please take note that the Viking war axe isn't much larger then a handaxe, while yes there were the larger ones but most of the axes the viking's used in combat were the ones they used for chopping wood for use in homes. just do a google search for viking war axe.
“Viking” wasn’t a nationality nor a culture, or anything else of the sort. It was a job title, it meant “raider.” Nationally they were Danish. As such, I would rather trust the National Museum of Denmark.
What you referred to as a “Viking War Axe,” they simply call a “Viking Aged Axe.” That’s because it was a typical, every-day axe from the “Viking Period” of Danish history. Even their experts are not sure which axes were specifically used for what purposes with one very notable exception, a type of axe known as the “Dane Axe.” They know for sure that was specifically designed and wielded as a weapon. It is the closest historical example of anything even remotely close to what D&D and other fictions call a “Greataxe,” since no weapon of that name (or variant thereof) or design has been ever been found, nor does any mention of one exist in any written form and there are no known artistic depictions of any.
Dane Axes were their version (and possible progenitor) of the family of weapons the rest of Europe called “Battle Axes,” as they was specifically designed and constructed for battle and nothing else. It also matches what D&D calls a battleaxe is it could be use one-handed with a shield. Or two-handed once the shield broke.
Your typical home depot axe is a shitty weapon. Yes it's going to hurt if you hit somebody, but the problem is how unbalanced it is for fighting.
But it opens the door to the best ontological thought experiment ever presented in the annals of Weird Fiction (spoiler contains video with splatter horror, there's blood, and undead, and extra dimensional weird):
A pitchfork ain't a trident, I mean sure you can use the damage dice in melee but it ain't a thrown weapon for sure, nor would I give it the pole arm master benefits on account that it's not built with that sort of balance in mind.
If in the lore of your world, if woodsmen are the sorts who go into "those" sorts of woods where they may have to use their tool to defend themselves from wolves and fey and the like, sure give them the battle ax proficiency and go save Red Riding. Folks not of the woodsmen tradition are stuck with it as just tool usage.
A trident is essentially a sharpened pitchfork. And if you watch enough murder mysteries you will learn that a pitchfork does function just fine as a lethal weapon, at least in fiction.
And note, normal fiction, without even stepping into fantasy.
Many medieval weapons, particularly polearms or martial arts weapons were originally peasant tools adapted for combat. Later they were refined and specialized further, but their roots were as farm tools. And if you want to cite realism, it is many of the fantasy versions of weapons that are stepping into the realm of unhistorical or outright silly (looking at you, double headed axe).
Speaking of ontology, but actually no, we'll put essentially aside, melee wise a pitchfork and a trident may have similar properties (not sure on the pole arm aspect). I mean I won't deny that the proverbial "pitchfork and torches" has more menace behind it than a hay bonfire if hay is to be had or made. But that range property granted tridents in the game carrying over to pitch forks? Nope, and it's pretty clear that was key to my objection on just tridenting pitchforks.
It's a woodcutting axe, folks. Have any of you held a woodcutting axe, and then a combat axe? Whole different beasts.
I learnt that from visiting the Imperial War Museum sites in England. War hammers and war axes are much, much smaller and lighter than tool hammers and axes.
Tools are heavy and/or heavy-duty. They are designed under the assumtpion that every strike connects and delivers alls of the energy to wood or nails or whatever. If you miss, an axe will continue swinging hard. They also assume that the tree or nail is (1) not moving, and (2) not fighting back. :-) Every time you strike with a hammer or axe, you are performing the same range of motion, allowing you to get into a rhythm, which takes less energy.
Weapons have to be lighter to be more manouverable and to not tire the fighter out. They are swung around unpredictably, changing direction and energy in response to an enemy's actions (and to avoid exposing the fighter to attack when recovering from high energy swings).
The thing that surprised me the most was war hammers. They are nothing at all like Thor's hammer.
On the other hand, war darts are much bigger and nastier than the things we throw in the pub. :-)
It's a woodcutting axe, folks. Have any of you held a woodcutting axe, and then a combat axe? Whole different beasts.
I learnt that from visiting the Imperial War Museum sites in England. War hammers and war axes are much, much smaller and lighter than tool hammers and axes.
