Semi-related: trying to watch this video Yamana linked, and I'm fourteen minutes in and already fully prepared to punch Nerd Immersion square in his facehole. STOP TALKING OVER THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THINGS, YOU JACKHOLE DX. THEY WILL TELL YOU THEIR INFORMATION, THEY CAN'T HEAR YOU RANTING AT THEM!
After your previous two posts in this thread I was about to ask if something happened to make you all zen and accepting and the reasonable sibling in our disfunctional family, 'rei. Seeing you express this heartfelt opinion (which I absolutely concur with) in all caps is reassuring, not going to lie. ;-)
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To be fair, or to be honest, NerdImmersion's whole thing is to make a big portentous deal out of anything, including what looked more like a "we're gonna keep on keeping on" than a "REVOLUTION" junket event. He's passionate about being a news breaker so leans to "this is important because viewer algorhythm". I mean, I did hear/get reminded about this roundtable via NerdImmersion's channel, but there was no way I was going to watch it "with" him. It's a great channel for hearing about rumors and doing deep dives into product leaks, but not so much for long form real time commentary.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I don't think it's a new edition. It's more likely cleaning up statblocks and presentation of existing rules since it's completely compatible with existing products.
Whatever else happens, I just hope they clear up the difference between melee weapon attack, and attack with a melee weapon. If they give me that, they can do whatever else they want.
I mean, that rule is pretty easy to figure out if you change the name from weapon attack to physical attack. You have magical attacks and physical attacks, each of which is either melee or ranged. You can make a melee physical attack without a melee weapon, or with one. A punch is a melee physical attack, but not an attack with a melee weapon because hands/feet/heads aren't weapons unless you have natural weapons.
I do think folks thinking 2024 is 6th edition really didn't listen to the announcement, since it was stated a revision of the core rulebooks and will be 100% compatible with books we already own. If WotC was planning to send DDB packing as well as others, they would have to do something with everything that is unlocked here. I do not know many players would repurchase everything we have unlocked here to use on WotC site, it would piss off to many folks and with all the nerd raging going on already over what they have stated would be a nail in the coffin for 5th edition.
I do think folks thinking 2024 is 6th edition really didn't listen to the announcement, since it was stated a revision of the core rulebooks and will be 100% compatible with books we already own. If WotC was planning to send DDB packing as well as others, they would have to do something with everything that is unlocked here. I do not know many players would repurchase everything we have unlocked here to use on WotC site, it would piss off to many folks and with all the nerd raging going on already over what they have stated would be a nail in the coffin for 5th edition.
I mean, we've had an edition war with every previous new edition and yet they were all financially successful, even 4E. Let's not oversell the power of nerd rage either. 5E's popularity is unprecedented and that might make a difference this time around, but that's a very different argument. There's always going to be complaining about money spent on previous editions, but people get over that.
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D&D Beyond could be in trouble but I doubt it. It will depend on whether Wizards of the Coast is going to enter into the digital market with their own VTT tools and I haven't seen any signs that they are going that direction. Its a pretty hot market though and there is a lot of money to be made there, it would probably be a good approach to create a new edition and release it with fully functional VTT tools. Given that this next edition will probably resemble something along the lines of 3.5, they can probably start building those tools long before the new edition goes to print.
I don't think DDB is in trouble at all unless there's some dramatic announcements from Wizards in the winter. I did think it was fun to try to rumor an editor riot at GenCon, but I got my event wrong.
In either case its way too early to say much about it, any predictions that can be made right now about what will be in the new edition would be based on what we know about how Wizards of the Coast operates and how the RPG publishing world works. In that regard making a 100% compatible rulebook is a huge mistake, you will always make considerably less money and sell considerably fewer books if all you are doing is "refreshing" the edition. For a new rulebook to stay relevant it needs to feel like a worthy enough upgrade that every D&D player will feel obligated to buy if they want to continue to play "the current D&D".
Their next big release after Strixhaven is in fact a bundling of two prior published books and a repackaging of a Monster tomes with some player option bundled as one volume (basically Mord's and Volo's revamped, so to speak) that can all be considered "refresh" (I'd actually say the Tashas and Xanathar's were described as reprints more than updates with maybe some errata in there). I think over the next few years there will be diversification of price point products. Beedle and Grimms was mentioned a lot during this event. More than I can remember in the past. As I've said elsewhere, they've learned from their relationship that there is a market for an "upsold" consumer, but they know they can't take the whole player base there. Much like it's perfectly possible to play the games with the Essentials Kit. I see a continuation of that diversity of ways into and ways to sustain D&D play which is sort of what they;ve even doing it for a few years now, just a few more top shelf and hopefully some more entry level products as well. Folks who spend a lot of time on this board, with complete collections of all the hardcovers ... are a minority of the market. As I said in another thread, there's a lot of ways to play the game, some a lot more affordable than others.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It will be 100% compatible with the previous edition has been the mantra for every edition of D&D ever released by Wizards of the Coast and I'm not sure you could fully argue that has it been even in the ballpark of true, even the Essentials line for 4e which I would argue came the closest to being fully compatible, many argued was not. I personally would argue that 3.5 was compatible enough to 3.0 that most of the material could be used, but I would not want to debate that with 3rd edition fans.
