Hey I'm currently building a genie warlock for a future campaign and i was curious on something, how would you work with the ruling on the Wish spell and the possibility of loosing it if you use it as anything other than a lower level spell slot that ignores components? one that I've heard so far is that they would treat it as you loosing the magic for a time as it caused issues with the patron or something along those lines but they wouldn't make it a permanent loss of the spell since its the ONLY 9th lvl spell you get. but id love to hear other rulings, and yes I know there are people that will just say your stuck with a useless feature but id love to try to expand beyond that since the casting is a bit different from other classes
Wish needs to be properly balanced, and anything less than permanent loss of access to Wish would create an opportunity for major exploitation.
One option would be to let the Warlock swap out the burnt Wish for a second Mystic Arcanum (8th level). They still get something powerful, but essentially lose access to 9th level spells, if they make a bad gamble. Maybe let them upgrade it to Mystic Arcanum (9th level) again once they hit level 20, (Excluding Wish).
The rules state that there is a chance that you will be unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress, and I'd be going by that as repeatedly wishing for anything is never going to end well for the game!
If you lost your wish, I might create a quest to regain it, which may restore it but would increase the likelihood to 80% chance of never casting it again if they get the stress - kind of a "last chance" sort of deal, with some associated costs. Perhaps I'd make it an artefact which requires an expensive component, making it less convenient.
The spell lists on the warlock just adds to potential spells known, after all. So it's not like you're losing a class feature or anything. You still just have the one level 9 spell, so just take a different spell.
Agreed. I would just let you swap out for a different 9th level spell the next time you level up. It’s fair and with Tasha’s it’s technically in the rules now.
The problem with "just swapping out", is that if the player wanted a different spell anyway, it rewards the player for picking and abusing Wish, before getting what they really wanted.
The problem is that it creates a new meta. The Genie patron is the only Warlock subclass that gets access to two 9th level spells. If we added Wish to all Warlocks, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
The Genie patron is the only Warlock subclass that gets access to two 9th level spells.
Can you elaborate because I don't see anything that grants Genlocks 2x 9th level spells. They get Wish added to their spell list to choose for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum if they want, but they still only get one spell for it.
It is the only subclass that can choose Wish for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum, but they still only get one 9th level spell, same as all other warlocks.
Am I missing something?
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The Genie patron is the only Warlock subclass that gets access to two 9th level spells.
Can you elaborate because I don't see anything that grants Genlocks 2x 9th level spells. They get Wish added to their spell list to choose for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum if they want, but they still only get one spell for it.
It is the only subclass that can choose Wish for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum, but they still only get one 9th level spell, same as all other warlocks.
Am I missing something?
The post is in the context of the previous conversation. If the Genlock is allowed to swap out the Wish spell for another spell *after* they burn through it to achieve Wish level effects, then they get the benefit of both Reality Breaking wishes as well as whatever they switch to.
It's an average of 3 free wishes for the Genlock that no other subclass would get. This is akin to giving them a free Legendary magic item.
The Genie patron is the only Warlock subclass that gets access to two 9th level spells.
Can you elaborate because I don't see anything that grants Genlocks 2x 9th level spells. They get Wish added to their spell list to choose for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum if they want, but they still only get one spell for it.
It is the only subclass that can choose Wish for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum, but they still only get one 9th level spell, same as all other warlocks.
Am I missing something?
The post is in the context of the previous conversation. If the Genlock is allowed to swap out the Wish spell for another spell *after* they burn through it to achieve Wish level effects, then they get the benefit of both Reality Breaking wishes as well as whatever they switch to.
It's an average of 3 free wishes for the Genlock that no other subclass would get. This is akin to giving them a free Legendary magic item.
Hence when you're playing adventurer's league they would highly unlikely to rule you get a free spell just because you burned through wish.
But if you're playing at home with friends, for fun and there arent anyone else in the table that feels this edges on their fun of the game, then the DM can INDIVIDUALLY chose to give another spell or allow them to regain the use of wish with some quest, artifact or great cost etc.
This isnt different from any other class or how DND generally plays. I would give the same options for the other caster classes with regards to wish as well. Just with this class it happens to fit the flavour of the text better given its a patron that gives the access to spell.
Maybe some people are saying the genie warlock is unique, but I think any caster with wish would be considered with the same thought process when faced with a loss of a 9th level spell. I dont think we are trying to make a unique ruling for genie warlocks, its just that happened to be what bought this particular potential issue to the forefront this time.
The Genie patron is the only Warlock subclass that gets access to two 9th level spells.
Can you elaborate because I don't see anything that grants Genlocks 2x 9th level spells. They get Wish added to their spell list to choose for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum if they want, but they still only get one spell for it.
It is the only subclass that can choose Wish for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum, but they still only get one 9th level spell, same as all other warlocks.