Tools are heavy and/or heavy-duty. They are designed under the assumtpion that every strike connects and delivers alls of the energy to wood or nails or whatever. If you miss, an axe will continue swinging hard. They also assume that the tree or nail is (1) not moving, and (2) not fighting back. :-) Every time you strike with a hammer or axe, you are performing the same range of motion, allowing you to get into a rhythm, which takes less energy.
Weapons have to be lighter to be more manouverable and to not tire the fighter out. They are swung around unpredictably, changing direction and energy in response to an enemy's actions (and to avoid exposing the fighter to attack when recovering from high energy swings).
The thing that surprised me the most was war hammers. They are nothing at all like Thor's hammer.
On the other hand, war darts are much bigger and nastier than the things we throw in the pub. :-)
This guy's got it.
Weapons act on speed. Tools work on mass. Low mass weapons take less energy to accelerate, and when on the end of a long lever, they hit really hard while providing a bit of range. Grab a smithing hammer (it'll look much more like Thor's stubby handle hammer). Same weight if not heavier, while under 1/3 the length.
Axes work the same way. 3lbs tops for one handed, and 7lbs tops for two handed... and I do mean tops. 5lbs is much more likely... but pick up an ax for chopping trees, and 6lbs is on the light side, with a shorter handle.
Which was why I initially treated it as the same stats as a normal battleaxe, but reasoned there would be disadvantage on the attack. Rolls.but that was too much of a penalty to that character. Switched it from disadvantage to improvised and therefore not proficient the we started seeing a more believable series of results.
Not a criticism. What do you see a Light Hammer from the Simple Weapon list as? I see it as a Cross-peen hammer as often used by smiths and carpenters. Maybe you don't and can open my eyes. Otherwise, I don't see why we need to make a special case for one tool and not all of them.
I appreciate the efforts to differentiate tools and real weapons; but I'm still going with the idea that this is the "woodman's ax" from something like Red Riding Hood. So yeah, it's a tool of a trade but in the Grimm Lore, so to speak, it's sort of cross functional as a both a wood chopper and a wolf smiter. Tools are often exaggerated in capability in myths and heroic and even gritty fantasy. Heck, firearms don't really work the way they do in most movies. Let the woodman slayeth as they choppeth.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
While realistically there's a difference between a woodman's axe and a combat axe, this is D&D. Most 'woodsmen' I would create are going to be a class with martial weapons proficiency anyway, making it moot, and if for some reason I want a woodsman who isn't a martial class, I'm fine with him not being proficient at killing people with his axe.
Man this thread is super depressing. Saga's the only one with a reasonable answer @_@
It's a woodcutting axe, folks. Have any of you held a woodcutting axe, and then a combat axe? Whole different beasts.
No, and honestly they're way too much realism in my fantasy game here. When I answered, I answered from a mechanic standard because I don't want to have a 30 post theoretical discussion with my player on the merits of heft, swing, skill, combat orientation, etc. It's a game. It's a fantasy game. Adjudicate quickly and move on, is my motto.
I do like Saga's answer, its quick, clean and makes sense.
Oh, I agree with you there, other than perhaps to go the other way with it, and question how practical most actual tridents are/were as throwing weapons....
They were probably as throwable as any other fishing spear, the problem is the 'weapon' part. The point of a trident is to increase your chance of hitting small animals at a cost of reduced power per hit. This is useful when attacking unarmored Tiny creatures, mostly irrelevant against unarmored larger creatures, and actively detrimental against armored creatures.
Speaking of ontology, but actually no, we'll put essentially aside, melee wise a pitchfork and a trident may have similar properties (not sure on the pole arm aspect). I mean I won't deny that the proverbial "pitchfork and torches" has more menace behind it than a hay bonfire if hay is to be had or made. But that range property granted tridents in the game carrying over to pitch forks? Nope, and it's pretty clear that was key to my objection on just tridenting pitchforks.
Oh, I agree with you there, other than perhaps to go the other way with it, and question how practical most actual tridents are/were as throwing weapons....
Yeah, outside of Aquaman and other Atlantean type fiction and Neptune myth, only place I've seen a trident deployed was a gladiator movie. Someone had a thread a while back about a trident and net fighting style. Did anyone actually fight that way either in war or bloodsport? I dunno, but it's a trope that works in both aquatic and sand and sandals modes. Kinda like a woodsman's ax....