Erm... Agree to disagree, I guess? The half editions (3.5 and Essentials) were fairly to completely compatible - 3.5 made a bunch of changes, but nothing that wasn't interchangeable without breaking stuff, and Essentials is just a slightly restricted version of 4E with different packaging (slightly confusing, sure, and there were some issues with the followup books, but Essentials was really 4E). I don't recall any promises about backwards compatibility between 3.5 and 4E, and there was no such promise for 3rd edition with regards to TSR rulesets (heck, WotC put out a conversion manual with the release of 3rd ed, I should still have a copy lying around somewhere). One of the stated intents for 5E was to design a system that would allow using as much content as possible players owned from previous editions, but that's a fairly vague statement and really nothing on par with "backwards compatibility".
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It will be 100% compatible with the previous edition has been the mantra for every edition of D&D ever released by Wizards of the Coast and I'm not sure you could fully argue that has it been even in the ballpark of true, even the Essentials line for 4e which I would argue came the closest to being fully compatible, many argued was not. I personally would argue that 3.5 was compatible enough to 3.0 that most of the material could be used, but I would not want to debate that with 3rd edition fans.
Erm... Agree to disagree, I guess? The half editions (3.5 and Essentials) were fairly to completely compatible - 3.5 made a bunch of changes, but nothing that wasn't interchangeable without breaking stuff, and Essentials is just a slightly restricted version of 4E with different packaging (slightly confusing, sure, and there were some issues with the followup books, but Essentials was really 4E). I don't recall any promises about backwards compatibility between 3.5 and 4E, and there was no such promise for 3rd edition with regards to TSR rulesets (heck, WotC put out a conversion manual with the release of 3rd ed, I should still have a copy lying around somewhere). One of the stated intents for 5E was to design a system that would allow using as much content as possible players owned from previous editions, but that's a fairly vague statement and really nothing on par with "backwards compatibility".
Sorry I meant to say "sub-edition" as in.. 4e to essentials, 3e to 3.5 and even TSR's 1e to 2e.
Well, that makes it just two instances for WotC, and I would say I can definitely "fully argue that has it been even in the ballpark of true". No offense to anyone who feels differently, but that's absolutely what I'd argue.
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Folks who spend a lot of time on this board, with complete collections of all the hardcovers ... are a minority of the market.
On these boards, I would venture to guess that is true, but the RPG market as a whole in particular D&D is still very much predominantly a hardcover books market and a table game. Digital tools have seen a big surge thanks to the pandemic and I think will continue to grow in popularity, but release a digital-only D&D today and you will lose more than half your audience overnight. There might come a time when a site like D&D beyond and digital-only games will replace printed books in the future, but we are still a long way off from that.
People want their books, it's a big part of the allure of the game almost like a collector's market. In fact, publishers are discovering that people are even willing to buy the same book twice just because it has a different cover or is a collectors edition. D&D has certainly seen a lot of that too. Bundle, special Kickstarter, collectors editions, special edition reprints... its a really hot market right now.
I think you missed my point entirely. My point was that the "completest," those with all the hardcover books, are in fact a minority of WotC's market, so your sense that there will be significant sales of obligation I don't think is on as sturdy footing as you think. Through experiments with the Essentials/Basics/Rick+Morty/Stranger Things editions ... maybe skewed toward more casual play on one end, and authorizing the Beedle and Grim $500 boxes (which is why we have Strahd Revamped Boxed Set) ... skewed to those for whom gaming is a centerpiece lifestyle choice on the other seems to indicated thinking that both can be "good business" for WotC. They have the capacity to engage multiple types of consumer pricepoint engagement. Yes, the completist is the whale of the hobby, but to follow the casino analogy, a lot of folks come in just to play slots and there's a range of player engagement styles between those posts. Yes, WotC would want folks to buy the new re-whatevered core books, I just don't think they'll be as essential to stay current as say the switch from 4e to 5e or even the 3e to 3.5 shift. It's in the way they've been talking about the game to date. They're starting to be more explicit that they will be a new packaging of rules in the near future, but I'm still going to wait to see what they'll be saying about it between now and January.
