For any who haven't tried out the Baldur's Gate 3 early access, there were a number of quality of life/preferential changes made to various class abilities. One of the most notable being the thief rogue archetype's level 3 ability. Rather than getting Fast Hands and Second-Story Work, you simply get a second bonus action. A very interesting concept for an ability, but I can't shake the feeling that in the real game this might be too powerful. So, do you believe having a second bonus action would be OP for only a 3 level rouge dip? If so, please give an example or two of how you could abuse it. (Please no magic items in the examples to keep it simpler)
First gut reaction thought would be monk dipping 3 rogue and getting 4 flury of blows attacks. It seems pretty powerful, but idk how terrible it would be. lots of stunning blow chances , but its all still restricted by ki points.
Edit: a 5 monk, 3 rogue, 2 fighter could get 8 attacks by level 10 by spending 2 ki points and action surge ONCE in a fight They'd get 6 attacks normally by using both bonus actions as flurry (2 ki). I can see it getting annoying for other players dealing with this players turns in combat lol
With two bonus actions, a rogue could attack, disengage, and then either dash for extra distance or hide all in one turn. That could be a bit much if you want things to ever be able to hit the rogue in melee. Rogues should be slippery but that may be a little TOO slippery.
It'd also potentially allow three attacks, one main attack and two offhand attacks.
Without getting into multiclassing or magic items that's all that comes to mind for me.
Maybe just give a second Cunning Action that can be used to do any Rogue abilities.
Even this would be annoying though. A Rogue using their bonus actions to Dash AND Disengage in one turn. Basically the Mobile feat for free.
Yeah. I mean they can do that as is but requires sacrificing their main action.
And rogues don't really get all that much else to do WITH their bonus actions outside of cunning actions anyway.
This might be okay IF it's limited. Like 'you can do this once per short rest' or 'twice per long rest' or something, but I'd be wary of giving it out for free. And IMO it's not even as fun flavor wise as what rogue subclasses get at 3 in 5E anyway.
Rogues are already pretty mobile and slippery as is being able to bonus action disengage or dash or hide, allowing two per turn feels like overkill. If someone wants to homebrew a new subclass or replacement for a subclass' level 3 ablities I wouldn't go this angle.
Allowing a character to do more things in one turn is always going to court 'broken'. Action economy is the absolute undisputed king of D&D 5e. There's a reason that characters/classes/builds which have a solid, consistent, and reliable use for their bonus action are generally considered much stronger than characters which do not. Characters that can reliably use their reaction as well, such as Sentinels or Polearm Masters, are usually considered among the very best, strongest, most excellent builds in the game.
Consider: -A second bonus action allows a bard to grant Inspiration and use Healing World within the same turn, consistently. Alongside whatever they do with their main action. -A second bonus action allows a Crossbow Expert to fire their primary weapon three times per turn (rogues, single-attack classes), four times per turn (two-attack classes), or up to five or six times per turn (fighters). This compounds with the already-powerful single-level dip for Hex and warlock abilities. -A second bonus action allows a cleric and certain paladins to command a Spiritual Weapon in addition to using bonus-action spells or two-weapon fighting. A paladin delivering three Smite-capable attacks a turn and a fourth attack from a Spiritual Weapon for the cost of some rogue levels is considerable, especially since the paladin also gets a 2d6 sneak attack.
And that's just off the top of my head. A second, general-use bonus action is the sort of thing almost guaranteed to have Unintended Consequences down the line. I would be very cautious before allowing it in my games.
I'm playtesting a houserule right now that you can use Inspiration on your turn to gain a second bonus action that turn, but it must be a different action than the first one. So far I feel that it's been a good addition.
Granting more than one bonus action or reaction is one of three things the opening section of Chapter 9 of the DMG explicitly tells DMs not to do for fear of breaking the game. I wouldn’t tinker with it.
The first problem is that the game's designers assume that when they make something a bonus action it won't be used more than once per round. You really risk introducing a game-breaking loophole that you can't predict.
The other one is that this allows 3 attacks per turn with two-weapon fighting or Crossbow Expert, which is problematic because it really steps on the Fighter and Monk's toes and makes it borderline impossible to not get your Sneak Attack. In fact if you have advantage and Elven Accuracy you can actually fish for crits by foregoing Sneak Attacks on your first and second hits if they don't crit.
