Hello! I've been considering a lich as my BBEG, but I'm realizing how high leveled my characters have to be. Roughly how long do you think it takes to get to a high enough level to take on a lich? Outside it's lair I think, although it's still pretty buff.
It takes as long as you want it to take. You can start from level 1 and never actually level up. Or you could use Milestone leveling and skip levels. Or you could simply start at a higher level.
Yeah, from what I've seen it really depends on 2 main factors: Player attention span, and Leveling method.
Leveling Method: With milestone, its really anyone's guess to how long it will take since levels are decided by when the DM says "This is an appropriate time to level" The last campain I DMed went from 1-20 using milestone in about 2 years irl time. With experience, its a little more regular (and slower as I've seen) as monsters have a set XP amount. I'm currently a player in a game that has used XP solely from combat encounters and we have gone from 1-15(currently) in about 2.5 years
Player Attention Span: This is really gonna impact time just as much as leveling method. If your players are all friends and use DnD as a way to hang out, play around, catch up from the week, and just joke around in general, its going to take a little while to get through some stuff (as is the case with the games I'm a part of). But if your group has the Laser Focus of like a live stream DnD campaign where the WHOLE time they are in character and fully engaged 100% all the time, then the time will be shorter
tl;dr: Too many variables to really answer correctly lol
A campaign's lenght depend on a number of factors, such as the play frequency, sessions duration, level start & cap, leveling method and frequency etc..
I've run all sort of campaigns from short to long, some capping a level 5 others all the way to 20, some once a month, other once a week or biweekly some with 3 hours sessions, other with 12!
If you want a campaign to feature a lich, but don't plan on running a long level 1-20 campaign, you could already start at higher level.
Keep in mind that baddies, especially baddies without minions, get walloped by PCs due to the action economy. If you have a group of 5 level 10 characters, your lich will have to deal with up to 10 attacks per round of combat - and that doesn't even take into account bonus actions. A lich's legendary actions help mitigate that, but ultimately a single BBEG will be defending more than he'll be attacking because he's outnumbered. This means that your players can take on higher CR monsters than you might expect.
A good indicator of how hard a fight will be is less CR and more the average damage output a monster has per turn. If your party can't tank at least 2 rounds, then it's out of their league until they level up more. Most fights last about 3 rounds, and boss battles are often longer. Magic items that buff, give temp HP, heal, or deal extra damage can also wildly affect a lower level party's survivability against a legendary creature. It's really up to how you plan to run it.
How big is the party? A party of 6 can take it on at much, much lower level than a party of two. Since your adventure should be adapted to their numbers, that translates to the larger party hitting the threshold sooner than the smaller one. Due to action economy, this is actually quote a large difference. The other problem us optimisation. A party optimised for combat with tactics will cope sooner than a bunch of Bards who have all trued to be the party Face.
So, how big is the party?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Does the lich have a mini boss that works for him? Maybe the Party deal with that levels 1-5. They hear rumors about the lich, but the focus is on the mini boss. Wrap up some of the story lines and player-centric things (though not all of it), so that the players feel like they've told a story with a satisfying conclusion. After they defeat the mini boss, the group can then decide if they want to continue with the open threads or move on to something else.
If my main inspiration for the campaign was for the PCs to fight a lich, I might start it like 2-3 levels before they're ready to fight the lich. If the main thing you're excited to happen isn't going to happen until like a year from now, you may very likely burn out before you get there.
Build your campaign around the thing you're excited about. Don't attempt to do a 1-20 campaign if you're not excited about stuff you want to showcase throughout all tiers of play. You don't want to spend months on filler and your players don't either.
All of these are good points, but the best advice I can give is to know your players. Play sessions with them for a while to get to know their skill level. I'm in a party with three players who know the game well (myself included) and four who were relatively new to D&D before our first campaign together (the one we're currently in). However, their ability to handle high level threats and play their characters extremely well came fast, and soon our DM had to upgrade our bosses so we were evenly matched. The DM's role is always to provide fun play for the players, and to challenge them, not kill them. Basically, you want your players at a level so that they won't completely destroy the lich, but also where it won't decimate them. For some parties, that may be level 10. Some 15, but rarely 20 I would think. It's just such an overpowered level for some of the abilities you get (not wrongly so, but..) and a lich even in it's lair would probably crumple. Also, how many players you have and what they are playing matters a ton. If you have a cleric, a paladin, a warlock, a barbarian, or something like that, well then that party is probably going to destroy a lich, maybe even at level 10. Know what they are playing, know their strengths and weaknesses, and know how to use, but not abuse them. As @scatterbraind mentioned, it seems that by the way you phrased the question you're excited about this lich encounter and want to get to it fast. There are two ways I can see it, either you have a campaign somewhat planned out and you have a vague idea of a lich as BBEG, or you don't know much about the campaing but you're super excited for the Lich. If the first, take your time, get to know them, have fun with the campaign and let them guide the story. Who knows? you may come up with something better than you originally had. However, if the second, I recommend a few weeks of sessions, a month or two to still get to know the players, but then try to introduce them to the lich storyline pretty quick. If you know this party and have a good idea of how they would handle a lich, in the first example I would say start at level 3. The players have powers, but most haven't come online fully yet. If the second example, maybe start at level 5 or 7. That way level 10 is within reach, and 15 can be made if absolutely necessary. A Lich is big and scary, but it's a spellcaster. it will crumple against high damage dealers. Minions and lair actions will be your best friends. And if it finally comes to D-Day and you think "Oh no! This will be too hard!" or "Oh no! This will be too easy!" then change it. This isn't cheating. You can max the health and throw in a death knight if you think it's too easy, and lower the health and maybe only 7th level spells if it looks too hard. You are the DM. The players guide the story, but it's still your game
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Hello! I've been considering a lich as my BBEG, but I'm realizing how high leveled my characters have to be. Roughly how long do you think it takes to get to a high enough level to take on a lich? Outside it's lair I think, although it's still pretty buff.
