Longtime supporter of DDB here. Been an active user since launch. Not so active on these boards in recent months, but the big news this week has prompted my return.
I know the policy has always been to not give out too much information about what's being worked on behind the scenes. I'm sure this is due to both NDAs from WotC and from the simple desire to not set expectations they aren't 100% sure they'll be able to meet.
However I feel like the recent news does yield some inquiry about the future of DDB, and I feel that paying customers deserve some transparency about our investments into this product.
What we know for sure is that D&D will undergo the next step in its evolution in 2024, and that this evolution is promised to be backwards compatible. We also know that WotC is developing digital tools in house.
What I specifically think we deserve to know is if DDB will be forwards-compatible with this new evolution. We know that DDB is the official digital toolset for D&D 5e, but we don't know if it will continue to be for 5.5e, or whatever the branding for it ends up being. If it will support these new rules, it behooves both Fandom and WotC to provide some reassurance of this.
Realistically, it makes sense that DDB will be able to still license the D&D IP the same way that Roll20 does, but it doesn't make sense for WotC to continue to offer that license when they are now selling a competing product in house.
Maintaining the usual sort of vagueness makes me uneasy about spending more money with either company. If DDB is nearing a wall of obsolescence, do I want to continue to build my collection on the platform? If the next evolution is truly backwards compatible, WotC will certainly offer all legacy 5e resources on their new platform. If WotC would allow their customer base to keep spending money on a platform they no longer plan to support in the future, why should I support their new platform? I understand how DDB would want to keep making sales until they are no longer able to, but it also strikes to the same level of corporate dishonesty if they are taking our money with no plan for what happens beyond 2024. They may not even know yet, but I feel like we should at least know where things stand even if there's no news to report.
My hopes are that this is being done cooperatively, and that DDB is part of the plan for these new digital tools, or at least that the accounts will be linkable and that purchases here will be honored there, but I feel like I know better than to hope for this.
I've been a longtime supporter of DDB and what the team is doing, argued here in the trenches on why it is fair to make people "pay twice" ad nauseam, so it does pain me to write this. My hopes are that this will be addressed in some part on tomorrow's Dev Update, but that has also seemed to be more of a produced broadcast with less room for deep dive Q&As than it did with Adam at the helm. The few questions that get asked seem to be curated to fit the theme of the episode, so I hope these concerns at least reach the ears that need them.
You're right in saying they don't owe me anything. They are well within their rights to be like "You bought what you bought. Get lost, sucker" and I'd have no recourse other than to deal with it.
That has not been my experience with the DDB team though, so I am at least attempting to make an appeal for some degree of clarity.
As far as competing digital tools go. Nike sells shoes in stores and directly to consumers without issues. They do this specifically by NOT outcompeting their vendors. Nike could sell at lower prices than their vendors, because they can cut out the middleman markup. However, if they did that, the vendors who purchase millions of pairs from them to sell would stop selling Nike.
As far as competing digital tools go. Nike sells shoes in stores and directly to consumers without issues. They do this specifically by NOT outcompeting their vendors. Nike could sell at lower prices than their vendors, because they can cut out the middleman markup. However, if they did that, the vendors who purchase millions of pairs from them to sell would stop selling Nike.
If that's the case I believe it would be a good thing to say so. Or say something like "Details are still being worked out but we're committed to..." etc etc.
But the announcement this week is the big news in the D&D sphere. If they don't address it at all, it just comes off as bad news. Even if they don't mention specific plans and just show some excitement for this news, that would serve as a good omen to me.
If DDB don't owe it to customers to be open and clear about what the future holds, then customers don't owe it to DDB to buy any of their products or support them. Nobody wins that way. It's best to be open with each other.
Personally, I won't buy DDB products until I can be reasonably confident that my investment is safe. I appreciate that they may know little more than we do, I'm not upset or angry, but perhaps it would provide incentive for WotC to clarify what "backwards compatible" will mean and to reassure us that DDB is still a safe and secure platform that we can have confidence in.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is two years away. Personally, I'm ok with paying the cost of a meal at a restaurant to use a given product for at least two more years. I agree with the gist of OP's post, but for me we are about a year out from the point where I'd really start to reconsider DDB investments, and I expect we'll know a lot more by then.