Am I missing something?
The post is in the context of the previous conversation. If the Genlock is allowed to swap out the Wish spell for another spell *after* they burn through it to achieve Wish level effects, then they get the benefit of both Reality Breaking wishes as well as whatever they switch to.
It's an average of 3 free wishes for the Genlock that no other subclass would get. This is akin to giving them a free Legendary magic item.
No other warlock subclass, perhaps, but every Wizard, Bard and Sorcerer do get it. Its something that's already in the game, and hardly game breaking. No more than everything else at that level, anyways. Hells, clerics get a weekly version of Wish that can't be burned out at level 20. They're basically can cast two level 9 spells in a single day.
Putting aside the fact that you actually have to hit level 17 at minimum, something that's absurdly rare in any game, even AL... putting aside the fact that pretty much everything at that level is crazy powerful and made so that you're strong enough to fight godly level beings ... putting aside the fact that you have to have someone who's actually reached this point who's interested in risking a Wish burnout and not playing it safe... you still have a DM who can adjust as needed.
Honestly, this seems to be borrowing trouble that's never really shown up in the game before, despite being around for years and years.
Sure, at an average home game, it's not going to break anything. I'm simply noting the significant consequence for consideration. I was the first person to suggest letting a Warlock swap out the spell for another.
It's obviously a fringe scenario and a DM has full control over game balance. It's simply helpful to start with an understanding of balance based on game design, and then making an informed decision from there.
That sounds more like you are worried about a problem player than the rules themselves.
If this really was a problem or have significant consequences, we'd have seen them with the Wizard. By default, it's trivial for them to have two 9th level spells known, even if they can only cast one a day. But we haven't, and there's really nothing about the warlock to make this an issue over the wizard.
In the same vein of letting a Warlock have two spells known, they could have 4, 5, 8, or all of the 9th level spells. Where the line is drawn is arbitrary.
At 1, we remain consistant with the Warlock class.
At "all", we have overtly crossed into Wizard territory. (No one gets more than one 9th level spellslot per day.)
Two 9th level spells known is doubling the Warlock's capabilities at that level, which is a massive improvement, even if it's a relatively minor change compared to other classes. Giving a 20th level Barbarian the ability to cast Fireball pales in comparison to any other spellcaster at the same level, but it is still a significant change to what it means to be a Barbarian.
The problem isn't with the magic, it's with game integrity. It's common for DMs to give their players "perks", so there is no issue with this being one of those perks, but it should be understood as such, and not simply handwaved as "trivial".
Wish is inherently broken without an assumed level of DM intervention. That's just the nature of the spell. Is it annoying that it leans so hard on DM arbitration? Yes. To the point that it undermines the integrity of the whole game? Maybe, yeah. But that's a choice the devs intentionally made and it's what we're stuck with so might as well make the best of it.
If I had a genie warlock that was Wishing with abandon because they thought the only negative consequence would be that they'd have to pick another spell, then I'd grant their Wishes with extreme prejudice. The spell text itself encourages punishment for those abusing it, so punish.
Hey I'm currently building a genie warlock for a future campaign and i was curious on something, how would you work with the ruling on the Wish spell and the possibility of loosing it if you use it as anything other than a lower level spell slot that ignores components? one that I've heard so far is that they would treat it as you loosing the magic for a time as it caused issues with the patron or something along those lines but they wouldn't make it a permanent loss of the spell since its the ONLY 9th lvl spell you get. but id love to hear other rulings, and yes I know there are people that will just say your stuck with a useless feature but id love to try to expand beyond that since the casting is a bit different from other classes
Wish needs to be properly balanced, and anything less than permanent loss of access to Wish would create an opportunity for major exploitation.
One option would be to let the Warlock swap out the burnt Wish for a second Mystic Arcanum (8th level). They still get something powerful, but essentially lose access to 9th level spells, if they make a bad gamble. Maybe let them upgrade it to Mystic Arcanum (9th level) again once they hit level 20, (Excluding Wish).
This is going to be up to your DM. There’s really nothing in RAW that covers it; it’s going to be what your DM allows.
as stated i alredy have their ruling, which i am not contesting at all, but id like to hear how other people would treat it
The rules state that there is a chance that you will be unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress, and I'd be going by that as repeatedly wishing for anything is never going to end well for the game!
If you lost your wish, I might create a quest to regain it, which may restore it but would increase the likelihood to 80% chance of never casting it again if they get the stress - kind of a "last chance" sort of deal, with some associated costs. Perhaps I'd make it an artefact which requires an expensive component, making it less convenient.
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Swap out for a different mystic arcanum.
The spell lists on the warlock just adds to potential spells known, after all. So it's not like you're losing a class feature or anything. You still just have the one level 9 spell, so just take a different spell.
