To go back to my analogy, you don't want Brand X, you want Taco Bell. You just want a hamburger from Taco Bell, a product they don't currently offer. ....
It is actually more akin to if Taco Bell didn't offer burritos and people wanting burritos, as most other Mexican restaurants do offer them. Expecting a hamburger is a bit of a labored analogy, as that is more akin to expecting wizards to offer a computer game, sure both are foods/games, but they aren't really anymore close than that. In essence the D&D Beyond tool-set is more akin to the hamburger (at least in this metaphor).
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The ability to buy PDFs are fairly much the norm on RPGs these days, so expecting Wizards to offer them (given they are one of the bigger names) isn't really asking the unexpected.
Sure, I don't expect Curse to offer them (nor wizards to offer PDFs for free), but D&D beyond has become the official place to talk about D&D specifically (at-least that I could find).
The thing is, sure PDFs are easier to pirate (not that I condone doing so), but a big thing people forget is how many of those people would never buy it anyway (those people aren't lost sales because they never were customers). How many people then are introduced or buy because of the other not so legal alternatives? While by not offering PDFs are wizards just forcing actual (willing to pay) customers to use alternate less legal versions?
It seems like D&D Beyond is a great reference/utility tool, but like many reference tools it just doesn't hold up to a book when you want a book. Thus those that want digital book (like most other RPGs offer, I'd expect for good reason) cant actually get D&D legally in that way.
I'm willing to pay for digital content, and I'm willing to pay for a subscription service. I am, however, reluctant to pay for digital content with an indefinite lifespan. Do we have any idea how long this service will exist, and what will happen when it ends? I'd be pretty bummed if rulebooks I purchased vanished into the aether in a couple years.
D&D Insider lasted for what, 7 years? Do we think that's roughly how long D&D Beyond will be up?
I still subscribe to D&D Insider.
When I asked a question similar to this upon being modded, the response was along the lines of, "What makes you think we won't be the ones creating 6th edition." They have plans for the future that indicate they're in it for the long haul. Of course, those plans can always be derailed by lack of support. So far, as Badeye revealed upon leaving Beta, their numbers have already sustained them for years to come. With D&D being as popular as it is nowadays, I feel secure saying this trend will continue as the tools improve and more features are released/revealed.
It's always a risk purchasing something online, even more so when the item you purchase is just a bunch of 1's and 0's. But that's a risk vs. reward scenario that every person has to decide for themselves. I'm confidant that this toolset is going to take D&D further than it has ever gone in the digital marketplace.
As stated, I think DND Beyond is here to stay. Since the backend is done, they could easily shuttle in 6e when it happens and make the 5e into an archive of sorts for those that still play it. Much longer than games i have purchased and websites subscribed to. as the saying goes, nothing lasts forever, but i am willing to risk that it will be here for a long time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I don't understand the PDF love (not just you, a lot of people want them). They're far from ideal. They don't reformat for different screens sizes, are useless on my phone, and generally cumbersome. DDB gives me an app that as a reader is very nice (albeit it's still in Alpha), that can be used on my phone or my tablet, and I can access the website on my Mac with windows resized if I want, all at useful resolutions.
I don't think you're wrong for wanting PDFs (personally, I don't care either way), I just think you're way overestimating the benefit they would be to WOTC's business (which is ultimately what has to drive their business decisions). They already offer the basic rules for free and the cost of entry for a new player in an established group, with just a little bit of good will, is effectively zero. A lack of PDFs is not holding D&D back.
I would be substantially more willing to pay for a PDF than I would be to pay for D&D Beyond content. If Wizards wants to make tools for their products but can't figure out how to let me use them without paying for the content again, well, then, sorry, I'm not spending any money on it.
The problem is that a tool cannot function without the rules content.
D&D Beyond could not sell a functioning toolset legally without using those rules. All other LEGAL toolsets only use the SRD (which the free version of D&D Beyond also uses).
If you had access to a robust character creator with all feats, spell descriptions, and other information about character abilities at a single click's reach, why would you ever need to buy a PHB?
An official toolset that did not require purchase of the rules content would basically be Curse (or WotC by proxy) making the PHB obsolete to a large number of people. That's why other non-licensed complete character creator tools have been issued C&Ds unless they backed off to just use the free content.
I feel like I'm invoking the mods just by bringing up that this is even a possibility, but I can already get access to all of the content, and in the PDF form I want. It wouldn't be legal for me to do so, but there's basically no consequences for doing it. Despite knowing this full well, I still bought all of the content books. For the same reason I buy games on Steam instead of pirating them. It's convenient. It lets me support the creators I care about. And in the case of RPG books, a physical product (and a full book for that matter) contain substantially more than a tool would.
I mean, a totally free character creator wouldn't remotely obsolete the Player's Handbook. A character creator would just populate a character sheet. It wouldn't contain anything about how to play, or any lore, fluff, or art.
If you didn't want D&D Beyond in the first place, that's fine. But you're the guy at the taco stand screaming and crying about hamburgers, asking for a product that was never promised or advertised. Go find a hamburger joint.
Other people have said so already, but this is a bad, and frankly lazy analogy. Maybe if I was 'screaming and crying' (Really? This is a thread about pricing discussion. I'm discussing pricing, and I like to think I've been pretty level-headed about it.) about the taco stand not serving any beverages, despite every other place in the food court doing so.
I'm tempted to compare D&D Beyond to the Juicero. A $700 machine for squeezing the 'perfect' juice out of special bags that cost something like $5 each for a single cup. Aaaaand you could just squeeze the bag by hand and get the same result. I didn't want D&D Beyond in the first place. I just wanted a character creator that didn't require me to double the amount of money I've spent on D&D. I'm not going to spend $280 to be able to make all of the characters I want. If that's the only option, I'm just going to do it by hand.
As stated, I think DND Beyond is here to stay. Since the backend is done, they could easily shuttle in 6e when it happens and make the 5e into an archive of sorts for those that still play it. Much longer than games i have purchased and websites subscribed to. as the saying goes, nothing lasts forever, but i am willing to risk that it will be here for a long time.
