists.
On the Matter of Costs and perceptions, I gave several different angles to look at some of these problems about the supposed costs of 4 elements monk to show that it isn't necessarily true from taking the Casting as much as you can route to only casting comparatively, to the point that I actually even pointed out that the Shadow Monk is actually just as effectively cost inefficient before level 6 (and potentially up to more like level 8) to use it's subclass abilities as everybody argues that the 4 elements monk is, and the Shadow Monk is seen by popular opinion as one of the best monk classes in the game above all others and with very few flaws in it's design.
Massive Consensus as you put it is not necessarily right. It's mostly just a bunch of hearsay being parroted around by people who don't know better but believe they got it from somebody that did the actual work and they've deamed an authority in some way but don't question it themselves. Your baffled by people defending it or saying it's not that way because your simply saying "Group think is more important than the truth" We know for a Fact Group think is often not correct and is often based on misunderstood information if not outright lies. We know this to the point that in that same group think there are popular phrases such as "Gossip Travels Faster than the News." and "Outrage spreads farther and faster than the Truth." And many other various sayings that basically all boil down to the same thing. Popular Opinion is not necessarily always right and you should think and ask questions for yourself.
Or if you want a TLDR on Mass Consensus. Just remember that for the longest time Mass Consensus demanded that the world was flat and everything revolved around the earth. To the point that there are people that still believe this even to this day and that all proof to the contrary is just one big conspiracy theory.
Shape water is kind of garbage. It's almost entirely rp flavor only and some of it can actually be wrapped into elemental attunement. And 4 elements monks already have a version of it. They don't need this cantrip in their bag of tricks. Most things that people actually want to do with shape of water is actually very clever but tends to be outside of the bounds of what the spell can do and lies entirely in the realm of the DM allowing you to do it anyway. Much as with Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy.
But even more than that. 4 elements has this gem which can actually serve some of the very same purposes.
Shape the Flowing River.
As an action, you can spend 1 ki point to choose an area of ice or water no larger than 30 feet on a side within 120 feet of you. You can change water to ice within the area and vice versa, and you can reshape ice in the area in any manner you choose. You can raise or lower the ice's elevation, create or fill in a trench, erect or flatten a wall, or form a pillar. The extent of any such changes can't exceed half the area's largest dimension. For example, if you affect a 30-foot square, you can create a pillar up to 15 feet high. raise or lower the square's elevation by up to 15 feet, dig a trench up to 15 feet deep, and so on. You can't shape the ice to trap or injure a creature in the area.
The Functional difference between the two. Is that you don't change the balance of the maximum power that something can reach at any point in the game. You don't turn level 5 casting into suddenly level 6 casting. You don't Allow automatic upcasting which not even full casters can do when they first gain a spell. There is a lot of power and abuse that somebody like me can abuse heavily. Like for example at level 17 with just Hold Person I can potentially shut down at least half of an encounter by my self by forcing Wis saves on a bunch of things that don't have good wis saves for multiple rounds for just 6 ki. And with my naturally high dex and if I've potentially done something like taken Alert I can potentially do this at the start of combat before anything else gets to respond. But even at lower level like say level 6 when I can first get hold of Hold Person. I can cast it just as powerfully as the full Casters can do with it. Shutting down 2 people at the same time. Which just 2 people at level 6 potentially radically alters the power balance between the party and the enemies. But I can do this more times a day than even the full casters can. With their own spells.
Or with the rather lack luster Burning hands which there is not a lot of reason to take and even on full casters is seen as a mediocre spell at best and no reason to ever really upcast. Your basically turning it into a level 2 spell at the point where the spell is still marginally useful. Again as strong as any full caster can do but as a 4 elements monk I can do more times than they can.
I actually tested this kind of fix with a few groups. And while plenty just lower it and don't realize what's going on, we actually were testing these kinds of things, and many of them did not see "Oh I can do more monk stuff now!" which is the aim of lowering the ki cost of the powers anyway. What they were seeing often enough when we really broke it down was that They were still the same cost but they were now more powerful than before. Burning hands was worth taking because it wasn't a lack luster close range 1st level spell. It was worth taking because it was automatically a second level spell without any extra effort from them. And when we tested in the level 11 to 14 range. They weren't casting base level fireballs because they got an extra ki out of things. They were quickly to the point that they were still spending all 4 ki when they could because that meant even more damage basically for free. They weren't seeing it as more cost to spend the 4 ki. it was already 4 ki in their minds even after the lowering of costs, but now with free added power. The only time that the 3 ki cost mattered was when they were one ki short to cast it again. Basically turning the 2 fireballs they could cast per short rest into 3 fireballs they could cast at short rest and 2 of those fireballs were one step better.