As far as mooning over the Kickstarter etc. phenomenon. Yes a lot of money is paid toward Kickstarters for a diversity of products nominally to played with "the world's greatest role playing game." There are very few completists in that department too. If anything the popularity of Kickstarters and frankly the indy press kickstarter proliferations shows if anything D&D games are more myriad and differing assemblages and maybe D&D HQ shouldn't so much produce a bunch of books "everyone must have" but rather a "diversity of products" to satisfy an increasingly diverse player community with varying wants and needs, including different forms of rules compilation. I'd be very surprised if come 2024/25, when the first big adventure published after the "new core" that there'd be any difficulty playing it with the current core rulesets, or even the Basic Rules.
The difference between this announcement and prior new editions announcements is that the language seems much more attached to the 5e rules, than prior press at various "edition junctures".
I mean, did you watch the presentation or are you just reactioneering to comport with some sort of laws of editions a lot of folks seem to adhere too which seems more numerology than business numbers?
Looks like I'm getting a belted.Christmas present then! Inwas contrmplating getting TCoE and XGtE, glad I didn't! I'm curious whether they'll update DDB existing copies or insist on people buying them again.
They're exactly the same books, aren't they? Only Volokainen's is new.
One of the posts said that both TCoE and XGtE were both being updated, so as a person who is buying the physical books, that's a reason why it was good that I held off. If you're referencing my DDB comment, it really depends on what they mean by "updated". It could just be a reprint.with changes which should just be a free update to current books. Or it could be a 2.0 and they'll insist that it is in fact a new book and therefore bought separately.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Looks like I'm getting a belted.Christmas present then! Inwas contrmplating getting TCoE and XGtE, glad I didn't! I'm curious whether they'll update DDB existing copies or insist on people buying them again.
They're exactly the same books, aren't they? Only Volokainen's is new.
One of the posts said that both TCoE and XGtE were both being updated, so as a person who is buying the physical books, that's a reason why it was good that I held off. If you're referencing my DDB comment, it really depends on what they mean by "updated". It could just be a reprint.with changes which should just be a free update to current books. Or it could be a 2.0 and they'll insist that it is in fact a new book and therefore bought separately.
on the Xanathar's and Tasha's book I believe its just an update which is my hope, I just wonder when we can buy the Monster book as a single book not as a part of the 3 book group.
I gotta say, knowing DDB’s policy on automatic updates, the more WotC decides to keep on changing shit, the more and more I start to regret purchasing here instead of in print.
I predict that before 6e comes out it will be a new edition of the game, separate from this one, different enough that replacing all the books will be necessary to play the new "currently supported" edition of the game.
Just so we're clear, when you're referring to 6e in this statement you're referring to the books announced for 2024? Not something further down the line? Because the consolidated Mordenkainen/Volo book to be included in the set feels like that'll still be largely the same, 5th, edition to me.
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Very hyped for Monsters of the Multiverse. Hopefully genasi get a revamp to no longer be completely useless.
Nervous, but cautiously optimistic for 5.5 (or whatever it will be called). Backwards compatibility is really good. And hopefully it will fix some of my gripes with this edition.... But then again, it could also double down on all my issues, and remove everything I like about 5e.
If it actually is backwards compatible with 5e (ie I'm not going to have issues running my previously bought adventures), then I excited. Nothing against WotC in particular, but businesses have left me cynical and I'm concerned that it'll be a feature that will be dropped or what they mean is "with substantial work, you can modify your adventures to be able to be played, albeit suboptimally". So, I'm both excited and anxious at the same time.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
"I can actually reveal today that we have earlier this year - we began work on the next evolution of Dungeons and Dragons - new versions of the Core Rule Books, which will be coming out in 2024 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Dungeons and Dragons ... with the surveys we have been giving out ... the next evolution of the game ... we are doing the best to give you the version of the game that you really want; so we can't really say much more yet about what our plans are, as we are still making them; but you are gonna see more surveys like that .... next year - the timing is next year, so next year we will have plenty more to say about those books and what they mean for D&D .... one thing by the way I can assure you these new versions of the books are gonna be completley compatible with all those 5th Edition products that you already own and love and all those products that we will release between now and then .... so next year we will have more to say."
That's more or less word for word what was said by Ray Winninger.
Could mean anything from 5.5 to 6th edition.