I think it's naive to assume any sort of online service will remain for an extended period of time. The specifications of web browsers change rapidly, and that's even more true for mobile browsers. I think there's a great chance that Beyond will be around for three years. I think every year after that, there's going to be a greater chance of support being dropped.
And three years might be enough for you- I think that's totally reasonable. But while I'm willing to use an online tool, I'm extremely hesitant to use a new online service for storage, especially when that storage going down means everything is gone, vs Dropbox where there's still a local copy on my computer.
I don't think you're wrong for wanting PDFs (personally, I don't care either way), I just think you're way overestimating the benefit they would be to WOTC's business (which is ultimately what has to drive their business decisions). They already offer the basic rules for free and the cost of entry for a new player in an established group, with just a little bit of good will, is effectively zero. A lack of PDFs is not holding D&D back.
So, I don't think I'm overestimating the benefit of PDFs, specifically because I don't care. I'm the consumer. I don't care about Wizards' bottom line. If making PDFs doesn't make enough business sense to them, fine. They don't have to make them. But not for one second will I invest in the alternative that they're pushing instead. This is, to me, on par with a game having cosmetics that you can only get through lootboxes. I think you should be able to acquire cosmetics directly. The devs disagree. Okay, cool, but I'm not going to spend money on lootboxes just because they made it the only option.
So if Wizards came out with a PDF and said it costs MSRP you would buy that no problem? You wouldn't complain that since you already have the physical you should get it for free/reduced? because that is the only way i can think of that they would even be remotely considering it. honestly, people have been asking for PDF's since 3e and they still have not done it. I don't see them doing it in the near future either, especially now with DDB in place.
You don't have to care about WOTC's bottom line as a company and that is fine. When Hasbro comes over and tells WOTC to shut down D&D because it didn't make enough money, then you can go play PF and get your hamburger there.
Curious, do you buy at a FLGS to keep it around? then that indicates you do care somewhat for their bottom line.
The tool as it exists populates the character sheet with extensive descriptions for every function of a character. A free D&D Beyond with all content unlocked would make it so a player would not need a PHB. They could build their character, have complete knowledge of every possible thing that character can do, and then rely on their DM for the rest of the rules, lore, fluff, etc. The point of a PLAYER'S handbook is that it is meant to be a resource for players. I can think of a model right now that would probably make you more happy, but with the current model, WotC wants to sell those PHBs (That model btw would be combining the PHB and DMG into one book targeted at DMs only, and instead of a PHB, sell a robust digital character management tool with all features unlocked at a flat fee). But as I said before, DDB never said it was going to be JUST a character management tool. It is a multifaceted tool that streamlines the entire gaming experience, with more features coming down the pipeline.
And yes, we all know there are illegal ways to enjoy just about any media. And you call my argument lazy? Illegal means are not what this discussion is about, and the owners and licensees of an IP should absolutely not have to consider those illegal means when pricing their own products. That should be a given. I could go to the store and steal an apple, so apples should be cheaper to account for that? Sorry, that's not a reasonable discussion point. I get that you were illustrating that you bought the stuff anyway knowing that fact, but that's how your supposed to do it. You don't get kudos for that.
And regarding my "lazy" argument, I would agree that it's oversimplified, but that's just because we're on page 14 of just this thread, and there have been others that go on just as long with the same conversation. All of these points have been brought up and debated. No new ideas are coming out, just the same "Yeah but I already bought the books. I'm mad now that I have to pay for someone else's work." At this point, the rest of us are pretty much saying, so what? Deal with it or keep playing your game the way you always have. "But I want something better!" Then pay for it. I've made an effort to not get into flame war territory and debate reasonably, but I see your comments as an attack, whereas mine were an analogy.
"Screaming and whining" was a joke. But that's how it's coming off to most of the people I talk to about this in private. This is a thread about price discussion, but as I said, the points have all been made and shot down. There are no reasonable arguments left for why anything should change. Most of the paying customers are happy.
If you don't like the product, don't buy it. I personally think you could give it more of a try. I've seen more than a few people who were skeptics at first become converts once they start thinking logically. Homebrew is almost complete, meaning soon you'll be able to 100% create a character from the PHB or any book for free with a little bit of work up front. I just think complaining is a waste of everyone's time if nothing is being truly added to the discussion.
So if Wizards came out with a PDF and said it costs MSRP you would buy that no problem? You wouldn't complain that since you already have the physical you should get it for free/reduced? because that is the only way i can think of that they would even be remotely considering it. honestly, people have been asking for PDF's since 3e and they still have not done it. I don't see them doing it in the near future either, especially now with DDB in place.
You don't have to care about WOTC's bottom line as a company and that is fine. When Hasbro comes over and tells WOTC to shut down D&D because it didn't make enough money, then you can go play PF and get your hamburger there.
Curious, do you buy at a FLGS to keep it around? then that indicates you do care somewhat for their bottom line.
I wouldn't pay $50 for a PDF. I'd pay $30 for one. Although to be honest at this point I probably wouldn't buy it just because of how much enthusiasm I've lost for D&D. I wouldn't expect to get it at a discount if I bought it now. I would expect to be able to, once a PDF is released, be able to buy them both for less than it would cost to buy them individually.
When Hasbro shuts down D&D because it doesn't make enough money, then all I'll feel is frustration towards Hasbro. I will not feel any personal responsibility. I've been burned plenty of times by investing in a service and then that service shutting down for ineffable reasons. Companies don't just want to make money, they want to make the absolute most amount of money possible. And often that means axing profitable but not-the-most-profitable programs. I have nothing but animosity for when that happens.
I do buy, mostly, at my local game store. I care way more about their bottom line than about Wizards'. They're not a huge company. They're already hurting for income as it is.
To go back to my analogy, you don't want Brand X, you want Taco Bell. You just want a hamburger from Taco Bell, a product they don't currently offer.
