The Sorcerer and the Warlock are not even close to each other. The Warlock gets three spells per short rest. The Sorcerer casts more often than any other class in the game.
Multiclassing won’t be a problem because of the scarcity of SP.
»Compared to *all* the other full casting classes, pre-Tasha's sorcerers don't get anything equitable in return for their lack of versatility». Sorcerers get a lot. Just as one example, a subtle illusion. The only thing an Illusionist can match that with is Malleable Illusion. A subtle enchantment is an option though that nothing compares to. Sitting in a tavern and you want to get information from an unfriendly? You can’t just cast on them. That will probably get you in trouble with the law.
“The sorcerer needs versatility because it's a way of making them single class balanced with the other casters without breaking the multiclass balance. I'm not talking wizard level versatility, just more than they have now.”. You say that, but I’m not seeing you prove it.
Subtle enchantment is overrated. Subtle charm person just means that they don't know it was you that charmed them until the spell ends. Charm spells have been nerfed in 5e relative to previous editions.
Also I can just invert your illusionist argument.
Evoker wizards get sculpt spell, which allows them to blast at will regardless of whether the rest of the party is in close combat. Careful spell doesn't come close to matching that (unless your entire party has Evasion).
Diviner wizards get Portent, which is basically just a better version of Heighten Spell if you roll low at the start of the day. For that matter Heighten spell has basically been superseded by silvery barbs now, which is available to bards, sorcerers, and wizards.
Yes, there are things that sorcerers do that other classes can't do. But that's basically true of any class. The question is rather, in the context of all the things that a sorcerer can or can't do, are they balanced with respect to what the other classes can or can't do.
The wizard is the easiest class to compare the sorcerer to because they both get very little outside of spellcasting. Low hit dice, no armour proficiency, minimal weapon proficiencies. Their base spell slot progression is the same.
Wizards get a better spell list than sorcerers, a much higher prepared/known spell count (25 vs 15 at L20), plus probably the best versatility in the game due to their spell book.
Sorcerers get metamagic and flexible casting, which as I've argued above is mechanically equivalent to extra spell slots in the vast majority of cases. That's it.
At level 20 those 20 SP you get as a sorcerer are equivalent to 4 3rd level spell slots, or two slots at 5th and a 4th level slot. Meanwhile the 20th level wizard gets two extra 3rd level slots (which refresh on a short rest thanks to signature spell).
In 5e the wizard and sorcerer can cast any spell they have prepared/know respectively. So in return for metamagic the sorcerer loses 10 known/prepared spells and also loses the ability to alter their spell choices overnight, and has a poorer spell list, and also loses ritual casting (which is basically free spell slots), and gets no spells back on a short rest until level 20.
Does that sound like a fair/balanced exchange to you?
If the answer is no, then the question is what to do about it.
You could give the sorcerer more sorcery points, significantly increasing the number of extra spell slots they get. But this I would argue would simply make the Sorcadin and Sorlock multiclass builds ridiculously overpowered by adding more fuel to their signature tricks.
You could give the sorcerer more survivability. d8 hit dice, maybe some armour or weapon proficiencies. Sure, but this changes the flavour of the class as it stands, which (in my opinion) is a "break all the rules of magic" caster.
You could give the sorcerer more free metamagics. Okay, this might have some potential. But the trouble is, each metamagic is only really useful with a certain class of spell. Extend spell isn't going to do anything for your fireball, and Empower spell isn't going to help you fly. So without also increasing the number of known spells, can you really make effective use of those extra metamagics?
So we get back to my point, which is that increasing the sorcerer's spell choices is just about the only way to go while maintaining both single and multi class balance.
And I think that the way WotC have done it in Tasha's is really nice. Adding 10 origin based spells for the two latest subclasses, from specific schools that can be traded out for a warlock, wizard, or sorcerer spell of the appropriate school. It makes each subclass much more flavourful, and expands the sorcerer's versatility without getting anywhere near the swiss army knife role that wizards play.
Now the Tasha's sorcerer subclasses get 15 known + 10 origin = 25 spells at level 20, which is a match for the wizard. So the Tasha's sorcerer is exchanging the wizard's massive versatility of being able to prepare spells from a spellbook overnight with having to lock in those spells each time they level (and a smaller spell list). In exchange they get metamagic. This seems like a much more balanced exchange. Arguably, you could still give the sorcerer extra free metamagics known at certain levels and still be balanced, and with the expanded spell choices they might even actually be able to make effective use of them.