What giving them a little extra ki does is it addresses the tightness of the costs that are in place without actually handing over a bunch of free extra power at the same time. yes it can do something like allow somebody to cast 1 more fireball. But not with the added bonus that most of those fireballs are actually stronger than they were. Also with the prices being functionally the same in ki cost. The Core Monk Abilities still look exceedingly low and thus still feel justifiable and much easier to mix in. Your not changing the perceptions or limitations too much by only giving slightly more ki and your not increasing the subclasses power above what it is. your just allowing more use of it. Which is actually a very big difference in how people play.
Elemental Disciplines all are forced to follow the max ki expenditure chart that is part of the Elemental Discipline feature. But the PHB doesn't make that entirely clear on it's own. To the point that some argue that by RaW it doesn't actually apply. Which if people want to play that way more power to them in the end.
Though realistically even if you do play that way it can be mitigated or blocked by DM's that wish to in various ways including just causing bludgeoning damage to pop up for various reasons or just plain having good dex saves which automatically halves the damage and blocks the pull. Playing it as uncapped really has the same drawbacks as the capstone ability of Long Death. Yes it's powerful but it's even more costly than even Elemental Disciplines are usually considered being. So it really ends up working against you in the long run.
But yes. You would spend your Ki up front. Because you would roll your damage first. Then the target of it would save. It's the same order of operations as any other power or spell works.
I'm gonna address some of these things here. I'll try to stick to your order.
1) They don't need cantrip backup like full spell casters do. Cantrip backup is a waste for the monk. This makes sense on things like wizards and sorcerers and the like. But Monks are the original Meme Lords. People Joke about some big brawny Barbarian or Warrior Type thinking themselves a wizard and casting "FIST" spells. But the Monk actually does this and has been doing it for a long time. They did it in older editions when they had a much more Healer side to them. And they are doing it now with 4 elements Monk. Their Cantrip when they run out of elemental spells is 3 and 4 blows to the face of their enemies. And they are naturally rather physically fit individuals doing it. They actually live the Meme that others joke about and they can make those "FIST" spells do extra nasty things when they do it. There's also the advantage that their fists are generally a lot more useful than most if not all of the usual suggestions to step in for cantrips. Shape Water is just as much fluff and RP flavor as Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy and Elemental Attunement. Poeple love it because it's another one that DM's usually let do far more than it actually does. Same with things like Gust of Wind and Mold Earth. The reality is these cantrips are rarely used and they are almost always out of combat and/or stretched beyond their means. But they are familiar and still un-needed. But mostly lousy replacements for Elemental Attunement with the same drawbacks. If people could they'd just want the ability to be able to throw them away and replace them just like most do with Elemental Attunement itself and they'd be annoyed if they couldn't or if Produce Flame wasn't Firebolt instead even though firebolt actually does less and it's only advantages are range and a bit more damage.
2) The number that they know is kind of lacking. This is something that basically all of us agree upon. This is why I have suggested more than once in this thread that they gain 2 per Feature level rather than one. Many people will look at the number of 8 and go "that still seems small." But it really isn't small. The most that any 1/2 or 1/3 caster is still less than half that more. And most of them are only about 50% more than that. But they still don't get all the advantages to casting those few spells that 4 elements has. 8 is actually a good number and can give you a broad variety.
3)Most of those Class Features are Ribbon Features Or technically useless. you bring this list of all the other things that Say the EK or the AT can do extra. But the 4 Elements Monk is getting these types of things too.
EK needs to be able to summon his weapon but 4 elements doesn't. You cannot take a 4 elements Monks Weapons or even his Magic away from him. It's impossible. This means the EK's ability to summon his weapon is pointless to them. They already have it and better just built into the shere fact of what they are. This is just another one of those features that is given to them to try and facilitate the lie that They are blending magic with their martial prowess. It's barely used except in niche situations and it means nothing to the 4 elements monk.