Then there's the flavor problem. "You get two bonus actions" is a lot more generic than the 3rd level Thief features so it's also less interesting and doesn't really drive you to play more like a thief. So even though it's arguably better mechanically, it's also worse narratively. The narrower scope of Fast Hands gives the subclass a much stronger theme.
If you really want to go this route at the very least you should add a rule that you can't use the same bonus action twice.
You give two bonus actions to a char, and it is lights out for many a monster. I can imagine a ton of chars will thrive on that, but one for certain is a Hexblade.
Hex and Hexblade's Curse are both Bonus Actions,. To have those both fire on the first turn of combat, and THEN the Hexblade attacks....no, just no.
Or a Sorcerer who can now Quicken a spell, maybe twice?
I have thought of giving a fighter that has taken two-weapon fighting the off hand attack as a free action if both weapons are held in hand at the beginning of the round i.e. no drawing the 2nd weapon and getting the free attack that round. I have been thinking of doing something along those lines for awhile as so many think of two weapon fighting as a trap. Might even go with anyone that is two weapon fighting that free offhand attack even without them getting attribute mods, what do you guys think as this would leave the bonus action open for other things?
Dual wielding. I already don’t like it (it’s not historically accurate or actually viable and is more of a movie thing), and this just generally makes it OP, strictly better than a rapier and heck, probably better than a Fighter in terms of consistent damage, which is the Fighter’s thing.
Rather than granting a second bonus action, the reverse Cunning would be powerful without being overpowered, I think. Let the character who has it perform any bonus action as an action instead (i.e. you have to choose every round which kind it is), so if their bonus action is overloaded, they can move things to be an action. Still powerful and exploitable, due to Action Surge, but significantly less broken than the original suggestion, and certainly less powerful than a capstone should be, so it should be fittable in the game somewhere, even if it's at the top of a subclass.
Rather than granting a second bonus action, the reverse Cunning would be powerful without being overpowered, I think. Let the character who has it perform any bonus action as an action instead (i.e. you have to choose every round which kind it is), so if their bonus action is overloaded, they can move things to be an action. Still powerful and exploitable, due to Action Surge, but significantly less broken than the original suggestion, and certainly less powerful than a capstone should be, so it should be fittable in the game somewhere, even if it's at the top of a subclass.
Would this really be useful though? Cunning action can hide, dash and disengage, all things you can already do as a regular action anyway. And unless they get a magic item that has a bonus action use or they multiclass into something with more bonus action uses, I don't know how much use you'd get out of being able to use a bonus action as an action for a rogue.
I have thought of giving a fighter that has taken two-weapon fighting the off hand attack as a free action if both weapons are held in hand at the beginning of the round i.e. no drawing the 2nd weapon and getting the free attack that round. I have been thinking of doing something along those lines for awhile as so many think of two weapon fighting as a trap. Might even go with anyone that is two weapon fighting that free offhand attack even without them getting attribute mods, what do you guys think as this would leave the bonus action open for other things?
There's been some discussion about this elsewhere and it's a solid idea. People have done the math and it's still no better than any other damage-focused build (PAM/Sharpshooter/GWM) and it manages to make builds like DW Rangers actually viable. If anyone thinks it would be broken, I'd love to see a build that illustrates how.
It does create a problem with Martial Arts though. With this change monk should be able to do their BA attack as a part of the Attack action as well, and then players will invariably want to do Flurry of Blows right after. So you'd need to do some adjustment there as well - you could make it one attack, but there are features that can activate on FoB that would be diminished if you only got one attack with it.
I have thought of giving a fighter that has taken two-weapon fighting the off hand attack as a free action if both weapons are held in hand at the beginning of the round i.e. no drawing the 2nd weapon and getting the free attack that round. I have been thinking of doing something along those lines for awhile as so many think of two weapon fighting as a trap. Might even go with anyone that is two weapon fighting that free offhand attack even without them getting attribute mods, what do you guys think as this would leave the bonus action open for other things?
There's been some discussion about this elsewhere and it's a solid idea. People have done the math and it's still no better than any other damage-focused build (PAM/Sharpshooter/GWM) and it manages to make builds like DW Rangers actually viable. If anyone thinks it would be broken, I'd love to see a build that illustrates how.
It does create a problem with Martial Arts though. With this change monk should be able to do their BA attack as a part of the Attack action as well, and then players will invariably want to do Flurry of Blows right after. So you'd need to do some adjustment there as well.