I'm in camp 1 for sure, but you're trying to vote with forum posts. I can't remember if it was on this thread or the other, but that has been discussed. You have every right to come here and voice your concerns, but all of these issues have been discussed ad nauseam, and there are no new ideas coming from the "This should be different" camp, since most people are new users who won't go back and read the previous posts. Hence why the frequent posters get easily frustrated. Not to be rude, but D&D is a game that caters to readers, so reading a few old posts shouldn't be that big of a deal.
The main reason forum posts are a bad way to try and institute change is that it gives a false representation of commonality. Typically, happy users chime in less. There are thousands of happy users, and maybe 10s of people making complaints. They just seem more common because happy users aren't making "Just chiming in to say great job!" posts. But anyone can create a free forum account and make a post saying "Change this and I'll buy it." That does not guarantee a sale. The point I've been making is that all indications show that sales are not suffering. The D&D brand itself is the most popular it has ever been according to PR that WotC has released. They might be lying, but I know more people playing it now than I ever have, so it certainly seems true.
So you have a small amount of disgruntled potential users VS a large proven user base who have no issue. Well, I can't say no issue. I agree that there are things that could be better, but I am patiently awaiting a lot of the promised updates, and the service as it currently exists does make my game run a lot more streamlined. But my point is that there is no real indication that the service needs to be changed. Any business is going to have people who complain.
So yes, I do believe that you should vote with your dollars. If the service isn't for you, then don't buy it. But all indications point to more people are voting with their dollars for the current service. So I think they care more about their customers.
No, they offer the product (in this case, service), but they charge too much for it / charge for it in ways that don't work for many people who want to use their service, myself included. Your analogies don't work. You're trying to make the case that criticism of D&D Beyond's price structure is invalid, and the people offering criticism of D&D Beyond's business model are idiots.
We're not idiots, we're dissatisfied potential customers. And there are a lot of us. The argument that "more people are voting with their dollars" is made with zero evidence other than "D&D Beyond hasn't failed and shut down". There could be ten times (or a hundred times) as many people who would sign on if Wizards and Curse offered book+digital bundles. Making up numbers is easy. Backing them up is hard, and requires evidence none of us on these forums has. So what I do have is my one data point: I don't like it. That's information. One person (me) is dissatisfied. But not just me. I very much doubt the other 6 people in my D&D group are going to sign on either, for similar reasons. And we all might, if the terms were better. That's money left on the table. If enough people like me post, then that's more data points. Eventually, that might factor in to corporate decision making. Who knows? To me, it's worth it to make my opinion known. It doesn't matter to me what anyone who doesn't work for the company who reads this thread thinks about my opinion. I'm communicating with the company.
If my post duplicates the points other posters have made, that is, to me, good. That shows there's a mass of people who feel the same way I do.
Note that I wouldn't be posting at all if I found D&D Beyond wholly uninteresting. I was actually really excited about it, until I saw the pricing structure. I'm criticizing D&D Beyond precisely because it is almost what I'm looking for. It's close enough to think that maybe, one day, I might drop some money on it.
Another reminder for everyone - it is against the rules & guidelines of these forums to make a personal attack against another user of the forums.
If you disagree with someone's point of view, by all means present a reasoned objection and counter argument.
We will not tolerate insults directed at other users, nor will we tolerate people engaging in an argument by belittling others on these forums.
It's not cool and not clever and will earn you formal warnings.
Now, by all means continue to debate on this topic as much as you wish, but please do so politely and with respect for those whose opinion or circumstance differs from your own.
So you bought the physical books that didn't say, promise, promote, even hint anything about getting a free or discounted digital version.
Either 1) this product meets your needs and you buy it, 2) it doesn't fit your needs and you don't buy it, 3) You like it, but don't want to buy it so you are free to develop your own personal digital version however you want, or 4) get the free account and homebrew all the books.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
So if Wizards came out with a PDF and said it costs MSRP you would buy that no problem? You wouldn't complain that since you already have the physical you should get it for free/reduced? because that is the only way i can think of that they would even be remotely considering it. honestly, people have been asking for PDF's since 3e and they still have not done it. I don't see them doing it in the near future either, especially now with DDB in place.
You don't have to care about WOTC's bottom line as a company and that is fine. When Hasbro comes over and tells WOTC to shut down D&D because it didn't make enough money, then you can go play PF and get your hamburger there.
Curious, do you buy at a FLGS to keep it around? then that indicates you do care somewhat for their bottom line.
I wouldn't pay $50 for a PDF. I'd pay $30 for one. Although to be honest at this point I probably wouldn't buy it just because of how much enthusiasm I've lost for D&D. I wouldn't expect to get it at a discount if I bought it now. I would expect to be able to, once a PDF is released, be able to buy them both for less than it would cost to buy them individually.
When Hasbro shuts down D&D because it doesn't make enough money, then all I'll feel is frustration towards Hasbro. I will not feel any personal responsibility. I've been burned plenty of times by investing in a service and then that service shutting down for ineffable reasons. Companies don't just want to make money, they want to make the absolute most amount of money possible. And often that means axing profitable but not-the-most-profitable programs. I have nothing but animosity for when that happens.
I do buy, mostly, at my local game store. I care way more about their bottom line than about Wizards'. They're not a huge company. They're already hurting for income as it is.
What is WOTC incentive to price it at $30? They still had to do all the work and this would replace the physical copy that you will not buy. Sure you could argue that they didn't have to print and ship it, so they only drop the price to $40.
they have to put an anti-piracy method in place, that costs dollars. So far, i have yet to see a way for a PDF to be secured so that it cannot be copied or distributed, but still be opened. This will take more dollars, so the price goes back up. they also have to have a team to manage that. because it is secured, people will complain that it is secured and they can't do whatever they want with a product they bought. (in reality, you just purchased a license and do not own the content). Most likely Copy/Paste would also have to be disabled, thus you couldn't copy out the parts you want to assemble and make it easier for your gaming (such as Spell cards, monster stats, etc). People will complain about this too.
