I don't know if that would work balance wise...but I would be cool
My only thing is some circumstances I may want to Empower a spell...other I may want to Transmute it, kinda sucks to have to choose once and be stuck with it, but free metamagic would be great
That seems like a lot of extra work for something no one is actually complaining about. No one has complained about sorc points or even meta-magic. Just that meta-magic isn't good enough to make up for the crippling lack of spells which doesn't make any sense given how much better other full casters have it. Warlocks get mini-feats, wizards have a ton of spells, druids and clerics get all their spells and just swap them out, and bards both get more and aren't confined to spell casting (same with clerics and druids to a lesser extent). Meanwhile sorcerer, a class which exists solely to cast spells, and cast spells flexibly I might add, is in the same league as half-casters and sub-classes and their flexibility is hampered immensely by them being so limited.
The problem isn't sorc points. Sorc points are fine. The problem isn't meta-magic. Meta-magic is fine. The problem is the number of spells known which seems restricted for some arbitrary reason and meta-magic just can't make up the difference.
another metamagic change I would like to see - careful spell is a junior league version of the evocation ability Sculpt spells - why? Why not just give the sorceror sculpt spells as a metamagic they can choosem maybe for 3SP if you think it’s really a powerful metamagic. Sculpt spells is not broken for the evoker why would it suddenly be broken for the sorceror?
It's actually more powerful imo. Sculpt Spell only works on Evocation spells, which to be honest, already aren't the most efficient usage of spell slots ...but to each their own
Careful Spell applies to *all spells*
Big group of badies and allies in melee combate? Drop a Web or Hypnotic Pattern on the whole group and exclude your allies. Evocation Wizards can't do that
Sickening Radiance at level 4 is a great usage for Evocation Wizards at higher levels, but it works the same with Careful Spell since it's a save or stuck
Even a spell like Synaptic Static (Enchantment not Evocation)...there are circumstances where I would drop that on a group of baddies and allies. If we're outnumbered and a roll'd low on initiative, I may consider dropping it for the 1d6 penalty on attack rolls for any who fail the save.
There is kind of a trend where wizards get a metamagic equivalent that is stronger but more limited in application, and free. Evocation gets better sculpt spell but it only works evocation spells. Enchanters can twin their spells for free but only if they are enchantments. Scribes can transmute for free but are limited by the types in their spellbook (this one can honestly be flat out better than the metamagic version but you need to be picking specific spells for your book, transmute is probably more generally flexible in casual play.) Those are the ones off the top of my head that are most directly comparable with metamagic but the 'bonus for casting within your specialty' is usually similar in concept even if it doesn't outright mimic metamagic.
I'm not trying to say that these options are better than metamagic, flexibility is certainly valuable, while the metamagic may be outperformed within a niche they can be applied everywhere rather than only in those cases. (Although I believe the ruling is careful only applies to the first save, so the web example can help them retreat but the fighter that wanted to be next to them anyway probably isn't going to appreciate it for long.) Additionally those are all subclass abilities whereas sorcery points are a core ability. Subclasses leaning into another classes territory is hardly unique to those cases, wizard just, leans in to sorcerer several times?
One thing that I absolutely, fundamentally do not and will never agree with is the notion that a sorcerer should not be on the same power level as a fighter.
“Idiotic” is the word that comes to mind to describe that argument. We should strive to make all the classes balanced. This will open up more options for roleplay.
Now, as for whether spells known, in and of itself, is a sufficient basis for comparison, let’s just look at that.
With Stinking Cloud, I can create an area denial. With Stinkiing Cloud + Careful Spell, I can create an effect which permits my melee team members to engage in combat hand-to-hand at significantly less risk of damage. I think that’s the equivalent of two spells (Stinking Cloud and Stinking Cloud + Careful Spell)..
With Quickened Hold Person followed by an attack cantrip, I can freeze an opponent and do crit damage on them all in the same round. That seems like it should count as the equivalent of an additional spell. Or, you could use that basic idea in reverse by doing a True Strike followed by a Quickened Attack Spell (maybe?) That’s the equivalent of another spell.
Subtle Spell + Misty Step. Instantly escape from grapples, silence effects, etc.
@Wren - Yeah, those are solid but they are the exceptions. How about things like... Empowered Absorb Elements? Subtle Burning Hands? Distant Jump? There are so many combinations that technically work, while failing to contribute anything of value. These are the majority, certainly. Which means that the real number of known "spells" is nowhere close to the theoretical number.
I don't have it in me to actually go through and decide for every single combination whether it's useful. That would just be my opinion anyway. You'd need a couple dozen people at least, to do it and post their results, before you could say anything meaningful. But we can intuit, at least to an extent.