The biggest diff would be at low lvls where a -5 to hit is pretty big when you only get 1 attack, meanwhile a TWF could make 3 attacks instead of just 1. For instance 2d6+14 if we started with an 18 str vs d8+4+d8+d8 (if we're taking GWM than factor in the two weapon feat.
I think the bigger issue would be comboing something like PAM/GWM with this and getting even more bonus attacks
No, the number of attacks would stay the same. At level 1, you get one regular attack and one TWF attack. The difference in the houserule is that the TWF attack happens for free as part of the Attack action instead of requiring a bonus action. This does away with the TWF bonus action entirely to free up your bonus for something else like Hex or Misty Step or Rage or Planar Warrior or whatever.
Bonus attacks from PAM/GWM would not be affected and could not stack with a TWF build because their requirements are mutually exclusive. But you could do stuff like Spiritual Weapon or Flaming Sphere.
For any who haven't tried out the Baldur's Gate 3 early access, there were a number of quality of life/preferential changes made to various class abilities. One of the most notable being the thief rogue archetype's level 3 ability. Rather than getting Fast Hands and Second-Story Work, you simply get a second bonus action. A very interesting concept for an ability, but I can't shake the feeling that in the real game this might be too powerful. So, do you believe having a second bonus action would be OP for only a 3 level rouge dip? If so, please give an example or two of how you could abuse it. (Please no magic items in the examples to keep it simpler)
First gut reaction thought would be monk dipping 3 rogue and getting 4 flury of blows attacks. It seems pretty powerful, but idk how terrible it would be. lots of stunning blow chances , but its all still restricted by ki points.
Edit: a 5 monk, 3 rogue, 2 fighter could get 8 attacks by level 10 by spending 2 ki points and action surge ONCE in a fight
They'd get 6 attacks normally by using both bonus actions as flurry (2 ki). I can see it getting annoying for other players dealing with this players turns in combat lol
The only issue I'm immediately faced with is a Level 3 character dual wielding getting 2 off-hand attacks in addition to their main attack?
Maybe just give a second Cunning Action that can be used to do any Rogue abilities.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXIV?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
With two bonus actions, a rogue could attack, disengage, and then either dash for extra distance or hide all in one turn. That could be a bit much if you want things to ever be able to hit the rogue in melee. Rogues should be slippery but that may be a little TOO slippery.
It'd also potentially allow three attacks, one main attack and two offhand attacks.
Without getting into multiclassing or magic items that's all that comes to mind for me.
Even this would be annoying though. A Rogue using their bonus actions to Dash AND Disengage in one turn. Basically the Mobile feat for free.
Yeah. I mean they can do that as is but requires sacrificing their main action.
And rogues don't really get all that much else to do WITH their bonus actions outside of cunning actions anyway.
This might be okay IF it's limited. Like 'you can do this once per short rest' or 'twice per long rest' or something, but I'd be wary of giving it out for free. And IMO it's not even as fun flavor wise as what rogue subclasses get at 3 in 5E anyway.
Rogues are already pretty mobile and slippery as is being able to bonus action disengage or dash or hide, allowing two per turn feels like overkill. If someone wants to homebrew a new subclass or replacement for a subclass' level 3 ablities I wouldn't go this angle.
Allowing a character to do more things in one turn is always going to court 'broken'. Action economy is the absolute undisputed king of D&D 5e. There's a reason that characters/classes/builds which have a solid, consistent, and reliable use for their bonus action are generally considered much stronger than characters which do not. Characters that can reliably use their reaction as well, such as Sentinels or Polearm Masters, are usually considered among the very best, strongest, most excellent builds in the game.
Consider:
-A second bonus action allows a bard to grant Inspiration and use Healing World within the same turn, consistently. Alongside whatever they do with their main action.
-A second bonus action allows a Crossbow Expert to fire their primary weapon three times per turn (rogues, single-attack classes), four times per turn (two-attack classes), or up to five or six times per turn (fighters). This compounds with the already-powerful single-level dip for Hex and warlock abilities.
-A second bonus action allows a cleric and certain paladins to command a Spiritual Weapon in addition to using bonus-action spells or two-weapon fighting. A paladin delivering three Smite-capable attacks a turn and a fourth attack from a Spiritual Weapon for the cost of some rogue levels is considerable, especially since the paladin also gets a 2d6 sneak attack.
And that's just off the top of my head. A second, general-use bonus action is the sort of thing almost guaranteed to have Unintended Consequences down the line. I would be very cautious before allowing it in my games.