WOTC now becomes a retailer instead of just a publisher.
The B&M stores would sell less copies =less revenue for them, stores would hurt more.
Online retailers such as Amazon/Walmart would drop the product from it's catalog due to low sales.
3rd party would be effected for sure (such as DDB/roll20/FG, and could be an issue for WOTC depending on the license agreements).
Why would you feel frustration at Hasbro? They want to make money to keep D&D alive. No matter what, the bottom dollar tells them at the end of the day if the division is viable. Giving away free/reduced PDF's doesn't do this, thus it gets shut down. Otherwise, they have to lay people off, that hurts individuals and the game. Players complain about the product, etc and it is a death spiral.
I am sure i am missing a lot more, but it is late and I am tired.
Edit: i am sorry you are losing enthusiasm for D&D. It is a great hobby and fun to play. I lost that too when 4e came out. I didn't come back till 5e and glad i have. Hope you find what makes you happy.
What is WOTC incentive to price it at $30? They still had to do all the work and this would replace the physical copy that you will not buy. Sure you could argue that they didn't have to print and ship it, so they only drop the price to $40.
I mean, this is exactly it. They don't have to print or ship the book. That's a huge cost-save for them. Almost definitely more than ten dollars. Not to mention, just look at the disparity between physical and PDF that other publishers offer. On DriveThruRPG, you can buy the Star Trek Adventures: Core Book for $64, or the PDF for $17. And, hell, if you buy the book you get the PDF too. Like I've said before, I have to assume that Wizards of all companies is not so hurting for margins that they couldn't possibly lower their prices for a digital version, especially since the physical books are consistently available for $30 on Amazon. I'm pretty sure I pre-ordered Xanathar's for $30.
they have to put an anti-piracy method in place, that costs dollars. So far, i have yet to see a way for a PDF to be secured so that it cannot be copied or distributed, but still be opened. This will take more dollars, so the price goes back up. they also have to have a team to manage that. because it is secured, people will complain that it is secured and they can't do whatever they want with a product they bought. (in reality, you just purchased a license and do not own the content). Most likely Copy/Paste would also have to be disabled, thus you couldn't copy out the parts you want to assemble and make it easier for your gaming (such as Spell cards, monster stats, etc). People will complain about this too.
Or they just don't try to implement anti-piracy measures, since they never work and only serve to inconvenience users. The money spent on those measures is better spent incentivizing people to buy the product in the first place.
WOTC now becomes a retailer instead of just a publisher.
The B&M stores would sell less copies =less revenue for them, stores would hurt more.
Online retailers such as Amazon/Walmart would drop the product from it's catalog due to low sales.
3rd party would be effected for sure (such as DDB/roll20/FG, and could be an issue for WOTC depending on the license agreements).
1. This is a legitimate concern, but is undercut by Amazon selling books just over half MSRP. 2. I'm not sure this would be true. Physical books have advantages over PDFs. 3. If Beyond is such a great toolset and not just a collection of content, then it shouldn't be affected. Haven't seen the other implementations so I can't comment.
Why would you feel frustration at Hasbro? They want to make money to keep D&D alive. No matter what, the bottom dollar tells them at the end of the day if the division is viable. Giving away free/reduced PDF's doesn't do this, thus it gets shut down. Otherwise, they have to lay people off, that hurts individuals and the game. Players complain about the product, etc and it is a death spiral.
You have it backwards- they don't want to make money to keep D&D alive, D&D is alive because it makes Hasbro money. Which is why, like you said yourself, the bottom dollar tells them what to do at the end of the day. PDFs might be and probably are perfectly viable (Again, so many other games offer PDFs, it's silly that there aren't any for D&D, especially since Wizards is supposed to be an industry leader.), but if they aren't the absolute most profitable thing, then they just won't do it. Your enjoyment of the product is only as necessary as it is profitable.
Still, not my problem. If, for some crazy reason, D&D books had to be sold at $100 each just to cover costs, well, sorry, I'm not buying them. D&D is not so special that I will support it no matter what, and just to be clear, 3.5 was my very first RPG, and something that I played for a lot of formative years before touching a second system. It really does mean a lot to me. But I make a distinction between the experiences it gives me and its nature as a product, and the latter has been undermining the former.
I just want a character creator that doesn't double the cost of playing the game. I don't think that's so much to ask.
I just want a character creator that doesn't double the cost of playing the game. I don't think that's so much to ask.
If all you want is a character creator, if you don't need the compendium, the monster lists, etc. Then you don't have to double the cost. You can:
-Purchase only the character creation options you want OR
-Homebrew the character options you want/need (except, at the moment for subclasses; you'd either need to wait for homebrew subclasses to be released or purchase them)
Now it still may be that DDB doesn't fit your needs, or that you don't think the prices are worth the benefit you would get. That's your right to decide.
Hi, my name is Adrian Griffin and I've been playing D&D for three years. I love the game, and when I learned about D&D Beyond I was very excited to play. I was a little disappointed to learn that I was unable to create my Bard character Jeremy, or my Barbarian Karnak, or any of my other beloved characters that I'd created using the book that I had physically bought a year ago without spending even more money on content that I already paid for legal access to. I understand if your bottom line doesn't allow for such a thing, but I would love to see an option where I can verify that I already own a legally purchased copy of the book I'm trying to access the content for, and thus gain that content on the site itself.
While on the subject of purchasing content, I'd also like to make a general suggestion for something acting as a secondary option for the Legendary Bundle: a Basic Bundle of some kind, with content from the core rulebooks but not the adventures, which would certainly make it significantly less expensive for those players looking to join in the fun but aren't ready to spend $350 on it. And when they're finally ready to fork over the rest of the cash, make a third Adventurers' Bundle, for the Adventure books and all that.
If this simply isn't reasonable, I understand, I just feel that I as a buyer of game books shouldn't have to purchase something twice even if it is less expensive the second time, and I'm also somewhat intimidated by the $350 price tag of the Legendary Bundle but am interested in buying multiple books.