From this “word for word” description it sounds like it isn’t even 5.5, just updating the early classes etc to fall in line with the current design philosophy. So yeah, if draconic sorcerer now has an additional spell list like the new sorcerers, and a few subclass features updated, it’s backwards compatible with current gameplay
I honestly believe it will be small (some of them will be seen as big changes) to the rules. Very little change to the core mechanics, but expect Species rules to go the way of the latest races with choose x stats (ie 2 and 1, or 3 1's) not in particular stats. And Major rework on Classes and earlier Subclasses. Then tweaks were required, i doubt we see a massive totally rework on how DnD is played, no I don't expect to see action, bonus action, move to go away for 3 actions or anything like that. Overall we will see over the coming years, pretty sure we see releases of parts of the rules for review and beta'ing over the coming years. I been playing from 2nd though to now this is nothing I not seen before and I am happy it's coming.
After your previous two posts in this thread I was about to ask if something happened to make you all zen and accepting and the reasonable sibling in our disfunctional family, 'rei. Seeing you express this heartfelt opinion (which I absolutely concur with) in all caps is reassuring, not going to lie. ;-)
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
To be fair, or to be honest, NerdImmersion's whole thing is to make a big portentous deal out of anything, including what looked more like a "we're gonna keep on keeping on" than a "REVOLUTION" junket event. He's passionate about being a news breaker so leans to "this is important because viewer algorhythm". I mean, I did hear/get reminded about this roundtable via NerdImmersion's channel, but there was no way I was going to watch it "with" him. It's a great channel for hearing about rumors and doing deep dives into product leaks, but not so much for long form real time commentary.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I don't think it's a new edition. It's more likely cleaning up statblocks and presentation of existing rules since it's completely compatible with existing products.
I mean, that rule is pretty easy to figure out if you change the name from weapon attack to physical attack. You have magical attacks and physical attacks, each of which is either melee or ranged. You can make a melee physical attack without a melee weapon, or with one. A punch is a melee physical attack, but not an attack with a melee weapon because hands/feet/heads aren't weapons unless you have natural weapons.
I do think folks thinking 2024 is 6th edition really didn't listen to the announcement, since it was stated a revision of the core rulebooks and will be 100% compatible with books we already own. If WotC was planning to send DDB packing as well as others, they would have to do something with everything that is unlocked here. I do not know many players would repurchase everything we have unlocked here to use on WotC site, it would piss off to many folks and with all the nerd raging going on already over what they have stated would be a nail in the coffin for 5th edition.
I mean, we've had an edition war with every previous new edition and yet they were all financially successful, even 4E. Let's not oversell the power of nerd rage either. 5E's popularity is unprecedented and that might make a difference this time around, but that's a very different argument. There's always going to be complaining about money spent on previous editions, but people get over that.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don't think DDB is in trouble at all unless there's some dramatic announcements from Wizards in the winter. I did think it was fun to try to rumor an editor riot at GenCon, but I got my event wrong.
Their next big release after Strixhaven is in fact a bundling of two prior published books and a repackaging of a Monster tomes with some player option bundled as one volume (basically Mord's and Volo's revamped, so to speak) that can all be considered "refresh" (I'd actually say the Tashas and Xanathar's were described as reprints more than updates with maybe some errata in there). I think over the next few years there will be diversification of price point products. Beedle and Grimms was mentioned a lot during this event. More than I can remember in the past. As I've said elsewhere, they've learned from their relationship that there is a market for an "upsold" consumer, but they know they can't take the whole player base there. Much like it's perfectly possible to play the games with the Essentials Kit. I see a continuation of that diversity of ways into and ways to sustain D&D play which is sort of what they;ve even doing it for a few years now, just a few more top shelf and hopefully some more entry level products as well. Folks who spend a lot of time on this board, with complete collections of all the hardcovers ... are a minority of the market. As I said in another thread, there's a lot of ways to play the game, some a lot more affordable than others.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Erm... Agree to disagree, I guess? The half editions (3.5 and Essentials) were fairly to completely compatible - 3.5 made a bunch of changes, but nothing that wasn't interchangeable without breaking stuff, and Essentials is just a slightly restricted version of 4E with different packaging (slightly confusing, sure, and there were some issues with the followup books, but Essentials was really 4E). I don't recall any promises about backwards compatibility between 3.5 and 4E, and there was no such promise for 3rd edition with regards to TSR rulesets (heck, WotC put out a conversion manual with the release of 3rd ed, I should still have a copy lying around somewhere). One of the stated intents for 5E was to design a system that would allow using as much content as possible players owned from previous editions, but that's a fairly vague statement and really nothing on par with "backwards compatibility".