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The way I read it, the retiarii - the net and trident guys - were kind of a novelty act for I suppose the Roman equivalent of boy band types. They'd be pursued in a speed vs. strength match by one of the guys with the rectangle tube shields and a gladius. Since the net guys didn't have helmets, they (whoever put the fight card together) cast the prettiest faces they could. I'm not sure about this, but I think what happened next was that so many of the guys without armor got killed by the guys with armor that the entire retiarii act - the character - was rewritten into a kind of rodeo clown.
Yeah, outside of Aquaman and other Atlantean type fiction and Neptune myth, only place I've seen a trident deployed was a gladiator movie. Someone had a thread a while back about a trident and net fighting style. Did anyone actually fight that way either in war or bloodsport?
It was a standard sort of Roman gladiator (called a retiarius), but yes, that was bloodsport, not war, it was meant to be showy rather than effective.
Not sure if it's been suggested, but I would, personally, consider a woodsman's axe used as a combat weapon to be akin to an improvised weapon. While it can be used as a weapon that isn't it's main purpose nor is it designed with that in mind.
A woodsman's axe is much heavier than an axe designed for combat due to the increased material - meant to aid in downward chopping - and its wedge shape - meant to aid in splitting the wood being cut. Compare that to a combat axe which is lighter - meant to make it more maneuverable and so as not to tire the wielder as quickly - and also more curved - meant to aid in slicing through fabric armour and flesh - and you'll see why I'd consider the woodsman's axe to be an improvised weapon.
This is where you have a decision to make: use the stats for a 2-handed axe or stat it as what it is: a tool used as an improvised weapon.
Personally, I would strongly lean toward improvised and stat it as [1d4 slashing + str] with no proficiency bonus because it's improvised but depending on why the player wants to use it as such - if they can give me a compelling reason such as backstory - I would consider going with the stats for the axe. This both makes it so that it can be used in combat and puts the onus on the player to be creative and earn the right to use it as a weapon with a weapon's stats. As for weapon type (martial vs simple) if statting it as a weapon I'd stick with the weapon type of the weapon stats being used.
Strictly in the realm of "my own opinion", of course.
I would say that being hit by a woodaxe and being hit by a battleaxe would probably deal similar damage. I would also say that you're more likely to hit with the battleaxe!
So for me it's an improvised 2-handed weapon with D10 slashing damage. No proficiency bonus (less likely to hit), but same damage if you do.
I would say that being hit by a woodaxe and being hit by a battleaxe would probably deal similar damage. I would also say that you're more likely to hit with the battleaxe!
So for me it's an improvised 2-handed weapon with D10 slashing damage. No proficiency bonus (less likely to hit), but same damage if you do.
See, that's a compromise between the two sides of the coin I suggested that I can get behind. It makes sense in my brain therefore I like. :D
Since we are discussing weapons, how many of you have a copy of Stone’s Glossary of Arms and armor? It is a good book about armour and weapons but lots of his research is outdated. I think it was originally published in the 1920s. And there is always Edwart Oakeshott books.
Since we are discussing weapons, how many of you have a copy of Stone’s Glossary of Arms and armor? It is a good book about armour and weapons but lots of his research is outdated. I think it was originally published in the 1920s. And there is always Edwart Oakeshott books.
I'm waiting on my copy of Oakeshott to arrive today!
I love how on Amazon, there was a $15 version (what I ordered), the "Mass Market Paperback" for like $50, and the original hard cover for over $800.
I would say that being hit by a woodaxe and being hit by a battleaxe would probably deal similar damage. I would also say that you're more likely to hit with the battleaxe!
So for me it's an improvised 2-handed weapon with D10 slashing damage. No proficiency bonus (less likely to hit), but same damage if you do.
See, that's a compromise between the two sides of the coin I suggested that I can get behind. It makes sense in my brain therefore I like. :D
Which is what I said, only I went 1d8 (Versatile 1d10). I actually have used that in-game for a player who was specifically using a woodsman’s axe and it worked out very well indeed.
Other than “self defense weapons” (so Daggers, Quarterstaff and Shortswords) were not allowed to be carried within town limits and had to be checked (literally like a coat check), and were kept at the town hall. But tools were openly carried about and there was a logging comunity nearby so woodsmen were often seen in town. The PC felt uncomfortable unarmed and so he went and got himself a “tool” to carry, specifically a Woodcutter’s Axe.