Best wishes,
Adrian
Public Mod Note
(subsistcyber):
Post merged with Pricing Feedback thread. You will get more exposure here.
Hi, my name is Adrian Griffin and I've been playing D&D for three years. I love the game, and when I learned about D&D Beyond I was very excited to play. I was a little disappointed to learn that I was unable to create my Bard character Jeremy, or my Barbarian Karnak, or any of my other beloved characters that I'd created using the book that I had physically bought a year ago without spending even more money on content that I already paid for legal access to. I understand if your bottom line doesn't allow for such a thing, but I would love to see an option where I can verify that I already own a legally purchased copy of the book I'm trying to access the content for, and thus gain that content on the site itself.
This has been done to death on this and other forums and the bottom line is it is simply not going to happen. Look back through this thread and here for why.
You can clone classes in the homebrew section for personal use at not cost, however. And you can buy just the subclasses and feats, etc. that you need to create your character as well.
While on the subject of purchasing content, I'd also like to make a general suggestion for something acting as a secondary option for the Legendary Bundle: a Basic Bundle of some kind, with content from the core rulebooks but not the adventures, which would certainly make it significantly less expensive for those players looking to join in the fun but aren't ready to spend $350 on it. And when they're finally ready to fork over the rest of the cash, make a third Adventurers' Bundle, for the Adventure books and all that.
If this simply isn't reasonable, I understand, I just feel that I as a buyer of game books shouldn't have to purchase something twice even if it is less expensive the second time, and I'm also somewhat intimidated by the $350 price tag of the Legendary Bundle but am interested in buying multiple books.
Not a bad idea, but you realise you can buy just the content you need? Doesn't have to be a bundle. You can buy just a race, a compendium or a book if you want.
I was SOOOO excited to use this app from watching the new Critical Role season as the iOS is seriously lacking any decent spellbooks/character creation - but the fact that I have to now re-purchase each hardcover book I own just to access it through the app is 110% not worth it. This really weird car salesman marketing pitch of "well it's a different company so you should pay them too, for the identical content you already own" is just super grimy.
It's not identical. If it were identical, no one that already owned a book would even care this existed because what they already have would do everything D&D Beyond does.
I was SOOOO excited to use this app from watching the new Critical Role season as the iOS is seriously lacking any decent spellbooks/character creation - but the fact that I have to now re-purchase each hardcover book I own just to access it through the app is 110% not worth it. This really weird car salesman marketing pitch of "well it's a different company so you should pay them too, for the identical content you already own" is just super grimy.
How is this grimy? McDonald's is not refilling the drink you purchased from Burger King; You have to rebuy it if you want access from another retailer. WOTC did not make nor owns D&D Beyond. None of the money you paid to 'Retailer A' has come here. This is a separate retailer.
I'm not saying that anyone is an idiot, and I apologize if my patience got the best of me and that's how I came across. I have suggested that many people are operating with incomplete information or are possibly being willfully obtuse so as to make it seem like there are less options than there are.
Here is my suggestion for how you can present a better argument for your case. List all presented pricing options and explain why each of them does not work in a way that does not outright ignore the discussion that has already taken place. That way, each point can be discussed as a separate issue.
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Other than pricing, there are a few arguments that need to be respectfully set aside in order to move this discussion forward.
#1 - There seems to be a semantics disconnect when it comes to the concept of whether or not a person is "buying the books they already have again". After some thought on the issue, I've come to somewhat of a compromise on how to address this. While plenty could argue (myself included) that it is not as simple as that, and there is more content provided in the DDB version than in the physical books, it is apparent that a lot of the content is indeed redundant for people who have already made physical purchases. Due to the nature of the service as it has been presented, this is a hurdle that cannot be currently avoided, but if people on my side of the debate would accept the redundancy of much of the content, we can at least try to empathize with the other perspective a bit more.
#2 - If you are fearful of the service being discontinued, while I may personally feel that this is unfounded, you are entitled to your opinion, and you should not be mocked for making financial decisions based on possibility. It should be noted however that Curse has made no indication that a permanent independent digital file will be a product that they offer, and they likely don't have permission from WotC to offer such a product in their license agreement. If you would prefer that kind of product, those requests should be directed at WotC through their contact channels, as Curse is a separate company.
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Next, I'll do my best to provide a summary of the pricing options that have been discussed from most expensive to least. This is not because I assume anyone's intelligence or lack thereof, but to get all of this listed out on a later page of this thread for easy reference. This is by no means comprehensive, but rather my assumption of the most logical choices, as I assumed that certain combinations would be of no use to players or DMs, but they are available and it's up to the individual if that's what they want.
#1. Legendary Bundle + Master Tier - This is the most expensive option, which seems to be mostly catered to DMs who have not already made an investment into D&D yet. A user can purchase all released content, get a discount on any future content, and share that content with anyone in the same active campaign. As someone who has already made a large investment in physical content, this was not an acceptable option for me at launch.
#2. Legendary Bundle alone - This is for someone who wants all of the books in digital format, all of the monsters and spells, and all of the character creation options, but has no need for sharing, homebrew, or creating more than 6 characters at a time.
#3. 3 Core Books (and possible others) + Master Tier - This is for DMs who probably own several physical books, but want to unlock the base functionality of DDB, and want to be able to share that functionality with their players. This is the option I chose (and my players chipped in to bring down the total cost. I won't list splitting the cost as a payment option, as it could apply to any of these.). Now my entire group has access to the complete PHB that they can read at any time, and I can run a game with essentially all of the information I need. My players can create characters using any options that were purchased, and if additional options are desired, they can be added to the account with a one-time cost of $2-3, which is then subtracted from the total cost of that source if I wanted to purchase it later.
#4. PHB and DMG (and possible others) + Hero Tier - This is for players who want access to all content for a large number of different characters, but are likely playing in a game where the DM does not use DDB, or does not have content sharing enabled (the latter being kind of rude IMHO lol). I left the MM out of this because I don't see why someone who is only a player would need to buy it.
