So, my (level 4, soon to be level 5) players are currently venturing into a dungeon vault built by the evil governor-king of the city the campaign takes place in. He built it to contain all of the relics and refuse of all the things he doesn’t want anyone else to have or see, like revenants, the remains of crushed rebellions — or relics. There are a few objects in the vault I don’t want falling into player hands, such as the Diamond Bo or the Wand of Vel Doran. Does anyone have advice as to how to keep the party from actually using these?
It depends on your world, and what this governor-king would have access to. But here's an idea: A spell is put on this relics so that when they are touched by anyone other than the governor-king, they teleport somewhere else.
But whatever you do, the PCs very well may feel slighted at this. So my best advise would be to not dangle the op magic items in front of the low level characters just yet. Or if you do, maybe hint beforehand that it would happen, or come up with some way for them to get it. So with the spell example above, you could, after the relics teleport, have it hint at the new location. (make sure the location is dangerous, so they only go when they are higher level)
This is one of those things where the DM has to realize they're not just building a world, where sure it may make sense to have the Governor King to have such a vault nearby at hand to the game's origin, but they're building a game that's based on leveled progressions. The easiest fix is if you're designing a dungeon for 4th or 5th level players, don't stock it with items you feel are overpowered at this point in game. I mean, if the Governor King had the resources to acquire these artifacts, why would they dump them in a place presumably surmountable by a 4th-5th level party. It's the pragmatics of world building. If you want them to enter the Vault and give them a sense that "they aren't ready", "red wall" that section of the vault, have it clear that if the players went into certain areas they're not ready or your game is not ready for, it's suicide. The players may feel railroaded, which again is why I'd say don't design the facility to have these contents, or make it inaccessible to the players period.
Other possibility, just thinking out loud, make it a sort of Sword and the Stone fail. Houserule it that these items will not deem anyone below level X "worthy" and so can't be used by the PCs, so subsequent adventures would be finding safe custodians of these relics. Sorta like the couriers driving nuclear weapons grade material across country don't usually know how to make a bomb out of the stuff, but they're still transporting it and it's an important mission sort of thing.
Basically, you can't just put Pandora's box in front of a PCs in a display room. They're gonna try to open it. If the stuff needs to be there yet you're not going to allow the players to "really have it", it's best to give them the opportunity to get the items into the right hands, or be responsible for the items falling into the wrong hands and then working to recover them.
Simple answer would just be that if you think these items would break your game, don't include them.
If they're vital to the story but would break your game, I like the sword in the stone idea introduced above. Going further, you could say that if a character does get their hands on it, instead of being completely inert, maybe the player only gets access to a limited version of its powers, and unlocks more of the artifact's power as they prove themselves worthy over time, kind of like an item-specific level progression. I think Matt Coville did this kind of thing in his game with the Shield of Andrum, with the player unlocking more of its powers as the game went on. I forget what video he talks about it in...
the player only gets access to a limited version of its powers, and unlocks more of the artifact's power as they prove themselves worthy over time, kind of like an item-specific level progression. I think Matt Coville did this kind of thing in his game with the Shield of Andrum, with the player unlocking more of its powers as the game went on. I forget what video he talks about it in...
Not sure on Colville, but Mercer certainly did with some weapons described in EGtW and statted here on DDB if the books unlocked (I forget what the "good guy" weapons were called but the "bad guy" weapon were the Arms of the Betrayer, I've basically stolen the blade of broken mirrors for my game where it's a sort of shard of Fraz-Urb'luu), but yeah each weapon went through I think 3-4 {phases that would unlock as characters reached milestones (conveniently mapped to tiers of play). Turns out neither Matt were innovative in this. There were apparently "weapons of legacy" or some such in prior editions. I'd say with the weapons there, 5 is probably the earliest you'd want someone with their hands on them.
By Sword and the Stone I meant you could have the "only the worthy can actually move this" test, or it could simply be inert but transportable until a worth hand attunes to it.
Good vid on magic weapons "growing" along with a PC, I think it even names some books with reprints available in DM's Guild:
I mean, if the Governor King had the resources to acquire these artifacts, why would they dump them in a place presumably surmountable by a 4th-5th level party.
This is what it boils down to for me. Eventually the party will be fighting things much stronger than the party is now. Why didn't those bad guys ever plunder these amazing relics that are so accessible? It seems metagamey, but it actually makes sense that 5th level adventures are stocked with 5th level treasure. The higher level stuff would have already been taken by higher level guys, and the party-level stuff was left behind or not bothered with since they already had better stuff.
Campaigns operate on a scale, and jumping ahead too far on the scale too early paints you into a corner later because you have nowhere left to go. To the governeror of a city, a rare magic item is basically a priceless relic. You don't find legendaries until you're dealing with ancient dragons or rulers of vast empires. Just throw in level-appropriate stuff and describe it as exquisite - it is, after all, much more valuable than anything else the party has seen up to that point.
Along the lines of what others said, there’s the vestiges of divergence in the wildemount book. They’re designed to level up with the character.
They don’t automatically get power boosts, the character wielding them needs to accomplish something (DM’s discretion) before the reach the next tier of power. And for why no one else got them first, either it’s not commonly known they can increase in power, or they can only be attuned to certain types of characters, like how a holy avenger needs a paladin.
And for why no one else got them first, either it’s not commonly known they can increase in power, or they can only be attuned to certain types of characters, like how a holy avenger needs a paladin.
They don't stay at their peak. Dormant means asleep. Awakened is the next stage, followed by exalted. When it loses its champion, it more often than not goes dormant. These are well known tropes being used here in the mechanic.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
And for why no one else got them first, either it’s not commonly known they can increase in power, or they can only be attuned to certain types of characters, like how a holy avenger needs a paladin.
They don't stay at their peak. Dormant means asleep. Awakened is the next stage, followed by exalted. When it loses its champion, it more often than not goes dormant. These are well known tropes being used here in the mechanic.
It seems like you’re trying to correct what I posted, and I do try to be open to corrections, but I’m not sure how what you posted does that. But if I’m wrong about something, I want to know. Or is it just expanding on what I posted?
And for why no one else got them first, either it’s not commonly known they can increase in power, or they can only be attuned to certain types of characters, like how a holy avenger needs a paladin.
They don't stay at their peak. Dormant means asleep. Awakened is the next stage, followed by exalted. When it loses its champion, it more often than not goes dormant. These are well known tropes being used here in the mechanic.
It seems like you’re trying to correct what I posted, and I do try to be open to corrections, but I’m not sure how what you posted does that. But if I’m wrong about something, I want to know. Or is it just expanding on what I posted?
I think Midnight is just expanding on "as for why nobody else knows about them..."; because they're dormant and have passed out of memory. You don't necessarily need to contrive a reason for why they're not at full power because the mechanic addresses why.
And for why no one else got them first, either it’s not commonly known they can increase in power, or they can only be attuned to certain types of characters, like how a holy avenger needs a paladin.
They don't stay at their peak. Dormant means asleep. Awakened is the next stage, followed by exalted. When it loses its champion, it more often than not goes dormant. These are well known tropes being used here in the mechanic.
It seems like you’re trying to correct what I posted, and I do try to be open to corrections, but I’m not sure how what you posted does that. But if I’m wrong about something, I want to know. Or is it just expanding on what I posted?
I think Midnight is just expanding on "as for why nobody else knows about them..."; because they're dormant and have passed out of memory. You don't necessarily need to contrive a reason for why they're not at full power because the mechanic addresses why.
Basically, yeah. The way Zhule presented the Arms of the Betrayer and the other set was a little muddier than they're written, but within that mud, and germane to this discussion, there's actually a few different ways "scaling" magic items could work.
I. As written in the Wildmont, suggested by Colville, and existent in prior editions, the character's relationship to the weapon is one of a process of revelation to the wielder. The weapon/item always has the capacity, but the powers are revealed over time (usually in 3-4 "phases" like dormancy to exalted). These weapons have been used to their fullest capacity in the past, but have been lost and discovered by new users begins the cycle of revealing itself all over again. If the weapon is taken from its owner (hard because a lot of these things have various magical bonds where in some case they can just be called to hand as long as item and owner are in the same plane, and a few even the planar boundary doesn't matter), the current level of awakening could stay, but I'd say it's more likely back to dormancy (since a lot of these weapons are tied to a mortal owner and it's that life that brought more out of the weapon).
II. Weapon can be a sort of Sidekick or DMPC character who starts as simply +1 and then "levels" up growing in power over time on some sort of progression of the DM's determination (though dormant to exalted is a good frame work), if the player loses said weapon, it's next owner has it at whatever level it was at.*
III. A sort of "must be this tall to fully wield" sort of standard where you again have something like a dormant to exalted progression, but rather than wielder milestones "unlocking" the weapon, the weapon grants it's wielder the suite of capacities provided as long as they're at a certain level benchmark. So a 4th level character has a +2 dagger that can basically do disguise self, BBEG grabs it and suddenly the dagger's blasting Power Word: Kill left and right.
Another dimension to this with sentient weapons, where the DM has the option of weapons' abilities that are known and controlled by the PC and abilities that are not necessarily known by the PC but controlled by the item (Shield of the Hidden Lord gives you some sense as to how that works. I got three "strong personality" weapons (so far) in my game world Querilous Legat, often called Bickerblade, who needs to keep argumentatively stimulated to be fully invested in the fight, Absurdium, who will often pull stuff for the Lulz, and Caprice who will literally gamechange "upon further consideration." There's actually a whole "college" of these weapons somewhere, fortunately for my RP vocal chords, no party has opted to find it.
When this thread went active, my random playlist played me this again (TW, recounting some sexual harassment and mild profanity throughout):
And I can't contribute a conversation where I mention my steal of the Blade of Broken Mirrors without the X Files speech that is the basis for its personality in my game (tip: always use Professional Wrestlers as the basis for fiends):
Don't put anything in my game that my players can't have, take, steal, loot, ruin, kill, help, change, or modify.
If they can't interact with something there must be a catch. Perhaps it's destined for later or they're missing something but beyond that, if it's there, it's for them - at some point in the game.
Simple. Curse em’. The players can either use them for cool powers and gain drawbacks (should probably be opposite to the benefits, increased strength means decreased dexterity etc.), or not use them.
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This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco. No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
Don't put anything in my game that my players can't have, take, steal, loot, ruin, kill, help, change, or modify.
If they can't interact with something there must be a catch. Perhaps it's destined for later or they're missing something but beyond that, if it's there, it's for them - at some point in the game.
Well I imagine the OP is intending these items for later use, but I'd still frown on tantalization. Otherwise, yeah you're basically taking the Chekhov Law's rule of fiction/drama and applying it to TTRPGs. If the setting pays attention to a gun, it goes off. If the dungeon has a +5 Vorpal Blade laying around, the PCs get to play with it.
Simple. Curse em’. The players can either use them for cool powers and gain drawbacks (should probably be opposite to the benefits, increased strength means decreased dexterity etc.), or not use them.
The Bonesaw is an awesome example of a cursed weapon. Totally destroys any hope of stealth, cuz sneakin' around is not the Bonesaw's way.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
They are merely copies of high level magic items...the governor-king couldn't tell the difference. But careful inspection reveals a trademark. Asking around, the PCs find that the trademark belongs to an exiled former member of the court. Tracking the maker down might lead the players to the real thing. (Which could be currently wielded by a warlord that needs to be defeated, after which it can be claimed, etc.) If you don't want to completely deprive your players, have them be super high end/magical replicas. So not the powerful item they thought it was, but still a +1/+2/etc version.
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So, my (level 4, soon to be level 5) players are currently venturing into a dungeon vault built by the evil governor-king of the city the campaign takes place in. He built it to contain all of the relics and refuse of all the things he doesn’t want anyone else to have or see, like revenants, the remains of crushed rebellions — or relics. There are a few objects in the vault I don’t want falling into player hands, such as the Diamond Bo or the Wand of Vel Doran. Does anyone have advice as to how to keep the party from actually using these?
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It depends on your world, and what this governor-king would have access to. But here's an idea: A spell is put on this relics so that when they are touched by anyone other than the governor-king, they teleport somewhere else.