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Well, that makes it just two instances for WotC, and I would say I can definitely "fully argue that has it been even in the ballpark of true". No offense to anyone who feels differently, but that's absolutely what I'd argue.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I think you missed my point entirely. My point was that the "completest," those with all the hardcover books, are in fact a minority of WotC's market, so your sense that there will be significant sales of obligation I don't think is on as sturdy footing as you think. Through experiments with the Essentials/Basics/Rick+Morty/Stranger Things editions ... maybe skewed toward more casual play on one end, and authorizing the Beedle and Grim $500 boxes (which is why we have Strahd Revamped Boxed Set) ... skewed to those for whom gaming is a centerpiece lifestyle choice on the other seems to indicated thinking that both can be "good business" for WotC. They have the capacity to engage multiple types of consumer pricepoint engagement. Yes, the completist is the whale of the hobby, but to follow the casino analogy, a lot of folks come in just to play slots and there's a range of player engagement styles between those posts. Yes, WotC would want folks to buy the new re-whatevered core books, I just don't think they'll be as essential to stay current as say the switch from 4e to 5e or even the 3e to 3.5 shift. It's in the way they've been talking about the game to date. They're starting to be more explicit that they will be a new packaging of rules in the near future, but I'm still going to wait to see what they'll be saying about it between now and January.
As far as mooning over the Kickstarter etc. phenomenon. Yes a lot of money is paid toward Kickstarters for a diversity of products nominally to played with "the world's greatest role playing game." There are very few completists in that department too. If anything the popularity of Kickstarters and frankly the indy press kickstarter proliferations shows if anything D&D games are more myriad and differing assemblages and maybe D&D HQ shouldn't so much produce a bunch of books "everyone must have" but rather a "diversity of products" to satisfy an increasingly diverse player community with varying wants and needs, including different forms of rules compilation. I'd be very surprised if come 2024/25, when the first big adventure published after the "new core" that there'd be any difficulty playing it with the current core rulesets, or even the Basic Rules.
The difference between this announcement and prior new editions announcements is that the language seems much more attached to the 5e rules, than prior press at various "edition junctures".
I mean, did you watch the presentation or are you just reactioneering to comport with some sort of laws of editions a lot of folks seem to adhere too which seems more numerology than business numbers?
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
One of the posts said that both TCoE and XGtE were both being updated, so as a person who is buying the physical books, that's a reason why it was good that I held off. If you're referencing my DDB comment, it really depends on what they mean by "updated". It could just be a reprint.with changes which should just be a free update to current books. Or it could be a 2.0 and they'll insist that it is in fact a new book and therefore bought separately.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
on the Xanathar's and Tasha's book I believe its just an update which is my hope, I just wonder when we can buy the Monster book as a single book not as a part of the 3 book group.
I gotta say, knowing DDB’s policy on automatic updates, the more WotC decides to keep on changing shit, the more and more I start to regret purchasing here instead of in print.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Just so we're clear, when you're referring to 6e in this statement you're referring to the books announced for 2024? Not something further down the line? Because the consolidated Mordenkainen/Volo book to be included in the set feels like that'll still be largely the same, 5th, edition to me.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Very hyped for Monsters of the Multiverse. Hopefully genasi get a revamp to no longer be completely useless.
Nervous, but cautiously optimistic for 5.5 (or whatever it will be called). Backwards compatibility is really good. And hopefully it will fix some of my gripes with this edition.... But then again, it could also double down on all my issues, and remove everything I like about 5e.
If it actually is backwards compatible with 5e (ie I'm not going to have issues running my previously bought adventures), then I excited. Nothing against WotC in particular, but businesses have left me cynical and I'm concerned that it'll be a feature that will be dropped or what they mean is "with substantial work, you can modify your adventures to be able to be played, albeit suboptimally". So, I'm both excited and anxious at the same time.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
From this “word for word” description it sounds like it isn’t even 5.5, just updating the early classes etc to fall in line with the current design philosophy. So yeah, if draconic sorcerer now has an additional spell list like the new sorcerers, and a few subclass features updated, it’s backwards compatible with current gameplay
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I honestly believe it will be small (some of them will be seen as big changes) to the rules. Very little change to the core mechanics, but expect Species rules to go the way of the latest races with choose x stats (ie 2 and 1, or 3 1's) not in particular stats. And Major rework on Classes and earlier Subclasses. Then tweaks were required, i doubt we see a massive totally rework on how DnD is played, no I don't expect to see action, bonus action, move to go away for 3 actions or anything like that. Overall we will see over the coming years, pretty sure we see releases of parts of the rules for review and beta'ing over the coming years. I been playing from 2nd though to now this is nothing I not seen before and I am happy it's coming.
You have a way with words!
Very exciting news yet very little announced in concrete terms! ☺