I had the same experience with the same combination. Except that sometimes I got into the vessel and ordered the imp to take me.
In any case, the DM had to set up "flying" traps, monsters with true vision, seals that triggered the faery fire spell, and the like to keep me from exploring the dungeon unopposed. But really all those solutions looked very forced and not very immersive. The DM even asked me not to use the imp, but then the build doesn't make sense. And you're not going to misplay your character on purpose.
In short, a bad gaming experience. Not because the character was bad, but because he was too good at his thing and trivialized exploration. And that was a campaign where exploration was the main theme.
That's a bummer. I'd expect either your DM would have said something when you selected Chainpact, or there would be more sensible deterrents, since your warlock wouldn't be the only person in that world who could use this feature.
Stories like these actually make the Pact of the Chain seem *really* good, which I usually see contradictory to general opinion. The OP asked if Chainpacts were worth bothering with; and I guess we have our answer.
I can see why in your campaign the build wouldn't be fun, since it removes some the challenge. But I'm curious how different this is from some of the OP combat builds, that crush through combats. Do people who play broken builds similarly get bored?
A lot of the things that wreck exploration that while a imp does better any familiar can wreck. Yeah a owl might be noticeable flying around a dungeon, but how would a spider stand out. Would it even need to stealth, hey look the orc spotted a spider, what is it going to do about it. Yeah sure, in a city in someones home maybe they smash it but in a cave complex or whatever I doubt it. They kind of need to rework familiars at their core. Though from 7th level on a wizard even without a familiar can magic eye places for a similar effect though at a higher cost. But if ruining exploration is the problem a slightly higher cost isn't going to change that.
I've always been less bothered by the warlocks familiar than the wizard 1st level spell in general, it does way way too much for one of your many spells, it should mainly be a role playing gimmick for something that is cheap and lasts until killed. Instead it provides solid benefits throughout your characters life. But your pact is a pretty large investment and core class feature so it being pretty useful bothers me less.
And the old refrain of a good DM isn't really a solid answer for this, as odds are most DMs aren't good they are just decent. And it isn't easy to balance not stomping on a class feature vs allowing too much, especially if a scouting focused character is in the party. As while they may be better at it 0 risk scouting will always rule over high risk scouting.
I had the same experience with the same combination. Except that sometimes I got into the vessel and ordered the imp to take me.
In any case, the DM had to set up "flying" traps, monsters with true vision, seals that triggered the faery fire spell, and the like to keep me from exploring the dungeon unopposed. But really all those solutions looked very forced and not very immersive. The DM even asked me not to use the imp, but then the build doesn't make sense. And you're not going to misplay your character on purpose.
In short, a bad gaming experience. Not because the character was bad, but because he was too good at his thing and trivialized exploration. And that was a campaign where exploration was the main theme.
That's a bummer. I'd expect either your DM would have said something when you selected Chainpact, or there would be more sensible deterrents, since your warlock wouldn't be the only person in that world who could use this feature.
Stories like these actually make the Pact of the Chain seem *really* good, which I usually see contradictory to general opinion. The OP asked if Chainpacts were worth bothering with; and I guess we have our answer.
I can see why in your campaign the build wouldn't be fun, since it removes some the challenge. But I'm curious how different this is from some of the OP combat builds, that crush through combats. Do people who play broken builds similarly get bored?
Really a Pact of the chain warlock is basically the best infiltrator in the game. Especially at low levels. At high levels other classes, for example wizards, have even better tools to infiltrate a dungeon... But the challenge is also different. That's why the solutions the DM brought to the table felt forced, because they were things you don't usually see before level 8-10. In any case, I think he did not handle it well. I haven't played much with that DM, but the feeling he gave me is that he panicked and started doing crazy things. Find everywhere patrols of lizarfolks accompanied by a wizard with truesight, and things like that. Nothing in the narrative justified that, or that the dungeons were specially designed to avoid invisible creatures.
Each pact has its own. the pact of the book gives you a lot of utility with cantrips and rituals. And the pacto of blade, well, it's the best for a hexblade, the most played warlock. I have never seen the one with the talisman on the table, but it has interesting things. I really don't know if there are people who consider the Pact of the chain bad, but I've never had that feeling. Maybe what happens is that they don't want to play an infiltrator, and that's why they discard it as an option. I do not know.
Regarding the OP combat builds, the big difference is that they are much more manageable. I mean, the game is mostly combat focused, and the DM has a lot of tools at his disposal to deal with that. And, in any case, a trivial combat is always more entertaining than sitting while the warlock explores the dungeon and tells you where to go and where not to go, avoiding unnecessary but fun encounters. Then you get to the essential fights full of resources, and that trivializes them. And, furthermore, no matter how OP your character is in combat, the rest also participate. If the warlock is exploring with his imp, only he is having fun.
A lot of the things that wreck exploration that while a imp does better any familiar can wreck. Yeah a owl might be noticeable flying around a dungeon, but how would a spider stand out. Would it even need to stealth, hey look the orc spotted a spider, what is it going to do about it. Yeah sure, in a city in someones home maybe they smash it but in a cave complex or whatever I doubt it. They kind of need to rework familiars at their core. Though from 7th level on a wizard even without a familiar can magic eye places for a similar effect though at a higher cost. But if ruining exploration is the problem a slightly higher cost isn't going to change that.
I've always been less bothered by the warlocks familiar than the wizard 1st level spell in general, it does way way too much for one of your many spells, it should mainly be a role playing gimmick for something that is cheap and lasts until killed. Instead it provides solid benefits throughout your characters life. But your pact is a pretty large investment and core class feature so it being pretty useful bothers me less.
And the old refrain of a good DM isn't really a solid answer for this, as odds are most DMs aren't good they are just decent. And it isn't easy to balance not stomping on a class feature vs allowing too much, especially if a scouting focused character is in the party. As while they may be better at it 0 risk scouting will always rule over high risk scouting.
Why would the Orc not squish the spider? I know I certainly would if I spot it. Not because I'd see it as threat or something, but simply because it's an annoying critter and I'd likely don't have anything better to do while standing guard. Not to mention other enemies that simply attack everything that's alive or enemies that can see it's not just a regular spider. Invisibility and flight is a HUGE boon that makes the Imp so much better than a regular familiar. They don't need to rework familiars at their core if you don't give regular familiars plot armour.
Also not sure why you are this bothered about a spell giving you actual benefits. If it were just a roleplaying gimmick it wouldn't be worth a 1st level slot. Heck, probably not even a cantrip slot. If you want a pet as roleplaying gimmick take the Urchin background and enjoy your free pet mouse.
Of course "the old refrain of a good DM" is a solid answer. Just as players need to learn how to utilize such spells properly (by reading on the internet usually), DMs need to learn how to handle them. Is it more difficult to be a DM than to be a player? Sure. Is that an excuse to just accept not being good at it and be stuck with the only two options being to ban it or let players trample over your plot? Not even close. If you want to DM, put in the effort. As player I also put in the effort to follow your plot, remember characters etc. It's not like familiars are the only thing that can ruin your dungeons. There are far far worse things players could do.
The orc wouldn't in a cave for the same reason most people don't squash every spider they see, but limit it to the ones invading their personal space. That's not plot armor, that is just not assuming every orc is some weird sadist that kills everything they see for amusement. How many spiders, insects, bats etc have to around them all the time, they aren't killing all of them.
And the issue isn't it giving benefits its giving more benefits than any other 1st level spell by a landslide, more benefits than 2nd, and many 3rd level spells as well. Its permanent at 1st level for a measly 10gp, a permanent spell at 1st level should have incredibly small benefits as it gained the massive mechanical benefit of being permanent, a permanent torch is higher level, does less and cost more in material components.
Any time a hear about people saying basic Find Familiar ruins exploration, I wonder if they are forgetting that basic familiar telepathy is relatively short-range (100ft isn't *that* far -- Firebolt can shoot farther than that).
Any time a hear about people saying basic Find Familiar ruins exploration, I wonder if they are forgetting that basic familiar telepathy is relatively short-range (100ft isn't *that* far -- Firebolt can shoot farther than that).
To be fair, that's pretty much all you need. Sure, it's not the same as voice of the chain master's unlimited range but it doesn't need to be either. 100 ft is all you need when you're hiding behind a corner and send a spider to check what's around the bend. If you reach 100 ft and find your familiar's safe? You can move to that point, and then send your familiar out to another 100 ft. This is a bit more tedious, sure, but the effect is still the same.
Regarding Pact of the Chain, when would Invisibility break for you and your Imp?
Scenario, you cast Invisibility on yourself prior to combat, your Imp is already invisible as well. Combat starts, your Imp gets in place beside creature, while both you and Imp are invisible you cast Inflict Wounds as an Action for your Imp to then deliver as its Reaction (per familiar rules). So in this scenario, would both you and the Imp now break invisibility because you cast an attack spell and the Imp delivered an attack spell? Would just the Imp become visible because the spell was directed through him? Or would only you become visible because you cast the spell and made the roll it was just delivered by the Imp?
For some reason I'm thinking it would make both you and the Imp visible but wanted second opinions. Or maybe its one of those DM calls and RAW isn't specific enough?
In any case, the DM had to set up "flying" traps, monsters with true vision, seals that triggered the faery fire spell, and the like to keep me from exploring the dungeon unopposed. But really all those solutions looked very forced and not very immersive. The DM even asked me not to use the imp, but then the build doesn't make sense. And you're not going to misplay your character on purpose.
In short, a bad gaming experience. Not because the character was bad, but because he was too good at his thing and trivialized exploration. And that was a campaign where exploration was the main theme.
I don't get this. An Imp has a stealth of +5 which is good, but hardly good enough to explore dungeons even against basic enemies at will and without risk.
Even scouting a cave with nothing but orcs while invisible, he still needs to roll a 5 to succeed on stealth, meaning on average, once every 5 rooms they are going to hear him and either kill him or raise an alarm.
Make it Goblins with Worgs and chances are he is going to get caught in the very first room he goes into.
Although I have never played it, I think the best POC is probably a Sprite with investment of the chain master throwing out poison arrows from range every turn.
In any case, the DM had to set up "flying" traps, monsters with true vision, seals that triggered the faery fire spell, and the like to keep me from exploring the dungeon unopposed. But really all those solutions looked very forced and not very immersive. The DM even asked me not to use the imp, but then the build doesn't make sense. And you're not going to misplay your character on purpose.
In short, a bad gaming experience. Not because the character was bad, but because he was too good at his thing and trivialized exploration. And that was a campaign where exploration was the main theme.
I don't get this. An Imp has a stealth of +5 which is good, but hardly good enough to explore dungeons even against basic enemies at will and without risk.
Something's gone very, very wrong if your imp is rolling a stealth check that matters.
Even scouting a cave with nothing but orcs while invisible, he still needs to roll a 5 to succeed on stealth, meaning on average, once every 5 rooms they are going to hear him and either kill him or raise an alarm.
First of all, not every DM employs infinite range perfect echolocation, even if all of your DMs do. Hearing the imp only necessarily means they hear the imp, i.e. they know something is present. That is a far cry from necessarily knowing exactly where it is. Of course, a significant number of DMs do hand out perfect echolocation, but the PCs will know that since they'll have echolocation, too, which means the imp will look, sound, smell, taste, and feel like a spider, because it will be a spider with the imp's statblock, per the imp's shapechanger ability. So whether or not the orcs immediately realize exactly where the thing they heard is, unless they're constantly obsessed with hunting down every impossible-to-see spider in their lair or alternatively have been so thoroughly trained they raise the alarm over a spider, nothing's going to happen.
The imp also has devil's sight at twice the range of orc darkvision, so in many caves, even without the invisibility, you're positing the orcs react to a sound beyond what they can see - i.e. a perfectly normal, non-invisible spider will make the same sounds. It just beggars belief that the orcs will act as you suggest.
Make it Goblins with Worgs and chances are he is going to get caught in the very first room he goes into.
Why? Can either of those climb on ceilings?
Goblins and Orcs are hardly exotic adversaries.
True, but neither is notorious for being hygienic, which is what you need to plausibly have an enemy that will react like this to a spider.
True, but neither is notorious for being hygienic, which is what you need to plausibly have an enemy that will react like this to a spider.
You know, it shouldn't be too crazy to have your enemies kill any spider. We're talking about a 1st level spell, and in a setting where magic is widely known. It's not too much of a stretch that people would be taking precautions because they're aware a spider could potentially be a spy.
True, but neither is notorious for being hygienic, which is what you need to plausibly have an enemy that will react like this to a spider.
You know, it shouldn't be too crazy to have your enemies kill any spider. We're talking about a 1st level spell, and in a setting where magic is widely known. It's not too much of a stretch that people would be taking precautions because they're aware a spider could potentially be a spy.
In any case, the DM had to set up "flying" traps, monsters with true vision, seals that triggered the faery fire spell, and the like to keep me from exploring the dungeon unopposed. But really all those solutions looked very forced and not very immersive. The DM even asked me not to use the imp, but then the build doesn't make sense. And you're not going to misplay your character on purpose.
In short, a bad gaming experience. Not because the character was bad, but because he was too good at his thing and trivialized exploration. And that was a campaign where exploration was the main theme.
I don't get this. An Imp has a stealth of +5 which is good, but hardly good enough to explore dungeons even against basic enemies at will and without risk.
Something's gone very, very wrong if your imp is rolling a stealth check that matters.
RAW the IMP needs to roll a stealth check to be hidden, being invisible does not change that.
Even scouting a cave with nothing but orcs while invisible, he still needs to roll a 5 to succeed on stealth, meaning on average, once every 5 rooms they are going to hear him and either kill him or raise an alarm.
First of all, not every DM employs infinite range perfect echolocation, even if all of your DMs do. Hearing the imp only necessarily means they hear the imp, i.e. they know something is present. That is a far cry from necessarily knowing exactly where it is. Of course, a significant number of DMs do hand out perfect echolocation, but the PCs will know that since they'll have echolocation, too, which means the imp will look, sound, smell, taste, and feel like a spider, because it will be a spider with the imp's statblock, per the imp's shapechanger ability. So whether or not the orcs immediately realize exactly where the thing they heard is, unless they're constantly obsessed with hunting down every impossible-to-see spider in their lair or alternatively have been so thoroughly trained they raise the alarm over a spider, nothing's going to happen.
RAW they know where the Imp is if he fails a stealth check. You have to be completely obscured to even attempt to hide. Being invisible does not make him hidden, it only makes him unseen. Invisibility gives the Imp the obscuration that then allows him to TRY to hide.
I don't know what you are trying to say about echolocation, but what I wrote above is how stealth works according to the rules. If you have an enemy that has blindsight (like a bat) it would automatically see the imp because the Imp would not be obscured by the invisibility. In this case the Imp does not even get to roll stealth (unless he is obscured by something else)
Moreover you are talking about a world where spiders and other familiars are used for exactly this purpose. So yes if the Orcs are lounging around maybe they would not go out of their way, but if they are guarding something they would likely hunt it down. Just like IRL it would not raise an eyebrow if I saw a small drone flying over my house, but if I was a soldier guard on a military base and saw a Drone flying over the base you bet I would try to hunt it down even though most of the time it will be a kid playing with a remote control toy.
The imp also has devil's sight at twice the range of orc darkvision, so in many caves, even without the invisibility, you're positing the orcs react to a sound beyond what they can see - i.e. a perfectly normal, non-invisible spider will make the same sounds. It just beggars belief that the orcs will act as you suggest.
Sure, so he is fully obscured if he is in darkenss outside of the Orcs vision even if he is not invisible. Again that means he can TRY to hide from the Orcs because he is fully obscured. It does not mean he automatically succeeds on that stealth check just because he is outside the range of their darkvision.
Make it Goblins with Worgs and chances are he is going to get caught in the very first room he goes into.
Why? Can either of those climb on ceilings?
Because Worgs get advantage on perception to hear the Imp. That gives them a passive perception of 19 against him which he is rolling against with a +5.
Goblins and Orcs are hardly exotic adversaries.
True, but neither is notorious for being hygienic, which is what you need to plausibly have an enemy that will react like this to a spider.
And then it moves at 20 feet per turn. Moreover whenever I see a spider I usually step on it, I imagine Orcs would either step on it, or if it is a large spider attempt to catch it and eat it (as many civilizations would IRL).
Moreover, while Orcs might leave it alone, if you are playing Goblins as presented in the MM they would almost certainly try to kill or torture it due to the "Malicious Glee" feature. The MM also notes that Goblins "torment other creatures". Likewise, according to the MM Worgs "delight in hunting and devouring creatures weaker than itself". You would have to actually play Goblins or Worgs strictly out of character for them to leave it alone.
You have to be completely obscured to even attempt to hide. Being invisible does not make him hidden, it only makes him unseen. Invisibility gives the Imp the obscuration that then allows him to TRY to hide.
Yes, that's true.
I don't know what you are trying to say about echolocation,
Echolocation is the ability to know exactly where something is by hearing it. Dolphins and beluga whales are both examples of real-world animals that have it. Humans do not have it in the real world. Your version of the game grants echolocation to everything that can hear.
but what I wrote above is how stealth works according to the rules.
But it isn't. There's no rule in the game stating that an unhidden invisible creature's location is automatically known by everyone. As we have no rules covering it, I've been instead making reference to the real world, because often in D&D when the rules don't cover something we reason about it by thinking about how it works in the real world. In the real world, if someone is asleep on the other side of a 2 foot stone wall, even if you hear them snoring you won't know exactly where they are. Now, to be clear, a DM could agree with you without violating the RAW. That's the nature of the RAW being silent on the issue. I am not claiming that RAW everyone lacks echolocation. My point is that it will vary by DM.
If you have an enemy that has blindsight (like a bat) it would automatically see the imp because the Imp would not be obscured by the invisibility. In this case the Imp does not even get to roll stealth (unless he is obscured by something else)
Generally true, yes, rendering the whole conversation moot, as the invisible condition is being countered.
Moreover you are talking about a world where spiders and other familiars are used for exactly this purpose.
Yes, but so is every other animal. It beggars belief that orcs would seek to eradicate literally every animal in a cave.
So yes if the Orcs are loinging around maybe they would not go out of their way, but if they are guarding something they would likely hunt it down.
Then the party will have a trivial time scouting, as the orcs will all be suffering from multiple levels of exhaustion from trying to kill every single bug in a cave. And all the worms, let's not forget the worms.
Just like IRL it would not raise an eyebrow if I saw a small drone flying over my house, but if I was a soldier guard on a military base and saw a Drone flying over the base you bet I would try to hunt it down even though most of the time it will be a kid playing with a remote control toy.
That's one drone, not a bare minimum of multiple tens of thousands of tiny creepy-crawlies.
Sure, so he is fully obscured if he is in darkenss outside of the Orcs vision even if he is not invisible. Again that means he can TRY to hide from the Orcs because he is fully obscured. It does not mean he automatically succeeds on that stealth check just because he is outside the range of their darkvision.
Right. But it also means, and this is important, the orcs will be fundamentally used to hearing bugs they can't see. It won't strike them as odd. And they'll have to put work into investigating.
Because Worgs get advantage on perception to hear the Imp. That gives them a passive perception of 19 against him which he is rolling against with a +5.
Sure. The Worg can hear all 1000 bugs on or in the cave's ceiling. Yay for the Worg. What's he gonna do about it?
And then it moves at 20 feet per turn. Moreover whenever I see a spider I usually step on it, I imagine Orcs would either step on it, or if it is a large spider attempt to catch it and eat it (as many civilizations would IRL).
You already admitted they can't walk on the ceiling, so good luck with that.
Moreover, while Orcs might leave it alone, if you are playing Goblins they would likely kill it due to the "Malicious Glee" feature and that according to the MM they "torment other creatures". You would have to actually play Goblins out of character for them to leave it alone.
Also generally can't walk on ceilings.
It's a lot of work to seriously contemplate exterminating an entire cave, including everything that can burrow. Looney tunes amounts of work. I would straight-up accuse a DM of metagaming in most circumstances if their orcs and goblins suddenly developed habits like you're describing.
Final note: I've never personally seen any DM in any TTRPG give every creature in their world echolocation. You're not the first person on this forum to post like of course it's the most natural thing in the world for a DM to do, but I'm routinely amazed by how many of you are adamant that all DMs are like that. I don't know where you're finding DMs this, well, weird, in such numbers. I am in 2 campaigns right now, and neither of my DMs lets everything on the planet automatically know the location of everything on the planet that hasn't taken the Hide action. What a bizarre proposition.
Echolocation is the ability to know exactly where something is by hearing it. Dolphins and beluga whales are both examples of real-world animals that have it. Humans do not have it in the real world. Your version of the game grants echolocation to everything that can hear.
To start with that is not what echolocation is, echolocation is detecting something is based on hearing noises you make reflected off of that thing. The thing in question can be completely silent and echolocation still works. It has nothing to do with hearing noises made by someone/something else.
My version of the game grants the abilities given by the rules, there are lots of rules that do not follow real life and many, many examples of physics-breaking rules that are far, far less believable than this. The fact that you can hit a 3 foot tall child with a longbow from 600 feet away half the time or the fact you can be stabbed by a dagger 20 times and still run full speed better yet that you can stabbed so many times that you go unconscious from wounds and be 100% better after resting for an hour. Or that you could not only survive an attack by a brown bear but have virtually no chance of losing a one-on-one fight with such a beast using only primitive weapons (or no weapons!). These examples are all a lot less believable than saying you know where someone is based on sound they are making, especially when you are a trained combatant.
Blindsight is different and with blindsight you can not even TRY to hide. That is the equivalent of echolocation in the game.
But it isn't. There's no rule in the game stating that an unhidden invisible creature's location is automatically known by everyone.
If you took an action to hide then your location is not known by everyone, only by those with a higher passive perception than your stealth roll.
Yes there is a rule, or more correctly a series of rules. Being hidden is being unseen and unhidden. You make a roll to hide. If you fail that roll then you are either seen or heard or both (or "signs of your passage" are seen). If you are seen, well obviously you are in the location you or signs of passage are seen. If you are heard that means you made a noise, if you made a noise then the enemy knows where you are. That is all in the rules (albeit not all in the same place)
Yes, but so is every other animal. It beggars belief that orcs would seek to eradicate literally every animal in a cave.
How many animals would you allow to roam free in your house, excluding your pets?
Then the party will have a trivial time scouting, as the orcs will all be suffering from multiple levels of exhaustion from trying to kill every single bug in a cave. And all the worms, let's not forget the worms.
No it doesn't. To start with the search action does not cause exhaustion. You can create a houserule that it does, but that is not RAW.
IRL caves are generally not swarming with bugs or worms beyond areas very, very close to the entrance (i.e. the living cave). There are specialized insects that have adapted to living far underground, but I think the premise is wrong, that caves are automatically swarming with insects. Outside the entrance area they are probably going to have fewer insects than your house does.
Now D&D is a fantasy world with tons of things living that are in very deep caves, in fact entire cities miles underground, but this is not relevant in a discussion centered on "real life" because that does not exist in real life.
Right. But it also means, and this is important, the orcs will be fundamentally used to hearing bugs they can't see. It won't strike them as odd. And they'll have to put work into investigating.
Sure but in terms of game mechanics this is irrelevant. RAW they can do it over and over and over again.
Sure. The Worg can hear all 1000 bugs on or in the cave's ceiling. Yay for the Worg. What's he gonna do about it?
According to the MM a Worg is going to try to hunt and kill animals weaker than it. Which means there are not 1000 bugs there to start with since there were probably few to begin with and those that were there were hunted and killed to extinction.
Final note: I've never personally seen any DM in any TTRPG give every creature in their world echolocation.
I don't either. You fail a check that means you are either seen or heard and they know where you are.
That's a bummer. I'd expect either your DM would have said something when you selected Chainpact, or there would be more sensible deterrents, since your warlock wouldn't be the only person in that world who could use this feature.
Stories like these actually make the Pact of the Chain seem *really* good, which I usually see contradictory to general opinion. The OP asked if Chainpacts were worth bothering with; and I guess we have our answer.
I can see why in your campaign the build wouldn't be fun, since it removes some the challenge. But I'm curious how different this is from some of the OP combat builds, that crush through combats. Do people who play broken builds similarly get bored?
A lot of the things that wreck exploration that while a imp does better any familiar can wreck. Yeah a owl might be noticeable flying around a dungeon, but how would a spider stand out. Would it even need to stealth, hey look the orc spotted a spider, what is it going to do about it. Yeah sure, in a city in someones home maybe they smash it but in a cave complex or whatever I doubt it. They kind of need to rework familiars at their core. Though from 7th level on a wizard even without a familiar can magic eye places for a similar effect though at a higher cost. But if ruining exploration is the problem a slightly higher cost isn't going to change that.
I've always been less bothered by the warlocks familiar than the wizard 1st level spell in general, it does way way too much for one of your many spells, it should mainly be a role playing gimmick for something that is cheap and lasts until killed. Instead it provides solid benefits throughout your characters life. But your pact is a pretty large investment and core class feature so it being pretty useful bothers me less.
And the old refrain of a good DM isn't really a solid answer for this, as odds are most DMs aren't good they are just decent. And it isn't easy to balance not stomping on a class feature vs allowing too much, especially if a scouting focused character is in the party. As while they may be better at it 0 risk scouting will always rule over high risk scouting.
Really a Pact of the chain warlock is basically the best infiltrator in the game. Especially at low levels. At high levels other classes, for example wizards, have even better tools to infiltrate a dungeon... But the challenge is also different. That's why the solutions the DM brought to the table felt forced, because they were things you don't usually see before level 8-10. In any case, I think he did not handle it well. I haven't played much with that DM, but the feeling he gave me is that he panicked and started doing crazy things. Find everywhere patrols of lizarfolks accompanied by a wizard with truesight, and things like that. Nothing in the narrative justified that, or that the dungeons were specially designed to avoid invisible creatures.
Each pact has its own. the pact of the book gives you a lot of utility with cantrips and rituals. And the pacto of blade, well, it's the best for a hexblade, the most played warlock. I have never seen the one with the talisman on the table, but it has interesting things. I really don't know if there are people who consider the Pact of the chain bad, but I've never had that feeling. Maybe what happens is that they don't want to play an infiltrator, and that's why they discard it as an option. I do not know.
Regarding the OP combat builds, the big difference is that they are much more manageable. I mean, the game is mostly combat focused, and the DM has a lot of tools at his disposal to deal with that. And, in any case, a trivial combat is always more entertaining than sitting while the warlock explores the dungeon and tells you where to go and where not to go, avoiding unnecessary but fun encounters. Then you get to the essential fights full of resources, and that trivializes them. And, furthermore, no matter how OP your character is in combat, the rest also participate. If the warlock is exploring with his imp, only he is having fun.
The orc wouldn't in a cave for the same reason most people don't squash every spider they see, but limit it to the ones invading their personal space. That's not plot armor, that is just not assuming every orc is some weird sadist that kills everything they see for amusement. How many spiders, insects, bats etc have to around them all the time, they aren't killing all of them.
And the issue isn't it giving benefits its giving more benefits than any other 1st level spell by a landslide, more benefits than 2nd, and many 3rd level spells as well. Its permanent at 1st level for a measly 10gp, a permanent spell at 1st level should have incredibly small benefits as it gained the massive mechanical benefit of being permanent, a permanent torch is higher level, does less and cost more in material components.
And no a good DM is a crap answer for bad rules.
Any time a hear about people saying basic Find Familiar ruins exploration, I wonder if they are forgetting that basic familiar telepathy is relatively short-range (100ft isn't *that* far -- Firebolt can shoot farther than that).
To be fair, that's pretty much all you need. Sure, it's not the same as voice of the chain master's unlimited range but it doesn't need to be either. 100 ft is all you need when you're hiding behind a corner and send a spider to check what's around the bend. If you reach 100 ft and find your familiar's safe? You can move to that point, and then send your familiar out to another 100 ft. This is a bit more tedious, sure, but the effect is still the same.
Regarding Pact of the Chain, when would Invisibility break for you and your Imp?
Scenario, you cast Invisibility on yourself prior to combat, your Imp is already invisible as well. Combat starts, your Imp gets in place beside creature, while both you and Imp are invisible you cast Inflict Wounds as an Action for your Imp to then deliver as its Reaction (per familiar rules). So in this scenario, would both you and the Imp now break invisibility because you cast an attack spell and the Imp delivered an attack spell? Would just the Imp become visible because the spell was directed through him? Or would only you become visible because you cast the spell and made the roll it was just delivered by the Imp?
For some reason I'm thinking it would make both you and the Imp visible but wanted second opinions. Or maybe its one of those DM calls and RAW isn't specific enough?
I don't get this. An Imp has a stealth of +5 which is good, but hardly good enough to explore dungeons even against basic enemies at will and without risk.
Even scouting a cave with nothing but orcs while invisible, he still needs to roll a 5 to succeed on stealth, meaning on average, once every 5 rooms they are going to hear him and either kill him or raise an alarm.
Make it Goblins with Worgs and chances are he is going to get caught in the very first room he goes into.
Goblins and Orcs are hardly exotic adversaries.
Although I have never played it, I think the best POC is probably a Sprite with investment of the chain master throwing out poison arrows from range every turn.
Something's gone very, very wrong if your imp is rolling a stealth check that matters.
First of all, not every DM employs infinite range perfect echolocation, even if all of your DMs do. Hearing the imp only necessarily means they hear the imp, i.e. they know something is present. That is a far cry from necessarily knowing exactly where it is. Of course, a significant number of DMs do hand out perfect echolocation, but the PCs will know that since they'll have echolocation, too, which means the imp will look, sound, smell, taste, and feel like a spider, because it will be a spider with the imp's statblock, per the imp's shapechanger ability. So whether or not the orcs immediately realize exactly where the thing they heard is, unless they're constantly obsessed with hunting down every impossible-to-see spider in their lair or alternatively have been so thoroughly trained they raise the alarm over a spider, nothing's going to happen.
The imp also has devil's sight at twice the range of orc darkvision, so in many caves, even without the invisibility, you're positing the orcs react to a sound beyond what they can see - i.e. a perfectly normal, non-invisible spider will make the same sounds. It just beggars belief that the orcs will act as you suggest.
Why? Can either of those climb on ceilings?
True, but neither is notorious for being hygienic, which is what you need to plausibly have an enemy that will react like this to a spider.
You know, it shouldn't be too crazy to have your enemies kill any spider. We're talking about a 1st level spell, and in a setting where magic is widely known. It's not too much of a stretch that people would be taking precautions because they're aware a spider could potentially be a spy.
Heck, some people just don’t like spiders.
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RAW the IMP needs to roll a stealth check to be hidden, being invisible does not change that.
RAW they know where the Imp is if he fails a stealth check. You have to be completely obscured to even attempt to hide. Being invisible does not make him hidden, it only makes him unseen. Invisibility gives the Imp the obscuration that then allows him to TRY to hide.
I don't know what you are trying to say about echolocation, but what I wrote above is how stealth works according to the rules. If you have an enemy that has blindsight (like a bat) it would automatically see the imp because the Imp would not be obscured by the invisibility. In this case the Imp does not even get to roll stealth (unless he is obscured by something else)
Moreover you are talking about a world where spiders and other familiars are used for exactly this purpose. So yes if the Orcs are lounging around maybe they would not go out of their way, but if they are guarding something they would likely hunt it down. Just like IRL it would not raise an eyebrow if I saw a small drone flying over my house, but if I was a soldier guard on a military base and saw a Drone flying over the base you bet I would try to hunt it down even though most of the time it will be a kid playing with a remote control toy.
Sure, so he is fully obscured if he is in darkenss outside of the Orcs vision even if he is not invisible. Again that means he can TRY to hide from the Orcs because he is fully obscured. It does not mean he automatically succeeds on that stealth check just because he is outside the range of their darkvision.
Because Worgs get advantage on perception to hear the Imp. That gives them a passive perception of 19 against him which he is rolling against with a +5.
And then it moves at 20 feet per turn. Moreover whenever I see a spider I usually step on it, I imagine Orcs would either step on it, or if it is a large spider attempt to catch it and eat it (as many civilizations would IRL).
Moreover, while Orcs might leave it alone, if you are playing Goblins as presented in the MM they would almost certainly try to kill or torture it due to the "Malicious Glee" feature. The MM also notes that Goblins "torment other creatures". Likewise, according to the MM Worgs "delight in hunting and devouring creatures weaker than itself". You would have to actually play Goblins or Worgs strictly out of character for them to leave it alone.
Correct. But it is also correct to state that the exact consequences of being hidden or not while invisible are not completely covered by the RAW.
Cite me the rule that says this.
This is a link to a post someone else made going over every rule we have for this situation. Spoiler alert: the rule you're asserting exists... doesn't.
Yes, that's true.