@Wren - Yeah, those are solid but they are the exceptions. How about things like... Empowered Absorb Elements? Subtle Burning Hands? Distant Jump? There are so many combinations that technically work, while failing to contribute anything of value. These are the majority, certainly. Which means that the real number of known "spells" is nowhere close to the theoretical number.
I don't have it in me to actually go through and decide for every single combination whether it's useful. That would just be my opinion anyway. You'd need a couple dozen people at least, to do it and post their results, before you could say anything meaningful. But we can intuit, at least to an extent.
Did someone say that every metamagic + spell combo is the same as a new spell or are you just making a straw man argument?
My initial comment was that total spells known is a bad. way to compare because metamagic enables. Sorcerers to cast spells in new ways which are equivalent to new spells. But, I never said that _every_ metamagic + spell combination is the equivalent of a new spell. Sorcerers would be way overpowered if that were true.
@Wren - Yeah, those are solid but they are the exceptions. How about things like... Empowered Absorb Elements? Subtle Burning Hands? Distant Jump? There are so many combinations that technically work, while failing to contribute anything of value. These are the majority, certainly. Which means that the real number of known "spells" is nowhere close to the theoretical number.
I don't have it in me to actually go through and decide for every single combination whether it's useful. That would just be my opinion anyway. You'd need a couple dozen people at least, to do it and post their results, before you could say anything meaningful. But we can intuit, at least to an extent.
Did someone say that every metamagic + spell combo is the same as a new spell or are you just making a straw man argument?
What I'm trying to get at is that the reason the Sorc knows so few spells is that metamagic is intended to effectively increase the number of spells they know. The missing known spells are the price the Sorc is paying for the benefit of metamagic. But it's not a fair trade. People are saying the solution is to increase the number of known spells, but I'm saying you could increase the impact of metamagic instead and that would also work.
@Wren - Yeah, those are solid but they are the exceptions. How about things like... Empowered Absorb Elements? Subtle Burning Hands? Distant Jump? There are so many combinations that technically work, while failing to contribute anything of value. These are the majority, certainly. Which means that the real number of known "spells" is nowhere close to the theoretical number.
I don't have it in me to actually go through and decide for every single combination whether it's useful. That would just be my opinion anyway. You'd need a couple dozen people at least, to do it and post their results, before you could say anything meaningful. But we can intuit, at least to an extent.
Did someone say that every metamagic + spell combo is the same as a new spell or are you just making a straw man argument?
What I'm trying to get at is that the reason the Sorc knows so few spells is that metamagic is intended to effectively increase the number of spells they know. The missing known spells are the price the Sorc is paying for the benefit of metamagic. But it's not a fair trade. People are saying the solution is to increase the number of known spells, but I'm saying you could increase the impact of metamagic instead and that would also work.
I see two points in what you just wrote and I totally agree with the second one.
The first one, I believe, is misguided. Metamagic + Spells is the equivalent of new spells, but not in every case.
@Wren - Yeah, those are solid but they are the exceptions. How about things like... Empowered Absorb Elements? Subtle Burning Hands? Distant Jump? There are so many combinations that technically work, while failing to contribute anything of value. These are the majority, certainly. Which means that the real number of known "spells" is nowhere close to the theoretical number.
I don't have it in me to actually go through and decide for every single combination whether it's useful. That would just be my opinion anyway. You'd need a couple dozen people at least, to do it and post their results, before you could say anything meaningful. But we can intuit, at least to an extent.
Did someone say that every metamagic + spell combo is the same as a new spell or are you just making a straw man argument?
What I'm trying to get at is that the reason the Sorc knows so few spells is that metamagic is intended to effectively increase the number of spells they know. The missing known spells are the price the Sorc is paying for the benefit of metamagic. But it's not a fair trade. People are saying the solution is to increase the number of known spells, but I'm saying you could increase the impact of metamagic instead and that would also work.
I see two points in what you just wrote and I totally agree with the second one.
The first one, I believe, is misguided. Metamagic + Spells is the equivalent of new spells, but not in every case.
Since you get so few of each, you would be foolish not to (almost) exclusively pick the ones that do combine into functionally distinct "new spells" -- which really just means that your spell list and metamagic list are even shorter than they appear! I would argue that Jump isn't really a Sorcerer spell, because it doesn't meaningfully combine with any metamagic and it's not powerful enough to make up for that fact. Obviously that's a really biased take, but I hope it's illustrative of the problem as I see it.
Increasing spells known would surely help, but it seems like the most boring way to fix the problem. Making metamagic more broadly applicable, cheaper to use, and/or more broken (I jest... kinda) would be the exciting way, and obviously I prefer that.