#5. 3 Core Books (and possible others) alone - This is for players or DMs who just want the 3 Core Books, but aren't going to need to share anything and aren't going to be playing more than 6 characters.
#6. PHB (and possible others) + Hero Tier - This is for players who want to unlock all core character creation options, have a digital rules reference, and will need more than 6 character slots.
#7. PHB (and possible other) alone - This is for players who want to unlock all core character creation options, have a digital rules reference, but don't need more than 6 character slots.
#8. Basic Rules + Piecemeal character options - Since the Basic Rules contain most of the character creation options, players who only plan on playing 1 or 2 characters and don't need a digital rules reference can get by with only purchasing the character creation options they need. If the cost of each piecemeal item ever totals up to the cost of the book it comes from, the book is then entirely unlocked.
#9. Basic Rules only - This is a free option for users who are playing less than 6 characters who all fit within the limits of the Basic Rules. If you are here with complaints, this is likely not a viable option for you.
#10. Private Homebrew content - As of now, everything that is locked behind a paywall can be entered into DDB as Private Homebrew for free (with the exception of sub-classes, but that is a feature that is coming soon). This is the best compromise for users who have already purchased physical books and are not able to spend more money on D&D content. The only catch is that the information has to be manually copied in from the book, but once it has been entered, it is saved to the user's account and can be referenced again at any time.
#11. Compendium Content Only - This isn't the cheapest option on the list, but I am listing it as kind of an afterthought because it does need to be mentioned that there is a "Cheaper than Amazon" option for those who only want a digital version of the books but don't need any additional features.
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If none of those options are acceptable, then there isn't any argument the pro-DDB users could make to change your mind. It's ultimately up to you to decide if you like something or not.
My reasoning for chiming in on the discussion is that it seems like several people commenting negatively are unaware of the options that they have (I may be wrong, but it just seems this way from my perspective). There is a call from these people for DDB to change their service, but I think, as I have demonstrated, that there are enough options present to where they shouldn't really have to do that, nor does it make sense for them to do so. You could argue that sales numbers could be made up or inflated, and I could argue that a lot of the repeat complaints could come from the same 3 people with multiple accounts. That latter is probably more likely (although I'm not suggesting it's true), because a failing business seems more likely to be receptive to change in order to attract new users rather than to lie just to keep the current plateau of current users from jumping ship.
Again, I apologize if my frustration gets the better of me and I come off as anything other than informative. Ultimately, I got into D&D as way to relax and have fun. I think we all can agree on that. We should all try to be better about approaching this discussion about what ultimately amounts to a silly game (albeit a very fun and personally rewarding one) with less hostility. If you have paid money and you didn't get the value you feel like you deserve, I can understand some resentment. But if you haven't paid in yet, or if you have an you are happy, then there's no reason why we can't be amicable.
I just want a character creator that doesn't double the cost of playing the game. I don't think that's so much to ask.
If all you want is a character creator, if you don't need the compendium, the monster lists, etc. Then you don't have to double the cost. You can:
-Purchase only the character creation options you want OR
-Homebrew the character options you want/need (except, at the moment for subclasses; you'd either need to wait for homebrew subclasses to be released or purchase them)
Now it still may be that DDB doesn't fit your needs, or that you don't think the prices are worth the benefit you would get. That's your right to decide.
Purchasing the character options I want is a pretty bad deal, especially for casters. My recently-minted Goblin Rogue would've run me $5 ($3 for Goblin, $2 for Charlatan background. I went with the Thief archetype which is thankfully included in the basic rules.) . My drow Warlock/Paladin that the Rogue is replacing would be, looking at the character sheet now, $6 ($2 for Drow subrace, $2 for Warlock archetype, $2 for Paladin archetype), not counting spells. Spells add another $22.
And as for adding the things in via homebrew... That's just a worse proposition that doing it on paper.
At the end of the day, yeah, what this comes down to is that these prices just aren't worth the benefit. To me. I've only ever been arguing that.
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- Loswaith
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I don't understand the PDF love (not just you, a lot of people want them). They're far from ideal. They don't reformat for different screens sizes, are useless on my phone, and generally cumbersome. DDB gives me an app that as a reader is very nice (albeit it's still in Alpha), that can be used on my phone or my tablet, and I can access the website on my Mac with windows resized if I want, all at useful resolutions.
I don't think you're wrong for wanting PDFs (personally, I don't care either way), I just think you're way overestimating the benefit they would be to WOTC's business (which is ultimately what has to drive their business decisions). They already offer the basic rules for free and the cost of entry for a new player in an established group, with just a little bit of good will, is effectively zero. A lack of PDFs is not holding D&D back.
So, I don't think I'm overestimating the benefit of PDFs, specifically because I don't care. I'm the consumer. I don't care about Wizards' bottom line. If making PDFs doesn't make enough business sense to them, fine. They don't have to make them. But not for one second will I invest in the alternative that they're pushing instead. This is, to me, on par with a game having cosmetics that you can only get through lootboxes. I think you should be able to acquire cosmetics directly. The devs disagree. Okay, cool, but I'm not going to spend money on lootboxes just because they made it the only option.
So if Wizards came out with a PDF and said it costs MSRP you would buy that no problem? You wouldn't complain that since you already have the physical you should get it for free/reduced? because that is the only way i can think of that they would even be remotely considering it. honestly, people have been asking for PDF's since 3e and they still have not done it. I don't see them doing it in the near future either, especially now with DDB in place.
You don't have to care about WOTC's bottom line as a company and that is fine. When Hasbro comes over and tells WOTC to shut down D&D because it didn't make enough money, then you can go play PF and get your hamburger there.