The Same holds true for Casting a Cantrip and then getting to make a bonus action attack. Or it's upgrades the EK gets. These are the powers that I'm talking about that are entirely there to pretend their power is blended with their Marital Prowess but Most of them suck. most of these do not get past the Cantrip Stage. The EK is the only one that gets past it and that's only at high levels. Tasha's helps the monk in the form of being able to make Attacks but that's it. The Truth is the Monk could already ALWAYS blend their monk with their Spell Casting. They were always able to throw in things like step of the wind, Patient defense, Or a number of other powers in by default without the need of a Subclass Feature and do it better. People blind themselves to the narrow capacity that "Oh I can't make another attack with this spell" but that is hardly all encompassing in any way when it comes to the Monk.
The Only special Feature that EK's actually get out of the whole thing that in any way actually makes it stand out is the ability to Teleport and the Ability to finally make an Attack and Cast a full on spell instead of a cantrip and pretend that's good enough. Those are it. And those are only gotten in the top tiers of play. Most aren't going to ever see them. But the EK is seen as good because of ribbon abilities and necessities to pretend they have blended two classes to Keep people from just saying they are garbage and multiclasses are better. Most of thise stuff is smoke and requirements. It's not actual special features. They have to have all these things where the Monks don't actually need anything more than the Elemental Disciplines. They get all of the rest of this stuff without actually having to write it down and state it with Tasha's putting the final nail in the coffin for the only thing that was missing.
AT's have this very same problem. Their Mage hand, even invisible, is just another Trick. it can't significantly do more than mage hand can itself. People generally give it more power than it has. It's ability to steal is really poor. It doesn't turn anything it's carrying invisible. It's actually more suspicious than if you could see the mage hand because things are just floating aruond on their own. It's only actual real useful ability is the ability to pick locks at a distance. This allows the Rogue to remain stealthed but get that door lock picked rather than spending 1 or more rounds potentially out in the open for anybody to see while you try to get that lock picked. But this is the ability about it that is actually ignored the most and it's the only thing a normal mage hand can't do. You could argue the distraction ability is something that can't be done either. But it's juts another ribbon ability, eats up your action economy which rogues can do so much more with their BA's. and it's just a little over blown because there are so many other ways to do things like that. It's really not special and barely a feature.
And As for the Stealing of Spells. It seems like a great thing but it's niche. But it also assumes a lot of things. It's single use for starters. And against plenty of enemies there is rarely just one spell they rely on so much that taking that spell at level 17 is going to cripple them in some ways. the 8 hour time period doesn't usually matter because if they escape they are usually going to be gone longer than that and if they dont' escape then they are likely dead so it doesn't matter for anybody but the rogue. It also demands it be a spell of 4th level (at level 19) or lower...gotten at level 17... The spells your going to really want to steal are above that level. And it's got to be a spell that targets you in some way. Which means no stealing most teleports or protection spells or the like that might actually be useful to block. Overall this is an ability that sounds great in concept but it's basically garbage tier when you get it. It's hard to find times where your actually going to get to use this. You might steal fireball but that's probably redundant because you probably took it as one of your only out of school spells. So I kind of have to laugh when people bring up this ability as anything actually special. It's really not.
So in short. Most of these things are not extra abilities that they are getting outside of spell casting. These things are either requirements or mostly pointless and either need rewritten or might as well not exist. They have them to do what the Monk is already doing. And considering they came out in the same book as the 4 elements Monk. We can't be sure that part of the reason they gained part of these abilities wasn't because they made the 4 elements and then realized all the stuff it was doing that EK's and AT's weren't and then tried to make things like them more synergistic Gish's with these abilities to somewhat immitate what the Monk was doing. The Rogue at least had the advantage over the EK that often spell casting would not stop cunning action from working. Which is slightly better for no cost but one of the ways that monk and spell casting blended together already.
I can tell you from experience that just gaining Disciplines is not as lack luster as your percieving it. It's really all you need to gain. That's why one of my biggest advocations for a change is to allow 8 disciplines instead of the 5 they get. It's a big upshift in the variability and adaptability that you give to the 4 elements monk by granting them more of these abilities. But they really don't need other features on top of them. Particularly if you give them more abilities like water Whip, Unbroken Air, Fangs of the Fire Snake, and the like because in reality these disciplines on something like the EK or the AT or any other subclass in the game would be class features that would be all you would get at that level with nothing else that you would get and no other alternatives. Giving them more of these actually makes them more superior without things that aren't elemental disciplines than pretty much anything any other gish Subclass is doing. The Other Gishes need all those abilities to keep up with 4 Elements for the most part. And need something like Teleporting or the piss poor ability to steal spells to make them unique.