Despair!
It takes as long as you want it to take. You can start from level 1 and never actually level up. Or you could use Milestone leveling and skip levels. Or you could simply start at a higher level.
Choose what matters to you and build around that.
Yeah, from what I've seen it really depends on 2 main factors: Player attention span, and Leveling method.
Leveling Method: With milestone, its really anyone's guess to how long it will take since levels are decided by when the DM says "This is an appropriate time to level" The last campain I DMed went from 1-20 using milestone in about 2 years irl time. With experience, its a little more regular (and slower as I've seen) as monsters have a set XP amount. I'm currently a player in a game that has used XP solely from combat encounters and we have gone from 1-15(currently) in about 2.5 years
Player Attention Span: This is really gonna impact time just as much as leveling method. If your players are all friends and use DnD as a way to hang out, play around, catch up from the week, and just joke around in general, its going to take a little while to get through some stuff (as is the case with the games I'm a part of). But if your group has the Laser Focus of like a live stream DnD campaign where the WHOLE time they are in character and fully engaged 100% all the time, then the time will be shorter
tl;dr: Too many variables to really answer correctly lol
A campaign's lenght depend on a number of factors, such as the play frequency, sessions duration, level start & cap, leveling method and frequency etc..
I've run all sort of campaigns from short to long, some capping a level 5 others all the way to 20, some once a month, other once a week or biweekly some with 3 hours sessions, other with 12!
If you want a campaign to feature a lich, but don't plan on running a long level 1-20 campaign, you could already start at higher level.
Keep in mind that baddies, especially baddies without minions, get walloped by PCs due to the action economy. If you have a group of 5 level 10 characters, your lich will have to deal with up to 10 attacks per round of combat - and that doesn't even take into account bonus actions. A lich's legendary actions help mitigate that, but ultimately a single BBEG will be defending more than he'll be attacking because he's outnumbered. This means that your players can take on higher CR monsters than you might expect.
A good indicator of how hard a fight will be is less CR and more the average damage output a monster has per turn. If your party can't tank at least 2 rounds, then it's out of their league until they level up more. Most fights last about 3 rounds, and boss battles are often longer. Magic items that buff, give temp HP, heal, or deal extra damage can also wildly affect a lower level party's survivability against a legendary creature. It's really up to how you plan to run it.
How big is the party? A party of 6 can take it on at much, much lower level than a party of two. Since your adventure should be adapted to their numbers, that translates to the larger party hitting the threshold sooner than the smaller one. Due to action economy, this is actually quote a large difference. The other problem us optimisation. A party optimised for combat with tactics will cope sooner than a bunch of Bards who have all trued to be the party Face.
So, how big is the party?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Does the lich have a mini boss that works for him? Maybe the Party deal with that levels 1-5. They hear rumors about the lich, but the focus is on the mini boss. Wrap up some of the story lines and player-centric things (though not all of it), so that the players feel like they've told a story with a satisfying conclusion. After they defeat the mini boss, the group can then decide if they want to continue with the open threads or move on to something else.
If my main inspiration for the campaign was for the PCs to fight a lich, I might start it like 2-3 levels before they're ready to fight the lich. If the main thing you're excited to happen isn't going to happen until like a year from now, you may very likely burn out before you get there.
Build your campaign around the thing you're excited about. Don't attempt to do a 1-20 campaign if you're not excited about stuff you want to showcase throughout all tiers of play. You don't want to spend months on filler and your players don't either.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
All of these are good points, but the best advice I can give is to know your players. Play sessions with them for a while to get to know their skill level. I'm in a party with three players who know the game well (myself included) and four who were relatively new to D&D before our first campaign together (the one we're currently in). However, their ability to handle high level threats and play their characters extremely well came fast, and soon our DM had to upgrade our bosses so we were evenly matched. The DM's role is always to provide fun play for the players, and to challenge them, not kill them. Basically, you want your players at a level so that they won't completely destroy the lich, but also where it won't decimate them. For some parties, that may be level 10. Some 15, but rarely 20 I would think. It's just such an overpowered level for some of the abilities you get (not wrongly so, but..) and a lich even in it's lair would probably crumple. Also, how many players you have and what they are playing matters a ton. If you have a cleric, a paladin, a warlock, a barbarian, or something like that, well then that party is probably going to destroy a lich, maybe even at level 10. Know what they are playing, know their strengths and weaknesses, and know how to use, but not abuse them. As @scatterbraind mentioned, it seems that by the way you phrased the question you're excited about this lich encounter and want to get to it fast. There are two ways I can see it, either you have a campaign somewhat planned out and you have a vague idea of a lich as BBEG, or you don't know much about the campaing but you're super excited for the Lich. If the first, take your time, get to know them, have fun with the campaign and let them guide the story. Who knows? you may come up with something better than you originally had. However, if the second, I recommend a few weeks of sessions, a month or two to still get to know the players, but then try to introduce them to the lich storyline pretty quick. If you know this party and have a good idea of how they would handle a lich, in the first example I would say start at level 3. The players have powers, but most haven't come online fully yet. If the second example, maybe start at level 5 or 7. That way level 10 is within reach, and 15 can be made if absolutely necessary. A Lich is big and scary, but it's a spellcaster. it will crumple against high damage dealers. Minions and lair actions will be your best friends. And if it finally comes to D-Day and you think "Oh no! This will be too hard!" or "Oh no! This will be too easy!" then change it. This isn't cheating. You can max the health and throw in a death knight if you think it's too easy, and lower the health and maybe only 7th level spells if it looks too hard. You are the DM. The players guide the story, but it's still your game
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