Heave you been reading this thread? I don’t think you have,, because almost everything you’ve said about how Wizards can do things Sorcerers can’t has already been addressed.
First and foremost, the Sorcerer doesn’t need to be as powerful as the wizard. Are they as powerful as other classes, for example, the fighter? Okay, that is sufficient.
“Subtle charm person just means that they don’t know it was you who charmed them until the spell ends.” Them and everybody else. I just gave a kickass way that is helpful. OBVIOUSLY, Charm Spells are not the only application. Dominate, Phantasmal Force, Sleep, Magic Jar, Illusions, there are a ton of obvious alternatives.
”Careful spell doesn’t come close to matching that” As has been pointed out REPEATEDLY, Sculpt Spell doesn’t work with Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern, and many more spells.
Diviners get Portent which is usable ONLY THREE TIMES per long rest. That’s not a lot. Heighten spell can be used much more often.
I do NOT believe that you are even trying to be an honest broker in this discussion given how many times your talking points have already been destroyed.
You asked me to prove my point, so rather than reverting to accusing me of being dishonest, maybe could actually try refuting some of my points or even you know, proving your own?
Heighten spell costs 3 SP, which is only 3 times a day at level 9 or 6 times per long rest at level 18 (unless you start burning slots), and you don't get to you know choose what they roll.
I'm not sure why I'm bothering at this point, because I have indeed read the thread. Did you actually read my last post? Because it seems like you missed the main point, which is not the specifics of what sorcerers can do that other classes can't, but (again) is what sorcerers can and can't do balanced relative to the other classes?
The fighter comparison seems very strange to me because the two classes are basically polar opposites. But sure, if that's what you want then go ahead. So go on, prove to me why sorcerers are or aren't balanced with fighters and if not how you would change them?
PS In case it wasn't clear, I'm arguing for an official backport of origin spell lists to the pre-Tasha's sorcerer subclasses. This may not fix all the balance issues but it would sure be a great start.
I want you to consider two things, A: Power and identity are two different things, if a sorcerers mechanical identity is an unfocused wizard with less actual spells known but some nifty subclass esque features they can use a handful of times a day, then that's not good enough. B: This thread has 141 replies by 30 people, the Poll has 51 votes and it has something like 15.5 hundred views. If that many people think there's an issue then clearly there is something to it.
Also you can only use portent twice per day, and only at 9th level can you use 3 Heightened spell, unless for god knows what reason your turning spell slots into sorcery points. In addition disadvantage is a lot less useful cause you could just turn an 18 into a 17 and accomplish nothing, certainty is a very strong mechanical benefit.
I want you to consider two things, A: Power and identity are two different things, if a sorcerers mechanical identity is an unfocused wizard with less actual spells known but some nifty subclass esque features they can use a handful of times a day, then that's not good enough. B: This thread has 141 replies by 30 people, the Poll has 51 votes and it has something like 15.5 hundred views. If that many people think there's an issue then clearly there is something to it.
Also you can only use portent twice per day, and only at 9th level can you use 3 Heightened spell, unless for god knows what reason your turning spell slots into sorcery points. In addition disadvantage is a lot less useful cause you could just turn an 18 into a 17 and accomplish nothing, certainty is a very strong mechanical benefit.
I'm not sure who this is replying to, but if it's me then I accept there's an issue with the sorcerer and have made clear my opinion on what changes I would like to see to fix it.
No it's for Wren. Though I do disagree with some of the things you've said as I believe that A: A caster who breaks all the rules is incredibly hard if not impossible to balance in a rules based system, and B: Due to A I think the sorcerer should be taken in it's a new and different direction with a new mechanical identity to fully free it from the "Wizard but not quite" dynamic it's stuck in now.
Edit: Somehow didn't say this at the start, sorry if I accidently replied to you instead.
No it's for Wren. Though I do disagree with some of the things you've said as I believe that A: A caster who breaks all the rules is incredibly hard if not impossible to balance in a rules based system, and B: Due to A I think the sorcerer should be taken in it's a new and different direction with a new mechanical identity to fully free it from the "Wizard but not quite" dynamic it's stuck in now.
Edit: Somehow didn't say this at the start, sorry if I accidently replied to you instead.
It's cool. I agree with what you said here. To me metamagic represents the rules you have to follow when "breaking the (usual) rules of magic" if that makes sense. Which of course, as you say, is necessary in a rules based system.