Agreed. I would just let you swap out for a different 9th level spell the next time you level up. It’s fair and with Tasha’s it’s technically in the rules now.
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The problem with "just swapping out", is that if the player wanted a different spell anyway, it rewards the player for picking and abusing Wish, before getting what they really wanted.
And? That's literally how Wish works for everyone who has access. Wizards, Sorcerer's, Bards... Warlocks are just the newest.
The problem is that it creates a new meta. The Genie patron is the only Warlock subclass that gets access to two 9th level spells. If we added Wish to all Warlocks, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Can you elaborate because I don't see anything that grants Genlocks 2x 9th level spells. They get Wish added to their spell list to choose for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum if they want, but they still only get one spell for it.
It is the only subclass that can choose Wish for their 9th Level Mystic Arcanum, but they still only get one 9th level spell, same as all other warlocks.
Am I missing something?
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The post is in the context of the previous conversation. If the Genlock is allowed to swap out the Wish spell for another spell *after* they burn through it to achieve Wish level effects, then they get the benefit of both Reality Breaking wishes as well as whatever they switch to.
It's an average of 3 free wishes for the Genlock that no other subclass would get. This is akin to giving them a free Legendary magic item.
Hence when you're playing adventurer's league they would highly unlikely to rule you get a free spell just because you burned through wish.
But if you're playing at home with friends, for fun and there arent anyone else in the table that feels this edges on their fun of the game, then the DM can INDIVIDUALLY chose to give another spell or allow them to regain the use of wish with some quest, artifact or great cost etc.
This isnt different from any other class or how DND generally plays. I would give the same options for the other caster classes with regards to wish as well. Just with this class it happens to fit the flavour of the text better given its a patron that gives the access to spell.
Maybe some people are saying the genie warlock is unique, but I think any caster with wish would be considered with the same thought process when faced with a loss of a 9th level spell. I dont think we are trying to make a unique ruling for genie warlocks, its just that happened to be what bought this particular potential issue to the forefront this time.
No other warlock subclass, perhaps, but every Wizard, Bard and Sorcerer do get it. Its something that's already in the game, and hardly game breaking. No more than everything else at that level, anyways. Hells, clerics get a weekly version of Wish that can't be burned out at level 20. They're basically can cast two level 9 spells in a single day.
Putting aside the fact that you actually have to hit level 17 at minimum, something that's absurdly rare in any game, even AL... putting aside the fact that pretty much everything at that level is crazy powerful and made so that you're strong enough to fight godly level beings ... putting aside the fact that you have to have someone who's actually reached this point who's interested in risking a Wish burnout and not playing it safe... you still have a DM who can adjust as needed.
Honestly, this seems to be borrowing trouble that's never really shown up in the game before, despite being around for years and years.
Sure, at an average home game, it's not going to break anything. I'm simply noting the significant consequence for consideration. I was the first person to suggest letting a Warlock swap out the spell for another.
It's obviously a fringe scenario and a DM has full control over game balance. It's simply helpful to start with an understanding of balance based on game design, and then making an informed decision from there.
That sounds more like you are worried about a problem player than the rules themselves.
If this really was a problem or have significant consequences, we'd have seen them with the Wizard. By default, it's trivial for them to have two 9th level spells known, even if they can only cast one a day. But we haven't, and there's really nothing about the warlock to make this an issue over the wizard.
My only issue is with internal consistency.
In the same vein of letting a Warlock have two spells known, they could have 4, 5, 8, or all of the 9th level spells. Where the line is drawn is arbitrary.
At 1, we remain consistant with the Warlock class.
At "all", we have overtly crossed into Wizard territory. (No one gets more than one 9th level spellslot per day.)
Two 9th level spells known is doubling the Warlock's capabilities at that level, which is a massive improvement, even if it's a relatively minor change compared to other classes. Giving a 20th level Barbarian the ability to cast Fireball pales in comparison to any other spellcaster at the same level, but it is still a significant change to what it means to be a Barbarian.
The problem isn't with the magic, it's with game integrity. It's common for DMs to give their players "perks", so there is no issue with this being one of those perks, but it should be understood as such, and not simply handwaved as "trivial".
Wish is inherently broken without an assumed level of DM intervention. That's just the nature of the spell. Is it annoying that it leans so hard on DM arbitration? Yes. To the point that it undermines the integrity of the whole game? Maybe, yeah. But that's a choice the devs intentionally made and it's what we're stuck with so might as well make the best of it.
If I had a genie warlock that was Wishing with abandon because they thought the only negative consequence would be that they'd have to pick another spell, then I'd grant their Wishes with extreme prejudice. The spell text itself encourages punishment for those abusing it, so punish.
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Thematically, them getting 3 wishes fits with the Genie theme of the subclass as a whole.
Sure, and...?