I am gonna make a few suggestions here. A give sorcerers 20 spells known total, this way the still have the least spells known of all full caster (Except maybe the Warlock). B make metamagics scalable, so if you pump enough sorcery points into Extended Spell you can leave an effect on area for days or even weeks, and something like distant can shoot a beam literally as fire as the eye can see. C double or even triple the amount of Metamagics we know and Sorcery Points we have so that a player can affored to do things like I said in B.
Obviously this is quite powerful but I think it'd really help feel powerful.
My take on metamagic at the moment is that it's a bit like a "roll your own wizard school" in the sense that sorcerers get so few known spells and so few metamagics by default that you would be crazy not to pick spells that make the best use of your metamagics. Some examples:
Empower spell is obviously best for blasters.
Heighten spell is best for single target save or suck.
Careful spell synergises best with AoE debuffs.
Extend spell works best with buff spells.
Twin spell is probably one of the most versatile metamagics as it works with buffs, debuffs, and damage "bolts" as long a it's single target.
Quicken spell is good as well, and works best in combination with an appropriate cantrip that can be cast in the same round.
Anyway, the idea is that there is a certain "class" of spells that you specialise in by virtue of the metamagics you choose. Wizards specialise by school, sorcerers effectively specialise by metamagic+spell choice.
But the trouble is that wizards don't lose any utility by choosing a school, because they still have a huge selection of spells to prepare that can be swapped out overnight. So while an evoker wizard is awesome at blasting, they can still do all the other wizards things with provides an immense level of situational value by way of utility.
But the pre-Tasha's sorcerer has no room for *any* utility. You just have so few known spells that you can't be choosing any that are situational. And if you are the only full caster in a party (and you very often will be), well that sucks.
The Tasha's sorcerer fixes this with the additional origin spells, providing limited utility but just enough to mean that single classing a sorcerer is now a viable option.
While it is true that you could buff metamagic to balance the pre-Tasha's sorcerer, I think this is dangerous. The reason is that you also have to try to balance multiclass builds, and so if you frontload the sorcerer with more metamagic grunt, the sorcadin, sorlock combos become even more crazy OP.
The sorcerer is already a hugely powerful multiclass option, and so I would argue that buffing metamagic isn't necessary. It's the single class (pre-Tasha's) sorcerer that needs love, and I would argue that adding targeted utility via origin spells is the way to do that.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a caster’s power is based only on the number of spells they know and not what those spells are.
No, not at all. But your spells are only as good as their levels allow. Are you suggesting fixing the Sorcerer by giving them spells that punch above their spell level? Like how the Paladin and Ranger exclusives do? Moreso?
I can’t think of a reason why the sorcerer needs utility. Because the wizard has it? That’s not a reason.
We already have a magic focused damage dealer that only needs to press one button repeatedly over and over again ... it's called a warlock.
You can't buff metamagic without making OP multiclass builds like Sorcerer/Paladin or Sorcerer/Warlock even more overpowered.
Compared to *all* the other full casting classes, pre-Tasha's sorcerers don't get anything equitable in return for their lack of versatility.
The sorcerer needs versatility because it's a way of making them single class balanced with the other casters without breaking the multiclass balance. I'm not talking wizard level versatility, just more than they have now.
The Sorcerer and the Warlock are not even close to each other. The Warlock gets three spells per short rest. The Sorcerer casts more often than any other class in the game.
Multiclassing won’t be a problem because of the scarcity of SP.
»Compared to *all* the other full casting classes, pre-Tasha's sorcerers don't get anything equitable in return for their lack of versatility». Sorcerers get a lot. Just as one example, a subtle illusion. The only thing an Illusionist can match that with is Malleable Illusion. A subtle enchantment is an option though that nothing compares to. Sitting in a tavern and you want to get information from an unfriendly? You can’t just cast on them. That will probably get you in trouble with the law.
“The sorcerer needs versatility because it's a way of making them single class balanced with the other casters without breaking the multiclass balance. I'm not talking wizard level versatility, just more than they have now.”. You say that, but I’m not seeing you prove it.
The Sorcerer and the Warlock are not even close to each other. The Warlock gets three spells per short rest. The Sorcerer casts more often than any other class in the game.
Multiclassing won’t be a problem because of the scarcity of SP.
»Compared to *all* the other full casting classes, pre-Tasha's sorcerers don't get anything equitable in return for their lack of versatility». Sorcerers get a lot. Just as one example, a subtle illusion. The only thing an Illusionist can match that with is Malleable Illusion. A subtle enchantment is an option though that nothing compares to. Sitting in a tavern and you want to get information from an unfriendly? You can’t just cast on them. That will probably get you in trouble with the law.
“The sorcerer needs versatility because it's a way of making them single class balanced with the other casters without breaking the multiclass balance. I'm not talking wizard level versatility, just more than they have now.”. You say that, but I’m not seeing you prove it.
Subtle enchantment is overrated. Subtle charm person just means that they don't know it was you that charmed them until the spell ends. Charm spells have been nerfed in 5e relative to previous editions.
Also I can just invert your illusionist argument.
Evoker wizards get sculpt spell, which allows them to blast at will regardless of whether the rest of the party is in close combat. Careful spell doesn't come close to matching that (unless your entire party has Evasion).
Diviner wizards get Portent, which is basically just a better version of Heighten Spell if you roll low at the start of the day. For that matter Heighten spell has basically been superseded by silvery barbs now, which is available to bards, sorcerers, and wizards.
Yes, there are things that sorcerers do that other classes can't do. But that's basically true of any class. The question is rather, in the context of all the things that a sorcerer can or can't do, are they balanced with respect to what the other classes can or can't do.
The wizard is the easiest class to compare the sorcerer to because they both get very little outside of spellcasting. Low hit dice, no armour proficiency, minimal weapon proficiencies. Their base spell slot progression is the same.
Wizards get a better spell list than sorcerers, a much higher prepared/known spell count (25 vs 15 at L20), plus probably the best versatility in the game due to their spell book.
Sorcerers get metamagic and flexible casting, which as I've argued above is mechanically equivalent to extra spell slots in the vast majority of cases. That's it.
At level 20 those 20 SP you get as a sorcerer are equivalent to 4 3rd level spell slots, or two slots at 5th and a 4th level slot. Meanwhile the 20th level wizard gets two extra 3rd level slots (which refresh on a short rest thanks to signature spell).
In 5e the wizard and sorcerer can cast any spell they have prepared/know respectively. So in return for metamagic the sorcerer loses 10 known/prepared spells and also loses the ability to alter their spell choices overnight, and has a poorer spell list, and also loses ritual casting (which is basically free spell slots), and gets no spells back on a short rest until level 20.
Does that sound like a fair/balanced exchange to you?
If the answer is no, then the question is what to do about it.
You could give the sorcerer more sorcery points, significantly increasing the number of extra spell slots they get. But this I would argue would simply make the Sorcadin and Sorlock multiclass builds ridiculously overpowered by adding more fuel to their signature tricks.
You could give the sorcerer more survivability. d8 hit dice, maybe some armour or weapon proficiencies. Sure, but this changes the flavour of the class as it stands, which (in my opinion) is a "break all the rules of magic" caster.
You could give the sorcerer more free metamagics. Okay, this might have some potential. But the trouble is, each metamagic is only really useful with a certain class of spell. Extend spell isn't going to do anything for your fireball, and Empower spell isn't going to help you fly. So without also increasing the number of known spells, can you really make effective use of those extra metamagics?
So we get back to my point, which is that increasing the sorcerer's spell choices is just about the only way to go while maintaining both single and multi class balance.
And I think that the way WotC have done it in Tasha's is really nice. Adding 10 origin based spells for the two latest subclasses, from specific schools that can be traded out for a warlock, wizard, or sorcerer spell of the appropriate school. It makes each subclass much more flavourful, and expands the sorcerer's versatility without getting anywhere near the swiss army knife role that wizards play.
Now the Tasha's sorcerer subclasses get 15 known + 10 origin = 25 spells at level 20, which is a match for the wizard. So the Tasha's sorcerer is exchanging the wizard's massive versatility of being able to prepare spells from a spellbook overnight with having to lock in those spells each time they level (and a smaller spell list). In exchange they get metamagic. This seems like a much more balanced exchange. Arguably, you could still give the sorcerer extra free metamagics known at certain levels and still be balanced, and with the expanded spell choices they might even actually be able to make effective use of them.
The Sorcerer and the Warlock are not even close to each other. The Warlock gets three spells per short rest. The Sorcerer casts more often than any other class in the game.
Multiclassing won’t be a problem because of the scarcity of SP.
»Compared to *all* the other full casting classes, pre-Tasha's sorcerers don't get anything equitable in return for their lack of versatility». Sorcerers get a lot. Just as one example, a subtle illusion. The only thing an Illusionist can match that with is Malleable Illusion. A subtle enchantment is an option though that nothing compares to. Sitting in a tavern and you want to get information from an unfriendly? You can’t just cast on them. That will probably get you in trouble with the law.
“The sorcerer needs versatility because it's a way of making them single class balanced with the other casters without breaking the multiclass balance. I'm not talking wizard level versatility, just more than they have now.”. You say that, but I’m not seeing you prove it.
Subtle enchantment is overrated. Subtle charm person just means that they don't know it was you that charmed them until the spell ends. Charm spells have been nerfed in 5e relative to previous editions.
Also I can just invert your illusionist argument.
Evoker wizards get sculpt spell, which allows them to blast at will regardless of whether the rest of the party is in close combat. Careful spell doesn't come close to matching that (unless your entire party has Evasion).
Diviner wizards get Portent, which is basically just a better version of Heighten Spell if you roll low at the start of the day. For that matter Heighten spell has basically been superseded by silvery barbs now, which is available to bards, sorcerers, and wizards.
Yes, there are things that sorcerers do that other classes can't do. But that's basically true of any class. The question is rather, in the context of all the things that a sorcerer can or can't do, are they balanced with respect to what the other classes can or can't do.
The wizard is the easiest class to compare the sorcerer to because they both get very little outside of spellcasting. Low hit dice, no armour proficiency, minimal weapon proficiencies. Their base spell slot progression is the same.
Wizards get a better spell list than sorcerers, a much higher prepared/known spell count (25 vs 15 at L20), plus probably the best versatility in the game due to their spell book.
Sorcerers get metamagic and flexible casting, which as I've argued above is mechanically equivalent to extra spell slots in the vast majority of cases. That's it.
At level 20 those 20 SP you get as a sorcerer are equivalent to 4 3rd level spell slots, or two slots at 5th and a 4th level slot. Meanwhile the 20th level wizard gets two extra 3rd level slots (which refresh on a short rest thanks to signature spell).
In 5e the wizard and sorcerer can cast any spell they have prepared/know respectively. So in return for metamagic the sorcerer loses 10 known/prepared spells and also loses the ability to alter their spell choices overnight, and has a poorer spell list, and also loses ritual casting (which is basically free spell slots), and gets no spells back on a short rest until level 20.
Does that sound like a fair/balanced exchange to you?
If the answer is no, then the question is what to do about it.
You could give the sorcerer more sorcery points, significantly increasing the number of extra spell slots they get. But this I would argue would simply make the Sorcadin and Sorlock multiclass builds ridiculously overpowered by adding more fuel to their signature tricks.
You could give the sorcerer more survivability. d8 hit dice, maybe some armour or weapon proficiencies. Sure, but this changes the flavour of the class as it stands, which (in my opinion) is a "break all the rules of magic" caster.
You could give the sorcerer more free metamagics. Okay, this might have some potential. But the trouble is, each metamagic is only really useful with a certain class of spell. Extend spell isn't going to do anything for your fireball, and Empower spell isn't going to help you fly. So without also increasing the number of known spells, can you really make effective use of those extra metamagics?
So we get back to my point, which is that increasing the sorcerer's spell choices is just about the only way to go while maintaining both single and multi class balance.
And I think that the way WotC have done it in Tasha's is really nice. Adding 10 origin based spells for the two latest subclasses, from specific schools that can be traded out for a warlock, wizard, or sorcerer spell of the appropriate school. It makes each subclass much more flavourful, and expands the sorcerer's versatility without getting anywhere near the swiss army knife role that wizards play.
Now the Tasha's sorcerer subclasses get 15 known + 10 origin = 25 spells at level 20, which is a match for the wizard. So the Tasha's sorcerer is exchanging the wizard's massive versatility of being able to prepare spells from a spellbook overnight with having to lock in those spells each time they level (and a smaller spell list). In exchange they get metamagic. This seems like a much more balanced exchange. Arguably, you could still give the sorcerer extra free metamagics known at certain levels and still be balanced, and with the expanded spell choices they might even actually be able to make effective use of them.
Heave you been reading this thread? I don’t think you have,, because almost everything you’ve said about how Wizards can do things Sorcerers can’t has already been addressed.
First and foremost, the Sorcerer doesn’t need to be as powerful as the wizard. Are they as powerful as other classes, for example, the fighter? Okay, that is sufficient.
“Subtle charm person just means that they don’t know it was you who charmed them until the spell ends.” Them and everybody else. I just gave a kickass way that is helpful. OBVIOUSLY, Charm Spells are not the only application. Dominate, Phantasmal Force, Sleep, Magic Jar, Illusions, there are a ton of obvious alternatives.
”Careful spell doesn’t come close to matching that” As has been pointed out REPEATEDLY, Sculpt Spell doesn’t work with Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern, and many more spells.
Diviners get Portent which is usable ONLY THREE TIMES per long rest. That’s not a lot. Heighten spell can be used much more often.
You are making arguments that were disproven already in this thread. Why? I don’t know if you realize that it comes across like you are ignoring everyone else in this discussion.
I don't know if that would work balance wise...but I would be cool
My only thing is some circumstances I may want to Empower a spell...other I may want to Transmute it, kinda sucks to have to choose once and be stuck with it, but free metamagic would be great
That seems like a lot of extra work for something no one is actually complaining about. No one has complained about sorc points or even meta-magic. Just that meta-magic isn't good enough to make up for the crippling lack of spells which doesn't make any sense given how much better other full casters have it. Warlocks get mini-feats, wizards have a ton of spells, druids and clerics get all their spells and just swap them out, and bards both get more and aren't confined to spell casting (same with clerics and druids to a lesser extent). Meanwhile sorcerer, a class which exists solely to cast spells, and cast spells flexibly I might add, is in the same league as half-casters and sub-classes and their flexibility is hampered immensely by them being so limited.
The problem isn't sorc points. Sorc points are fine. The problem isn't meta-magic. Meta-magic is fine. The problem is the number of spells known which seems restricted for some arbitrary reason and meta-magic just can't make up the difference.
There is kind of a trend where wizards get a metamagic equivalent that is stronger but more limited in application, and free. Evocation gets better sculpt spell but it only works evocation spells. Enchanters can twin their spells for free but only if they are enchantments. Scribes can transmute for free but are limited by the types in their spellbook (this one can honestly be flat out better than the metamagic version but you need to be picking specific spells for your book, transmute is probably more generally flexible in casual play.) Those are the ones off the top of my head that are most directly comparable with metamagic but the 'bonus for casting within your specialty' is usually similar in concept even if it doesn't outright mimic metamagic.
I'm not trying to say that these options are better than metamagic, flexibility is certainly valuable, while the metamagic may be outperformed within a niche they can be applied everywhere rather than only in those cases. (Although I believe the ruling is careful only applies to the first save, so the web example can help them retreat but the fighter that wanted to be next to them anyway probably isn't going to appreciate it for long.) Additionally those are all subclass abilities whereas sorcery points are a core ability. Subclasses leaning into another classes territory is hardly unique to those cases, wizard just, leans in to sorcerer several times?
One thing that I absolutely, fundamentally do not and will never agree with is the notion that a sorcerer should not be on the same power level as a fighter.
“Idiotic” is the word that comes to mind to describe that argument. We should strive to make all the classes balanced. This will open up more options for roleplay.
Now, as for whether spells known, in and of itself, is a sufficient basis for comparison, let’s just look at that.
With Stinking Cloud, I can create an area denial. With Stinkiing Cloud + Careful Spell, I can create an effect which permits my melee team members to engage in combat hand-to-hand at significantly less risk of damage. I think that’s the equivalent of two spells (Stinking Cloud and Stinking Cloud + Careful Spell)..
With Quickened Hold Person followed by an attack cantrip, I can freeze an opponent and do crit damage on them all in the same round. That seems like it should count as the equivalent of an additional spell. Or, you could use that basic idea in reverse by doing a True Strike followed by a Quickened Attack Spell (maybe?) That’s the equivalent of another spell.
Subtle Spell + Misty Step. Instantly escape from grapples, silence effects, etc.
.
Have we been reading the same thread?
@Wren - Yeah, those are solid but they are the exceptions. How about things like... Empowered Absorb Elements? Subtle Burning Hands? Distant Jump? There are so many combinations that technically work, while failing to contribute anything of value. These are the majority, certainly. Which means that the real number of known "spells" is nowhere close to the theoretical number.
I don't have it in me to actually go through and decide for every single combination whether it's useful. That would just be my opinion anyway. You'd need a couple dozen people at least, to do it and post their results, before you could say anything meaningful. But we can intuit, at least to an extent.
Did someone say that every metamagic + spell combo is the same as a new spell or are you just making a straw man argument?
My initial comment was that total spells known is a bad. way to compare because metamagic enables. Sorcerers to cast spells in new ways which are equivalent to new spells. But, I never said that _every_ metamagic + spell combination is the equivalent of a new spell. Sorcerers would be way overpowered if that were true.
What I'm trying to get at is that the reason the Sorc knows so few spells is that metamagic is intended to effectively increase the number of spells they know. The missing known spells are the price the Sorc is paying for the benefit of metamagic. But it's not a fair trade. People are saying the solution is to increase the number of known spells, but I'm saying you could increase the impact of metamagic instead and that would also work.