I'm generally happy with the current sorcerer overall, my preferred changes would be something like:
Sub-class Spell Lists: Older sub-classes need to be updated with spell-lists, as an extra 10 spells makes such a huge difference for the more recent sub-classes. If you look at my homebrew sub-classes, most of them are existing sorcerer sub-classes with spell-lists added! There are also a few sub-classes that need major overhauls; Wild Magic is fun but mechanically not very good, Draconic Bloodline starts alright then has a lot of weak later abilities and so-on.
More Metamagic Choices: Metamagics are the core of the class but I feel like we get too few choices, which means we never get quite enough flexibility to compensate for generally having fewer spells compared to a Wizard. On my current sorcerer I took Metamagic Adept for this reason just to get two more picks, which feels a lot better, so definitely should get more choices.
No Spellcasting Focus Required: While we should still be able to use one, I don't think sorcerers should require a casting focus, as we are the casting focus.
Balance the Elemental Spells: Not Sorcerer specific, but Wizards of the Coast really need to go through the current spells and fill in the gaps as some elements are seriously underrepresented. We finally got a bunch of new ice spells in Rime of the Frostmaiden, but then they haven't been released outside of that campaign and they're currently Wizard only. It's like, who is in charge of decision making?
Unique Sorcerer Spells: Self explanatory really, as I can't name any spells that only sorcerers can get. If our magic comes from within then I feel like we should have some risky dangerous nonsense, e.g- strong spells that have a cost to the caster.
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I'm generally happy with the current sorcerer overall, my preferred changes would be something like:
Sub-class Spell Lists: Older sub-classes need to be updated with spell-lists, as an extra 10 spells makes such a huge difference for the more recent sub-classes. If you look at my homebrew sub-classes, most of them are existing sorcerer sub-classes with spell-lists added! There are also a few sub-classes that need major overhauls; Wild Magic is fun but mechanically not very good, Draconic Bloodline starts alright then has a lot of weak later abilities and so-on.
More Metamagic Choices: Metamagics are the core of the class but I feel like we get too few choices, which means we never get quite enough flexibility to compensate for generally having fewer spells compared to a Wizard. On my current sorcerer I took Metamagic Adept for this reason just to get two more picks, which feels a lot better, so definitely should get more choices.
No Spellcasting Focus Required: While we should still be able to use one, I don't think sorcerers should require a casting focus, as we are the casting focus.
Balance the Elemental Spells: Not Sorcerer specific, but Wizards of the Coast really need to go through the current spells and fill in the gaps as some elements are seriously underrepresented. We finally got a bunch of new ice spells in Rime of the Frostmaiden, but then they haven't been released outside of that campaign and they're currently Wizard only. It's like, who is in charge of decision making?
Unique Sorcerer Spells: Self explanatory really, as I can't name any spells that only sorcerers can get. If our magic comes from within then I feel like we should have some risky dangerous nonsense, e.g- strong spells that have a cost to the caster.
Happy with all of these TBH.
No spellcasting focus required might need some further thought. For example, does this mean that a dual-wielding sorcerer can cast a reaction spell freely without taking War Caster?
As far as sorcerer only spells the only one I know of is [spell[chaos bolt[/spell]?
No spellcasting focus required might need some further thought. For example, does this mean that a dual-wielding sorcerer can cast a reaction spell freely without taking War Caster?
The focus normally only provides uncosted material components, so you'd still need have a free hand for somatic, and be able to speak for verbal as normal? You could however combine with Subtle Spell however to eliminate all uncosted components?
I'm mainly thinking that it's weird for a sorcerer to become hobbled if their focus is lost even though the bulk of their power is supposed to come from within. Where a Wizard might need to have the actual feather (or a focus) in order to perform their ritual/formula to Feather Fall, for a sorcerer it seems like something they should just be able to invoke with a word (which may be more symbolic than anything else). Probably quite a minor difference in practice, but could come in handy in unusual cases.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My only issue with the 'become your own focus' thing is that I feel like focuses add a lot to the roleplay aspect. EX: My current sorcs focus is a jeweled necklace that was given to her by her mother and I'm hoping part of her development will be teaching her adopted little brother to use magic as well and making giving him a focus a big part of it. Mechanically, I can see the argument, but roleplay wise, I think you're missing out on too much potential.
I also want to comment on the 'burning spell slots' comment. Depending on the situation it can actually be REALLY useful! Like, say, burning some level 1 and 2 slots so you can convert the points into a level 4 or 5 slot (especially if you don't have any spells of those lower levels that are useful in that situation because of how limited your selection is). Or ditching a slot to get the sort points to, I dunno, twin-cast haste. It's certainly not something you should always be doing... but when you can polymorph yourself into a giant ape enough times in a single fight that the GM just stops asking if you have the spell slots for it because he KNOWS you freaking do... well... It has some very good uses.