Echolocation is the ability to know exactly where something is by hearing it. Dolphins and beluga whales are both examples of real-world animals that have it. Humans do not have it in the real world. Your version of the game grants echolocation to everything that can hear.
But it isn't. There's no rule in the game stating that an unhidden invisible creature's location is automatically known by everyone. As we have no rules covering it, I've been instead making reference to the real world, because often in D&D when the rules don't cover something we reason about it by thinking about how it works in the real world. In the real world, if someone is asleep on the other side of a 2 foot stone wall, even if you hear them snoring you won't know exactly where they are. Now, to be clear, a DM could agree with you without violating the RAW. That's the nature of the RAW being silent on the issue. I am not claiming that RAW everyone lacks echolocation. My point is that it will vary by DM.
Generally true, yes, rendering the whole conversation moot, as the invisible condition is being countered.
Yes, but so is every other animal. It beggars belief that orcs would seek to eradicate literally every animal in a cave.
Then the party will have a trivial time scouting, as the orcs will all be suffering from multiple levels of exhaustion from trying to kill every single bug in a cave. And all the worms, let's not forget the worms.
That's one drone, not a bare minimum of multiple tens of thousands of tiny creepy-crawlies.
Right. But it also means, and this is important, the orcs will be fundamentally used to hearing bugs they can't see. It won't strike them as odd. And they'll have to put work into investigating.
Sure. The Worg can hear all 1000 bugs on or in the cave's ceiling. Yay for the Worg. What's he gonna do about it?
You already admitted they can't walk on the ceiling, so good luck with that.
Also generally can't walk on ceilings.
It's a lot of work to seriously contemplate exterminating an entire cave, including everything that can burrow. Looney tunes amounts of work. I would straight-up accuse a DM of metagaming in most circumstances if their orcs and goblins suddenly developed habits like you're describing.
Final note: I've never personally seen any DM in any TTRPG give every creature in their world echolocation. You're not the first person on this forum to post like of course it's the most natural thing in the world for a DM to do, but I'm routinely amazed by how many of you are adamant that all DMs are like that. I don't know where you're finding DMs this, well, weird, in such numbers. I am in 2 campaigns right now, and neither of my DMs lets everything on the planet automatically know the location of everything on the planet that hasn't taken the Hide action. What a bizarre proposition.
so no one knows about the invisibility question and you're all stuck on if a spider is something an Orc would kill...gotcha.
Could you perhaps repeat the question? (I think I got lost and the spider ate it.)
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PHB page 177:
"you give away your position if you make a noise"
To start with that is not what echolocation is, echolocation is detecting something is based on hearing noises you make reflected off of that thing. The thing in question can be completely silent and echolocation still works. It has nothing to do with hearing noises made by someone/something else.
My version of the game grants the abilities given by the rules, there are lots of rules that do not follow real life and many, many examples of physics-breaking rules that are far, far less believable than this. The fact that you can hit a 3 foot tall child with a longbow from 600 feet away half the time or the fact you can be stabbed by a dagger 20 times and still run full speed better yet that you can stabbed so many times that you go unconscious from wounds and be 100% better after resting for an hour. Or that you could not only survive an attack by a brown bear but have virtually no chance of losing a one-on-one fight with such a beast using only primitive weapons (or no weapons!). These examples are all a lot less believable than saying you know where someone is based on sound they are making, especially when you are a trained combatant.
Blindsight is different and with blindsight you can not even TRY to hide. That is the equivalent of echolocation in the game.
If you took an action to hide then your location is not known by everyone, only by those with a higher passive perception than your stealth roll.
Yes there is a rule, or more correctly a series of rules. Being hidden is being unseen and unhidden. You make a roll to hide. If you fail that roll then you are either seen or heard or both (or "signs of your passage" are seen). If you are seen, well obviously you are in the location you or signs of passage are seen. If you are heard that means you made a noise, if you made a noise then the enemy knows where you are. That is all in the rules (albeit not all in the same place)
How many animals would you allow to roam free in your house, excluding your pets?
No it doesn't. To start with the search action does not cause exhaustion. You can create a houserule that it does, but that is not RAW.
IRL caves are generally not swarming with bugs or worms beyond areas very, very close to the entrance (i.e. the living cave). There are specialized insects that have adapted to living far underground, but I think the premise is wrong, that caves are automatically swarming with insects. Outside the entrance area they are probably going to have fewer insects than your house does.
Now D&D is a fantasy world with tons of things living that are in very deep caves, in fact entire cities miles underground, but this is not relevant in a discussion centered on "real life" because that does not exist in real life.
Sure but in terms of game mechanics this is irrelevant. RAW they can do it over and over and over again.
According to the MM a Worg is going to try to hunt and kill animals weaker than it. Which means there are not 1000 bugs there to start with since there were probably few to begin with and those that were there were hunted and killed to extinction.
I don't either. You fail a check that means you are either seen or heard and they know where you are.