I see two points in what you just wrote and I totally agree with the second one.
The first one, I believe, is misguided. Metamagic + Spells is the equivalent of new spells, but not in every case.
Since you get so few of each, you would be foolish not to (almost) exclusively pick the ones that do combine into functionally distinct "new spells" -- which really just means that your spell list and metamagic list are even shorter than they appear! I would argue that Jump isn't really a Sorcerer spell, because it doesn't meaningfully combine with any metamagic and it's not powerful enough to make up for that fact. Obviously that's a really biased take, but I hope it's illustrative of the problem as I see it.
Increasing spells known would surely help, but it seems like the most boring way to fix the problem. Making metamagic more broadly applicable, cheaper to use, and/or more broken (I jest... kinda) would be the exciting way, and obviously I prefer that.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a caster’s power is based only on the number of spells they know and not what those spells are.
I am gonna make a few suggestions here. A give sorcerers 20 spells known total, this way the still have the least spells known of all full caster (Except maybe the Warlock). B make metamagics scalable, so if you pump enough sorcery points into Extended Spell you can leave an effect on area for days or even weeks, and something like distant can shoot a beam literally as fire as the eye can see. C double or even triple the amount of Metamagics we know and Sorcery Points we have so that a player can affored to do things like I said in B.
Obviously this is quite powerful but I think it'd really help feel powerful.
My take on metamagic at the moment is that it's a bit like a "roll your own wizard school" in the sense that sorcerers get so few known spells and so few metamagics by default that you would be crazy not to pick spells that make the best use of your metamagics. Some examples:
Anyway, the idea is that there is a certain "class" of spells that you specialise in by virtue of the metamagics you choose. Wizards specialise by school, sorcerers effectively specialise by metamagic+spell choice.
But the trouble is that wizards don't lose any utility by choosing a school, because they still have a huge selection of spells to prepare that can be swapped out overnight. So while an evoker wizard is awesome at blasting, they can still do all the other wizards things with provides an immense level of situational value by way of utility.
But the pre-Tasha's sorcerer has no room for *any* utility. You just have so few known spells that you can't be choosing any that are situational. And if you are the only full caster in a party (and you very often will be), well that sucks.
The Tasha's sorcerer fixes this with the additional origin spells, providing limited utility but just enough to mean that single classing a sorcerer is now a viable option.
While it is true that you could buff metamagic to balance the pre-Tasha's sorcerer, I think this is dangerous. The reason is that you also have to try to balance multiclass builds, and so if you frontload the sorcerer with more metamagic grunt, the sorcadin, sorlock combos become even more crazy OP.
The sorcerer is already a hugely powerful multiclass option, and so I would argue that buffing metamagic isn't necessary. It's the single class (pre-Tasha's) sorcerer that needs love, and I would argue that adding targeted utility via origin spells is the way to do that.
No, not at all. But your spells are only as good as their levels allow. Are you suggesting fixing the Sorcerer by giving them spells that punch above their spell level? Like how the Paladin and Ranger exclusives do? Moreso?
I can’t think of a reason why the sorcerer needs utility. Because the wizard has it? That’s not a reason.
I've got agree with you on that one, not every class needs utility, and the sorcerer is certainly not where my mind goes when I think of Utility.
We already have a magic focused damage dealer that only needs to press one button repeatedly over and over again ... it's called a warlock.
You can't buff metamagic without making OP multiclass builds like Sorcerer/Paladin or Sorcerer/Warlock even more overpowered.
Compared to *all* the other full casting classes, pre-Tasha's sorcerers don't get anything equitable in return for their lack of versatility.
The sorcerer needs versatility because it's a way of making them single class balanced with the other casters without breaking the multiclass balance. I'm not talking wizard level versatility, just more than they have now.
The Sorcerer and the Warlock are not even close to each other. The Warlock gets three spells per short rest. The Sorcerer casts more often than any other class in the game.
Multiclassing won’t be a problem because of the scarcity of SP.
»Compared to *all* the other full casting classes, pre-Tasha's sorcerers don't get anything equitable in return for their lack of versatility». Sorcerers get a lot. Just as one example, a subtle illusion. The only thing an Illusionist can match that with is Malleable Illusion. A subtle enchantment is an option though that nothing compares to. Sitting in a tavern and you want to get information from an unfriendly? You can’t just cast on them. That will probably get you in trouble with the law.
“The sorcerer needs versatility because it's a way of making them single class balanced with the other casters without breaking the multiclass balance. I'm not talking wizard level versatility, just more than they have now.”. You say that, but I’m not seeing you prove it.