But whatever you do, the PCs very well may feel slighted at this. So my best advise would be to not dangle the op magic items in front of the low level characters just yet. Or if you do, maybe hint beforehand that it would happen, or come up with some way for them to get it. So with the spell example above, you could, after the relics teleport, have it hint at the new location. (make sure the location is dangerous, so they only go when they are higher level)
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>Extended Signature<
This is one of those things where the DM has to realize they're not just building a world, where sure it may make sense to have the Governor King to have such a vault nearby at hand to the game's origin, but they're building a game that's based on leveled progressions. The easiest fix is if you're designing a dungeon for 4th or 5th level players, don't stock it with items you feel are overpowered at this point in game. I mean, if the Governor King had the resources to acquire these artifacts, why would they dump them in a place presumably surmountable by a 4th-5th level party. It's the pragmatics of world building. If you want them to enter the Vault and give them a sense that "they aren't ready", "red wall" that section of the vault, have it clear that if the players went into certain areas they're not ready or your game is not ready for, it's suicide. The players may feel railroaded, which again is why I'd say don't design the facility to have these contents, or make it inaccessible to the players period.
Other possibility, just thinking out loud, make it a sort of Sword and the Stone fail. Houserule it that these items will not deem anyone below level X "worthy" and so can't be used by the PCs, so subsequent adventures would be finding safe custodians of these relics. Sorta like the couriers driving nuclear weapons grade material across country don't usually know how to make a bomb out of the stuff, but they're still transporting it and it's an important mission sort of thing.
Basically, you can't just put Pandora's box in front of a PCs in a display room. They're gonna try to open it. If the stuff needs to be there yet you're not going to allow the players to "really have it", it's best to give them the opportunity to get the items into the right hands, or be responsible for the items falling into the wrong hands and then working to recover them.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Simple answer would just be that if you think these items would break your game, don't include them.
If they're vital to the story but would break your game, I like the sword in the stone idea introduced above. Going further, you could say that if a character does get their hands on it, instead of being completely inert, maybe the player only gets access to a limited version of its powers, and unlocks more of the artifact's power as they prove themselves worthy over time, kind of like an item-specific level progression. I think Matt Coville did this kind of thing in his game with the Shield of Andrum, with the player unlocking more of its powers as the game went on. I forget what video he talks about it in...
Not sure on Colville, but Mercer certainly did with some weapons described in EGtW and statted here on DDB if the books unlocked (I forget what the "good guy" weapons were called but the "bad guy" weapon were the Arms of the Betrayer, I've basically stolen the blade of broken mirrors for my game where it's a sort of shard of Fraz-Urb'luu), but yeah each weapon went through I think 3-4 {phases that would unlock as characters reached milestones (conveniently mapped to tiers of play). Turns out neither Matt were innovative in this. There were apparently "weapons of legacy" or some such in prior editions. I'd say with the weapons there, 5 is probably the earliest you'd want someone with their hands on them.
By Sword and the Stone I meant you could have the "only the worthy can actually move this" test, or it could simply be inert but transportable until a worth hand attunes to it.
Good vid on magic weapons "growing" along with a PC, I think it even names some books with reprints available in DM's Guild:
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This is what it boils down to for me. Eventually the party will be fighting things much stronger than the party is now. Why didn't those bad guys ever plunder these amazing relics that are so accessible? It seems metagamey, but it actually makes sense that 5th level adventures are stocked with 5th level treasure. The higher level stuff would have already been taken by higher level guys, and the party-level stuff was left behind or not bothered with since they already had better stuff.
Campaigns operate on a scale, and jumping ahead too far on the scale too early paints you into a corner later because you have nowhere left to go. To the governeror of a city, a rare magic item is basically a priceless relic. You don't find legendaries until you're dealing with ancient dragons or rulers of vast empires. Just throw in level-appropriate stuff and describe it as exquisite - it is, after all, much more valuable than anything else the party has seen up to that point.
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
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(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Along the lines of what others said, there’s the vestiges of divergence in the wildemount book. They’re designed to level up with the character.
They don’t automatically get power boosts, the character wielding them needs to accomplish something (DM’s discretion) before the reach the next tier of power.
And for why no one else got them first, either it’s not commonly known they can increase in power, or they can only be attuned to certain types of characters, like how a holy avenger needs a paladin.
They don't stay at their peak. Dormant means asleep. Awakened is the next stage, followed by exalted. When it loses its champion, it more often than not goes dormant. These are well known tropes being used here in the mechanic.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It seems like you’re trying to correct what I posted, and I do try to be open to corrections, but I’m not sure how what you posted does that. But if I’m wrong about something, I want to know. Or is it just expanding on what I posted?
I think Midnight is just expanding on "as for why nobody else knows about them..."; because they're dormant and have passed out of memory. You don't necessarily need to contrive a reason for why they're not at full power because the mechanic addresses why.
Basically, yeah. The way Zhule presented the Arms of the Betrayer and the other set was a little muddier than they're written, but within that mud, and germane to this discussion, there's actually a few different ways "scaling" magic items could work.
I. As written in the Wildmont, suggested by Colville, and existent in prior editions, the character's relationship to the weapon is one of a process of revelation to the wielder. The weapon/item always has the capacity, but the powers are revealed over time (usually in 3-4 "phases" like dormancy to exalted). These weapons have been used to their fullest capacity in the past, but have been lost and discovered by new users begins the cycle of revealing itself all over again. If the weapon is taken from its owner (hard because a lot of these things have various magical bonds where in some case they can just be called to hand as long as item and owner are in the same plane, and a few even the planar boundary doesn't matter), the current level of awakening could stay, but I'd say it's more likely back to dormancy (since a lot of these weapons are tied to a mortal owner and it's that life that brought more out of the weapon).
II. Weapon can be a sort of Sidekick or DMPC character who starts as simply +1 and then "levels" up growing in power over time on some sort of progression of the DM's determination (though dormant to exalted is a good frame work), if the player loses said weapon, it's next owner has it at whatever level it was at.*
III. A sort of "must be this tall to fully wield" sort of standard where you again have something like a dormant to exalted progression, but rather than wielder milestones "unlocking" the weapon, the weapon grants it's wielder the suite of capacities provided as long as they're at a certain level benchmark. So a 4th level character has a +2 dagger that can basically do disguise self, BBEG grabs it and suddenly the dagger's blasting Power Word: Kill left and right.
Another dimension to this with sentient weapons, where the DM has the option of weapons' abilities that are known and controlled by the PC and abilities that are not necessarily known by the PC but controlled by the item (Shield of the Hidden Lord gives you some sense as to how that works. I got three "strong personality" weapons (so far) in my game world Querilous Legat, often called Bickerblade, who needs to keep argumentatively stimulated to be fully invested in the fight, Absurdium, who will often pull stuff for the Lulz, and Caprice who will literally gamechange "upon further consideration." There's actually a whole "college" of these weapons somewhere, fortunately for my RP vocal chords, no party has opted to find it.
When this thread went active, my random playlist played me this again (TW, recounting some sexual harassment and mild profanity throughout):
And I can't contribute a conversation where I mention my steal of the Blade of Broken Mirrors without the X Files speech that is the basis for its personality in my game (tip: always use Professional Wrestlers as the basis for fiends):
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I try and run by the rule of:
Don't put anything in my game that my players can't have, take, steal, loot, ruin, kill, help, change, or modify.
If they can't interact with something there must be a catch. Perhaps it's destined for later or they're missing something but beyond that, if it's there, it's for them - at some point in the game.
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Simple. Curse em’. The players can either use them for cool powers and gain drawbacks (should probably be opposite to the benefits, increased strength means decreased dexterity etc.), or not use them.
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco.
No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
Well I imagine the OP is intending these items for later use, but I'd still frown on tantalization. Otherwise, yeah you're basically taking the Chekhov Law's rule of fiction/drama and applying it to TTRPGs. If the setting pays attention to a gun, it goes off. If the dungeon has a +5 Vorpal Blade laying around, the PCs get to play with it.
The Bonesaw is an awesome example of a cursed weapon. Totally destroys any hope of stealth, cuz sneakin' around is not the Bonesaw's way.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
They are merely copies of high level magic items...the governor-king couldn't tell the difference. But careful inspection reveals a trademark. Asking around, the PCs find that the trademark belongs to an exiled former member of the court. Tracking the maker down might lead the players to the real thing. (Which could be currently wielded by a warlord that needs to be defeated, after which it can be claimed, etc.) If you don't want to completely deprive your players, have them be super high end/magical replicas. So not the powerful item they thought it was, but still a +1/+2/etc version.