Please do not contact or message me.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Granting more than one bonus action or reaction is one of three things the opening section of Chapter 9 of the DMG explicitly tells DMs not to do for fear of breaking the game. I wouldn’t tinker with it.
The first problem is that the game's designers assume that when they make something a bonus action it won't be used more than once per round. You really risk introducing a game-breaking loophole that you can't predict.
The other one is that this allows 3 attacks per turn with two-weapon fighting or Crossbow Expert, which is problematic because it really steps on the Fighter and Monk's toes and makes it borderline impossible to not get your Sneak Attack. In fact if you have advantage and Elven Accuracy you can actually fish for crits by foregoing Sneak Attacks on your first and second hits if they don't crit.
Then there's the flavor problem. "You get two bonus actions" is a lot more generic than the 3rd level Thief features so it's also less interesting and doesn't really drive you to play more like a thief. So even though it's arguably better mechanically, it's also worse narratively. The narrower scope of Fast Hands gives the subclass a much stronger theme.
If you really want to go this route at the very least you should add a rule that you can't use the same bonus action twice.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
You give two bonus actions to a char, and it is lights out for many a monster. I can imagine a ton of chars will thrive on that, but one for certain is a Hexblade.
Hex and Hexblade's Curse are both Bonus Actions,. To have those both fire on the first turn of combat, and THEN the Hexblade attacks....no, just no.
Or a Sorcerer who can now Quicken a spell, maybe twice?
This is an absolutely terrible idea.
I have thought of giving a fighter that has taken two-weapon fighting the off hand attack as a free action if both weapons are held in hand at the beginning of the round i.e. no drawing the 2nd weapon and getting the free attack that round. I have been thinking of doing something along those lines for awhile as so many think of two weapon fighting as a trap. Might even go with anyone that is two weapon fighting that free offhand attack even without them getting attribute mods, what do you guys think as this would leave the bonus action open for other things?
Dual wielding. I already don’t like it (it’s not historically accurate or actually viable and is more of a movie thing), and this just generally makes it OP, strictly better than a rapier and heck, probably better than a Fighter in terms of consistent damage, which is the Fighter’s thing.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
You're all forgetting that binding the extra bonus action to a Cunning action would probaby fix much of those problems.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXIV?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
Rather than granting a second bonus action, the reverse Cunning would be powerful without being overpowered, I think. Let the character who has it perform any bonus action as an action instead (i.e. you have to choose every round which kind it is), so if their bonus action is overloaded, they can move things to be an action. Still powerful and exploitable, due to Action Surge, but significantly less broken than the original suggestion, and certainly less powerful than a capstone should be, so it should be fittable in the game somewhere, even if it's at the top of a subclass.
Would this really be useful though? Cunning action can hide, dash and disengage, all things you can already do as a regular action anyway. And unless they get a magic item that has a bonus action use or they multiclass into something with more bonus action uses, I don't know how much use you'd get out of being able to use a bonus action as an action for a rogue.
There's been some discussion about this elsewhere and it's a solid idea. People have done the math and it's still no better than any other damage-focused build (PAM/Sharpshooter/GWM) and it manages to make builds like DW Rangers actually viable. If anyone thinks it would be broken, I'd love to see a build that illustrates how.
It does create a problem with Martial Arts though. With this change monk should be able to do their BA attack as a part of the Attack action as well, and then players will invariably want to do Flurry of Blows right after. So you'd need to do some adjustment there as well - you could make it one attack, but there are features that can activate on FoB that would be diminished if you only got one attack with it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The biggest diff would be at low lvls where a -5 to hit is pretty big when you only get 1 attack, meanwhile a TWF could make 3 attacks instead of just 1. For instance 2d6+14 if we started with an 18 str vs d8+4+d8+d8 (if we're taking GWM than factor in the two weapon feat.
I think the bigger issue would be comboing something like PAM/GWM with this and getting even more bonus attacks
No, the number of attacks would stay the same. At level 1, you get one regular attack and one TWF attack. The difference in the houserule is that the TWF attack happens for free as part of the Attack action instead of requiring a bonus action. This does away with the TWF bonus action entirely to free up your bonus for something else like Hex or Misty Step or Rage or Planar Warrior or whatever.
Bonus attacks from PAM/GWM would not be affected and could not stack with a TWF build because their requirements are mutually exclusive. But you could do stuff like Spiritual Weapon or Flaming Sphere.
But this is a bit off topic. Apologies.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm