So I know if something pushes or pulls you, you don't take opportunity attacks because you're not using your movement.
Does the 3rd option for Gathered Swarm count at being pushed/pulled?
Once on each of your turns, you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, immediately after you hit a creature with an attack:
The attack’s target takes 1d6 piercing damage from the swarm.
The attack’s target must succeed on a Strength saving throw against your spell save DC or be moved by the swarm up to 15 feet horizontally in a direction of your choice.
You are moved by the swarm 5 feet horizontally in a direction of your choice.
To piggyback onto his question so I don't have to make a new thread. Is the 1d6 from gathered swarm affected by something like the Piercer feat and would you double it on a crit? I'm thinking no for the feat and yes for the crit?
The two interpretations are: The gathered swarm is a flavor text way to describe damage you do. In this case yes to both. The piercer feat describes piercing damage you do. If the swarm is an extension of your attack than it absolutely applies. Now the tricky part would be " you can reroll one of the attack’s damage dice,". A very generous reading of this would allow you to reroll any of the damage dice (from your slashing long sword, from Hunter's Mark, from a spell attack), while a more reasonable one would limit you to just the piercing damage involved. The gathered swarm is not you. I have no idea on the feat, but the 1d6 damage from the swarm should be doubled on a crit just like any other additional dice damage on a crit. If your DM rules tighter than this they are probably a jerk.
Personally I would favor the first reading with the caveat that you can only reroll piercing damage. The intent of the feat is to be chained off a piercing weapon. That hits the letter and spirit of the feat. Pick up a rapier, a pick, or a bow and get after it.
To piggyback onto his question so I don't have to make a new thread. Is the 1d6 from gathered swarm affected by something like the Piercer feat and would you double it on a crit? I'm thinking no for the feat and yes for the crit?
No. No. It is not the ranger dealing the damage. The swarm is. It can not crit. It can not be effected by feats. It is just a little bump of extra damage.
To piggyback onto his question so I don't have to make a new thread. Is the 1d6 from gathered swarm affected by something like the Piercer feat and would you double it on a crit? I'm thinking no for the feat and yes for the crit?
No. No. It is not the ranger dealing the damage. The swarm is. It can not crit. It can not be effected by feats. It is just a little bump of extra damage.
Thanks, it would have probably been more helpful if you answer his question and not my nearly 2 year old one.
Not to mention that this interpretation is very debatable as well lol
It's pretty RAW.
By your interpretation one could make a case that Hunter's Mark and such don't get doubled on crits either since it's the Mark that deals the damage, not you. On the other hand, both come from your datasheet so you are the actual source so one could also make a case that they should both get doubled on crits. It might be RAW but it's still interpreted and that's where I disagree.
I don't think that tracks as Hunter's Mark specifically says that "you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack", the wording for the swarm's damage is definitely more ambiguous, so it's entirely possible that it wouldn't be doubled on a critical hit, though I don't really see any harm in allowing it.
The move is more complicated, but in some ways simple because it doesn't really matter how you are moved, only that you did on your turn. The fact that the swarm "moves" you means that you are still "moving" out of reach, and therefore the opportunity attacks can happen. It doesn't matter that you are being moved, or that you are not using your own movement as the rule doesn't care, the only keyword really is "move".
This is different to similar effects which specifically "push" or "throw" a target, i.e- is not defined as a "move".
Since the swarm doesn't move you using your movement, it's not eligible for opportunity attacks.
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Not to mention that this interpretation is very debatable as well lol
It's pretty RAW.
By your interpretation one could make a case that Hunter's Mark and such don't get doubled on crits either since it's the Mark that deals the damage, not you. On the other hand, both come from your datasheet so you are the actual source so one could also make a case that they should both get doubled on crits. It might be RAW but it's still interpreted and that's where I disagree.
This wording and use is just like poison damage from a sting. The sting crits, but the poison is from a saving throw and does not crit.
Not to mention that this interpretation is very debatable as well lol
It's pretty RAW.
By your interpretation one could make a case that Hunter's Mark and such don't get doubled on crits either since it's the Mark that deals the damage, not you. On the other hand, both come from your datasheet so you are the actual source so one could also make a case that they should both get doubled on crits. It might be RAW but it's still interpreted and that's where I disagree.
I don't think that tracks as Hunter's Mark specifically says that "you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack", the wording for the swarm's damage is definitely more ambiguous, so it's entirely possible that it wouldn't be doubled on a critical hit, though I don't really see any harm in allowing it.
The move is more complicated, but in some ways simple because it doesn't matter how you are moved, only that you did. The fact that the swarm "moves" you means that you are still "moving" out of reach, and therefore the opportunity attacks can happen. It doesn't matter that you are being moved, or that you are not using your own movement as the rule doesn't care, the only keyword is "move".
This is different to similar effects which specifically "push" or "throw" a target, i.e- is not defined as a "move".
That is interesting, as the rules say "You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." But you do use your action (attack) to trigger the effect.
And critical hit rules say "When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target." At the same time the swarm rules say "Once on each of your turns, you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, immediately after you hit a creature with an attack..."
Not to mention that this interpretation is very debatable as well lol
It's pretty RAW.
By your interpretation one could make a case that Hunter's Mark and such don't get doubled on crits either since it's the Mark that deals the damage, not you. On the other hand, both come from your datasheet so you are the actual source so one could also make a case that they should both get doubled on crits. It might be RAW but it's still interpreted and that's where I disagree.
I don't think that tracks as Hunter's Mark specifically says that "you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack", the wording for the swarm's damage is definitely more ambiguous, so it's entirely possible that it wouldn't be doubled on a critical hit, though I don't really see any harm in allowing it.
The move is more complicated, but in some ways simple because it doesn't really matter how you are moved, only that you did on your turn. The fact that the swarm "moves" you means that you are still "moving" out of reach, and therefore the opportunity attacks can happen. It doesn't matter that you are being moved, or that you are not using your own movement as the rule doesn't care, the only keyword really is "move".
This is different to similar effects which specifically "push" or "throw" a target, i.e- is not defined as a "move".
The rules sepcifically call out not using your movement:
when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.
When the swarm is moving you, you are not using your movement or an action (action was the attack). To me, this meets the criteria for no AOO.
So I know if something pushes or pulls you, you don't take opportunity attacks because you're not using your movement.
Does the 3rd option for Gathered Swarm count at being pushed/pulled?
This is phrased as forced movement which does not draw OAs. Would be a pretty bad option otherwise.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Second.
To piggyback onto his question so I don't have to make a new thread. Is the 1d6 from gathered swarm affected by something like the Piercer feat and would you double it on a crit? I'm thinking no for the feat and yes for the crit?
The two interpretations are:
The gathered swarm is a flavor text way to describe damage you do. In this case yes to both. The piercer feat describes piercing damage you do. If the swarm is an extension of your attack than it absolutely applies. Now the tricky part would be " you can reroll one of the attack’s damage dice,". A very generous reading of this would allow you to reroll any of the damage dice (from your slashing long sword, from Hunter's Mark, from a spell attack), while a more reasonable one would limit you to just the piercing damage involved.
The gathered swarm is not you. I have no idea on the feat, but the 1d6 damage from the swarm should be doubled on a crit just like any other additional dice damage on a crit. If your DM rules tighter than this they are probably a jerk.
Personally I would favor the first reading with the caveat that you can only reroll piercing damage. The intent of the feat is to be chained off a piercing weapon. That hits the letter and spirit of the feat. Pick up a rapier, a pick, or a bow and get after it.
Does the lack of opportunity attack also apply to the 7nth level fly speed? It's also the swarm moving the ranger around
No. No. It is not the ranger dealing the damage. The swarm is. It can not crit. It can not be effected by feats. It is just a little bump of extra damage.
No, you gain the flying speed so you would still provoke OP attacks unless paired with the gathered swarm ability.
Thanks, it would have probably been more helpful if you answer his question and not my nearly 2 year old one.
Oh my gosh! I didn't even look at the date. I'm very sorry about that.
It's pretty RAW.
I don't think that tracks as Hunter's Mark specifically says that "you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack", the wording for the swarm's damage is definitely more ambiguous, so it's entirely possible that it wouldn't be doubled on a critical hit, though I don't really see any harm in allowing it.
The move is more complicated, but in some ways simple because it doesn't really matter how you are moved, only that you did on your turn. The fact that the swarm "moves" you means that you are still "moving" out of reach, and therefore the opportunity attacks can happen. It doesn't matter that you are being moved, or that you are not using your own movement as the rule doesn't care, the only keyword really is "move".This is different to similar effects which specifically "push" or "throw" a target, i.e- is not defined as a "move".Since the swarm doesn't move you using your movement, it's not eligible for opportunity attacks.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
This wording and use is just like poison damage from a sting. The sting crits, but the poison is from a saving throw and does not crit.
That is interesting, as the rules say "You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." But you do use your action (attack) to trigger the effect.
And critical hit rules say "When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target." At the same time the swarm rules say "Once on each of your turns, you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, immediately after you hit a creature with an attack..."
The rules sepcifically call out not using your movement:
When the swarm is moving you, you are not using your movement or an action (action was the attack). To me, this meets the criteria for no AOO.