This is two years away. Personally, I'm ok with paying the cost of a meal at a restaurant to use a given product for at least two more years. I agree with the gist of OP's post, but for me we are about a year out from the point where I'd really start to reconsider DDB investments, and I expect we'll know a lot more by then.
If there's any chance that I may lose access, I'd rather mitigate that risk and go ahead and just buy the hardcover which I can access at any time well beyond 2024 (provided it's not somehow damaged).
I would prefer to continue using DDB though. I just want to know if it will still be viable for the foreseeable future. If yes, we're good!
You're right in saying they don't owe me anything. They are well within their rights to be like "You bought what you bought. Get lost, sucker" and I'd have no recourse other than to deal with it.
Depends on what you mean by 'sucker'. It it's just about not being licensed to support a 5.5e or whatever it is, then I can't agree. It would be disappointing, but current products don't become obsolete. If it's about DDB losing licensing/ distribution agreements for content currently available for order and pre-order, then sure, that would be messed up. However, I don't think there is any reason to believe that would be the case. I don't know what specific terms DDB and WotC have, but it would be strange that current user licenses could be revoked in this way.
I appreciate everyone's rationale, but right now without any official word all we can do is speculate, and positive speculation doesn't do much to calm my fearful speculation. I don't really think my DDB content will just evaporate, but I don't know that it won't either.
But either way, if the license does not carry over into 5.5e, that could feasibly limit my ability to play that edition. I could still use DDB to play a 5e character if it's backwards compatible, but it would potentially cut me off from features and improvements that could exist in the updated rules if DDB is not also forward-compatible.
It may be fine in the long run, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable to ask for some reassurance. I'm not angry at anyone, I'm just honestly expressing a valid concern as someone who bought in expecting many more years of enjoyment.
Call me pragmatic, call me cynical, but I don't think DDB or WotC have any financial motivation to make an announcement about ending the partnership any sooner than they absolutely have to. In fact, if they have plans for switching to in-house tools it's WotC in WotC's purely financial interests not to inform DDB until the last moment. So I wouldn't be expecting any announcement soon if that's the way things are headed - which, to be very clear, is a big if.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Call me pragmatic, call me cynical, but I don't think DDB or WotC have any financial motivation to make an announcement about ending the partnership any sooner than they absolutely have to. In fact, if they have plans for switching to in-house tools it's WotC in WotC's purely financial interests not to inform DDB until the last moment. So I wouldn't be expecting any announcement soon if that's the way things are headed - which, to be very clear, is a big if.
Oh I agree 100%. If there is a planned obsolescence, announcing that in advance would hurt everyone's bottom line. That doesn't mean it's okay though.
But yeah I share your logic. No news is bad news in this case.
Call me pragmatic, call me cynical, but I don't think DDB or WotC have any financial motivation to make an announcement about ending the partnership any sooner than they absolutely have to. In fact, if they have plans for switching to in-house tools it's WotC in WotC's purely financial interests not to inform DDB until the last moment. So I wouldn't be expecting any announcement soon if that's the way things are headed - which, to be very clear, is a big if.
Oh I agree 100%. If there is a planned obsolescence, announcing that in advance would hurt everyone's bottom line. That doesn't mean it's okay though.
But yeah I share your logic. No news is bad news in this case.
No. No news is no news. Could be bad, could be nothing. Good is unlikely, sure, but it's not necessarily bad.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I mean yeah. Anything could happen. But if there is good news, it makes more sense to share it. It may not happen right now this very second, but I'm just putting my concerns out there because I know the DDB team checks these boards and to see if anyone else feels the same way.
If it ends up that I'm being silly and ultimately have nothing to worry about, that's the best outcome IMO.
But if there is good news, it makes more sense to share it.
What possible "good news" could they have right now that they'd be able to share?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't believe DDB has the inside track to really provide any clarity for the future. Like, I don't think they know a book is in the pipeline until the Book is announced to the public, maybe a little ahead so they can update their store ... but I guarantee they don't know what 2024 looks like.
EDIT: I should add that, while I don't really have a dog in this fight or at least am ambivalent about the concern, I'll say from the tea leaves presented so far it looks to me like D&D 2024 is going to be simply a consolidation of 5e to date with clarifications. They won't be a lot of new. Why would they change the format for presenting monsters in 5es for a barely two year window with the new Monsters of the Multiverse book? I don't see any system reason why DDB (which got a few shout outs during the Celebration event, and maybe even in the forecasting panel) would be unable to support the future. It comes down to whether Wizards believes they can build a DDB equivalent better on their own. But that's just speculation which is all you'll really get until Wizards starts being more specific about the future, which is evidently starting in short order via Sage Advice columns.
It is not uncommon for D&D games to span over the course of multiple years. My last campaign was 3+ years. So 2024 could be just one campaign away for a lot of people.
I don't think it's out of order to ask if I should continue to buy materials for use beyond that date. If they know that it might be a risky purchase but continue to allow people to make those purchases without any acknowledgement, I see that as a problem.
And look, I understand that WotC is free to license their IP to whomever they see fit on their own terms. If something bad does happen with existing content or access to new content on here, I understand that it will likely be out of DDB's hands. I assume it is their preference to continue their relationship with WotC. Even if DDB doesn't know, but WotC does, and WotC allows people to make those kinds of purchases, I see that as a problem.
If your goal in commenting is to reassure me that everything is fine, I do appreciate the intent. If your goal is mark my concerns as invalid, I would prefer if you kept those notions to yourself. Some comments seem to have that tone. If an admin decides this discussion is inappropriate, they can remove it and I will not protest.
I don't think anyone is invalidating your ability to ask the question. However the feedback you're getting is anticipating, and I think realistically the response. They're not common but there are a number of threads on this forum asking "what happens to all my DDB stuff if WotC goes 6e and DDB isn't able to follow." You may want to look through those threads and see where DDB spoxpeople speak up. DDB plans to go forward with DDB. Obviously that's easier for them if their work is engaged with whatever edition WotC is presently supporting, but DDB has not right to assert that claim. If you don't want a community response and want a staff response, you might want to bounce a few forums up to where customer service staff engage more frequently.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yeah I just think the confirmation of WotC's own in house digital tools kind of changes the conversation, or at least makes it relevant to reiterate. And in all fairness, we don't know what those digital tools are. DDB may actually be a big part of that project as well. It's possible that there's nothing but good news and big surprises on the horizon. But my point is that we don't know, and the usual vagueness doesn't help to calm any of my fears. I know they don't have any obligation to mitigate my individual feelings, but I also don't have any obligation to continue to invest in this platform. I would like to, but in order for that to happen, I need more information. If it can't be helped, so be it, but this is just me giving them every chance to win back my confidence. If it isn't brought up, it can't be addressed. I assume I'm not the only one with these concerns, but maybe I am. As I said before, the best case scenario for me is that I'm worked up over nothing.
Longtime supporter of DDB here. Been an active user since launch. Not so active on these boards in recent months, but the big news this week has prompted my return.
I know the policy has always been to not give out too much information about what's being worked on behind the scenes. I'm sure this is due to both NDAs from WotC and from the simple desire to not set expectations they aren't 100% sure they'll be able to meet.
However I feel like the recent news does yield some inquiry about the future of DDB, and I feel that paying customers deserve some transparency about our investments into this product.
What we know for sure is that D&D will undergo the next step in its evolution in 2024, and that this evolution is promised to be backwards compatible. We also know that WotC is developing digital tools in house.
What I specifically think we deserve to know is if DDB will be forwards-compatible with this new evolution. We know that DDB is the official digital toolset for D&D 5e, but we don't know if it will continue to be for 5.5e, or whatever the branding for it ends up being. If it will support these new rules, it behooves both Fandom and WotC to provide some reassurance of this.
Realistically, it makes sense that DDB will be able to still license the D&D IP the same way that Roll20 does, but it doesn't make sense for WotC to continue to offer that license when they are now selling a competing product in house.
Maintaining the usual sort of vagueness makes me uneasy about spending more money with either company. If DDB is nearing a wall of obsolescence, do I want to continue to build my collection on the platform? If the next evolution is truly backwards compatible, WotC will certainly offer all legacy 5e resources on their new platform. If WotC would allow their customer base to keep spending money on a platform they no longer plan to support in the future, why should I support their new platform? I understand how DDB would want to keep making sales until they are no longer able to, but it also strikes to the same level of corporate dishonesty if they are taking our money with no plan for what happens beyond 2024. They may not even know yet, but I feel like we should at least know where things stand even if there's no news to report.
My hopes are that this is being done cooperatively, and that DDB is part of the plan for these new digital tools, or at least that the accounts will be linkable and that purchases here will be honored there, but I feel like I know better than to hope for this.
I've been a longtime supporter of DDB and what the team is doing, argued here in the trenches on why it is fair to make people "pay twice" ad nauseam, so it does pain me to write this. My hopes are that this will be addressed in some part on tomorrow's Dev Update, but that has also seemed to be more of a produced broadcast with less room for deep dive Q&As than it did with Adam at the helm. The few questions that get asked seem to be curated to fit the theme of the episode, so I hope these concerns at least reach the ears that need them.
You're right in saying they don't owe me anything. They are well within their rights to be like "You bought what you bought. Get lost, sucker" and I'd have no recourse other than to deal with it.
That has not been my experience with the DDB team though, so I am at least attempting to make an appeal for some degree of clarity.
As far as competing digital tools go. Nike sells shoes in stores and directly to consumers without issues. They do this specifically by NOT outcompeting their vendors. Nike could sell at lower prices than their vendors, because they can cut out the middleman markup. However, if they did that, the vendors who purchase millions of pairs from them to sell would stop selling Nike.
If that's the case I believe it would be a good thing to say so. Or say something like "Details are still being worked out but we're committed to..." etc etc.
But the announcement this week is the big news in the D&D sphere. If they don't address it at all, it just comes off as bad news. Even if they don't mention specific plans and just show some excitement for this news, that would serve as a good omen to me.
If DDB don't owe it to customers to be open and clear about what the future holds, then customers don't owe it to DDB to buy any of their products or support them. Nobody wins that way. It's best to be open with each other.
Personally, I won't buy DDB products until I can be reasonably confident that my investment is safe. I appreciate that they may know little more than we do, I'm not upset or angry, but perhaps it would provide incentive for WotC to clarify what "backwards compatible" will mean and to reassure us that DDB is still a safe and secure platform that we can have confidence in.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Also, the Dev Update is tomorrow, not today.
Yeah my bad. I sat down waiting for it to come on too lol. Edited above.
This is two years away. Personally, I'm ok with paying the cost of a meal at a restaurant to use a given product for at least two more years. I agree with the gist of OP's post, but for me we are about a year out from the point where I'd really start to reconsider DDB investments, and I expect we'll know a lot more by then.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
If there's any chance that I may lose access, I'd rather mitigate that risk and go ahead and just buy the hardcover which I can access at any time well beyond 2024 (provided it's not somehow damaged).
I would prefer to continue using DDB though. I just want to know if it will still be viable for the foreseeable future. If yes, we're good!
I appreciate everyone's rationale, but right now without any official word all we can do is speculate, and positive speculation doesn't do much to calm my fearful speculation. I don't really think my DDB content will just evaporate, but I don't know that it won't either.
But either way, if the license does not carry over into 5.5e, that could feasibly limit my ability to play that edition. I could still use DDB to play a 5e character if it's backwards compatible, but it would potentially cut me off from features and improvements that could exist in the updated rules if DDB is not also forward-compatible.
It may be fine in the long run, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable to ask for some reassurance. I'm not angry at anyone, I'm just honestly expressing a valid concern as someone who bought in expecting many more years of enjoyment.
Call me pragmatic, call me cynical, but I don't think DDB or WotC have any financial motivation to make an announcement about ending the partnership any sooner than they absolutely have to. In fact, if they have plans for switching to in-house tools it's WotC in WotC's purely financial interests not to inform DDB until the last moment. So I wouldn't be expecting any announcement soon if that's the way things are headed - which, to be very clear, is a big if.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Oh I agree 100%. If there is a planned obsolescence, announcing that in advance would hurt everyone's bottom line. That doesn't mean it's okay though.
But yeah I share your logic. No news is bad news in this case.
No. No news is no news. Could be bad, could be nothing. Good is unlikely, sure, but it's not necessarily bad.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I mean yeah. Anything could happen. But if there is good news, it makes more sense to share it. It may not happen right now this very second, but I'm just putting my concerns out there because I know the DDB team checks these boards and to see if anyone else feels the same way.
If it ends up that I'm being silly and ultimately have nothing to worry about, that's the best outcome IMO.
What possible "good news" could they have right now that they'd be able to share?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't believe DDB has the inside track to really provide any clarity for the future. Like, I don't think they know a book is in the pipeline until the Book is announced to the public, maybe a little ahead so they can update their store ... but I guarantee they don't know what 2024 looks like.
EDIT: I should add that, while I don't really have a dog in this fight or at least am ambivalent about the concern, I'll say from the tea leaves presented so far it looks to me like D&D 2024 is going to be simply a consolidation of 5e to date with clarifications. They won't be a lot of new. Why would they change the format for presenting monsters in 5es for a barely two year window with the new Monsters of the Multiverse book? I don't see any system reason why DDB (which got a few shout outs during the Celebration event, and maybe even in the forecasting panel) would be unable to support the future. It comes down to whether Wizards believes they can build a DDB equivalent better on their own. But that's just speculation which is all you'll really get until Wizards starts being more specific about the future, which is evidently starting in short order via Sage Advice columns.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
And they would certainly not come out and tell us if they won't be able to support it, or are losing their licence.
Ridiculous to even think that they should.
It is not uncommon for D&D games to span over the course of multiple years. My last campaign was 3+ years. So 2024 could be just one campaign away for a lot of people.
I don't think it's out of order to ask if I should continue to buy materials for use beyond that date. If they know that it might be a risky purchase but continue to allow people to make those purchases without any acknowledgement, I see that as a problem.
And look, I understand that WotC is free to license their IP to whomever they see fit on their own terms. If something bad does happen with existing content or access to new content on here, I understand that it will likely be out of DDB's hands. I assume it is their preference to continue their relationship with WotC. Even if DDB doesn't know, but WotC does, and WotC allows people to make those kinds of purchases, I see that as a problem.
If your goal in commenting is to reassure me that everything is fine, I do appreciate the intent. If your goal is mark my concerns as invalid, I would prefer if you kept those notions to yourself. Some comments seem to have that tone. If an admin decides this discussion is inappropriate, they can remove it and I will not protest.
I don't think anyone is invalidating your ability to ask the question. However the feedback you're getting is anticipating, and I think realistically the response. They're not common but there are a number of threads on this forum asking "what happens to all my DDB stuff if WotC goes 6e and DDB isn't able to follow." You may want to look through those threads and see where DDB spoxpeople speak up. DDB plans to go forward with DDB. Obviously that's easier for them if their work is engaged with whatever edition WotC is presently supporting, but DDB has not right to assert that claim. If you don't want a community response and want a staff response, you might want to bounce a few forums up to where customer service staff engage more frequently.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yeah I just think the confirmation of WotC's own in house digital tools kind of changes the conversation, or at least makes it relevant to reiterate. And in all fairness, we don't know what those digital tools are. DDB may actually be a big part of that project as well. It's possible that there's nothing but good news and big surprises on the horizon. But my point is that we don't know, and the usual vagueness doesn't help to calm any of my fears. I know they don't have any obligation to mitigate my individual feelings, but I also don't have any obligation to continue to invest in this platform. I would like to, but in order for that to happen, I need more information. If it can't be helped, so be it, but this is just me giving them every chance to win back my confidence. If it isn't brought up, it can't be addressed. I assume I'm not the only one with these concerns, but maybe I am. As I said before, the best case scenario for me is that I'm worked up over nothing.