Curious, do you buy at a FLGS to keep it around? then that indicates you do care somewhat for their bottom line.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
The tool as it exists populates the character sheet with extensive descriptions for every function of a character. A free D&D Beyond with all content unlocked would make it so a player would not need a PHB. They could build their character, have complete knowledge of every possible thing that character can do, and then rely on their DM for the rest of the rules, lore, fluff, etc. The point of a PLAYER'S handbook is that it is meant to be a resource for players. I can think of a model right now that would probably make you more happy, but with the current model, WotC wants to sell those PHBs (That model btw would be combining the PHB and DMG into one book targeted at DMs only, and instead of a PHB, sell a robust digital character management tool with all features unlocked at a flat fee). But as I said before, DDB never said it was going to be JUST a character management tool. It is a multifaceted tool that streamlines the entire gaming experience, with more features coming down the pipeline.
And yes, we all know there are illegal ways to enjoy just about any media. And you call my argument lazy? Illegal means are not what this discussion is about, and the owners and licensees of an IP should absolutely not have to consider those illegal means when pricing their own products. That should be a given. I could go to the store and steal an apple, so apples should be cheaper to account for that? Sorry, that's not a reasonable discussion point. I get that you were illustrating that you bought the stuff anyway knowing that fact, but that's how your supposed to do it. You don't get kudos for that.
And regarding my "lazy" argument, I would agree that it's oversimplified, but that's just because we're on page 14 of just this thread, and there have been others that go on just as long with the same conversation. All of these points have been brought up and debated. No new ideas are coming out, just the same "Yeah but I already bought the books. I'm mad now that I have to pay for someone else's work." At this point, the rest of us are pretty much saying, so what? Deal with it or keep playing your game the way you always have. "But I want something better!" Then pay for it. I've made an effort to not get into flame war territory and debate reasonably, but I see your comments as an attack, whereas mine were an analogy.
"Screaming and whining" was a joke. But that's how it's coming off to most of the people I talk to about this in private. This is a thread about price discussion, but as I said, the points have all been made and shot down. There are no reasonable arguments left for why anything should change. Most of the paying customers are happy.
If you don't like the product, don't buy it. I personally think you could give it more of a try. I've seen more than a few people who were skeptics at first become converts once they start thinking logically. Homebrew is almost complete, meaning soon you'll be able to 100% create a character from the PHB or any book for free with a little bit of work up front. I just think complaining is a waste of everyone's time if nothing is being truly added to the discussion.
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D&D Beyond FoundersAnother reminder for everyone - it is against the rules & guidelines of these forums to make a personal attack against another user of the forums.
If you disagree with someone's point of view, by all means present a reasoned objection and counter argument.
We will not tolerate insults directed at other users, nor will we tolerate people engaging in an argument by belittling others on these forums.
It's not cool and not clever and will earn you formal warnings.
Now, by all means continue to debate on this topic as much as you wish, but please do so politely and with respect for those whose opinion or circumstance differs from your own.
Thank you.
SK
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
So you bought the physical books that didn't say, promise, promote, even hint anything about getting a free or discounted digital version.
Either 1) this product meets your needs and you buy it, 2) it doesn't fit your needs and you don't buy it, 3) You like it, but don't want to buy it so you are free to develop your own personal digital version however you want, or 4) get the free account and homebrew all the books.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Why would you feel frustration at Hasbro? They want to make money to keep D&D alive. No matter what, the bottom dollar tells them at the end of the day if the division is viable. Giving away free/reduced PDF's doesn't do this, thus it gets shut down. Otherwise, they have to lay people off, that hurts individuals and the game. Players complain about the product, etc and it is a death spiral.
I am sure i am missing a lot more, but it is late and I am tired.
Edit: i am sorry you are losing enthusiasm for D&D. It is a great hobby and fun to play. I lost that too when 4e came out. I didn't come back till 5e and glad i have. Hope you find what makes you happy.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Or they just don't try to implement anti-piracy measures, since they never work and only serve to inconvenience users. The money spent on those measures is better spent incentivizing people to buy the product in the first place.
1. This is a legitimate concern, but is undercut by Amazon selling books just over half MSRP.
2. I'm not sure this would be true. Physical books have advantages over PDFs.
3. If Beyond is such a great toolset and not just a collection of content, then it shouldn't be affected. Haven't seen the other implementations so I can't comment.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
Hi, my name is Adrian Griffin and I've been playing D&D for three years. I love the game, and when I learned about D&D Beyond I was very excited to play. I was a little disappointed to learn that I was unable to create my Bard character Jeremy, or my Barbarian Karnak, or any of my other beloved characters that I'd created using the book that I had physically bought a year ago without spending even more money on content that I already paid for legal access to. I understand if your bottom line doesn't allow for such a thing, but I would love to see an option where I can verify that I already own a legally purchased copy of the book I'm trying to access the content for, and thus gain that content on the site itself.
While on the subject of purchasing content, I'd also like to make a general suggestion for something acting as a secondary option for the Legendary Bundle: a Basic Bundle of some kind, with content from the core rulebooks but not the adventures, which would certainly make it significantly less expensive for those players looking to join in the fun but aren't ready to spend $350 on it. And when they're finally ready to fork over the rest of the cash, make a third Adventurers' Bundle, for the Adventure books and all that.
If this simply isn't reasonable, I understand, I just feel that I as a buyer of game books shouldn't have to purchase something twice even if it is less expensive the second time, and I'm also somewhat intimidated by the $350 price tag of the Legendary Bundle but am interested in buying multiple books.
Best wishes,
Adrian
Not a bad idea, but you realise you can buy just the content you need? Doesn't have to be a bundle. You can buy just a race, a compendium or a book if you want.
I was SOOOO excited to use this app from watching the new Critical Role season as the iOS is seriously lacking any decent spellbooks/character creation - but the fact that I have to now re-purchase each hardcover book I own just to access it through the app is 110% not worth it. This really weird car salesman marketing pitch of "well it's a different company so you should pay them too, for the identical content you already own" is just super grimy.
It's not identical. If it were identical, no one that already owned a book would even care this existed because what they already have would do everything D&D Beyond does.