“Viking” wasn’t a nationality nor a culture, or anything else of the sort. It was a job title, it meant “raider.” Nationally they were Danish. As such, I would rather trust the National Museum of Denmark.
https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/weapons/axes
What you referred to as a “Viking War Axe,” they simply call a “Viking Aged Axe.” That’s because it was a typical, every-day axe from the “Viking Period” of Danish history. Even their experts are not sure which axes were specifically used for what purposes with one very notable exception, a type of axe known as the “Dane Axe.” They know for sure that was specifically designed and wielded as a weapon. It is the closest historical example of anything even remotely close to what D&D and other fictions call a “Greataxe,” since no weapon of that name (or variant thereof) or design has been ever been found, nor does any mention of one exist in any written form and there are no known artistic depictions of any.
Dane Axes were their version (and possible progenitor) of the family of weapons the rest of Europe called “Battle Axes,” as they was specifically designed and constructed for battle and nothing else. It also matches what D&D calls a battleaxe is it could be use one-handed with a shield. Or two-handed once the shield broke.
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Your typical home depot axe is a shitty weapon. Yes it's going to hurt if you hit somebody, but the problem is how unbalanced it is for fighting.
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But it opens the door to the best ontological thought experiment ever presented in the annals of Weird Fiction (spoiler contains video with splatter horror, there's blood, and undead, and extra dimensional weird):
Put your spoiler here.
Speaking of ontology, but actually no, we'll put essentially aside, melee wise a pitchfork and a trident may have similar properties (not sure on the pole arm aspect). I mean I won't deny that the proverbial "pitchfork and torches" has more menace behind it than a hay bonfire if hay is to be had or made. But that range property granted tridents in the game carrying over to pitch forks? Nope, and it's pretty clear that was key to my objection on just tridenting pitchforks.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I learnt that from visiting the Imperial War Museum sites in England. War hammers and war axes are much, much smaller and lighter than tool hammers and axes.
Tools are heavy and/or heavy-duty. They are designed under the assumtpion that every strike connects and delivers alls of the energy to wood or nails or whatever. If you miss, an axe will continue swinging hard. They also assume that the tree or nail is (1) not moving, and (2) not fighting back. :-) Every time you strike with a hammer or axe, you are performing the same range of motion, allowing you to get into a rhythm, which takes less energy.
Weapons have to be lighter to be more manouverable and to not tire the fighter out. They are swung around unpredictably, changing direction and energy in response to an enemy's actions (and to avoid exposing the fighter to attack when recovering from high energy swings).
The thing that surprised me the most was war hammers. They are nothing at all like Thor's hammer.
On the other hand, war darts are much bigger and nastier than the things we throw in the pub. :-)
This guy's got it.
Weapons act on speed. Tools work on mass. Low mass weapons take less energy to accelerate, and when on the end of a long lever, they hit really hard while providing a bit of range. Grab a smithing hammer (it'll look much more like Thor's stubby handle hammer). Same weight if not heavier, while under 1/3 the length.
Axes work the same way. 3lbs tops for one handed, and 7lbs tops for two handed... and I do mean tops. 5lbs is much more likely... but pick up an ax for chopping trees, and 6lbs is on the light side, with a shorter handle.
Which was why I initially treated it as the same stats as a normal battleaxe, but reasoned there would be disadvantage on the attack. Rolls.but that was too much of a penalty to that character. Switched it from disadvantage to improvised and therefore not proficient the we started seeing a more believable series of results.
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Not a criticism. What do you see a Light Hammer from the Simple Weapon list as? I see it as a Cross-peen hammer as often used by smiths and carpenters. Maybe you don't and can open my eyes. Otherwise, I don't see why we need to make a special case for one tool and not all of them.
I appreciate the efforts to differentiate tools and real weapons; but I'm still going with the idea that this is the "woodman's ax" from something like Red Riding Hood. So yeah, it's a tool of a trade but in the Grimm Lore, so to speak, it's sort of cross functional as a both a wood chopper and a wolf smiter. Tools are often exaggerated in capability in myths and heroic and even gritty fantasy. Heck, firearms don't really work the way they do in most movies. Let the woodman slayeth as they choppeth.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
While realistically there's a difference between a woodman's axe and a combat axe, this is D&D. Most 'woodsmen' I would create are going to be a class with martial weapons proficiency anyway, making it moot, and if for some reason I want a woodsman who isn't a martial class, I'm fine with him not being proficient at killing people with his axe.