Unfortunately I don’t see WotC making any official changes to 4E monk in this edition. It will have to be up to the player and DM tweaking to fit their table.
Maybe a 4E Only feat could be home brewed to confer extra Ki points and an extra ED, kind of like meta magic adept or eldritch adept.
also, I take your point comparing 4E monks to 1/3 caster. But how do you think they compare to other monk subclasses?
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All in all, I am going to have to hard disagree that the EK and AT other abilities are just "ribbon abilities" or useless
Summoning a weapon as a bonus action: Stuck in jail with your weapons taken away? Boom. You have it back. Are you forced to drop your weapon? Don't have to spend an action to pick it up off the ground. Going into peaceful negotiations and have to check your weapons at the castle door? Feel free to call it back when things get dicey. For a martial class, having a d10, d12, or 2d6 weapon does make being able to have that weapon at all times very useful to their Gish damage. Its great that monks cant have their unarmed stuff taken away, but their unarmed damage isn't comparable to a fighter with strong powers.
Bonus action attack after cantrip/spell: This is still super good. A cantrip (especially the blade ones) are generally going to be better damage than a single weapon attack. It is also worth remembering that pre-Tasha's, the Four Elements monk couldnt use an elemental discipline and then also make a weapon attack. Neither could the original Bladesinger work its spells into its attack action in SCAG. The EK was the only gish that could do something like that. I have a player in my campaign using an EK and it works super well for them. Not the top choice all the time when they have three attacks they could make, but it still finds room to be useful with the right cantrip in the right spot.
Special Mage Hand: So, the stealing aspect could be situational, but it is still more than other creatures can do with the Mage Hand cantrip. On top of that, the more important aspect is you can disarm traps from a distance. So with this ability there is no risk to you to try and disarm or unlock items. Not to mention, you can use the hand as a bonus action.
Spell Thief: I would argue that this is not situational. Many high level campaigns will rely on spellcaster monsters to challenge the party. Spell thief does three big things. 1. It lets you effectively counterspell the creature. 2. It lets you learn and use the spell for yourself. 3. Probably most importantly, it blocks the target from casting the spell again for 8 hours. BBEG try to use Power Word Kill? Nope, it cant. Also now you can. Also now it cant use that spell for the remainder of this encounter or really any other ambush you pull today.
None of these abilities are useless. Will you use them all the time in combat? No, probably not. But thats also what adds to both these subclass' versatility. They are given actual magical abilities that are useful both in combat and outside of it. They can be used in amazing ways by clever players
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From my Experience? With intelligent play and adaptability to a situation. They are a pretty strong monk Subclass. Damage wise if they try they can get pretty close to damage done by something like a Kensei but without the potential for range that the Kensei has. But when you forgo a bit of damage for some of the battlefield control. They are very strong. Butter than just about any other monk Subclass because they can do things like rely on saves as well as their to-hit if they want to and they eventually get some strong things like Wall spells. They have things like Unbroken Air and Water Whip, Hold Person is different but equal really to Stunning Strike and your best served switching back and forth between them dependant on your enemy and the situation.
Something like Shadow Looks so much better at a glance (and often is seen as kind of opposite of 4 elements) because it has so much stuff that is low cost or almost no cost but it has it's own problems And it also has very high costs if you want to do subclass things over monk things at low levels. All of the spells that you get early on also cost 2 ki which means you can basically do nothing else. And almost all of the spells have almost non-combat ability so your actually drained of that ki before even considering using it in combat. But this is deemed acceptable because the spells are considered highly useful. Even though the Shadow Monk can't scale them even if another caster could, their usage is limited, and/or they are niche. But in Actual Practice. I'd say that 4 elements might actually be a bit better than Shadow Monks in combat because they don't care about setups, they can't do as much to cause problems for the party or even themselves to have to use tactics to work around (even if some of those tactics are now long familiar to us like darkness), Or they just plain can get more out of them. And People usually forget that Shadow Monks don't get anything other than these spells at level 3. Even at level 6 there may not be a ki cost but there are plenty of other restrictions to being able to use that power that means it's not always useful. Cloak of Shadows is just a situational invisibility spell that actually takes away from the monk quite a lot to use repeatedly. Opportunist is really the only thing that the Shadow Monk gets that is a real increase of power over anything a base monk has regardless of subclass.
And you can take other subclasses and mostly fit them in various ways to the Shadow Monk. Either they are low cost but they are limited in use. Or they are higher cost but broadly useful in comparison to the base monk power level. Which depending on which criteria your using 4 elements can either be one of the stronger sub classes despite many people just parroting that it's the absolute worse... Or it's middling if your basing it off of non-combat alternatives because something like Shadow offers more in an non-combat way but there are other subclasses that have even less non-combat alternatives in their subclass kits than 4 elements does.
Honestly through usage and what I understand of this subclass and other subclasses. I'd put this one not necessarily as good as but somewhere around Kensei for combat and middle of the pact in non-combat adaptability.
Summoning your Weapon is still a ribbon ability. A rogue in your party can usually solve all of those problems for you. Or a mage in your party. Dump them all in a pocket dimension and pull them right back out. Let the rogue sneak into the building or even be invisible and then hand the weapons out once your in side and have need of them. This ability is largely nothing more than convenience. it can't even change the type of weapon like a Warlock Can who does it better unless they are using magical weapons. This is the solution to something that was solved 40 years ago. It's value is over played. It's convenient yes but only in limited story based situations.
That cantrip. No. it's often not better than a single weapon attack. Even if your Using Firebolt. your talking about 4d10 at 17th level. Sounds great on the surface right? It's not. Because that 4d10 on the EK is taking the place of not 1 but 3 weapon attacks. If don't with something that you can add say GWM to? like many fighters like to have and do all the time? Your looking at an average damage of 20 per swing and a max damage 25 without even using a magical weapon. The total average damage of the 4d10 of firebolt? 20 damage. The firebolt has higher max damage at 40. But then the EK has 2 more swings to make up the difference in damage with. If just one of them hits, doesn't have to be both, They've now average damaged as high as Firebolt can ever hope to do. The ability to cantrip and weapon attack is over stated and under thought out and very few ever realize it because they don't bother to do the math and just accept everybodies word for it. This applies to the Blade Singer as well. But the Bladesinger at least has the excuse that it's almost never going to be compared to GWM and it's on a caster primary which makes it marginally more effective than on the EK.
Mage hand. Others can steal with mage hand. People just all assume it's bad because the mage hand can be seen and thus easily caught. But this is not something special to the thieves version of mage hand. The only special traits about it are to pick locks and that the hand itself is invisible so it can approach a theft target more easily, but not necessarily get away with the goods. The distraction. Familiars can do that. Everybody wants familiars on their AT's and stuff like that. It's fluff. It's ribbon. It's so you dont' need the Familiar that your probably going to take anyway and use many many times long before the AT's version comes online.
For Spell Stealing. your talking like somebody that has never used it. But I hate to tell you this. I have. I've tried it a couple times. I've desperately tried to make it work and useful. It's really not when it comes to actually using it. It's something that sounds good on paper that once you take evrything into account is almost completely useless to you. It has a lot of hard limits in how you use it. To the point that your better off doing almost anything else. Including casting your own counterspells which are going to work on all those higher level spells your going to want to block. This is one of the biggest bait and switch garbage tier abilities you will ever come across if you get into top tier play where you can use it. You'll end up using it less than a monk will getting 4 ki back every time they go into battle if they have none.
Edit: I'll even tell you the biggest reason why I found Spell Stealing useless when I was actually playing with it. Your almost never going to run into enemies that are running out of spell slots to be forced to use 3rd or eventually 4th level spells like the party is. They are going to have level 6 to 9 spells to throw at the party for a good dozen turns. By the time you get these kinds of enemies to the point that you can steal a spell in most cases? They are basically dead, your out of spell slots to cast the stolen spell anyway, and it's more about getting the fight done and just hoping they die before your party does.
Another Edit to just clear something up. Spell Stealing for the most part doesn't Work against Power Word Kill. You can only steal spells that you would have the ability to cast. Power Word Kill is never even an option to use Spell Stealing on in regards to stealing it or keeping them from using it. To try to do so you'd have just wasted your spell stealing if the DM doesn't just tell you no in the first place. And they'd have had to have cast Power Word Kill upon you specifically and not say... the barbarian or the fighter in the party that is probably causing them a lot more grief, or that Damned Shape Changing Druid that just doesn't want to keep the damage the enemy is inflicting upon them in their shape changed forms. But it's still not a spell they could have used more than twice at most. So blocking it for 8 hours doesn't really mean a damn. Their Spell casting Modifer is also likely better than your Save DC.
1) If its useful in some aspect of D&D, it isnt just some useless tie in. To compare it to the Pact Weapon of warlocks, there are also crucial differences. A. You can have two bonded weapons, not just one. B. You cannot be disarmed of your bonded weapon. C. You can summon it as a bonus action (compared to a warlock that has to use its full action to summon their weapon).
2) A cantrip is still better than a single weapon attack. The issue you bring up with it taking up 3 possible attacks isnt a problem until Tier 3 of play. There are still situations where being able to use a cantrip may be more useful than maxing your damage output that round. Also, by highlighting a fighter's reliance on GWM master to have high damage output, you also highlight why being able to summon your weapon and not have it ever disarmed is crucial, as it prevents you from being interrupted from using those hits.
3) No. Everyone cannot steal with mage hand the way an Arcane Trickster can. Mage hand states that you can stow or retrieve items from an open container. RAW a normal caster cannot use Mage Hand to grab an object being carried by another creature
4) Theres one crucial thing that makes Spell Thief better for an Arcane Trickster than counterspell, and that is that it doesn't cost any spell slots to use. Yeah, its not a guaranteed negate, but honestly by 17th level Counterspell wont be either. An arcane trickster could cast counterspell at a maximum of 4th level when spellcasting enemies will be casting spells way above that. So its really just a matter of whether you want the enemy to make a saving throw or if you would rather make an ability check, because you won't be flat canceling spells that often. I would agree the latter is probably the safer bet, but the former also comes with more benefits when it works and you don't have to burn one of your spell slots for the risk
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Damage Cantrips are weird for EK....
They are bad for 3-6 but then at 7 make a lot of sense when you can Cantrip + Attack as a BA....then get bad again at 11th.
If you are a STR EK then you might find more value in them as a ranged option but if you are a DEX EK and use ranged weapons....you are almost always better off just using your weapon.
MC has always been my go to for EK anyway as the base class is too boring for me.
As for 4 elements...I do not think the current iteration does much to encourage you to use your spells. The cost is too high and the trade off from just attacking is minimal as you never really get high damage options.
Fist and Whip are good....but its less damage than if you just flurry of blows and a stun is a better effect overall IMO. If they affected more than one creature I could see them being of use but pushing/pulling is generally less useful than Stunning and at the same or less Ki cost.
One of the things I absolutely love about this subclass is just how varied it can be. If you want to emphasize Dexterity for attacking and initiative, then your options will be a bit more limited. Still, there's some solid control, defense, mobility, offense, and utility. And with the potential for 5/6 of these by 17th-level (if you trade out Elemental Attunement), it shouldn't be hard to see just how powerful a monk can be.
But if you'd rather focus on a higher Wisdom score, to raise your Saving Throws for your elemental spells and Stunning Strike, then you have plenty of other good options. Arguably, too many good options. You can only ever have half of these from 17th-level onward. It's overwhelmingly AoE, and if you want to be a blaster you can cast these more times per day than pretty much any other spellcaster.
When you look at how they can spend their ki points on spells, the scaling is better than 1/3 casters and competitive with 1/2 casters. They just don't have as many spells; which should probably be viewed more like tricks. Honestly, I think they have more in common warlocks. And, if you like playing warlocks, I think Way of the Four Elements is right up your alley.
P.S.
I added which saving throws were targeted by each of the elemental disciplines from the second list. It's worth knowing not just that you can target saving throws, but also which ones so you can cover as many bases at once. Clench of the North Wind is all but guaranteed; which is a little disappointing. But that still leaves two possible choices for Strength, three possible choices to target Constitution, and four possible choices for Dexterity. That's 24 different possible combinations, assuming they keep Elemental Attunement and don't overlap on which saving throws are targeted.
Good point with the utility spells...that's one I do have a tendency to overlook.
Of those Fly is the one that really stands out as super helpful as you can fly to stun something in the air and watch it drop like a rock!
The others seem interesting but unless you are the only caster (albeit a slightly reduced 1/3 caster) then the others will be able to do them more effectively.
Sans Fly and Stoneskin the others dont gel too well with Monk much.
One other aspect of choosing Elemental Disciplines worth considering is how many require Strength or Dexterity saves. If you choose those, then you can do 2 turn combos with Stunning Strike to stun them on the first turn and then hit them with an Elemental Discipline on the second turn. Since they are stunned, they automatically fail their saving throws. It takes an extra turn to setup and still requires at least 1 ki point spent on Stunning Strike, but it guarantees you get the most bang for your buck with the ki points spent on the spell.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
That's an excellent point, and I edited my previous post to include just which saves are targeted. It's a pretty healthy spread.
Trying to dismiss every single feature of EK and AT as not really worth anything just gives me the impression that this whole argument is being done in bad faith.
Making every single subclass feature of the monk just "choose one spell" when every single other spellcasting class and subclass gets (way more) spells independent of features is objectively bad 5e design.
Furthermore, causing these spells to dip form the same pool that your base class features rely on is again objectively bad. Not only do you not get subclass features, you get fewer uses of your main class features too. All for the dubious benefit of casting from a completely unprecedented abysmally small pool of spells - let's be honest here, 4 is being thrown around but it's more like 2 since the majority of games stay in the first 10 levels. Two. Spells.
You can compare their spellcasting ability to warlocks, but the thing about warlocks is that they are absolutely swimming in class features. They have so much going on. This does not. You can cite how cool the base monk features are, but that base didn't stop all the other monk subclasses from giving you way more goodies.
It's really just not good. This is the massive consensus despite a few people who bafflingly continue to defend it (and even those unfailingly end up admitting it could stand some fixes even though it's "just as good as other subclasses").
I'm not trying to be argumentative and I don't really want to go through this again. I'm only commenting because a new player might see this without seeing all the other threads about it and think that this is a reasonable argument where both sides have good points. If that's you just know that Kaboom is right that the overwhelming consensus of the community is that this subclass is among the worst 5e has to offer. The fact that it is such an awesome archetype just makes it hurt all the more.
To be slightly more constructive, I'll add the features I'm considering on my rework of the subclass. These are in addition to a list of 34 possible disciples (8 of each element plus absorb elements and a variation of elemental weapon) of which you ultimately gain 10, plus the elemental control cantrips. Disciplines that correspond to level 4 or 5 spells are considered Master Disciplines and you can only use one MD/day.
3 - Elemental Stance
When you spend an action to use an Elemental Discipline associated with earth or water, you can use the Patient Defense bonus action on that turn without spending a ki point.
When you spend an action to use an Elemental Discipline associated with fire or air, you can use the Step of the Wind bonus action on that turn without spending a ki point.
3 - Elemental Understanding
Whenever you make an Intelligence check concerning elemental creatures or effects, you gain a bonus to the check equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of +1).
6 - Give and Take
Immediately after you use an action to spend 3 or more ki points on an Elemental Discipline, you can use your bonus action to reabsorb the dissipating elemental energy, regaining one ki point. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
11 - Divert elements
When an ally within 30 feet makes a saving throw against an area effect that deals fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage, you can use a Reaction to grant a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).
17 - Elemental Transcendance
When you cast an Elemental Discipline that deals damage, you can spend two additional ki points to change the damage type to fire, cold, lightning, thunder, or bludgeoning. Alternately, you can spend four additional ki points to change the damage type to force. Points spent on this feature do not count against your maximum limit of six ki points per Elemental Discipline.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
"Furthermore, causing these spells to dip form the same pool that your base class features rely on is again objectively bad. Not only do you not get subclass features, you get fewer uses of your main class features too. All for the dubious benefit of casting from a completely unprecedented abysmally small pool of spells - let's be honest here, 4 is being thrown around but it's more like 2 since the majority of games stay in the first 10 levels. Two. Spells."
Oh yeah I fully agree and thats why I advocate for the Pact Slot system as it at least introduces a secondary pool of resources which Monks desperately need.
Even WotC is dabbling in this with the Dragon Monk getting PB number of uses of its subclass ability per short rest....which is a HUGE improvement to me.
With all due respect, but anyone who uses the phrase "objectively bad" when referencing a creative work doesn't know what they're talking about and should reconsider whether they have anything else to say. Because if they don't they should probably remain silent on the subject.
Monks do not desperately need a second resource. This is built from the idea along with the costs being too high of people that have just looked at it and never really played it. us peope that have played it have been telling you the costs aren't exactly what they seem. That people have not thought them out when making this claim and they only need minor adjustments. Half of this thread talks about this very fact. As well as the fact thta it could use more choices.
People want the second Resource because that's familiar to them so it seems like it fixes things when it really doesn't. It just creates a different issue for the 4 elements monk. It's just a familiar issue that almost everybody has reached the point of "It is what it is and it can't be changed." To the point of rejecting a system that actually changes it as bad.
You may not be trying to be argumentative but you are showing you haven't read a lot of what I've said.
For Starters, I've said that these things are required for those classes to work and even pretend they are blending their Magic User Sides with their Martial Sides. The SubClasses do not work without these abilities. They are not extra. Take them away and almost nobody is going to pick them over just multiclassing. The 4 elements monk does not need more just to make it work in any way shape or form. it's the only one that doesn't. It works without making exceptions that only apply to them or giving them Abilities that are going to be good for the 5% of the time that you use them so everybody is going to argue in their favor. If you don't believe me then you can easily test this yourself. Find a group and play regular games for a few months, best at medium or higher levels because low levels are missing most of it anyway, and play in a group that has a martial and a caster and play the EK without using any of the EK's subclass abilities like it doesn't have them. your EK is not going to feel all that great to play under those restrictions and your going to wonder why your not just playing a multi-class or just plain a different subclass or class entirely. 4 elements monk on the other hand does not have this problem. This is something that you can do for yourself.
The Way More your all harping on about? It's an illusion. It's an argument based on surface scanning and not real analysis of the situation. Those things that you all think are so much more are various things required by those Subclasses. They Aren't just Extra's that your getting on top of it. An EK is not going to want to cast spells, specially lower level spells at higher levels if they do not have a way to take advantage of their combat prowess. This is one of the reasons that Reaction Spells, BA spells, and Multi-round Buff Spells are often on every list of "the best spells" for the subclass. And the Full spells tend to be the ones that are seen to be the best on their own and worth giving up everything martial for a turn in order to cast rather than how they mix with the subclass. The Spells that they focus on how they mix tend most often are the ones that don't mess up with the action economy of their attack action. And yet there are plenty of people that still disagree with these lists.
On the Matter of Costs and perceptions, I gave several different angles to look at some of these problems about the supposed costs of 4 elements monk to show that it isn't necessarily true from taking the Casting as much as you can route to only casting comparatively, to the point that I actually even pointed out that the Shadow Monk is actually just as effectively cost inefficient before level 6 (and potentially up to more like level 8) to use it's subclass abilities as everybody argues that the 4 elements monk is, and the Shadow Monk is seen by popular opinion as one of the best monk classes in the game above all others and with very few flaws in it's design.
Massive Consensus as you put it is not necessarily right. It's mostly just a bunch of hearsay being parroted around by people who don't know better but believe they got it from somebody that did the actual work and they've deamed an authority in some way but don't question it themselves. Your baffled by people defending it or saying it's not that way because your simply saying "Group think is more important than the truth" We know for a Fact Group think is often not correct and is often based on misunderstood information if not outright lies. We know this to the point that in that same group think there are popular phrases such as "Gossip Travels Faster than the News." and "Outrage spreads farther and faster than the Truth." And many other various sayings that basically all boil down to the same thing. Popular Opinion is not necessarily always right and you should think and ask questions for yourself.
Or if you want a TLDR on Mass Consensus. Just remember that for the longest time Mass Consensus demanded that the world was flat and everything revolved around the earth. To the point that there are people that still believe this even to this day and that all proof to the contrary is just one big conspiracy theory.
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH!
EVERYBODY CALM DOWN. Let's not let this become hostile. Please, no aggressive or even passive-aggressive statements on this thread.
Please.