I'd also contest that 'pre-sasha's' comment as divine souls are REALLY good because of their flexibility and being able to pick from two lists. Though I also feel that drastically accentuates the fact that they need more spells known because they're trying to work two spell lists to effectively become white mages.
Back on point though; I think the whole issue with sorc multiclassing OP'ed-ness would be to simply delay when you get the bonuses. You only take 1 level of clockwork and all you're getting out of it is Alarm and Protection from good/evil. Or with sorc points, if you made it so that you got 1 per level except for every 4th level where you'd get 2 you'd hit level 20 with 25 sorc points but someone dipping for a level or two wouldn't get any 'extra' benefit.
The 'compared to other classes' comment also seems very... short-sighted. For example, a fighter gets heavy armor, multiple attacks per round, action surges, and so-forth. Not only does this make a comparison extremely difficult but, even if it COULD be made, the classes frequently also have things that can be used outside of combat (remember that exists). For example, those wizard rolls... Not only can those be applied to basically any enemy roll or any ally roll, but they can be applied out of combat as well. Use that nat 20 to succeed a diplomacy check despite having only 2 in the stat, or use that nat 1 to make the guard fail to notice that the 'human' who just walked past them is actually three gnomes in a trench coat. Heighten spell can't do that. But okay, maybe wizards are just OP and comparing any class to them is a losing battle... But what then? Do we compare them to, I dunno, Rogue and say 'well a sorcerer is better than a rogue, so clearly sorcs don't need buffing'? Obviously not. Just because Sorc > Rogue doesn't mean that the Average Power >>>>> Sorc > Rogue (I don't know how rogues stack up on the OP/UP scale, just needed a class to put there).
I do agree that Sorcs need some distinctly SORCERER spells. Stuff that a wizard simply CAN'T get. My suggestion would be to take some current spells (not all of them by any means) and then give them an extra feature that could be used if you spent sorc points. Like, I dunno, sink a point into Shocking Grasp and you can give it a range of 30 feet, make it have advantage regardless of what the target is wearing, and make it so it halfs/stops the enemy movement. Each point you sink you can add another effect. Or darkness. Sink a sorc point into it and you can split it into two smaller spheres or remove the concentration requirement or something. I'm not saying these specific effects should be chosen, just that it's an example of some way to actually make the sorc stand out as a caster. By being able to add additional, possibly unique, effects to spells (hopefully not just upping damage or target numbers) you'd make it so that a sorc could do things that simply COULDN'T be done by non-sorcs. No matter how hard a wizard tries he can't get a simple 'Darkness' spell to not use concentration for example (don't care if they actually can or can't cause that's not the point) but a sorcerer can do so with their gut.
Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped. Sorcerers have no use for the spellbooks and ancient tomes of magic lore that wizards rely on, nor do they rely on a patron to grant their spells as warlocks do. People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet. A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on. Some sorcerers wield magic that springs from an ancient bloodline infused with the magic of dragons. Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways.
Several quotes ripped straight from the sorcerer classes flavor text. Maybe I'm wrong about sorcerer drawing the magic from within themselves, but if I am it's because the book does everything in it's power to convince you of that.
Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped. Sorcerers have no use for the spellbooks and ancient tomes of magic lore that wizards rely on, nor do they rely on a patron to grant their spells as warlocks do. People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet. A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on. Some sorcerers wield magic that springs from an ancient bloodline infused with the magic of dragons. Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways.
Several quotes ripped straight from the sorcerer classes flavor text. Maybe I'm wrong about sorcerer drawing the magic from within themselves, but if I am it's because the book does everything in it's power to convince you of that.
Yeah, they really lean into the "Sourcerer" concept in 5e.
Might be neat to give Sorcerers a "raw magic" attack to represent their inherent magic. It would deal force damage, because that's what raw magic does, and maybe they could take options as they level to alter it in certain ways, like how they can alter spells. Since it's so core to the concept, you'd probably make it a cantrip so they can use it all the time. Call it... Arcane Laser. No... Magic Shot. No... Well, I'm sure there's something you could call it, anyway.
Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped. Sorcerers have no use for the spellbooks and ancient tomes of magic lore that wizards rely on, nor do they rely on a patron to grant their spells as warlocks do. People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet. A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on. Some sorcerers wield magic that springs from an ancient bloodline infused with the magic of dragons. Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways.