No, and honestly they're way too much realism in my fantasy game here. When I answered, I answered from a mechanic standard because I don't want to have a 30 post theoretical discussion with my player on the merits of heft, swing, skill, combat orientation, etc. It's a game. It's a fantasy game. Adjudicate quickly and move on, is my motto.
I do like Saga's answer, its quick, clean and makes sense.
They were probably as throwable as any other fishing spear, the problem is the 'weapon' part. The point of a trident is to increase your chance of hitting small animals at a cost of reduced power per hit. This is useful when attacking unarmored Tiny creatures, mostly irrelevant against unarmored larger creatures, and actively detrimental against armored creatures.
But... again, this is D&D, not reality.
Yeah, outside of Aquaman and other Atlantean type fiction and Neptune myth, only place I've seen a trident deployed was a gladiator movie. Someone had a thread a while back about a trident and net fighting style. Did anyone actually fight that way either in war or bloodsport? I dunno, but it's a trope that works in both aquatic and sand and sandals modes. Kinda like a woodsman's ax....
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The way I read it, the retiarii - the net and trident guys - were kind of a novelty act for I suppose the Roman equivalent of boy band types. They'd be pursued in a speed vs. strength match by one of the guys with the rectangle tube shields and a gladius. Since the net guys didn't have helmets, they (whoever put the fight card together) cast the prettiest faces they could. I'm not sure about this, but I think what happened next was that so many of the guys without armor got killed by the guys with armor that the entire retiarii act - the character - was rewritten into a kind of rodeo clown.
It was a standard sort of Roman gladiator (called a retiarius), but yes, that was bloodsport, not war, it was meant to be showy rather than effective.
Not sure if it's been suggested, but I would, personally, consider a woodsman's axe used as a combat weapon to be akin to an improvised weapon. While it can be used as a weapon that isn't it's main purpose nor is it designed with that in mind.
A woodsman's axe is much heavier than an axe designed for combat due to the increased material - meant to aid in downward chopping - and its wedge shape - meant to aid in splitting the wood being cut. Compare that to a combat axe which is lighter - meant to make it more maneuverable and so as not to tire the wielder as quickly - and also more curved - meant to aid in slicing through fabric armour and flesh - and you'll see why I'd consider the woodsman's axe to be an improvised weapon.
This is where you have a decision to make: use the stats for a 2-handed axe or stat it as what it is: a tool used as an improvised weapon.
Personally, I would strongly lean toward improvised and stat it as [1d4 slashing + str] with no proficiency bonus because it's improvised but depending on why the player wants to use it as such - if they can give me a compelling reason such as backstory - I would consider going with the stats for the axe. This both makes it so that it can be used in combat and puts the onus on the player to be creative and earn the right to use it as a weapon with a weapon's stats. As for weapon type (martial vs simple) if statting it as a weapon I'd stick with the weapon type of the weapon stats being used.
Strictly in the realm of "my own opinion", of course.
I would say that being hit by a woodaxe and being hit by a battleaxe would probably deal similar damage. I would also say that you're more likely to hit with the battleaxe!
So for me it's an improvised 2-handed weapon with D10 slashing damage. No proficiency bonus (less likely to hit), but same damage if you do.
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See, that's a compromise between the two sides of the coin I suggested that I can get behind. It makes sense in my brain therefore I like. :D
Since we are discussing weapons, how many of you have a copy of Stone’s Glossary of Arms and armor? It is a good book about armour and weapons but lots of his research is outdated. I think it was originally published in the 1920s. And there is always Edwart Oakeshott books.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
I'm waiting on my copy of Oakeshott to arrive today!
I love how on Amazon, there was a $15 version (what I ordered), the "Mass Market Paperback" for like $50, and the original hard cover for over $800.
Which is what I said, only I went 1d8 (Versatile 1d10). I actually have used that in-game for a player who was specifically using a woodsman’s axe and it worked out very well indeed.
Other than “self defense weapons” (so Daggers, Quarterstaff and Shortswords) were not allowed to be carried within town limits and had to be checked (literally like a coat check), and were kept at the town hall. But tools were openly carried about and there was a logging comunity nearby so woodsmen were often seen in town. The PC felt uncomfortable unarmed and so he went and got himself a “tool” to carry, specifically a Woodcutter’s Axe.
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