Subtle enchantment is overrated. Subtle charm person just means that they don't know it was you that charmed them until the spell ends. Charm spells have been nerfed in 5e relative to previous editions.
Also I can just invert your illusionist argument.
Evoker wizards get sculpt spell, which allows them to blast at will regardless of whether the rest of the party is in close combat. Careful spell doesn't come close to matching that (unless your entire party has Evasion).
Diviner wizards get Portent, which is basically just a better version of Heighten Spell if you roll low at the start of the day. For that matter Heighten spell has basically been superseded by silvery barbs now, which is available to bards, sorcerers, and wizards.
Yes, there are things that sorcerers do that other classes can't do. But that's basically true of any class. The question is rather, in the context of all the things that a sorcerer can or can't do, are they balanced with respect to what the other classes can or can't do.
The wizard is the easiest class to compare the sorcerer to because they both get very little outside of spellcasting. Low hit dice, no armour proficiency, minimal weapon proficiencies. Their base spell slot progression is the same.
Wizards get a better spell list than sorcerers, a much higher prepared/known spell count (25 vs 15 at L20), plus probably the best versatility in the game due to their spell book.
Sorcerers get metamagic and flexible casting, which as I've argued above is mechanically equivalent to extra spell slots in the vast majority of cases. That's it.
At level 20 those 20 SP you get as a sorcerer are equivalent to 4 3rd level spell slots, or two slots at 5th and a 4th level slot. Meanwhile the 20th level wizard gets two extra 3rd level slots (which refresh on a short rest thanks to signature spell).
In 5e the wizard and sorcerer can cast any spell they have prepared/know respectively. So in return for metamagic the sorcerer loses 10 known/prepared spells and also loses the ability to alter their spell choices overnight, and has a poorer spell list, and also loses ritual casting (which is basically free spell slots), and gets no spells back on a short rest until level 20.
Does that sound like a fair/balanced exchange to you?
If the answer is no, then the question is what to do about it.
You could give the sorcerer more sorcery points, significantly increasing the number of extra spell slots they get. But this I would argue would simply make the Sorcadin and Sorlock multiclass builds ridiculously overpowered by adding more fuel to their signature tricks.
You could give the sorcerer more survivability. d8 hit dice, maybe some armour or weapon proficiencies. Sure, but this changes the flavour of the class as it stands, which (in my opinion) is a "break all the rules of magic" caster.
You could give the sorcerer more free metamagics. Okay, this might have some potential. But the trouble is, each metamagic is only really useful with a certain class of spell. Extend spell isn't going to do anything for your fireball, and Empower spell isn't going to help you fly. So without also increasing the number of known spells, can you really make effective use of those extra metamagics?
So we get back to my point, which is that increasing the sorcerer's spell choices is just about the only way to go while maintaining both single and multi class balance.
And I think that the way WotC have done it in Tasha's is really nice. Adding 10 origin based spells for the two latest subclasses, from specific schools that can be traded out for a warlock, wizard, or sorcerer spell of the appropriate school. It makes each subclass much more flavourful, and expands the sorcerer's versatility without getting anywhere near the swiss army knife role that wizards play.
Now the Tasha's sorcerer subclasses get 15 known + 10 origin = 25 spells at level 20, which is a match for the wizard. So the Tasha's sorcerer is exchanging the wizard's massive versatility of being able to prepare spells from a spellbook overnight with having to lock in those spells each time they level (and a smaller spell list). In exchange they get metamagic. This seems like a much more balanced exchange. Arguably, you could still give the sorcerer extra free metamagics known at certain levels and still be balanced, and with the expanded spell choices they might even actually be able to make effective use of them.
Heave you been reading this thread? I don’t think you have,, because almost everything you’ve said about how Wizards can do things Sorcerers can’t has already been addressed.
First and foremost, the Sorcerer doesn’t need to be as powerful as the wizard. Are they as powerful as other classes, for example, the fighter? Okay, that is sufficient.
“Subtle charm person just means that they don’t know it was you who charmed them until the spell ends.” Them and everybody else. I just gave a kickass way that is helpful. OBVIOUSLY, Charm Spells are not the only application. Dominate, Phantasmal Force, Sleep, Magic Jar, Illusions, there are a ton of obvious alternatives.
”Careful spell doesn’t come close to matching that” As has been pointed out REPEATEDLY, Sculpt Spell doesn’t work with Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern, and many more spells.
Diviners get Portent which is usable ONLY THREE TIMES per long rest. That’s not a lot. Heighten spell can be used much more often.
You are making arguments that were disproven already in this thread. Why? I don’t know if you realize that it comes across like you are ignoring everyone else in this discussion.