Several quotes ripped straight from the sorcerer classes flavor text. Maybe I'm wrong about sorcerer drawing the magic from within themselves, but if I am it's because the book does everything in it's power to convince you of that.
Yeah, they really lean into the "Sourcerer" concept in 5e.
Might be neat to give Sorcerers a "raw magic" attack to represent their inherent magic. It would deal force damage, because that's what raw magic does, and maybe they could take options as they level to alter it in certain ways, like how they can alter spells. Since it's so core to the concept, you'd probably make it a cantrip so they can use it all the time. Call it... Arcane Laser. No... Magic Shot. No... Well, I'm sure there's something you could call it, anyway.
I really like this idea. A signature attack cantrip for sorcs, like EB for warlocks, that you can either add a metamagic element to automatically at the usual level-up break points along with the damage boost, or just get a reduced sorc point cost to use your existing metamagic options on (i.e. Empowered would be a freebie instead of costing one point, while Seeking would cost 1 instead of 2)
Arcane Flare?
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Sorcerous Bolt, though I really don't think that's a good idea, several people have already said sorcerer should be rolled into Warlock, and giving it an EB equivalent would not help it's case.
Magi-Magi-Pretty-Destro-Blast? Flavor mage armor as a transformation sequence?
Anyways, I do kind of agree that a single signature cantrip, especially one of the 'bolt' variety that is customizable, is too... warlock-like. I prefer my option because nothing's stopping other classes from taking the spell, but a sorcerer can use said spell in ways that are unconventional. So just because a sorc and a wizard are casting fireball doesn't mean that they're casting the SAME fireball. Like, I dunno, maybe the sorc can turn the ground it strikes into a flaming area for a bit for 2 sorc points or something?
Yeah, they really lean into the "Sourcerer" concept in 5e.
Might be neat to give Sorcerers a "raw magic" attack to represent their inherent magic. It would deal force damage, because that's what raw magic does, and maybe they could take options as they level to alter it in certain ways, like how they can alter spells. Since it's so core to the concept, you'd probably make it a cantrip so they can use it all the time. Call it... Arcane Laser. No... Magic Shot. No... Well, I'm sure there's something you could call it, anyway.
Forum DM: Okay Choir, sure you can do that but you're gonna have to make a Trolling check.
Two of the issues I've noticed while playing Sorcerer definitely have to do with Sorcery Points, or a lack thereof. The first is that, as the Sorcerer's unique class ability, everything you do depends on having Sorcery Points. Which makes sense, but having subclass abilities competing with Metamagic uses competing with spell slot creation really strains the point budget. Whereas Bard or Cleric, when they get an extra feature, they get some uses per long or short rest, and they all have their own usage pools to draw from. You have to choose between doing subclass stuff, or doing metamagic stuff.
Which leads to my second issue. Converting spell slots and Sorcery Points is a lossy exchange. You'd have to burn 5 first level slots just to be able to cast a third level spell, but if you burn a third level slot you only have enough points to cast a second level spell, or a first level spell and a cheap Metamagic (or a cheap subclass feature. Are there any that only use 1 sorcery point?). I think the whole 'slots to points and points to slots' was supposed to be how a Sorcerer competes with other full casters. 'The Sorcerer doesn't know a lot of spells, but they can cast them more' I think was the design philosophy. It gives them a level of flexibility other full casters don't have, except it also draws on your limited pool of points to do so. Which I've already described as a problem.
So, solutions. Ascendant Dragon Monk handles my first issue best, I feel, giving some uses for a feature per rest but also allowing you to desperation-fuel them with Ki points if you have to. The Sorcerer should lean into this design, allowing you to do your cool subclass stuff without making the rest of your class abilities non-functional, unless you burn spell slots. For the second, I don't have an elegant solution for, aside from fixing the exchange rates to give you the same costs going between spells and points and back. Alternatively, make the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points equation give more points after tiers 1 and 2, to prevent multiclass shenanigans. Say, at level 10, every level gives you 2 more sorcery points. This leaves the Sorcerer with a max of 30, but dips only give a limited amount. Or you could have a feature that essentially gives you wildcard slots, allowing you to cast any spell you know at lowest level that cannot be traded for Sorcery Points, thus giving the Sorcerer more spells per day. You'd have to have that be a tier 2 or higher feature, again to prevent multiclass shenanigans.
Magi-Magi-Pretty-Destro-Blast? Flavor mage armor as a transformation sequence?
Anyways, I do kind of agree that a single signature cantrip, especially one of the 'bolt' variety that is customizable, is too... warlock-like. I prefer my option because nothing's stopping other classes from taking the spell, but a sorcerer can use said spell in ways that are unconventional. So just because a sorc and a wizard are casting fireball doesn't mean that they're casting the SAME fireball. Like, I dunno, maybe the sorc can turn the ground it strikes into a flaming area for a bit for 2 sorc points or something?
A lingering effect metamagic would be super cool but also incredibly difficult considering how vastly different all the spells are, unless you make it something generic as "CHA mod Force damage if a creature ends its turn in the area with a minimum area size of 5x5" or such
I mean, I would handle it by having it be:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.
Sorcerous Infusion. When you cast this spell, you may expend 1 or more sorcery points. A patch of burning land remains where the spell hit afterwards. It deals 1d8 fire damage for 1 turn for every 5 feet of movement moved in that area and whenever a creature starts their turn there. For every additional sorcery point spent increase the damage dealt by 1 and the number of turns by 1.
* - (a tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur)
Also. I REALLY insist on 'Magi-Magi-Pretty-Destro-Blast' for the Sorc cantrip. If only to see how many people can be convinced to actually say it in a 'serious' and 'dark' setting. Imagine your party edgelord who rolled a shadow sorcerer having to shout that out every time he tries to make an attack.
Magi-Magi-Pretty-Destro-Blast? Flavor mage armor as a transformation sequence?
I'm already playing a Magical Girl using Circle of Stars druid
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You asked me to prove my point, so rather than reverting to accusing me of being dishonest, maybe could actually try refuting some of my points or even you know, proving your own?
Heighten spell costs 3 SP, which is only 3 times a day at level 9 or 6 times per long rest at level 18 (unless you start burning slots), and you don't get to you know choose what they roll.
I'm not sure why I'm bothering at this point, because I have indeed read the thread. Did you actually read my last post? Because it seems like you missed the main point, which is not the specifics of what sorcerers can do that other classes can't, but (again) is what sorcerers can and can't do balanced relative to the other classes?
The fighter comparison seems very strange to me because the two classes are basically polar opposites. But sure, if that's what you want then go ahead. So go on, prove to me why sorcerers are or aren't balanced with fighters and if not how you would change them?
PS In case it wasn't clear, I'm arguing for an official backport of origin spell lists to the pre-Tasha's sorcerer subclasses. This may not fix all the balance issues but it would sure be a great start.
I want you to consider two things, A: Power and identity are two different things, if a sorcerers mechanical identity is an unfocused wizard with less actual spells known but some nifty subclass esque features they can use a handful of times a day, then that's not good enough. B: This thread has 141 replies by 30 people, the Poll has 51 votes and it has something like 15.5 hundred views. If that many people think there's an issue then clearly there is something to it.
Also you can only use portent twice per day, and only at 9th level can you use 3 Heightened spell, unless for god knows what reason your turning spell slots into sorcery points. In addition disadvantage is a lot less useful cause you could just turn an 18 into a 17 and accomplish nothing, certainty is a very strong mechanical benefit.
I'm not sure who this is replying to, but if it's me then I accept there's an issue with the sorcerer and have made clear my opinion on what changes I would like to see to fix it.
No it's for Wren. Though I do disagree with some of the things you've said as I believe that A: A caster who breaks all the rules is incredibly hard if not impossible to balance in a rules based system, and B: Due to A I think the sorcerer should be taken in it's a new and different direction with a new mechanical identity to fully free it from the "Wizard but not quite" dynamic it's stuck in now.
Edit: Somehow didn't say this at the start, sorry if I accidently replied to you instead.
It's cool. I agree with what you said here. To me metamagic represents the rules you have to follow when "breaking the (usual) rules of magic" if that makes sense. Which of course, as you say, is necessary in a rules based system.
I'm generally happy with the current sorcerer overall, my preferred changes would be something like:
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Happy with all of these TBH.
No spellcasting focus required might need some further thought. For example, does this mean that a dual-wielding sorcerer can cast a reaction spell freely without taking War Caster?
As far as sorcerer only spells the only one I know of is [spell[chaos bolt[/spell]?
The focus normally only provides uncosted material components, so you'd still need have a free hand for somatic, and be able to speak for verbal as normal? You could however combine with Subtle Spell however to eliminate all uncosted components?