I'm not saying that anyone is an idiot, and I apologize if my patience got the best of me and that's how I came across. I have suggested that many people are operating with incomplete information or are possibly being willfully obtuse so as to make it seem like there are less options than there are.
Here is my suggestion for how you can present a better argument for your case. List all presented pricing options and explain why each of them does not work in a way that does not outright ignore the discussion that has already taken place. That way, each point can be discussed as a separate issue.
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Other than pricing, there are a few arguments that need to be respectfully set aside in order to move this discussion forward.
#1 - There seems to be a semantics disconnect when it comes to the concept of whether or not a person is "buying the books they already have again". After some thought on the issue, I've come to somewhat of a compromise on how to address this. While plenty could argue (myself included) that it is not as simple as that, and there is more content provided in the DDB version than in the physical books, it is apparent that a lot of the content is indeed redundant for people who have already made physical purchases. Due to the nature of the service as it has been presented, this is a hurdle that cannot be currently avoided, but if people on my side of the debate would accept the redundancy of much of the content, we can at least try to empathize with the other perspective a bit more.
#2 - If you are fearful of the service being discontinued, while I may personally feel that this is unfounded, you are entitled to your opinion, and you should not be mocked for making financial decisions based on possibility. It should be noted however that Curse has made no indication that a permanent independent digital file will be a product that they offer, and they likely don't have permission from WotC to offer such a product in their license agreement. If you would prefer that kind of product, those requests should be directed at WotC through their contact channels, as Curse is a separate company.
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Next, I'll do my best to provide a summary of the pricing options that have been discussed from most expensive to least. This is not because I assume anyone's intelligence or lack thereof, but to get all of this listed out on a later page of this thread for easy reference. This is by no means comprehensive, but rather my assumption of the most logical choices, as I assumed that certain combinations would be of no use to players or DMs, but they are available and it's up to the individual if that's what they want.
#1. Legendary Bundle + Master Tier - This is the most expensive option, which seems to be mostly catered to DMs who have not already made an investment into D&D yet. A user can purchase all released content, get a discount on any future content, and share that content with anyone in the same active campaign. As someone who has already made a large investment in physical content, this was not an acceptable option for me at launch.
#2. Legendary Bundle alone - This is for someone who wants all of the books in digital format, all of the monsters and spells, and all of the character creation options, but has no need for sharing, homebrew, or creating more than 6 characters at a time.
#3. 3 Core Books (and possible others) + Master Tier - This is for DMs who probably own several physical books, but want to unlock the base functionality of DDB, and want to be able to share that functionality with their players. This is the option I chose (and my players chipped in to bring down the total cost. I won't list splitting the cost as a payment option, as it could apply to any of these.). Now my entire group has access to the complete PHB that they can read at any time, and I can run a game with essentially all of the information I need. My players can create characters using any options that were purchased, and if additional options are desired, they can be added to the account with a one-time cost of $2-3, which is then subtracted from the total cost of that source if I wanted to purchase it later.
#4. PHB and DMG (and possible others) + Hero Tier - This is for players who want access to all content for a large number of different characters, but are likely playing in a game where the DM does not use DDB, or does not have content sharing enabled (the latter being kind of rude IMHO lol). I left the MM out of this because I don't see why someone who is only a player would need to buy it.
#5. 3 Core Books (and possible others) alone - This is for players or DMs who just want the 3 Core Books, but aren't going to need to share anything and aren't going to be playing more than 6 characters.
#6. PHB (and possible others) + Hero Tier - This is for players who want to unlock all core character creation options, have a digital rules reference, and will need more than 6 character slots.
#7. PHB (and possible other) alone - This is for players who want to unlock all core character creation options, have a digital rules reference, but don't need more than 6 character slots.
#8. Basic Rules + Piecemeal character options - Since the Basic Rules contain most of the character creation options, players who only plan on playing 1 or 2 characters and don't need a digital rules reference can get by with only purchasing the character creation options they need. If the cost of each piecemeal item ever totals up to the cost of the book it comes from, the book is then entirely unlocked.
#9. Basic Rules only - This is a free option for users who are playing less than 6 characters who all fit within the limits of the Basic Rules. If you are here with complaints, this is likely not a viable option for you.
#10. Private Homebrew content - As of now, everything that is locked behind a paywall can be entered into DDB as Private Homebrew for free (with the exception of sub-classes, but that is a feature that is coming soon). This is the best compromise for users who have already purchased physical books and are not able to spend more money on D&D content. The only catch is that the information has to be manually copied in from the book, but once it has been entered, it is saved to the user's account and can be referenced again at any time.
#11. Compendium Content Only - This isn't the cheapest option on the list, but I am listing it as kind of an afterthought because it does need to be mentioned that there is a "Cheaper than Amazon" option for those who only want a digital version of the books but don't need any additional features.
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If none of those options are acceptable, then there isn't any argument the pro-DDB users could make to change your mind. It's ultimately up to you to decide if you like something or not.
My reasoning for chiming in on the discussion is that it seems like several people commenting negatively are unaware of the options that they have (I may be wrong, but it just seems this way from my perspective). There is a call from these people for DDB to change their service, but I think, as I have demonstrated, that there are enough options present to where they shouldn't really have to do that, nor does it make sense for them to do so. You could argue that sales numbers could be made up or inflated, and I could argue that a lot of the repeat complaints could come from the same 3 people with multiple accounts. That latter is probably more likely (although I'm not suggesting it's true), because a failing business seems more likely to be receptive to change in order to attract new users rather than to lie just to keep the current plateau of current users from jumping ship.
Again, I apologize if my frustration gets the better of me and I come off as anything other than informative. Ultimately, I got into D&D as way to relax and have fun. I think we all can agree on that. We should all try to be better about approaching this discussion about what ultimately amounts to a silly game (albeit a very fun and personally rewarding one) with less hostility. If you have paid money and you didn't get the value you feel like you deserve, I can understand some resentment. But if you haven't paid in yet, or if you have an you are happy, then there's no reason why we can't be amicable.