I'm mainly thinking that it's weird for a sorcerer to become hobbled if their focus is lost even though the bulk of their power is supposed to come from within. Where a Wizard might need to have the actual feather (or a focus) in order to perform their ritual/formula to Feather Fall, for a sorcerer it seems like something they should just be able to invoke with a word (which may be more symbolic than anything else). Probably quite a minor difference in practice, but could come in handy in unusual cases.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My only issue with the 'become your own focus' thing is that I feel like focuses add a lot to the roleplay aspect. EX: My current sorcs focus is a jeweled necklace that was given to her by her mother and I'm hoping part of her development will be teaching her adopted little brother to use magic as well and making giving him a focus a big part of it. Mechanically, I can see the argument, but roleplay wise, I think you're missing out on too much potential.
I also want to comment on the 'burning spell slots' comment. Depending on the situation it can actually be REALLY useful! Like, say, burning some level 1 and 2 slots so you can convert the points into a level 4 or 5 slot (especially if you don't have any spells of those lower levels that are useful in that situation because of how limited your selection is). Or ditching a slot to get the sort points to, I dunno, twin-cast haste. It's certainly not something you should always be doing... but when you can polymorph yourself into a giant ape enough times in a single fight that the GM just stops asking if you have the spell slots for it because he KNOWS you freaking do... well... It has some very good uses.
I'd also contest that 'pre-sasha's' comment as divine souls are REALLY good because of their flexibility and being able to pick from two lists. Though I also feel that drastically accentuates the fact that they need more spells known because they're trying to work two spell lists to effectively become white mages.
Back on point though; I think the whole issue with sorc multiclassing OP'ed-ness would be to simply delay when you get the bonuses. You only take 1 level of clockwork and all you're getting out of it is Alarm and Protection from good/evil. Or with sorc points, if you made it so that you got 1 per level except for every 4th level where you'd get 2 you'd hit level 20 with 25 sorc points but someone dipping for a level or two wouldn't get any 'extra' benefit.
The 'compared to other classes' comment also seems very... short-sighted. For example, a fighter gets heavy armor, multiple attacks per round, action surges, and so-forth. Not only does this make a comparison extremely difficult but, even if it COULD be made, the classes frequently also have things that can be used outside of combat (remember that exists). For example, those wizard rolls... Not only can those be applied to basically any enemy roll or any ally roll, but they can be applied out of combat as well. Use that nat 20 to succeed a diplomacy check despite having only 2 in the stat, or use that nat 1 to make the guard fail to notice that the 'human' who just walked past them is actually three gnomes in a trench coat. Heighten spell can't do that. But okay, maybe wizards are just OP and comparing any class to them is a losing battle... But what then? Do we compare them to, I dunno, Rogue and say 'well a sorcerer is better than a rogue, so clearly sorcs don't need buffing'? Obviously not. Just because Sorc > Rogue doesn't mean that the Average Power >>>>> Sorc > Rogue (I don't know how rogues stack up on the OP/UP scale, just needed a class to put there).
I do agree that Sorcs need some distinctly SORCERER spells. Stuff that a wizard simply CAN'T get. My suggestion would be to take some current spells (not all of them by any means) and then give them an extra feature that could be used if you spent sorc points. Like, I dunno, sink a point into Shocking Grasp and you can give it a range of 30 feet, make it have advantage regardless of what the target is wearing, and make it so it halfs/stops the enemy movement. Each point you sink you can add another effect. Or darkness. Sink a sorc point into it and you can split it into two smaller spheres or remove the concentration requirement or something. I'm not saying these specific effects should be chosen, just that it's an example of some way to actually make the sorc stand out as a caster. By being able to add additional, possibly unique, effects to spells (hopefully not just upping damage or target numbers) you'd make it so that a sorc could do things that simply COULDN'T be done by non-sorcs. No matter how hard a wizard tries he can't get a simple 'Darkness' spell to not use concentration for example (don't care if they actually can or can't cause that's not the point) but a sorcerer can do so with their gut.
Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped.
Sorcerers have no use for the spellbooks and ancient tomes of magic lore that wizards rely on, nor do they rely on a patron to grant their spells as warlocks do.
People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet.
A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on.
Some sorcerers wield magic that springs from an ancient bloodline infused with the magic of dragons.
Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways.
Several quotes ripped straight from the sorcerer classes flavor text. Maybe I'm wrong about sorcerer drawing the magic from within themselves, but if I am it's because the book does everything in it's power to convince you of that.
Yeah, they really lean into the "Sourcerer" concept in 5e.
Might be neat to give Sorcerers a "raw magic" attack to represent their inherent magic. It would deal force damage, because that's what raw magic does, and maybe they could take options as they level to alter it in certain ways, like how they can alter spells. Since it's so core to the concept, you'd probably make it a cantrip so they can use it all the time. Call it... Arcane Laser. No... Magic Shot. No... Well, I'm sure there's something you could call it, anyway.
I really like this idea. A signature attack cantrip for sorcs, like EB for warlocks, that you can either add a metamagic element to automatically at the usual level-up break points along with the damage boost, or just get a reduced sorc point cost to use your existing metamagic options on (i.e. Empowered would be a freebie instead of costing one point, while Seeking would cost 1 instead of 2)
Arcane Flare?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Sorcerous Bolt, though I really don't think that's a good idea, several people have already said sorcerer should be rolled into Warlock, and giving it an EB equivalent would not help it's case.
Magi-Magi-Pretty-Destro-Blast? Flavor mage armor as a transformation sequence?
Anyways, I do kind of agree that a single signature cantrip, especially one of the 'bolt' variety that is customizable, is too... warlock-like. I prefer my option because nothing's stopping other classes from taking the spell, but a sorcerer can use said spell in ways that are unconventional. So just because a sorc and a wizard are casting fireball doesn't mean that they're casting the SAME fireball. Like, I dunno, maybe the sorc can turn the ground it strikes into a flaming area for a bit for 2 sorc points or something?
Forum DM: Okay Choir, sure you can do that but you're gonna have to make a Trolling check.
ChoirOfFire: *rolls a natural 20*
Two of the issues I've noticed while playing Sorcerer definitely have to do with Sorcery Points, or a lack thereof. The first is that, as the Sorcerer's unique class ability, everything you do depends on having Sorcery Points. Which makes sense, but having subclass abilities competing with Metamagic uses competing with spell slot creation really strains the point budget. Whereas Bard or Cleric, when they get an extra feature, they get some uses per long or short rest, and they all have their own usage pools to draw from. You have to choose between doing subclass stuff, or doing metamagic stuff.
Which leads to my second issue. Converting spell slots and Sorcery Points is a lossy exchange. You'd have to burn 5 first level slots just to be able to cast a third level spell, but if you burn a third level slot you only have enough points to cast a second level spell, or a first level spell and a cheap Metamagic (or a cheap subclass feature. Are there any that only use 1 sorcery point?). I think the whole 'slots to points and points to slots' was supposed to be how a Sorcerer competes with other full casters. 'The Sorcerer doesn't know a lot of spells, but they can cast them more' I think was the design philosophy. It gives them a level of flexibility other full casters don't have, except it also draws on your limited pool of points to do so. Which I've already described as a problem.
So, solutions. Ascendant Dragon Monk handles my first issue best, I feel, giving some uses for a feature per rest but also allowing you to desperation-fuel them with Ki points if you have to. The Sorcerer should lean into this design, allowing you to do your cool subclass stuff without making the rest of your class abilities non-functional, unless you burn spell slots. For the second, I don't have an elegant solution for, aside from fixing the exchange rates to give you the same costs going between spells and points and back. Alternatively, make the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points equation give more points after tiers 1 and 2, to prevent multiclass shenanigans. Say, at level 10, every level gives you 2 more sorcery points. This leaves the Sorcerer with a max of 30, but dips only give a limited amount. Or you could have a feature that essentially gives you wildcard slots, allowing you to cast any spell you know at lowest level that cannot be traded for Sorcery Points, thus giving the Sorcerer more spells per day. You'd have to have that be a tier 2 or higher feature, again to prevent multiclass shenanigans.
I mean, I would handle it by having it be:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.
Sorcerous Infusion. When you cast this spell, you may expend 1 or more sorcery points. A patch of burning land remains where the spell hit afterwards. It deals 1d8 fire damage for 1 turn for every 5 feet of movement moved in that area and whenever a creature starts their turn there. For every additional sorcery point spent increase the damage dealt by 1 and the number of turns by 1.
* - (a tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur)
Also. I REALLY insist on 'Magi-Magi-Pretty-Destro-Blast' for the Sorc cantrip. If only to see how many people can be convinced to actually say it in a 'serious' and 'dark' setting. Imagine your party edgelord who rolled a shadow sorcerer having to shout that out every time he tries to make an attack.
I'm already playing a Magical Girl using Circle of Stars druid
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)